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Just wondering what the TL community thinks of this theory of mine.
I was discussing this on the blizzard forums, but no1 over there seems to have the mental capacity to provide legitimate feedback.
The discussion was mostly around how Corruptors are not viable counters against anything except Carriers, CattleBruisers and Collossus.
This is mostly the direct copy/paste of my post from there. So what do you guys think? does my theory hae merit? I'm a top gold player, and am new to the starcraft universe.
Corruptors mixed with Muta's is an excellent counter to void rays and vikings. let me tell you why i believe this.
Corruptors do more damage than muta's, however they're armored, so they also take more damage from vikings and Void Rays.
So this is why you use them with muta's, corruptors outrange your muta's, so your muta's can take most of the hits up front, and can be used as a meat shield, while your corruptors sit in the back doing more damage, this forces terran/protoss to micro their vikings/void rays, and if they don't micro properly then you win.
Most of the time however I do generally get a few corruptors, just in-case, and if they're going collossi.
Thats just how i use corruptors most of the time anyway.
This isn't to say that only muta's won't work against Vikings/Void Rays, but i feel the corruptors definately bring some good damage to the fight, and leave you the option to move onto brood lords later on.
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Mutas shouldn't be used as a meat shield. They have 0 armor and only 120 HP. If someones going air, just use hydralisks. And then you could use roaches as your meat shield. Vikings can't hit hydralisks unless they land, and they're not that strong when on the ground. Unless you're planning to attack with air, Hydra will work.
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I'd rather make more muta then corruptors vs vikings, i realize broodlords later on but if you don't have that tech what will you do in the mean time if he tech switches to ground. In ZvP what the hell is going on that he has so many void rays, also just prefer mass hydra if they get VR's cost effective and dont have to deal with collossus
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Oh, I know muta's aren't a good meat shield obviously, but it seems people feel muta's are just an all round good choice for Vikings and Void Rays, yes, some hydra's on the ground is good too.
I just feel 4-5 corruptors in the back helps a great deal too, while the muta's take damage and deal damage up front, as they do take less damage from these units than corruptors do.
I do hate using ground units to counter air, it's something i have to work on myself, the lack of mobility of ground compared to the air units frustrates me :p
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considering how well mutas do against vikings, there's no reason to make any corruptors.
i don't play zerg that often but i don't see how adding in corruptors would help at all against vikings.
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corruptoers and mutas cost about the same, a force of 6 mutas and 6 corrupters will do worse than a group of 12 corrupters
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Corrupter DPS is barely better than a mutalisk, if not taking bounce damage into account. Corrupters also cost 50 more minerals than a mutalisk would, but because of the armor type, does worse than mutas would in terms of longevity. Because a corrupter barely contributes to the DPS, it would not make sense to make a mixed force of the two, because they don't complement each other well.
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void rays do not do extra damage against armor any more, when I mouse over them i don't see a second damage modifier, all i see is 5 damage a tick at no charge.
edit, i think blizzard is not showing the +armor damage on the unit info in the center, but the +damage to armored type still there.
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On May 31 2010 10:34 Gorgazm wrote:
Just wondering what the TL community thinks of this theory of mine.
I was discussing this on the blizzard forums, but no1 over there seems to have the mental capacity to provide legitimate feedback.
The discussion was mostly around how Corruptors are not viable counters against anything except Carriers, CattleBruisers and Collossus.
This is mostly the direct copy/paste of my post from there. So what do you guys think? does my theory hae merit? I'm a top gold player, and am new to the starcraft universe.
Corruptors mixed with Muta's is an excellent counter to void rays and vikings. let me tell you why i believe this.
Corruptors do more damage than muta's, however they're armored, so they also take more damage from vikings and Void Rays.
So this is why you use them with muta's, corruptors outrange your muta's, so your muta's can take most of the hits up front, and can be used as a meat shield, while your corruptors sit in the back doing more damage, this forces terran/protoss to micro their vikings/void rays, and if they don't micro properly then you win.
