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Just as standard, before we start id really like to give a big congratulations to our TLMC#14 finalists this time around! Even when we now are going through changes on the WCS/ESL side of things and personally I don't know when those maps will start on rotation, it will be most interesting seeing several of those being played 👀
That out of the way, this thread is mostly dedicated to those that didn't made it to the finals to ask questions about their maps.
Just like always, for the inpatient souls it is very much recommended to first check out previous "Mapping Guidelines" and the TLMC8, 9, 10 & 12 feedback threads before you submit your questions, as I don't have much time and I have to use it where counts.
As an extra note there is my youtube channel where I have been uploading Mapmaking feedback videos for finalists and non-finalists alike, it is highly recommended for y'all to peruse around. This time around there were no videos for the finalists like on TLMC#12, but we do have the Pre-Judging feedback stream right there. And remember, just because we might have not gone over *your specific map*, it doesn't mean that your map might not share issues which were covered there, so be sure to review it!
Worthy mention, Nathanias has made his Reviewing TLMC#14 Finalists freely available, which is an excellent resource on understanding maps from his perspective:
Video unavailable/deleted
Before We Begin
For time reasons, all mappers can ask feedback for 2 maps, id like to give as much feedback as possible, but it is simply not possible for me to cover all maps, in the same manner, avoid asking "what's wrong with map X", instead focus on what areas you believe are problematic, this way we will save time and not need to spend +3 months on the Feedback Thread again -.-;
Submit your questions on the following fashion:
- Map Name
- Category the map was submitted to
- Map Overview
- Specific questions about your map
Just like on TLMC#12 might be videos this time around, there might not! No promises, only hopes and dreams. And in the same fashion, other judges might also join, or might not, it depends on their own personal timeframes.
Gogo
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Lilac
AZG Challenge
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Was the usage of the AZG's interesting and besides defenders advantage being scarce what are some other issues with the map? Also if you're allowed to speak out about it what was the general consensus regarding this map by the judges. I'm sure me and many others would also like to have that question answered as to gauge whether an idea was cool or not.
ooooop; ignore the LoS on the vertical 4th. never meant to leave it there :o
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Acidic Fortress
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After looking over my map myself, knowing both it and Risen Memory were kinda awkward for where I submitted them. As they both were designed to be a hybrid of macro and standard (which may of made it just seem too boring)
But I might as well ask anyways, was the first 3 bases just too easy on this map? Too easy as in effectively securing the highground third in example meant 1 true route into it due to the debris tower on the smaller ramp.
And due to them being slightly too easy was getting a 4th was just easier and kinda boring/problematic against a zerg in example where they can secure 4 bases and not struggle any defense? (just answer both questions as one for Acidic Fortress)
Project Simulent
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I've been trying and trying again to get this layout and theme to work out, I already have concerns like the rush routes being a straight line making the triangle third more risky vs zerg (since they can effectively engage and reinforce the attack on that base without much effort.) And I just had concerns but I will limit it.
Was middle just too boring/provided issues you may see with the layout?
Going along with the middle due to the currently layout the corners kinda exist and could use a rework. So feedback on mid might give me room to change the corners up a bit, without changing up the highgrounds too much.
Thanks for anything you may say! Though I'd love to have feedback on all of my maps besides Urzagol (Literally I just keep slapping stuff onto it because I cant submit 3 macro maps. And I should just move on from it) But the limitation is there for a good reason.
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Caspian Gates
Macro
+ Show Spoiler +
My question would be what did you think about the feature of ultra-narrow gates and how they affect the early game? Was it the feature itself that was potentially problematic or was the rest of the map unappealing?
Moon River
Standard
+ Show Spoiler +
My pre-feedback said that it should be a macro map instead and had some comment about "any feedback that’s provided would heavily clash with either if the map stayed in the Standard Category or if it would be moved to Macro" which isn't exactly useful.
Assuming that it stays a standard map (since after all an in-base natural doesn't of itself mean a map is macro, and tbh those categories are really overemphasized given how inconsistent they are anyways), what feedback is there for it?
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Map: Last Fantasy
Category: Challenge
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Question: Are 3p maps illegal?
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I want to stress that even though I have submitted specific questions about my submissions, I still feel clueless about the defficiencies of my maps and want to have more general feedback as opposed to just the questions answered.
