I don't see any scout in the build. if you only attempt to scout with the ovie, that's usually not enough imho

another issue is the fragility of the build. you go all-in build, any loss (ovie to marine, drone to probe etc) extends the gap to mutas - which lessens the strength of the build

if you forsake the scouting to get mutas faster, you miss your chance on switching on time in case his build is a direct counter

and yes, a chance of getting scouted is high, and the defenses are low.

TrogdorBurninate

United States104 Posts

June 11 2010 22:30 GMT

#22

On June 12 2010 06:47 DGMavn wrote:

Show nested quote +

A good drone scout might tell you that there's a proxy, but not what kind it is (unless you're telling me that your scout drone scouts ALL of Desert Oasis before it makes its way into the base).

A good drone scout will check the typical spots on its way to the toss base, such as all the little crevasse around the natural and a quick check of the gold expo and tower. This is why I like to send a fairly early drone like the 11/10 drone so that by the time I get done cheese checking the drone gets to the base at a normal time as though I send a 14 drone to scout.

Hider

Denmark9392 Posts

June 12 2010 16:49 GMT

#23

Im not a fan of 1-base muta. Mutas are very gas heavy so you need 2 bases for the gas. The terran player can quickly scout you and get like pump like 10 marines out, which should be able to hold your mutas until thors/MTs get out.

TeXasLaWDoG

United States33 Posts

June 20 2010 04:50 GMT

#24

That build is not efficient...try this

10 extractor
9 overlord
12 pool
14 Queen
4 lings (+2 lings extractor trick)
19 overlord
Lair when queen finishes + ling speed
+4 drones
Hidden Spire and another extractor when lair finish
at 500 gas pull all drones off gas
make 5 mutalisk and attack with all your lings and harrass with 5 mutas
while doing this make 2 expansion and from there pump drones and make a Roach hydra and infestor army.

reason you need only 5 mutalisk is because it takes 5 shots from a mutalisk to kill a Worker of any race so you can just attack move one shot workers...most of the time 5 mutalisk are started at about 7 minutes and in combination with all your lings should be enough army to contain the opponent while you expand 2 times, the second expansion is pure gas, and you can get a pretty nice roach/hydra and infestor army by 15 minutes game time to win, and when you attack expand again...pretty straight foreward, make sure you nydus when you need to as well and gg

GreatestThreat

United States631 Posts

June 20 2010 06:32 GMT

#25

On June 20 2010 13:50 TeXasLaWDoG wrote:
That build is not efficient...try this

10 extractor
9 overlord
12 pool
14 Queen
4 lings (+2 lings extractor trick)
19 overlord
Lair when queen finishes + ling speed
+4 drones
Hidden Spire and another extractor when lair finish
at 500 gas pull all drones off gas
make 5 mutalisk and attack with all your lings and harrass with 5 mutas
while doing this make 2 expansion and from there pump drones and make a Roach hydra and infestor army.

reason you need only 5 mutalisk is because it takes 5 shots from a mutalisk to kill a Worker of any race so you can just attack move one shot workers...most of the time 5 mutalisk are started at about 7 minutes and in combination with all your lings should be enough army to contain the opponent while you expand 2 times, the second expansion is pure gas, and you can get a pretty nice roach/hydra and infestor army by 15 minutes game time to win, and when you attack expand again...pretty straight foreward, make sure you nydus when you need to as well and gg

I'm always extremely skeptical of any strategy that is so confident in its time tables and claims to be "pretty straight forward", offering no variations based on possible responses by your opponent.

No plan survives first contact with the enemy.

EnderCN

United States499 Posts

June 20 2010 14:17 GMT

#26

You are either going to die half the time to rushes/harasses or have to modify your build at least half the time in which case the BO itself is just suspect. I don't think you will stick with this build very long or you are only going to use it in very specialized situations at least.

Madkipz

Norway1643 Posts

June 20 2010 15:41 GMT

#27

mutalisks will pop at around the 7 minute mark, you will have 4 at once and loose to anything that is not a 2 port banshee

sorry man but not only is it less efficient than sens regular muta build but it doesnt get there before the thors start dropping, therefore defeating any purpose of skipping the queen.

