EPTCurious to hear what people think the optimum mix is here. Edit: After playing another few games, I think walling off your ramp with force field while you get a immortals out is absolutely the way to go; it totally shuts down their ability to rush with those damned early marauders until you have enough immortals out to deal with them, plus zealot charge.
[D] PvT -- What gateway units vs marauder?
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icki.icki
106 Posts
Curious to hear what people think the optimum mix is here. Edit: After playing another few games, I think walling off your ramp with force field while you get a immortals out is absolutely the way to go; it totally shuts down their ability to rush with those damned early marauders until you have enough immortals out to deal with them, plus zealot charge. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
I have seen more stalkers* in like the past 2 tvp I have played than all the tvp/pvt beta games I'd seen or played b4 that  | ||
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Smoyf
United States44 Posts
If you know that someone is going to be marauder rushing you the best thing you can do is to fast tech to robo. Make a zealot while your cyber core is building and then build a stalker ASAP. An early stalker and zealot should be able to handle the first couple marauders he sends to your base if you micro correctly. If he focuses on kiting the zealot then your stalker will get free hits on them. If he focuses on your stalker then the zealot will hit them. Don't chase out of your base either, use the vision with the ramp to delay until your first immortal is out. After that baby is out any early marauders he has will die if he doesn't run them. At that point something that I like to do (got it from a friend) was to make a warp prism and another immortal and send them into his base to harass. Destroy what you can, tech, supply depots, SCVs... since so many terrans go pure marauder he won't be able to shoot your warp prism down and you can just abuse it to really set him back while you tech up to colossus and build up your army. | ||
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icki.icki
106 Posts
I played two PvT back to back, got rocked the first one going stalker / zealot / immortal. Second I just walled off until I had a superior force and timing pushed with +1 and zealot charge, and took out his natural and then just sat back and took complete map control. | ||
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BigBalls
United States5354 Posts
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DarQraven
Netherlands553 Posts
Problem here is that Marauders are produced from the same Barracks+Tech lab that Reapers are produced from. Meaning, all the Terran has to do to completely own your base is send a couple early marauders to get you to go sentry+zealot, then do a *free* switch to reapers and destroy all your probes. Only if you see this coming can you really build up enough stalkers to prevent terrible terrible damage©. I say a mix of Stalker+Sentry+Zeal is usually the best. It is more prone to failure with bad micro (and possibly building placement - if you semi-wall your ramp with a gateway, the marauders can focus fire it while half your stalkers are out of range), but is a lot safer against a switch like this. If, for some reason, you don't see the reapers coming and have only zealots, it's GG. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
If he goes for some sort of hellion play sentry/zealot is horrible. If he goes for air it's pretty weak as well cause sentries suck pretty hard vs banshees. I would advise against skimping on the robo as well because you're playing in the dark which is never good. | ||
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icki.icki
106 Posts
On April 06 2010 08:25 Floophead_III wrote: I'm not sure why people don't just go stalker + sentry which is reaper safe, air safe, tech safe, and perfectly safe vs mara rush cause of FF (cut off half his force then use stalkers to shoot from out of range of his guys on the far side of the FFs.) That should allow you to get a robo up at which point you can go to immortal/zealot and regain map control. Perhaps a respected toss can say why this is or isn't viable, cause I don't have much experience as protoss since a few patches ago. If he goes for some sort of hellion play sentry/zealot is horrible. If he goes for air it's pretty weak as well cause sentries suck pretty hard vs banshees. I would advise against skimping on the robo as well because you're playing in the dark which is never good. You need to spend a lot of gas early in the game, so sentry / zealot is better really early in the game. You probably should go something like zealot, then stalker (for reapers), then sentry -- but the trouble is that for very pushes sentry force field can be such a lifesaver. Anyhow, my point is that you never STAY zealot/sentry, but it can keep you alive for the first few minutes in a way that stalker / sentry can't. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
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icki.icki
106 Posts
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Avius
Iraq1796 Posts
You might argue that zealots are crap against marauders, but it really forces the T to micro the shit out of his marauders, or they'll simply die. Plus they are a nice meatshield. Throw in a couple of FF here and there and you can pretty much hold off his first push. By this time I have 2 gate while throwing down my robo and usually I end up getting an Immortal relatively quickly so the push is completely denied. | ||
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