Eleventh Dragon Frontier
Rush
+ Show Spoiler +
Did the lack of angular (counter clockwise) expansion bases prove problematic?
Did the overlord spot coverage of the natural, despite being subtly requested to be removed, affect the performance too significantly?
Did the main size play a role in judgement?
Cheruno 9
Standard
+ Show Spoiler +
Did the lack of angular (counter clockwise) expansion bases prove problematic?
Was the low base density near the player spawns cause for concern?
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Laser Tag
Macro
+ Show Spoiler +
The single rich gas base. Was the distance and rock on the ramp enough to clearly define it as a fourth, or was the map looked down upon for a having a "rich third"?
Spacelab 2020
Macro
+ Show Spoiler +
Did the pocket base kill this layout?
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On March 07 2020 06:00 PolarChibi wrote:Lilac AZG Challenge + Show Spoiler +Was the usage of the AZG's interesting and besides defenders advantage being scarce what are some other issues with the map? Also if you're allowed to speak out about it what was the general consensus regarding this map by the judges. I'm sure me and many others would also like to have that question answered as to gauge whether an idea was cool or not. ooooop; ignore the LoS on the vertical 4th. never meant to leave it there :o
The main thing that made the map not perform well and it is quite serious is just how hard to take and secure the third bases are for Protoss and Terran players, they are simply or too far away, or too exposed. I mentioned it some on the pre-judging feedback, and the changes weren't aggressive enough to the judges, specially T and P ones
When it comes to AZG's, they are alright, we had a finalist map that also had a similar set up, tho in the same vein as the Third bases being too exposed, some of the AZG's make the problem worse, specifically that one that's right in front of the passage between the 6/12 oclock lowground third bases and the natural bases. AZG's spur aggression, and that AZG in particular is on a spot which is all too strategically important to give such advantage to the attacker over the defender
When it comes to how it was received, it had a lukewarm reception at best, the distance issues with the thirds, general size, how open bases beyond the "core" (Main, nat, alternative thirds) bases are makes the map not very welcome on an era where there are heightened concerns about Zerg balance and dominance over the map pool
But yeah, the idea is cool, which is why there's a finalist with a similar set up in the finalist*, but the execution issues were too much for this particular map
* I meant for the center area!
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Cryostation
Standard category
+ Show Spoiler +
One of my biggest concerns was the placement of the triangular third. The long distance between natural and third was to be compensated by having only one true attack path that required quite the commitment and also due to the long rotation distance between natural and triangular. There was also a more standard third as an alternative. Was it dismissed because of this area or were there other concerns?
What did judges think of the feature where one of the gases could be used to reduce number of structures needed to wall off the natural?
Corrosive Sky
Rush category
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Basically want to know what the biggest issue with the map was. If it has to do with the category, why and would it better fit into standard? I'd really like to know any comments made during the judging discussions.
Thank you!
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In Absentia - Rush
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Did the judges dislike any particular feature, such as the narrow bridges / restricted pathing, or was it just a case of "other maps happened to score slightly higher"?
Monument of the Makers - Challenge
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Did this even make it anywhere near the finalists? Were there legitimate gameplay concerns or was it just too unusual looking?
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I don't really know whtch maps to ask about. I mostly want to know if maps should be reworked and continued for next TLMC or just abandoned. Thus, I would like to get feedback for the two maps with the best score that I submitted: Seaside Resort (Macro), Polar Night Keep (Macro) and Ion Fazekath (Standard). Generally I want to now what were the biggest issues or worries even while the maps got are really standard with layout and were okay based on feedback. For the macro maps I want to now if they being bigger than guidelines preferred actually had effect on the grade or where they okay?
If I have to name the two maps instead of getting the two best, then Seaside Resort and Polar Night Keep. I will think for a few more specific questions about the maps and updated this reply.
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Kill Switch - Rush
Overview: + Show Spoiler +
Specific questions about your map:
Was it maybe the rush distance being too short, even for a rush map? Was the fourth base maybe too hard to secure?
Shamrock Fane - Standard
Overview: + Show Spoiler +
Specific questions about your map:
Was it maybe downvoted because of distracting texturing, or was it just not good enough in general?
cheers
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Did Acqueducts not fare wall because of the low amount of paths in the middle? Do you think adding a path where i painted in green would help?
I also removed the pillar in the mid to open up that area.
