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Almost every PvP game I play, I have my opponent going zealots, some stalkers and transitioning into immortals. I don't understand this strategy at all. Stalkers are weak to zealots, zealots are even with other zealots, (obviously) and immortals, unless I am missing something, are only useful against armored units.
I can understand why you would want a few stalkers, as they do additional damage to armored targets, so they might be useful for taking out flying warp prisms and aren't half-bad against tech units, but why the immortal? I've beaten every player who has done this versus me, but considering it's a strategy that every one seems to be doing, I'd like it explained to me.
My standard build is to get my gateways and warp gates ASAP and then tech robotics for an observer and colossus. Zealots seem like the best unit by far in this matchup, as with charge they are good versus almost everything except colossus, so that's why I am confused at people making immortals, maybe it's to counter other plays who make zealot/colossus?
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Because the immortal is good against colossus maybe? Dunno because I dun have a key.
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no, these people are just dumb and dont understand what is good.
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I've had luck using Immortals to get through Terran ramp blocking. But I guess the argument could be made that Colossus do the same thing via cliff climb.
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Immortals are beast units that cut through zealot numbers. You want a healthy mix as well. Think about it from a SC1 perspective.
In PvP midgame whats better?
12 dragoons, 8 zealots, and 2 high templar
22 dragoons
The same thing applies to this game, in fact even more. An army that consists of 20 zealots will not be nearly as effective as an army with 10 zealots, 8 stalkers and 1-2 immortals. Then mix in a sentry and you can make choke points thus making the all-zealot army less effective. Even a 20 zealot army with 1 colossus vs. a mix of zealots, stalkers, and immortals will not be effective. Immortals are the direct counter to the colossus (without teching stargate or templar archives).
Based upon the number of PvP games I've played I'm liking the 10:8:3:1 ratio of zealots:stalkers:sentry:immortals. The sentry is a good support unit to keep the colossus attack damage minimal. Also you can substitute immortals for colossi if you're willing to tech higher, don't forget you can make an immortal right when the robo is finished, you don't need a support bay.
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On February 24 2010 00:43 Amber[LighT] wrote:
Immortals are beast units that cut through zealot numbers. You want a healthy mix as well. Think about it from a SC1 perspective.
In PvP midgame whats better?
12 dragoons, 8 zealots, and 2 high templar
22 dragoons
The same thing applies to this game, in fact even more. An army that consists of 20 zealots will not be nearly as effective as an army with 10 zealots, 8 stalkers and 1-2 immortals. Then mix in a sentry and you can make choke points thus making the all-zealot army less effective. Even a 20 zealot army with 1 colossus vs. a mix of zealots, stalkers, and immortals will not be effective. Immortals are the direct counter to the colossus (without teching stargate or templar archives).
Based upon the number of PvP games I've played I'm liking the 10:8:3:1 ratio of zealots:stalkers:sentry:immortals. The sentry is a good support unit to keep the colossus attack damage minimal. Also you can substitute immortals for colossi if you're willing to tech higher, don't forget you can make an immortal right when the robo is finished, you don't need a support bay.
I understand what you are saying, but are you conceding that in an open area, or an area in which the opponent can be flanked, that mass zealots with colossus are better? If that point is conceded, that you have to weigh what is considered easier to do: flank with zealots, or only fight in areas with tight chokes/make tight chokes yourself.
I'm not trying to advocate that mass/zealot and colossus is the best combination throughout the entire game, as late game it would be silly to have only a massive pile of zealots, but I don't see how mid-game you're going to stop an opponent with twelve to fourteen chargelots, when you have six zealots, four stalkers and an immortal for example. Can you post a replay where you play someone who went for chargelots, foregoing any immortals or stalkers? I would post my own replays, but I haven't lost versus an opponent who makes these units.
EDIT: Furthermore, if I am going to engage and you throw up barriers, why do I not simply retreat? From what I envision, I see myself being able to easily get out of nasty situations like the one I stated, whereas if I happen to catch you in an open area you're toast.
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Vatican City State1826 Posts
the only reason to get immortals is because your opponent is going collosus
target fire the collosus with the immortals
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Vatican City State1826 Posts
also, stalkers are worthless i have no idea why you would make any more than a handful of them in any matchup
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Well I think you need to be getting a mix of all of those units. Colossi do crazy damage to just about everything on the ground. They are your best bet against zealots and actually clean up stalkers with ease as well.
Immortals with just a little bit of focus fire are going to blow up your colossi almost instantly. They also make a mess of stalkers, but are weak against zealots. In my opinion it's a bit of a complicated RPS type system. React to what your opponent is doing. If he is massing immortals and little else, get fewer colossi and focus on more zealots. If he's got loads of stalkers and zealots, get a mix of zealot and colossi. If he's got loads of colossi, add your own immortals and focus fire.
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Vatican City State1826 Posts
On February 24 2010 01:11 Haemonculus wrote:
Well I think you need to be getting a mix of all of those units. Colossi do crazy damage to just about everything on the ground. They are your best bet against zealots and actually clean up stalkers with ease as well.
Immortals with just a little bit of focus fire are going to blow up your colossi almost instantly. They also make a mess of stalkers, but are weak against zealots. In my opinion it's a bit of a complicated RPS type system. React to what your opponent is doing. If he is massing immortals and little else, get fewer colossi and focus on more zealots. If he's got loads of stalkers and zealots, get a mix of zealot and colossi. If he's got loads of colossi, add your own immortals and focus fire.
you're a smart girl.