Most of the time however I do generally get a few corruptors, just in-case, and if they're going collossi.
Thats just how i use corruptors most of the time anyway.
This isn't to say that only muta's won't work against Vikings/Void Rays, but i feel the corruptors definately bring some good damage to the fight, and leave you the option to move onto brood lords later on.
Corruptors against Vikings and Void Rays is a complete waste since Mutalisks already beat either one and they can also hit ground.
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Corruptors do have the corruption ability though. I think it's worth it to get a few to go with your mutas and you'll already have them if you need to get a few BLs later since you can morph them in at the position you need them rather than waiting for them to arrive from your base.
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On May 31 2010 11:02 Gorgazm wrote:
Oh, I know muta's aren't a good meat shield obviously, but it seems people feel muta's are just an all round good choice for Vikings and Void Rays, yes, some hydra's on the ground is good too.
I just feel 4-5 corruptors in the back helps a great deal too, while the muta's take damage and deal damage up front, as they do take less damage from these units than corruptors do.
I do hate using ground units to counter air, it's something i have to work on myself, the lack of mobility of ground compared to the air units frustrates me :p
Agreed. Creep Highway FTW. I don't think Corrupters are a good choice unless they're heavily massed. Vikings own Mutas, Voids own Corrupters. There isn't really a choice other than to go ground. You can split your army and flank if you have a large enough army.
@Above
Yeah, Corruption helps a great deal on massive units. I'd use corruption on the voids. You'd be better off throwing mind controls from an infestor though. They cost the same, right? Too lazy to check.
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Mutalisk DPS is actually higher than that of Corruptors
Mutas are (9+3+1)/1.52 = 9.21
Corruptors are 14/1.9 = 7.36 (*1.2 corruption) = 8.83
Even if everything is corrupted, Mutas still have greater DPS.
Additionally, Mutas have slightly less taking prowess against Vikings and Void Rays.
Against Vikings;
Mutas are 120/10 = 12
Corruptors are 200/(10+4-2)=16
Void Rays (charged):
Mutas are 120/10 = 12
Corruptors are 200/(25-2)=8.69
Thus, Mutas are far superior to Corruptors against Void Rays, and about on-par against Vikings.
Note that all this changes to favor Corruptors if the enemy gets armor upgrades: +0/+1 decreases Muta damage output to (8+2+0)/1.52 = 6.57, whereas Corruptors are 13/1.9 = 6.8 (* 1.2 corruption) = 8.22. On the other hand, since Vikings/Void Rays have no base armor and Air Armor is so far up the tech tree, this is rarely an issue.
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Thanks all for the feedback. as onionchowder has stated, it does seem muta's are a better choice for dps.
I suppose Muta's are the all round better choice for obvious reasons, and it does appear that corruptors really don't have a place unless it's against collossi, BC's or Carriers, or if you want brood lords.
Having said that, i don't think it hurts if you can afford it, to have 4-5 corruptors along side your muta's just to help out, if you're planning on going brood lords.
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Just so everyone knows Corruptors beat vikings in equal numbers, especially when you throw in corruption ability. and if you have some infestors too, you definitely dominate, it's a combo most people don't use but i've been throwing some up in my end game army. Frenzy = 25% more damage corruption = 20% more damage together = 50% more damage.
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I never understood why everyone thinks mutas are such a great counter to vikings. In equal numbers, the vikings will win easily, and vikings cost less gas too. The only reason mutas tend to win is because zerg players like to build huge numbers of them.
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On May 31 2010 11:26 rei wrote:
void rays do not do extra damage against armor any more, when I mouse over them i don't see a second damage modifier, all i see is 5 damage a tick at no charge.
edit, i think blizzard is not showing the +armor damage on the unit info in the center, but the +damage to armored type still there.
