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I just lost to a baneling bust because I generally wall with supply depots. I realize that the counter to baneling busts are better walls, but my question is how to do those.
The two go to strats I have are 3rax with addons or 1rax reactor factory.
Both of these strats get screwed up if I try to wall with 2 rax or rax/fact, because of the need for addons. Are you just supposed to forego the addons and wait until the banelings are dead? (or when you have an army whose composition can combat banelings)
Because even if I do manage to get the addons down, I now lose either mobility or production, since either i can't build from a structure, or I can't move out when i want to.
What do other terrans do?
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A few marauders on the ramp stop banelings cold.
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well i guess it sucks if you need those addons but you can usually lift and make them part of the wall. surround your choke with the rest of your depots and whatever else is part of your build like a command center, factory, engineering bay, barracks...
you can perfectly block the bottom of ramps with 2 barracks sized buildings too i believe. i should do this more, but don't really need to as if he does pump a crazier number of banelings your 1500hp single building wall will fall and stream in lings and stuff through a bigger hole then having to stop and go through 2 buildings at 400ish hp each.
tbh if you want to stop raging about baneling busts just stop playing real matches and practice on every map at every position so you get a better grasp of NOT FAILING to block...
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Yeah, a trend i have been noticing is blocking the bottom of the ramp, not being a terran fan myself i dont know exactly what it takes to block the bottom, but there must be a reason why so many people are doing it, plus if somone were to bring a ranged army (roaches) and attack the bottom buldings, your units on the ledge can usually get good positions to kill the army, and they cant hit back as they cant shoot up the cliff.
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Block them with barracks or a factory. The gas/mineral cost to get enough banelings to break that wall is not smart at all. Marauders in front of a standard wall work just as well because they soak up at least 6 banelings. Most zerg's don't make more than 5 banelings initially to break a depot wall so their surprise is foiled.
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is your name terran on sc2?
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Look at dimaga's games. He ends up facing up games with a proper wall. It's also kinda map specific at times.
Alternatively, I have seen bnet play where they have a 2 depot deep wall between 2 rax or raxfact + a bunker in the mix to further the wall. So build normally with depot wall first, and extend it deeper later.
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Depots at the bottom of the ramp.
Factory or Barracks at the top of the ramp, and put some Marauders on the ramp itself. This should stop blings, or at the very least make your opponent burn a lot of resources to get through your wall.
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hellion build does ok vs it if you go out and micro, also once you lift your rax after making the reactor, land it and make reapers in a bunker 8)
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Yep the trick is using 2-3 depot deep walls. That with marauders behind them, they might get the first depot down, but still have to go thru another one, and by that time the marauders own all the banelings.
If you want to get technical, I've seen people walling with engineer bays + rax's, and lift the rax to leave. That can be more beefy. but I still think 2-3 depots is the best method, I tell every terran I play with in random team to get that when going against ZZ.
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Using that many depots at your wall sounds like a recipe for getting supply blocked pretty hardcore. Just make your Factory at your wall, or 2rax it. Even leave a small area open that you block with a couple Marauders if you have to.
Super early Hellions are still the best thing against this strategy. Even on maps like Scrap Station, a half-together wall will hold with Hellions backing it up.
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On April 09 2010 13:55 QibingZero wrote:
Using that many depots at your wall sounds like a recipe for getting supply blocked pretty hardcore. Just make your Factory at your wall, or 2rax it. Even leave a small area open that you block with a couple Marauders if you have to.
Super early Hellions are still the best thing against this strategy. Even on maps like Scrap Station, a half-together wall will hold with Hellions backing it up.
nah it just kills off their banelings and thus their overall economic investment, most of the time after defending successfully you'll win the game
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On April 09 2010 11:21 sleeepy wrote:
A few marauders on the ramp stop banelings cold.
No they don't.
As for the OP: Either build 2 rax 1 factory (3 fat buildings and avoid ebay cause it has lower hp), 1 rax 2 factory, double rax below the ramp or 1 rax 1 fac below the ramp. Don't forget to get atleast one helion so that he pays dearly for trying to soften your wall with lings.
To counter banelings you just scan with your second mule energy and if you see a bane nest you proceed to wall. Even cut units if it's necessary. Also a zerg killing your scv with more than 2 lings often times means baneling bust.
I like to fast tech to banshees after my wall is set up and proceed to rape those banes before they can hit the wall. Alternatively you can go for the zerg base right away but I like to have 2 banshees before doing that so I can kill the queen with ease.
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I had a few banelings try to destroy my wall, luckily i had a few marines and marauders there with the concussive (i thing that's it) upgrade, so they shot them and only 1 of them actually got to my wall.
So marauders can stop them, depending on where they are positioned to the ramp, and how many.