replays: vs terran http://www.mediafire.com/?djh2lkzwkjz http://www.mediafire.com/?ilzmuthm3oz vs zerg http://www.mediafire.com/?yjjly1tztn1 i won against both terrans against the zerg i lost because he outmacro'ed me and i made the mistake of attacking when i should have waited 2 minutes to get 200food. i attacked when i was 169food and my enemy was 179food because i was retarded and wasted 1500minerals on cannons. if i didnt waste 1500 minerals on cannons and waited for 200food before i attacked i would have beat the zerg because the zerg could not kill me if i just camped and turtled | ||
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icki.icki
106 Posts
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Raydog
United States632 Posts
I've played vs. numerous high level Terrans who try a marauder semi-all-in (even bring SCVs), and they say they can beat immortals, but not zealot legs. | ||
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Avius
Iraq1796 Posts
But I digress, the OP is asking about gateway units and Zealot/Sentry(+Stalker) is doing the trick for me. I always get 1 Stalker in the beginning just to be safe against the Reapers and to kill off the scouting SCV. | ||
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Feefee
Canada556 Posts
I suppose you just have to time your colossi to come out by then or be careful with your sentries | ||
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icki.icki
106 Posts
On April 06 2010 09:08 Avius wrote: Against heavy Marauder semi-all-in you should always be getting the legs upgrade, no doubt, but imo after the robo. The Obs and Immortal are just way too important to miss out on. But I digress, the OP is asking about gateway units and Zealot/Sentry(+Stalker) is doing the trick for me. I always get 1 Stalker in the beginning just to be safe against the Reapers and to kill off the scouting SCV. Oh, totally agreed about the leg upgrade post-robo; you need obs and immortals ASAP. I was completely not making sentries, which was just a monumental mistake. | ||
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
My army consists of 50% stalker, 30% zealot, 20% immortal with a couple sentries. The rationale is that Immortals and stalkers have very high DPS vs marauders, but marauders have even higher DPS vs Immortals and stalkers. A zealot can tank a marauder for 16 hits, which is a long time, and a microed marauder can kite a zealot until he dies. So in each scenario, the marauder wins out, but when you combine the two, it's different. In a hybrid army, marauders will fire at the zealots first. That means Terran has very low DPS against you, but you have very high DPS against them. Stalker/immortal can shred through MM in the time that MM just kills your 5 or so zealots. If Terran tech switches to air, having 50% stalker will deal with that easily while you pump out more stalkers. If Terran tech switches to mech, you have more than enough immortals to deal with it. If Terran masses marines, the couple sentries will enable your stalkers and immortals to deal with them. The most important part is having an observer. That way, you can counter Terran's army before they realize what's going on. EDIT: Take this with a grain of salt since I haven't actually played a top Terran player yet. This just works versus 1000-1500 ELO people. | ||
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mint_julep
United States254 Posts
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zZygote
Canada898 Posts
On April 26 2010 03:58 mint_julep wrote: icki, what about when there's no ramp on your map to FF? I would then consider walling off the choke with your stalker/sentry/zealot. Then chronoboost the hell outta that immortal. At most they would have 3-5 mara's with either 1-3 marines. You can easily counter push or expand cause your at an advantage for his early investment on gas. | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
A) kite and shoot down the Zealots, making them do literally no damage to your Immortals/Stalkers/Sentries in the meantime B) Try to gun down Immortals, Stalkers and Sentries sitting at max range while getting battered in by Zealots. Try any unit composition you want out of GW units and Immortals. The ones that have a handful of Zealot tanks are going to be the most successful. Zealots alone aren't going to do shit. Neither is a blob of Sentries, Stalkers and Immortals. Zealot tanks with some ranged backup are the proper way to beat Marauders. | ||
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WorkersOfTheWorld
United States619 Posts
On April 26 2010 06:32 Bibdy wrote: Zealots are the key to beating Marauders. Zealots cause the Marauders to either A) kite and shoot down the Zealots, making them do literally no damage to your Immortals/Stalkers/Sentries in the meantime B) Try to gun down Immortals, Stalkers and Sentries sitting at max range while getting battered in by Zealots. Try any unit composition you want out of GW units and Immortals. The ones that have a handful of Zealot tanks are going to be the most successful. Zealots alone aren't going to do shit. Neither is a blob of Sentries, Stalkers and Immortals. Zealot tanks with some ranged backup are the proper way to beat Marauders. Yep. It takes a keen balance of all these units to do the trick against mass marauders. Don't over-produce anything from the gateway and don't sink too many resources into immortals either. Massing immortals won't work at all when stim is researched. The best you can do is force them to kite zealots which buys you time for a relatively low price (at least they don't cost any gas =/) while you tech up to something scary like colossi or HT (not quite as scary, but i'd get them if he's adding ghosts to the mix). | ||
