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Every single game i play, i rely on scouting and using reapers or marine/marauders to counter their army, then teching, then expanding all off of 2 or 3 raxes.
Has anyone found a way to go 1rax tech and still be safe from roach rushes, stalker rushes, or maurader/marine rushes? Getting a tank or banshee could seriously offer terran some choices instead of being forced to get m&m, which is currently the only thing terran can do (besides reaper rushing) and be safe.
So far, these rushes are impossible to stop without building up an army before teching.
If terran could quickly tech to tank and siege mode, we could easily nab an extra expansion and get the additional gas needed to tech to better units with very little fear. 1 siege tank, 4 marauders and a handful of marines can lay waste to a lot more than you think.
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I think if you wall off, pump marines, and tech you will be pretty safe. Throw down a bunker if they are making stalkers or maybe just throw one down against toss in general to be safe. Minerals shouldn't be limiting your tech too much I wouldn't think.
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Ive found if you dont have substantial amount of rines/maurauders they are going to figure it out sooner or later and start warping in zealots+stalkers or morphing a shitload of roches thanks to the queen. Even walling in is really only protecting you from zergling rushes. If they 2gate and your not waiting for it it will tear through your wall quickly. People are saying Terran can have map control, but our choices are rines/rauders or pray you dont rush and we can tech with minor defenses. With Chrono boost and Queens larvae injection, they both make armies faster than Terran can for a while.
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get a bunker, stick shit in it and pull scvs early, don't wait to come and repair. vs. marine marauder you're going to need a very fast tank/siege and a couple bunkers full of units. even then it will be tough, but if you can survive the initial onslaught you will have an advantage. roaches actually can be stopped fairly well by two bunkers with marine/marauder in them and a siege tank (with siege).
most of my builds revolve around 1rax teching, and i usually am able to survive. occasionally ill mistime someones build and get overrun by marines/marauders or stalkers/zealots. it's annoying, but finding out tweaks to a build is the way to learn/evolve your play instead of thinking within the confined box of needing a large army to face off a rush.
oh and maps with a ramp, get 2-3 hellions, they are AMAZING at defending at the wall. the splash will hit down the ramp almost the entire way.
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Okay so far I have
10 depot
11 gas, keep 1 scv on it
12 rax
14 gas, keep 1 scv on it
15 tech reactor
16 orbital, send 4 scvs to gas so each refinery has 3 scvs each
17 reaper or marauder, doesn't matter too much
18 supply depot
19 fac or ghost acad for ghost rushes
And then i still need to refine it from here. So far, I've been semi-successful with upgrade rushes, fast tank w/ siege, nuke rush, thor rush to some degree, banshee rushes, and viking rushes. The mule solves my mineral problems and the early gas provides me with enough gas to maintain constant marauder and/or reaper or production and get ups at the same time.
i still need to figure out how to master defending dedicated rushes like 3gate stalker/zeal, fast immortals/collosi, 1base roach, and 3rax mnm with only a fac and a rax w/ tech. Ideally, i'd like to add an extra rax w/ reactor for double marine production so my tech has some back-up, but upgrades are so expensive to rush for...
My replays are all vs sucky players; i need to test this out on good people that rush...
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I wouldnt suggest trying to use tanks to expo. They don't offer you any way to pressure ur opponent and prevent them from just expoing in response and pumping out more drones/probes than u can pump SCVs, defeating the purpose of ur FE almost.
You can 1-rax + go for hellions for Zerg, and u can sort 1 rax Banshee vs protoss on some maps depending what the Toss player does.
Bunkers are your friend, and u can salvage them for 100% refund =o
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After going vs better people with a tech build, I think i can safely say that there is no way to compensate for getting outmacroed. Sacrificing reactor cores for powerful units is literally all-in; if it doesn't work, theres no way you're coming back from it. Fast teching and FEing is not going to work in sc2 at all.
The rush is too powerful to deflect without masses of units; siege tanks in siege mode don't even deflect half the builds because there are so many unit combos that will kill 4 siege tanks, a bunker, and some mnm. Even if they lose all their units, they still have the upper hand because they have better macro capacity than i do. It's vital to start production early and fast. Tech does not beat masses at all.