Prdors

United States67 Posts

June 20 2010 16:50 GMT

#28

I feel like if you got scouted you would get rushed and die. Also a lot of people D up their mineral lines pretty quick against zerg which would spell an instant disaster for this. Also marines or stalkers would be able to hold against a small number of mutas.

phexac

United States186 Posts

June 20 2010 17:08 GMT

#29

Sacrificing everything just so you can try to kill your opponent with the monster power of 4-5 muta? gl with that...

Ouga

Finland645 Posts

June 22 2010 03:26 GMT

#30

Norm. 9scout just destroys this. Decent player definately reacts to queenlessness. Not to mention you actually don't gather any extra gas with this, so the amount of mutas will be lower than with slower build with queen.

Obviously this may work well vs bad players who don't scout. But hey, anything works vs ppl who don't scout. Question being how often would queenless 1base muta be better than one with queen? Way too rarely.

dignity

Canada908 Posts

June 22 2010 03:41 GMT

#31

As much as I appreciate ingenuity, I think this build would not be at all practical.The time it takes to pull off such a tactic is simply too long and unless the opposing player is also doing a complete passive build, any attack on you would end the game. Even if the opposing player was to go into full passivity, he would also be teching up along with you, and so he would have his own tech to respond to your early mutalisks. Also, if your attack fails, you would be so set back you would essentially lose.

strum

United States8 Posts

June 23 2010 16:48 GMT

#32

I've been practicing a similar build that gets 6 mutas at about 5:15
I can usually put down a spine or two while the spire is growing without delaying any mutas, otherwise i rely on the queen for defense and i can always throw down some zerglings when im in need.
im a really bad player (Silver) in general but its won me a few games. For whatever its worth, ive only been able to try it live about 4 or 5 times before the beta closed.

12 pool
11 Gas
13 ol
13 queen
12 Gas
18 lair
22 spire
drones to 26

Zoltan

United States656 Posts

June 23 2010 16:55 GMT

#33

can i go ahead and say that mutas are pretty bad vs terran right now? I think your inital BO is pretty frail and will fold to any early agression (dosent matter if its reapers, marines, or zelots, his build will lose to it the way it is. No queen is suicide). If i scout a spire, thats enough time for me to get turrets up, too. While i'm sure you will get wins doing this on DO in silver league, dont try this at the higher levels. You need to be much more reactive at high level play, instead of being pro-active with a build order like this.

deth2munkies

United States4051 Posts

June 23 2010 17:05 GMT

#34

I had someone do this to me on Desert Oasis. I happened to go Early Phoenixes, however, so I had 2 phoenixes in his base right as his first 4 mutas popped. IIRC, he was able to survive the phoenix harass and my first counter-push, then we both took our thirds and I eventually steamrolled him with Colossus/Stalker/Sentry.

So yeah, it works when there's no early pressure on huge maps, but that's about it. If I'd done a Zealot push, he'd be dead.

Wolf

Korea (South)3290 Posts

June 23 2010 17:09 GMT

#35

Way too risky. This build could be considered cheese, at best. Any early pressure and you're done for. And a good player will scout and know this.

eXigent.

Canada2419 Posts

June 23 2010 17:48 GMT

#36

On June 12 2010 04:07 TrogdorBurninate wrote:
Keep in mind those lings are coming out under the same timing as 14gas/13pool in to speedling. I'm simply using the minerals and gas for the lair rather than the speed upgrade and a queen. Yes, I understand the defensive (or lack there of) situation that this sets up. But the scout would get chased out/die just like any other scout, as which point I obviously delay the lair until the scout was gone.

This is wrong information. How can you guarantee that you will chase his scout out or kill it? Any decent terran will keep his SCV off of your creep while moving it around your base. You do not have the speed to kill it before he realizes you are not making a queen. Most times, its the queen that kills the scv, so not seeing a queen come out is already putting the terran in a very decent spot.

So, if you delay the lair until the scout dies, then whats the point in doing the build? You are delaying the lair long enough that you could of just made the queen, and did another form of muta harass that puts you in a better early game situation.

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