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h4rvey
Canada249 Posts
I usually get a couple immortal mixed with Sentry / Zealots (with speed) By the time i have these units ready the terran has so many marauders he over takes me. Im trying to learn the best timing to push out or to find out when Terran are the weakest. | ||
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puril
United States43 Posts
i dont see too many terrans go marauder all-in anymore though...this is an old post. | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
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Stropheum
United States1124 Posts
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WorkersOfTheWorld
United States619 Posts
On April 27 2010 00:45 Bibdy wrote: I don't see what's so great about Collossus vs Terrans, to be honest. I much prefer getting Psi Storm, with DT harassment first, then Void Rays. Collossi only seem worth it if they have a ton of Marines, and let's be honest, what Terrans do you see getting Marines these days? Storm doesn't really dent marauders that much either. Honestly if the went really marauder heavy, to the exclusion of marines, colossi with a zealot/ff wall is one of the best ways to deal with the pile, using range to just constantly whittle down the marauders. That being said, they're both semi-effective means of skinning the marauder mass cat. I think colossi come up more often because terran need an excuse for loosing to P, and colossi is the most infamous of our aoe units post storm nerf. | ||
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DragonDefonce
United States790 Posts
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
On April 27 2010 01:04 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote: Storm doesn't really dent marauders that much either. Honestly if the went really marauder heavy, to the exclusion of marines, colossi with a zealot/ff wall is one of the best ways to deal with the pile, using range to just constantly whittle down the marauders. That being said, they're both semi-effective means of skinning the marauder mass cat. I think colossi come up more often because terran need an excuse for loosing to P, and colossi is the most infamous of our aoe units post storm nerf. Well what I mean is, why would you get Collossi against Marauders? Just mass Stalkers, Sentries and Immortals to deal with them, plus the Zealot wall. You get Collossi or Psi Storm to deal with everything else. And HTs are a lot more versatile than Collossi, I find. Its anti-Banshee, Viking, Ghost, Medivac, Marine and makes the Marauders have to move a lot. Getting Collossi just means you end up fighting Vikings, which gives him a good harassment tool and now you have to mass more Stalkers to get rid of them in the big fight, which is very dangerous when that fight involves massed Marauders. Plus, its a lot easier to get your ass-kicked and come back with a giant gateway army, than it is a big Robo army. | ||
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DragonDefonce
United States790 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
On April 27 2010 01:36 DragonDefonce wrote: psi storm is more micro intensive, easily dodgable, is in limited quantity, and emp completely nullifies it. Plus, you need robo anyways, so its just easier to go immortal then transition into colossus because it is great against bio AND mech. That's a skill issue, dodging means you're hitting him and he's not hitting you, you don't need many shots to get the desired effect and you can Feedback Ghosts dead before the start of the fight (admittedly Feedback has a range of 9 vs EMP having a range of 10, but I haven't been totally screwed by it, yet). I find Collossi to be a bigger penalty than a boon. Trying to keep my Collossi safe from Vikings without Psi Storm (they're insanely slow, so they get torn to bits by PS), when there's a gigantic ball of Marauders there is incredibly hard and takes even more micro than Psi Storm. Keep Collossi out of Viking range, but still firing and having your Stalkers shooting Vikings instead of the Marauder ball before they kill all the Stalkers...urgh. Rather just Feedback the Ghosts, and cast Psi Storms all over the place. If I combine Collossi and HTs (very long game), then I'd put a little Psi Storm focus on the Viking blob. Plus, it lets you add Void Rays. Their choice of counter to that is either Marines or Vikings, which Psi Storm can handle quite well, too. | ||
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WorkersOfTheWorld
United States619 Posts
On April 27 2010 01:47 Bibdy wrote: I find Collossi to be a bigger penalty than a boon. Trying to keep my Collossi safe from Vikings without Psi Storm (they're insanely slow, so they get torn to bits by PS), when there's a gigantic ball of Marauders there is incredibly hard and takes even more micro than Psi Storm. Keep Collossi out of Viking range, but still firing and having your Stalkers shooting Vikings instead of the Marauder ball before they kill all the Stalkers...urgh. Rather just Feedback the Ghosts, and cast Psi Storms all over the place. If I combine Collossi and HTs (very long game), then I'd put a little Psi Storm focus on the Viking blob. Plus, it lets you add Void Rays. Their choice of counter to that is either Marines or Vikings, which Psi Storm can handle quite well, too. I think the biggest penalty of colossi is how predictable they are. As you can tell from reading "AND THEN HE WILL GET COLOSSUS..." in almost every TvP thread, they pretty much assume they're going to show up eventually. | ||
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