The chrono ability, spawn larvae, and reactor core allows each race to mass huge amounts of lower tech units that higher tech units cannot deflect w/o sacrificing map control.
Giving up on fast teching...
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On February 25 2010 16:05 imBLIND wrote:
After going vs better people with a tech build, I think i can safely say that there is no way to compensate for getting outmacroed. Sacrificing reactor cores for powerful units is literally all-in; if it doesn't work, theres no way you're coming back from it. Fast teching and FEing is not going to work in sc2 at all.
The rush is too powerful to deflect without masses of units; siege tanks in siege mode don't even deflect half the builds because there are so many unit combos that will kill 4 siege tanks, a bunker, and some mnm. Even if they lose all their units, they still have the upper hand because they have better macro capacity than i do. It's vital to start production early and fast. Tech does not beat masses at all.
The chrono ability, spawn larvae, and reactor core allows each race to mass huge amounts of lower tech units that higher tech units cannot deflect w/o sacrificing map control.
Giving up on fast teching...
It might be a little early to make such a sweeping generlization. Fast expanding might be able to work but I don't think Terrans are executing it properly. Terran has a lot of new stuff to help with expanding: Planetary Fortresses, Bunker upgrades, building armor upgrades, and the +1 range upgrade. How often do you see people using even half of these things? Hell, I see most people opting for an Orbital Command most of the time for their expansions. Also, notice that the more experienced players (devs) like David Kim and KHB almost always use PFs for their expansions. I will say, however, that I've never seen them FE off of 1rax.
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FE could work with the ebay ups, ima have to try that out later. Fast teching on the other hand is out of the question because spawn larvae, reactor cores, and chrono is just too much to handle. There are too many units to deal with with just a factory and a rax. Their production rate is like 3 times mine, and i barely have enough money to maintain tech and upgrades...
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On February 25 2010 16:05 imBLIND wrote:
After going vs better people with a tech build, I think i can safely say that there is no way to compensate for getting outmacroed. Sacrificing reactor cores for powerful units is literally all-in; if it doesn't work, theres no way you're coming back from it. Fast teching and FEing is not going to work in sc2 at all.
The rush is too powerful to deflect without masses of units; siege tanks in siege mode don't even deflect half the builds because there are so many unit combos that will kill 4 siege tanks, a bunker, and some mnm. Even if they lose all their units, they still have the upper hand because they have better macro capacity than i do. It's vital to start production early and fast. Tech does not beat masses at all.
The chrono ability, spawn larvae, and reactor core allows each race to mass huge amounts of lower tech units that higher tech units cannot deflect w/o sacrificing map control.
Giving up on fast teching...
fast expanding can work, people just need to find the right build orders to make it work. fast teching is also feasible, it just takes people testing it out.
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On February 25 2010 16:05 imBLIND wrote:
After going vs better people with a tech build, I think i can safely say that there is no way to compensate for getting outmacroed. Sacrificing reactor cores for powerful units is literally all-in; if it doesn't work, theres no way you're coming back from it. Fast teching and FEing is not going to work in sc2 at all.
The rush is too powerful to deflect without masses of units; siege tanks in siege mode don't even deflect half the builds because there are so many unit combos that will kill 4 siege tanks, a bunker, and some mnm. Even if they lose all their units, they still have the upper hand because they have better macro capacity than i do. It's vital to start production early and fast. Tech does not beat masses at all.
The chrono ability, spawn larvae, and reactor core allows each race to mass huge amounts of lower tech units that higher tech units cannot deflect w/o sacrificing map control.
Giving up on fast teching...
I've been having a lot of success going fast tech with a somewhat fast expo without any troubles fending off rushes. Siege tanks are great at defending vs pretty much anything except melee and immortals, which can be held if you start pumping marines from a reactor barracks right after you start your CC in your main. The fact that you can just make a giant wall of depots over time at your nat and a bunker with no real penalties is also really nice.
