I've been struggling alot against Terran players who just turtle in with seige tanks and turrets and only move out when they're comfortable with their army composition. They would use vikings to control the air and siege tanks to control the ground along with thors and MMM. They then slowly expand by leap frogging their army. How do you deal with a turtle terran that plays so safe that he would counter everything you throw at him?

Here's a recent between me and my friend. I kind of made a stupid mistake at the end. Even if I didn't drop ontop of his army I would've still lost that battle. I tested it out on a custom user map, if my roaches were under his army and I send in my hydras and zerglings, I would still lose.

http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=127450#disc

FC.Strike

United States621 Posts

May 31 2010 21:52 GMT

That's strange, for some reason GR.org isn't letting me download the replay. I'll review it later.

As for ZvT itself, the matchup these days seems to focus around mutas, roaches, banelings, speedlings, and drops (not in any particular order).

Some pros like Sen opt to open Speedlings and Mutalisks for the early map control and transition into roaches to take care of the natural counter to mutas (thors and marines)/

Others like Artosis and Idra opt to start out with roaches and then do a crazy tech switch into mutalisks where they'll get like 8+ Mutas out of nowhere using the gas they've saved up.

Still others like Dimaga enjoy going the classic speedling into mutalisks into banelings (which is my favorite build).

The last style I can think of is players like Maka who start out with roaches to hold down the early game and move into dropped banelings to take out the bio balls while the roaches and speedlings mop up the tanks.

Of course, this is all gross oversimplification and there are a lot of subtleties to the pros' play that I'm obviously not conveying in single sentences. Addressing your question directly, you should really just be expanding versus a turtling terran (although not recklessly expanding, only when you feel you could defend those expansions). I like to transition to our ultimate tech (broodlords) once I have three mining bases and a fourth or fifth gas only base.

Cheesy_George

United States6 Posts

May 31 2010 21:59 GMT

work on just spending your minerals, during your first battle you had 3000 unspent minerals, thats a fuck ton of lings that could have been in that battle, granted they wouldn't have done much but at least its something. Second idle units that could be doing something is a bad thing, control the xelnaga watch towers, take out the rocks for your high yield, take out his back door (i'm more saying to do this earlier because you did this). Controlling the xelnagas is actually a huge deal if you have that you don't have to worry about your army being away attacking rocks. it's also good to realize that your opponent left you the whole map to your disposal with only one scan on your natural. Abuse the shit out of this remember that 3000 minerals from before, thats easily 2 more fully saturated expansions, and since you should control the xelnagas those expansions are easier to defend. and at this point just throw guys at him he will run out of minerals way faster than you and if you can keep his army down he wont be able to move out without losing all his army

Pakje

Belgium288 Posts

May 31 2010 22:10 GMT

I feel your pain.

Look at this replay. I managed to snipe his main and deny his third, but i still can't break his ball -_-.

I know i shouldn't let my macro slip and switch to BL's but still

kcdc

United States2311 Posts

May 31 2010 22:19 GMT

I don't play Z and I hear that ZvT has become very difficult as T's have moved toward mech play with the tank buffs, but in general, when you see defensive play, you should take that as a cue to expand. Tanks are strong but immobile. Don't try to deny his natural; take a gold expo and out macro-him.

Latham

9560 Posts

May 31 2010 22:42 GMT

On June 01 2010 06:52 FC.Strike wrote:
That's strange, for some reason GR.org isn't letting me download the replay. I'll review it later.

As for ZvT itself, the matchup these days seems to focus around mutas, roaches, banelings, speedlings, and drops (not in any particular order).

Some pros like Sen opt to open Speedlings and Mutalisks for the early map control and transition into roaches to take care of the natural counter to mutas (thors and marines)/

Others like Artosis and Idra opt to start out with roaches and then do a crazy tech switch into mutalisks where they'll get like 8+ Mutas out of nowhere using the gas they've saved up.

Still others like Dimaga enjoy going the classic speedling into mutalisks into banelings (which is my favorite build).