Void rays do bonus dmg to armor only on the 3rd charge state; its not really shown, but its pretty obvious if you just do some tests on a custom map or w/e. (also an explanation on liquipedia)
--little bit off topic, just wanted to clarify 
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On May 31 2010 15:19 Ichabod wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 11:26 rei wrote:
void rays do not do extra damage against armor any more, when I mouse over them i don't see a second damage modifier, all i see is 5 damage a tick at no charge.
edit, i think blizzard is not showing the +armor damage on the unit info in the center, but the +damage to armored type still there. Void rays do bonus dmg to armor only on the 3rd charge state; its not really shown, but its pretty obvious if you just do some tests on a custom map or w/e. (also an explanation on liquipedia) --little bit off topic, just wanted to clarify
Do you mean the second state?
i do believe a few patches ago they removed the fact it had 3 phases, it now only has 2, not sure exactly what they changed, but i think all they did was removed the middle one.
I know not important, just thought i should let you know though.
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Void Rays are a counter to Corruptors, but due to the charge mechanic, if the Corruptors have an overwhelming advantage in numbers, they'll take very little damage. Against toss Corruptors beat Phoenixes and Carriers cost efficiently, while mutas are advised against Void Rays as an air counter, but they will still lose if you don't have notably more gas to spend than the Protoss. They are better than Corruptors at both tanking fully charged Void Ray attacks(13 vs 9) and dealing damage to the Void Rays(8.5 dps vs 7.4 dps, unless the Void Rays have a shield upgrade to cut down bounce damage, but tosses very rarely research that one).
Vikings beat every other air unit cost effectively, so again you got to have gas advantage if you want to destroy a mass of them with your own air units. After the recent damage buff Corruptors are notably better vs Vikings compared to mutas and mixing both of them is not very effective, since the Corruptors are the ones that are better at tanking the Viking attacks(9x2 to kill compared to 7x2 for mutas), while Mutas are the ones dealing more dps(8.5 vs 7.4, until the Vikings get an armor upgrade) and they have different speeds, so your air force will be slower and you'll have to manually manage them not to spread out and get destroyed in 2 separate engagements. Mutas are a lot more versatile though, so if you can mass a sufficient number to overwhelm the Vikings they will serve you better afterwards, unless you have a greater spire and the resources to morph the Corruptors into Broodlords, then the Corruptors clearly become the better choice.
On May 31 2010 15:25 Gorgazm wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 15:19 Ichabod wrote:On May 31 2010 11:26 rei wrote:
void rays do not do extra damage against armor any more, when I mouse over them i don't see a second damage modifier, all i see is 5 damage a tick at no charge.
edit, i think blizzard is not showing the +armor damage on the unit info in the center, but the +damage to armored type still there. Void rays do bonus dmg to armor only on the 3rd charge state; its not really shown, but its pretty obvious if you just do some tests on a custom map or w/e. (also an explanation on liquipedia) --little bit off topic, just wanted to clarify Do you mean the second state? i do believe a few patches ago they removed the fact it had 3 phases, it now only has 2, not sure exactly what they changed, but i think all they did was removed the middle one. I know not important, just thought i should let you know though.
It still has 3 phases, it's just that the 1st and 2nd phase deal the same amount of damage, but it does make a difference in how it works - if it had only 2 stages as soon as you stop attacking before reaching the second stage you would have to charge up from scratch(even if it would have taken you just 1 more hit to fully charge), while currently if you have reached the second stage, you will have to do only half the amount of attacks to fully charge.
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I dont think Corruptors need to counter void raids all too hard, as they already counter every other protoss air unit including the collossus.
Blizzard clearly stated they want hydralisks to be a viable void ray counter, so thats the way to go.
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personally i use corruptors against void rays if it's late game. i probably have some hydras too but after i take out the rays i get 7 brood lords and it's gg. mutas just get wrecked by so much other stuff. i obviously have numbers on the voids and i'm usually going in with support but it's worked out well for me.
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EPT