So far my builds are looking something like this:
Against toss and 1 base zerg:
10 depot
12 rax
13 refinery
15 orbital command
15 depot
15 marine
16 factory
16 gas
add on a tech lab to your factory as soon as it finishes and start pumping siege tanks. Make the reactor on the barracks and your CC in your main whenever money allows, and your CC should be done about the time you have 4 tanks and 8 marines. Then as you lift your CC out start an ebay and make 3 or 4 raxes at once. Pump out a large amount of marauder/marine and by the time you have about 25 you should have like 10 siege tanks, which is a really strong push. Then keep pumping and tech to medivaks and stim as your pressure or kill your opponent.
Against T and fast expoing zergs:
same build as above except instead of going tech lab on the factory, put down 2 starports right as your factory finishes and double tech lab for banshees. Right after your first 2 banshees start, create an ebay. After your 3rd and 4th banshees start, begin a turret then your CC. Then lift your starports and make a factory on one tech lab and build a rax or factory on the other. If you see your opponent is attempting to go air, then use the factory to start making thors while holding off with turret+banshee. Although banshees can't attack air, the turrets can keep them protected and they obliterate small ground forces. Plus half of the time zerg just dies to the first 2 vikings because a queen doesn't stand a chance against 2 vikings and zerg usually can't get out hydras fast enough if they went hatch first.
If they go for land like hydras+roaches or marines, then siege mode and pump tanks to expand. Then followup with however you see fit; the banshees should allow you to scout everything your opponent is doing.
The main problem I have had with doing these builds is that sometimes my opponent is able to get broodlords or carriers out just barely in time to save themselves, and I really haven't figured out what to do against capital ships with a marine/marauder based army. I probably need to scan for them earlier and start using the 2 starports for vikings or something.
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My problem with fast teching is that it's neither better nor worse than going mass mnm to secure the expansion. You don't save any money, you don't get the expansion up any faster, theres no way to micro higher tech units vs lower tech masses, and the opportunity cost for tech isn't worth it. So why fast tech at all?
If i fast tech, i have to split my resources into constant scv production (until i hit 22 workers), supply depots, making units to defend myself from rushes, and into tech. Tech is so expensive and, usually, the tech is for an expensive unit that takes a long time to produce. Tanks, banshees, vikings, and ghosts are all very gas intensive. If I am constantly spending my money towards tech, then it'll take:
400/300 to get the ghost w/o nuke or upgrades and 100/200 per additional ghost, 650/650 gas to get cloak and nukes too
650/375 to get a siege tank w/ siege, 150/125 gas for each additional tank
550/350 to get a banshee, 150/100 gas for each additional banshee, 850/550 for a banshee with cloak
There will be more minerals than gas in every game, so lets just assume we have an abundance of minerals for now.
300 gas is 6 reapers or 12 marauders. 650 gas is 13 reapers or 26 marauders.
The least amount of gas i have to partition off towards tech is 300, and the most i have to is 650.
I'm losing 12 to 26 marauders or 6 to 13 reapers just for tech. I'm pretty sure 12 marauders > 1 tank with siege, a banshee can't kill 12 marauders before they do a significant amount of damage (they build really slowly too), and 12 marauders > 1 ghost.
Even if i factor in the minerals that are spent, 4-8 marauders are still better than a tank, a banshee, and a ghost in terms of early game viability, firepower, and build time.
I haven't found a way to micro ghosts and banshees in such a way that i can retain my advantage over the rushing player. I can turtle with sieged tanks, but thats about as far as i can go. It's just A-move fest in SC2, and thats the only thing that works besides using spells in battles and basic unit micro.
None of the higher tech units can fend off lower tech units that are equal to their worth in gas or minerals without mnm support in decent numbers, meaning that a player that fast techs has to spend additional money into barracks, reactors, and mnm to fend off simple roach, stalker, zealot, and mnm rushes.
The time it takes to get a tank, ghost, or banshee is much slower than the time it takes to get 4 marauders. most players have 6-8 marauders by the time i get a tank out, or something equivalent to that amount.
