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Middling (~rank 50) Platinum random player here.
I was wondering if anyone had any insights as to where to take TvT's after it hits mid-game and one side decides to go mass vikings, tanks, and a small number of marauders/marines (usually both sides will be at 2 bases). Granted, I only see this match-up about 1 out of 9 games (since I play random), but I can't really think of a viable alternative to just massing your own vikings and tanks, with the winner being whoever can maintain air superiority (such that your tanks effectively out-range their tanks because of better sight).
Of course, this is an oversimplification to say that whoever maintains air superiority wins. And of course, positioning and proper scouting so that you're never caught in fights without your tanks seiged is very important, and failing to do so may cost you the game. Still though, it seems odd that there doesn't seem to be an actual reliable unit counter to this fairly simple composition. Any ideas?
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depends on map and what you consider critical mass. but again, huge amounts of tanks are going to be impossible to counter just like in sc1. But just like sc1, you're going to undermine their power with mobility.
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Thors are helpful especially since they changed the way splash works. Basically, if the person is relying on only a few tanks to prevent your push, then thors can power right thru them. If he's relying on A LOT of tanks, you can use thors as a meatshield as you move your own tanks forward and blast them. The thing about thors is they are so big that the splash doesn't work on them.
Either way you're going to want to have your own tanks.
The ultimate counter to tank/viking in the longrun is bc/raven. It's a lot heavier tech wise to get to, tho.
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On May 08 2010 01:52 shinosai wrote:
Thors are helpful especially since they changed the way splash works. Basically, if the person is relying on only a few tanks to prevent your push, then thors can power right thru them. If he's relying on A LOT of tanks, you can use thors as a meatshield as you move your own tanks forward and blast them. The thing about thors is they are so big that the splash doesn't work on them.
Either way you're going to want to have your own tanks.
The ultimate counter to tank/viking in the longrun is bc/raven. It's a lot heavier tech wise to get to, tho.
I'll have to give this a shot sometime. I forgot that they changed siege tank splash in the last patch It seems to me that a thor is a pretty expensive meat shield though, given that it can only absorb 6-7 hits total. Still though, I guess that's a lot better than having your entire MnM ball vaporized instantly. Maybe the thor decoy + stimmed M&M right into their tank line would work? The timing on that would have to be less than one siege tank firing cooldown cycle though to make it work...
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I agree with the BC/Raven move. Play Sc1 TvT while you get 3 bases, get scvs on gas ASAP at each base, seige up tanks at every base and cliff to make his push tough, macro BCs out, attack his vikings, if he runs the vikings, start chewing up tanks, force his vikings back into the fights.
Gas will be your limiting factor, get those scvs on it fast.
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yeah bc's would be nice but vikings counter them pretty well and unless you've got a zillion ravens to put down PDD's the ravens are going to get shot up too. So you'll need BC yamato and even then you'll only be able to kill one viking with each yamato...
It seems like viking/raven banshees or dropships would be way more effective and not as gas intensive.
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BCs get chewed up by vikings, particularly when taking into account their build-time and their cost. A guy (granted, low plat level) tried a BC switch against me and I chewed right through his BCs with my fleet of Vikings. He was far better off sticking to Vikings.
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I don't play terran, but if you spread a marauder army out don't they eat tanks? Plus with stim you could probably get them right up next to the tanks before very many marauders die.
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On May 08 2010 02:20 Southlight wrote:
BCs get chewed up by vikings, particularly when taking into account their build-time and their cost. A guy (granted, low plat level) tried a BC switch against me and I chewed right through his BCs with my fleet of Vikings. He was far better off sticking to Vikings.
Yeah I agree...once you get to 25+, Vikings can kill BC's in one volley. Obviously that's ALOT of Vikings, but if he's getting BC's, he's going to be tying up his starport for a long time with that 90s buildtime. Assuming you have the money, you are getting 4x Vikings per 1x BC build time.
You also can do some half-assed kiting with the 9-range too...a bit clunky with 25 units though haha. And it should go without saying that you are patrolling and watching the other expo airways while you mass the vikings to limit his cashflow.
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Making BCs against tanks + vikings is one of the worst moves you could make. Why would you respond to vikings by making a unit that gets countered by vikings?
Marauders hard-counter vikings, and they counter siege tanks as long as you don't run a clumped ball of marauders into 5+ sieged tanks like an idiot. If he's turtling with siege tanks everywhere, take the map, and then just outmacro him and have more vikings. If you have more bases than your opponent, viking + banshee will beat viking + tank, because you will have more vikings.
If he tries to move out and stop you from taking the map, you get into position, stim your marauders and move in while he's siegeing up and/or out of position with his tanks. At that point it comes down to who has better micro and better positioning.