The last style I can think of is players like Maka who start out with roaches to hold down the early game and move into dropped banelings to take out the bio balls while the roaches and speedlings mop up the tanks.

Of course, this is all gross oversimplification and there are a lot of subtleties to the pros' play that I'm obviously not conveying in single sentences. Addressing your question directly, you should really just be expanding versus a turtling terran (although not recklessly expanding, only when you feel you could defend those expansions). I like to transition to our ultimate tech (broodlords) once I have three mining bases and a fourth or fifth gas only base.

This sums it up pretty well. Just change Maka (who is a T player) to Cool or the-fruit-merchant.

Late game, corruptors and broodlords. You might want some infestors too for fungal against the inevitable viking hordes.
Exploit their immobility with drops and nyduses and try to kill expands or at least out expand him.
Ultralisks do fairly average, but you might want to experiment with frenzy and ultras just for kicks.

Archduke

United States119 Posts

May 31 2010 23:19 GMT

I'm one of the aforementioned turtling Terran players, and I'll tell you what ruins my day: Roach surprise attacks -- both with burrow and drops.

Against Zerg, I'm waiting until I have a critical mass of Siege Tanks, and enough Hellions to keep them safe. I suppose if I were smart, I'd have a handful of Ravens around to prevent the burrow attacks. That being said, if Roaches can get into my Siege Tanks' dead zones, that's gg.

forgotten0ne

United States951 Posts

May 31 2010 23:38 GMT

Nydus Nydus Nydus, FREAKING NYDUS. Seriously, I am now 15/15 wins on my last ZvT top diamond ladder. Drops are great, but Nydus are even better. And this "they spot the worm" is crap. Using my Ovies, I have yet to not find a place to pop my worm unspotted. 14 zerglings will decimate an scv line. And mineralsnipe is extremely effective, because guess what, they can only pump 1 scv at a time.

Also remember the followup. There army is protecting their outer base. So when they move their army away to defend the nydus, attack their front.

If they spot your first worm, pop another on the opposite side or different base. Their only real protection is getting a ton of turrets (waste of minerals with a roach counter) or spread their supplies (can someone say muta snipe?).

Really it all comes down to realizing you're zerg. Your stength lies in multitasking to split up their army, or punish them for not doing so.

Melt

Switzerland281 Posts

May 31 2010 23:57 GMT

EXPAND

stickman.hqt

United States47 Posts

June 01 2010 18:52 GMT

#10

Use the map control he hands to you. Use nydus, drops, or muta to force him to stay in his base. Then you max out way before he does. Burrow is also great to make them soak up some gas. Overall you want to keep them paranoid till they have to make a move by expanding and capitalize on that move. Odds are you will be way ahead in econ when he attempts his first push out.

Also micro'd mutas are still as sick as before. Thors can't really handle mutas until they get 3 of them out for volleys. And you can still out micro marines. The new turrets though are a pain, so combining muta harass with small drops / nydus is a way to overrun that.

JreL209

United States78 Posts

June 01 2010 19:03 GMT

#11

Super expand and go into broodlords, same concept with SC1, if he's turtling-in with one base, just expand twice, take a gold imo. And just keep teching up to mutas/broodlords. Even if he builds a shit load of turrets, mutas are so mobile you can still harass his outter base.

Or go for drops, drops rape terran now since we don't have erradiate, oh how I miss those.

You're welcome!

KaiserJohan

Sweden1808 Posts

June 01 2010 19:32 GMT

#12

Problems are vikings hardcounters broods like nothing else in the game hardcounters something. I really don't buy that you can nydus into his base because they'll always have full visiblity of their base, atleast the T's i've played against. Your best bet would be doomdrop, but he does have turrets and can be ready for it. He can afford minerals on turrets because his army can be half your size and sitll faceroll you if you try to attack, meanwhile he'll slowly grab expo after expo and getting more upgrades/units. Sure you may have 5 expos andhe 3, but you cant saturate them all and still think you have a chance vs his army.