The firepower, time spent, and units sacrificed to rush to tech is not worth it at all. At the very least, i will have to invest an extra 200/50 in a rax and tech/reactor addon before i can start my factory. My CC isn't gonna be popping up anytime soon either.
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Fast Teching is easily viable. You can stop the first m/m push with 1 tank, 1 or 2 bunkers (which you can salvage should you need the minerals for a cc) and as many marines as you can build. The key to fast teching is managing gas and deciding what to do with it. You do not use it on reapers (unless you scout his defences as weak to them) and you use it on as few add-ons as possible. With the new patch i'm absolutely flooded with minerals if I decide to tech. So far i've been using 2 rax to pump marines or a few marauders if I see reapers but if you opt out of building a cc early i'm sure you could run 3 rax to build marines non-stop, holding off a rush with 1 or 2 bunkers and a siege tank, and simply building up gas. The real problem with fast teching is how hard it is to defend agaisnt a medivac drop. You have to react fast to move your tanks into a strong and safe position while your ball of unupgaded marines take the damage. So far in my experience with TvT it's all about who builds the best units with their gas.
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Your logic is horribly flawed. Yes, you can get much more bio, which is far more cost effective, early on. However, you've spent money on units which if they don't get used early are completely worthless later and money not on tech to get more units which are actually useful lategame. There's a reason strategies in sc1 like the deep 6 or 2 rax m&m vs protoss are completely allin. You've spent all this money to have a super effective attack before protoss has units which can deal the splash necessary to cripple your army in seconds.
The trick is not dying to an attack early, but terran has 4 things going for them on that:
-Walls are completely free. You can and should make them everywhere that's useful. Depots can be lowered so you don't have to worry about hindering mobility later, and with the awesome pathing compared to sc1, you wouldn't really have to anyways. There is no reason not to wall in any matchup as terran.
-Repair is fucking awesome. You can heal basically everything you get with workers all day, and really freaking fast in sc2.
-Bunkers are completely amazing now that they're salvagable. You can get as many as you need with marines in them to hold off an attack and then if you want your money back just salvage them.
-Siege tanks outrange everything ever. Especially if you get siege mode. It doesn't matter how many units he has if he can't hit your tank because you have a wall in the way.
The only thing that scares me are those goddamn immortals, but marines chew through their shields pretty fast, and siege tanks outrange them pretty hardcore. I've managed to hold off a 2 immortal + trash attack easily, but a true immortal rush might be difficult. I would say the best thing to do is probably make 2-3 bunkers with marines in them if you scout an early immortal push and just pull scvs and be ready to repair like mad. Minerals don't seem to be a huge concern now that terran has the "push this for more minerals" button.
As for TvZ... haven't really experimented much with FE strats there, but I'll get around to it. Planetary fortress with early Ebay and bunker sounds very viable though. Heck you could probably get away with a no rax FE if they aren't doing a 10 pool. =D
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On February 22 2010 17:31 imBLIND wrote:
Every single game i play, i rely on scouting and using reapers or marine/marauders to counter their army, then teching, then expanding all off of 2 or 3 raxes.
Has anyone found a way to go 1rax tech and still be safe from roach rushes, stalker rushes, or maurader/marine rushes? Getting a tank or banshee could seriously offer terran some choices instead of being forced to get m&m, which is currently the only thing terran can do (besides reaper rushing) and be safe.
So far, these rushes are impossible to stop without building up an army before teching.
If terran could quickly tech to tank and siege mode, we could easily nab an extra expansion and get the additional gas needed to tech to better units with very little fear. 1 siege tank, 4 marauders and a handful of marines can lay waste to a lot more than you think.
Honestly depending on the player, 1 tax tech is quite viable if the opponent is not aggresive. I honestly don't think that you should go 1 rax tech. A 2 rax tech is much safer as you can get enough marines and marrauders to fend off whatever your opponents throw at you. Just stick to MnMs and get your medivacs early. Against toss get your ghosts out once you have enough to defend and against zerg make sure you build enough turrets and get your raven as soon as you can.
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1 rax + wall + bunker -> bansees
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with the new patch, 1rax teching kind of works now...i can get a 2nd rax faster for marine production now.
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EPT