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I had some guys go Banshee's... not as cheese but as a legitimate part of teh army. Use them to target the Tanks, they eat them up. One of em had a few marauders, good bit of vikings of his own, and worked up to Thor's. Seemed to be a really effective and safe build that involved only like 2 tanks. He got his natural way easy and chewed through my tanks with Banshee-chain targeting. I'd try this if you wanna break the "tank n turtle" cycle. Army is FAR more mobile.
edit: As above, Thor's will help with a smaller fleet of your own vikings. Great Back up for air units and tough enough to eat some tank rips.
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On May 08 2010 02:31 mav451 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2010 02:20 Southlight wrote:
BCs get chewed up by vikings, particularly when taking into account their build-time and their cost. A guy (granted, low plat level) tried a BC switch against me and I chewed right through his BCs with my fleet of Vikings. He was far better off sticking to Vikings. Yeah I agree...once you get to 25+, Vikings can kill BC's in one volley. Obviously that's ALOT of Vikings, but if he's getting BC's, he's going to be tying up his starport for a long time with that 90s buildtime. Assuming you have the money, you are getting 4x Vikings per 1x BC build time. You also can do some half-assed kiting with the 9-range too...a bit clunky with 25 units though haha. And it should go without saying that you are patrolling and watching the other expo airways while you mass the vikings to limit his cashflow.
A battlecruiser should almost never be able to attack a viking because of the speed/range issue.
As for the OP: You can try going mass air. Viking/banshe/ a few ravens for PDDs. Supplement that army with marauders and yiou can clean up any tanks that are left after the AtG battle.
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I love BCs in TvT and always work towards them. All the BC haters shall fall by my hand in T v T.
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Tanks have a major role in TVT you don't counter them you build them too....
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On May 08 2010 02:31 mav451 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2010 02:20 Southlight wrote:
BCs get chewed up by vikings, particularly when taking into account their build-time and their cost. A guy (granted, low plat level) tried a BC switch against me and I chewed right through his BCs with my fleet of Vikings. He was far better off sticking to Vikings. Yeah I agree...once you get to 25+, Vikings can kill BC's in one volley. Obviously that's ALOT of Vikings, but if he's getting BC's, he's going to be tying up his starport for a long time with that 90s buildtime. Assuming you have the money, you are getting 4x Vikings per 1x BC build time. You also can do some half-assed kiting with the 9-range too...a bit clunky with 25 units though haha. And it should go without saying that you are patrolling and watching the other expo airways while you mass the vikings to limit his cashflow.
A battlecruiser should almost never be able to attack a viking because of the speed/range issue.
As for the OP: You can try going mass air. Viking/banshe/ a few ravens for PDDs. Supplement that army with marauders and yiou can clean up any tanks that are left after the AtG battle.
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What most unexperienced people don't seem to realize is that BC+Vikings (with good positioning) > Viking only.
Imagine that.
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On May 08 2010 02:48 link0 wrote:
What most unexperienced people don't seem to realize is that BC+Vikings (with good positioning) > Viking only.
Imagine that.
Just based on numbers alone, I would imagine that vikings are cost-effective against BC's, and they out-range them considerably. Maybe I'm missing something here. Care to elaborate?
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1 viking should be able to beat an unlimited amount of bc, but the bc/viking mix is very good because bc are good at soaking damage while your own vikings are dealing a lot of damage.
Moreover BC with yamato don't have any real ground counter so I find that mix very powerfull at the latest stage of the game.
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Well, as it was said, small numbers of tanks you can push throught with thors and tanks/rauders.
Thors also help you against vikings.
But if hes going big numbers of tanks, his force isnt much mobile. I would try two options:
1. Outexpand him, since his force isnt much mobile. Try to have some defense(tanks/rauders/rines) available or close to each expo. If he tries to abandon his front line and push towards your expos, you have plenty of options. Either you can try to bust his front door, or you can defend with your own tanks and rauders. (since pushing only with mass viking / tanks isnt effective, he should lose more units with proper control).
The key idea of this is if he has big static force, you have to punish it by expanding. Unsieged tanks arent good in attack if he has nothing but vikings to support it.
2. Nuke him. Just hide few ghost academy somewhere on the map, where his vikings cant find it. Or do it at your base, if u r confident. Since nukes are pretty cheap and easy to make, try to nuke few spots at the same time, like his supply depots in his base, his expo and his tank line. He cannot defend everywhere. Since you can nuke at pretty high range, over the cliffs and so on, I am sure you will find some weak spots in his defense.
Never tried those options, because I usually harass my opponent early and mid game, so I have experienced different strategies and problems. But this is what I would do if I had experienced mass tanks and vikins as a problem.
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The problem with the guy that goes pure vikings in response to bcs/ravens is that he has completely given up control the ground. While you are kiting the bcs they are decimating your tank lines and clearing a path for marines and tanks to follow up.
Terran is very much a macro war, and if you make too much anti-ground or anti-air you are vulnerable to one or the other. BCs are really the ultimate unit in TvT, because they are good vs both thanks to yamato. They are, of course, a support unit, and not meant to be used to counter vikings.
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EPT