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On February 24 2010 01:11 Haemonculus wrote:
Well I think you need to be getting a mix of all of those units. Colossi do crazy damage to just about everything on the ground. They are your best bet against zealots and actually clean up stalkers with ease as well.
Immortals with just a little bit of focus fire are going to blow up your colossi almost instantly. They also make a mess of stalkers, but are weak against zealots. In my opinion it's a bit of a complicated RPS type system. React to what your opponent is doing. If he is massing immortals and little else, get fewer colossi and focus on more zealots. If he's got loads of stalkers and zealots, get a mix of zealot and colossi. If he's got loads of colossi, add your own immortals and focus fire.
Yes, I agree that immortals beat Colossi, but partly of what I am asking is why are people going zealot/stalker/immortals. Zealot/Colossus or Zealot/Immortal seem like the only two combinations that seem worthwhile.
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Early game, you want 1-2 immortals instead of colossi. Mid game, you want to switch to colossi.
When both players have very few units, if your opponent is going stalkers while you are going zealots (without charge), your opponent will just outmicro you. At this stage, stalkers are bit better than zealots, so you want to get immortals. If your opponent goes mass zealots, you can micro your immortal against them and do quite a bit. Colossi aren't worth it at this point because with such few units, you won't get much splash damage. Furthermore, their immortals will crush your colossi.
Mid game, you want to switch to colossi. Both player will have a lot of zealots, usually not a lot of stalkers, and either colossi or immortals. When zealots engage, they will be in a line. This way, colossi completely demolish them because they attack many at a time. Your opponent needs to use immortals to counter your colossi but he can't do that because thanks to a colossus' range, an immortal has to walk past the line of zealots in order to fire on your colossi. So during the fight, your colossi will be ripping their zealots apart while their immortals will be doing crappy damage against your zealots. You will destroy their army much faster, and then you zealots can clean up their immortals with ease.
Therefore early game, it is best to go stalkers/immortals, and mid game switch to zealot/colossi. Always have support units like sentries or temps of course.
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On February 24 2010 01:42 Salv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2010 01:11 Haemonculus wrote:
Well I think you need to be getting a mix of all of those units. Colossi do crazy damage to just about everything on the ground. They are your best bet against zealots and actually clean up stalkers with ease as well.
Immortals with just a little bit of focus fire are going to blow up your colossi almost instantly. They also make a mess of stalkers, but are weak against zealots. In my opinion it's a bit of a complicated RPS type system. React to what your opponent is doing. If he is massing immortals and little else, get fewer colossi and focus on more zealots. If he's got loads of stalkers and zealots, get a mix of zealot and colossi. If he's got loads of colossi, add your own immortals and focus fire. Yes, I agree that immortals beat Colossi, but partly of what I am asking is why are people going zealot/stalker/immortals. Zealot/Colossus or Zealot/Immortal seem like the only two combinations that seem worthwhile.
well zealots rape immortals and collosus rape zealots so the reasoning behind those is focus on immortals to overpower his collosus but have a couple of your own to protect yourself from zealots. but really pure zealot collosus seems to be the strongest mix and most immortal builds are specific timing builds designed to punish people rushing straight for collosus'.
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It's certainly not easy. In large PvP battles it can be difficult to see what's going on. I've entered into a few battles thinking everything was going awesome and then realize a few seconds too late that my entire army just got murdered horribly.
When there are several colossi on each side, entire blobs of units can just melt instantly and it's so hard to know who's units are dying.
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This may be somewhat of a tangent, but wouldn't a Protoss player going stargate basically counter one that's going for robotics units? Mass Zealots + Void Ray/Carriers should be superior to Zealots + Immortal/Colossus assuming you don't just blindly charge into the Colossus. And, if the other Protoss player mass Stalkers to counter your air, the Zealot should be able to tear them up.
Also, I think Zealot/Colossus is superior to Zealot/Immortal for the most part, especially after their range upgrade. The player going Colossus should be able to afford more zealots (assuming both are spending all their gas on their gas units) and should be able to block Immortals from getting into position to fire on the Colossi. Meanwhile, your Colossi can easily wipe out the enemy zealots from range and leave the other player with only Immortals vs your Zealot/Colossus army. Of course, positioning can affect the outcome quite a bit here.
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Aotearoa38206 Posts
In my experiences Void Rays get destroyed by Stalkers. If you're going robo you typically get an obs out first and you'll see he's going voids and just start slapping down a few stalkers. Void's are a pretty big investment so it shouldn't be long until you're able to over power them.
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Are Carriers any good then? From looking at the stats, they're cheaper (due to having 4 free interceptors) and possibly having higher dps compared to SC1 since each interceptors do 5x2 instead of 6 when they shoot. There's probably a big timing window of vulnerability since they take so long to build but it shouldn't be too bad once you get a couple of them out. Or... do they just get completely destroyed by Stalkers too?
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stalker > void ray > immortal > collosus > zealot > stalker
sort of...
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immortal > stalker
collossus > zealot (sorta)
collossus is also vulnerable to pheonix attacks. If they make immortal vs pure zealots they are making a bad move because they are terrible vs zealots for their cost. If they are vs a mix of zealot/stalker i can see it. my 2c
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Germany2970 Posts
zeal immo < zeal colossus (in my experience) because the range and aoe damage of the colossus
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EPT