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On April 09 2010 22:28 StarBrift wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2010 11:21 sleeepy wrote:
A few marauders on the ramp stop banelings cold. No they don't.
It takes 7 banelings to take down 1 marauder, then 5 more for the depot to actually break your wall. That's 12 banelings this early in the game to take down 1 unit and 1 depot at best. Considering that you would have the rest of your marauder/marines above your ramp shooting at the zerg and maybe killing them off before they have a chance to detonate it could take up to 15 to break your front. So if the zerg uses 15 banelings to kill 200/25 worth of resources, he's already lost.
Tell me how that isn't stopping banelings.
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On April 10 2010 08:46 sleeepy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2010 22:28 StarBrift wrote:On April 09 2010 11:21 sleeepy wrote:
A few marauders on the ramp stop banelings cold. No they don't. It takes 7 banelings to take down 1 marauder, then 5 more for the depot to actually break your wall. That's 12 banelings this early in the game to take down 1 unit and 1 depot at best. Considering that you would have the rest of your marauder/marines above your ramp shooting at the zerg and maybe killing them off before they have a chance to detonate it could take up to 15 to break your front. So if the zerg uses 15 banelings to kill 200/25 worth of resources, he's already lost. Tell me how that isn't stopping banelings.
i totally second that.
what i am doing is combine these 2. if i see hes moving in i put like 2 marauders on the ramp itself (still close enough to your wall so that the rest of your units hit the incoming troops).
1) alot of banelings already die while trying to approach them
2) they take A LOT of hits
while i also make a wall with more than 1 depot. this is in case i have already moved out and dont want to keep 2 marauders back there the wall can still hold (if hes trying to backstab with a smaller force)
in case he tries to run past your 2 marauders (i dont remember if they block the ramp sufficiently but i dont think so) - units line up and die one after another.
i also think a tank absorbs a lot of hits from banelings so maybe rushing for a tank instead of building hellions is an option too, havent tried it though.
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Hey!
If you watch my games vs Dimaga - reason for walling in at the bottom is 2 fold.
1. If you make a PF at an expo, where it is close to a choke - it can hit easier.
2. - it only takes 2 buildings to wall off at the bottom, where as at the top it takes 3 - no matter the size, this is pretty vital info.
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if u wall with depos u get supply blocked and u auto lose to ling flood, scout baneling nest wall with 2 rax/fact and bunker behind, its an all in
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On April 10 2010 10:14 DeMusliM wrote:
Hey!
If you watch my games vs Dimaga - reason for walling in at the bottom is 2 fold.
1. If you make a PF at an expo, where it is close to a choke - it can hit easier.
2. - it only takes 2 buildings to wall off at the bottom, where as at the top it takes 3 - no matter the size, this is pretty vital info.
Wouldn't walling at the bottom be even worse early on though? Your opponent will have a larger concave than you so if he goes roaches you're pretty screwed. Not only are some of your units prevented from attacking because they can't get down, but you lave less repair space than his attack space if he uses lings.
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Walling at the bottom is only good for a FE on LT or metalopolis and ~maybe~ Blistering sands where you will extend the wall perpendicular with a CC and bunkers. Otherwise the one Supply Depot on the inside is a big weak spot because it gives a lot more surface area to melee, and even if it's not at a good angle for roaches, you can only fit 1 SCV on it for repair and that SCV is easy to snipe with roaches anyway. However the bottom of the ramp wall is ideal on the FE because it's up extremely fast to wall out early ling rushes and the drone scout, and then later it makes ling runbys impossible. Nothing more entertaining than FEing out under some early all-in ling stuff- they can never bust ya with one base super cheese while you just got up an early expo is such lol gg. All very neat and tidy.
If you get used to using a 3x3-supply-3x3 wall on the top of your ramp you can completely nullify bling busts and you can even laugh at roach pressuring your wall with just using marines now. It makes a 1 tile wide gate, and puts the supply depot very far back with extremely small surface area on it with a lot of room to repair. In addition, if they attack the barracks, it takes much less SCV repair to keep them up not just due to their significantly higher health, but they repair almost twice as fast per SCV too. It is a very, very strong wall with a barracks-barracks or barracks-factory, but you can use slightly weaker eng. bay in most cases or a bunker, although the bunker won't stop bling busts. It's all depending on what build you're going for.
For example, if you've got some factory or starport opening, you can rax-supply, then block the remaining spot with 3-4 marines at the top of the ramp. If it looks like there's any early attack attempting to punish the late wall, you build a bunker on that spot. You can also use rax+addon either settling for having to lift to get out or salvaging a bunker if it sits in the place the supply depot usually goes. That's usually alright for some reaper openings.
I like 2 rax walls personally. It feels the most flexible in what I can do, safe, and the trickiest to read where I'm going with it, even if it is not as optimized as some other plays can be.
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EPT