I'd put rocks (in brown) on the ramp to lower the amounts of paths at the beginning of the game.
+ Show Spoiler +
__________
Were there too many los blockers on Waterfall?
+ Show Spoiler +
And for Ultra Kompaktor i shouldn't have put that Xelnaga Tower 
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Quicksand
+ Show Spoiler +
not 100% sure what to ask specifically.
Main reasons it didn't make finalist? (If it even came near finalist which i do want to know)
Thoughts about the mineral wall and if the los blockers were even needed?
map not interesting enough?
was the base in the rush path too unappealing? which as a result means there's one real choice of third which performs worse with the judges?
I honestly don't know
obviously you don't have to answer all of them especially if they don't apply I'm not even sure what's worth asking tbh.
Hellfire
+ Show Spoiler +
Were the tight chokes overkill? distances between opposing sides bases too short?
any concerns in general? things other rush maps executed better that this didn't/ Just in general if there was a way to tweak or better execute the same thing?
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@CharactR feedback about your second map: (with all due respect to religion) Maybe because we're in a sci-fi game, and not a religion based game, the name is not fitting anywhere here, whatsoever.As unfitting as the teddybear zoo in D3 as secret level...
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On March 31 2020 07:50 Kertorak wrote:
@CharactR feedback about your second map: (with all due respect to religion) Maybe because we're in a sci-fi game, and not a religion based game, the name is not fitting anywhere here, whatsoever.As unfitting as the teddybear zoo in D3 as secret level...
Really?  Does it also bother you that in-game goliaths fire Hellfire Missiles?
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On March 07 2020 06:11 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Caspian Gates Macro + Show Spoiler +My question would be what did you think about the feature of ultra-narrow gates and how they affect the early game? Was it the feature itself that was potentially problematic or was the rest of the map unappealing?
Yeah, it most certainly was the gates feature the one that got in the way
The implementation is simply too aggressive for this map, the gates are excessively close to high contention spots such as the Nat base entrances. The levels of potential problems is just too high, TvZ, TvP timing attacks would wreck just so hard. Tho ZvP from my perspective in the lategame could be quite interesting, seeing which race can overcome the gates the best, akin to RQM's map but for that to happen the ones in the entrance to the Nat and Third have to be changed
The rest of the map is quite standard if not dull, from that angle it would work alright and personally I would not say no to bigger layout changes
On March 07 2020 06:11 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Moon River Standard + Show Spoiler +My pre-feedback said that it should be a macro map instead and had some comment about "any feedback that’s provided would heavily clash with either if the map stayed in the Standard Category or if it would be moved to Macro" which isn't exactly useful. Assuming that it stays a standard map (since after all an in-base natural doesn't of itself mean a map is macro, and tbh those categories are really overemphasized given how inconsistent they are anyways), what feedback is there for it? The feedback for it is that this sort of layouts don't really work, terrans would insta veto in the judging process it and they do, same with protoss players in PvZ for example
The issue is that the natural bases now days are simply too strategically important to be left in such an exposed way, it makes the players excessively uncomfortable and it is quite funny that it has to be me the one saying that given how much I personally enjoyed creating those kind of scenarios, but the way the TLMC is set up I don't see this map in particular making it pass the first state judges to the finalists let alone being picked by the playerbase unless there were an extreme "taste swing" towards heavily non-standard layouts
The feedback that I wrote is meant on the sense that standard maps are generally seen as maps which allow a wide variety of strategies as a base level without strengthening certain strats in the metagame bubble over others, this map in particular strengthens 2 base allins quite a bit and with the farther away third being what it is, it becomes almost a coin toss which ever direction youd like to make the map go. If you leave the third where it is (as you did) then it is a medium sized non-standard map which we can ballpark into the TLMC Standard category, but if you change it to be where the "natural" ought to be layout wise, then the map transforms into a rather heavily macro map. Hopefully it is more or less understandable where I'm going. The map is currently on the knife edge between categories and which ever change you make to them will push it on either direction. And because of that and the fact that it is not my position as pre-feedback giver to tell you which direction your map "ought" to go I considered it irresponsible to tell you X or Y
So yeah, overall feedback might be, change the in-main nat to a 6 min 1 normal geyser, create a new full base where the natural "ought" to be and change the current third base to a ~4-6 mins and 1hyg or 1 normal geyser
The center is also quite dull, personally id very much recommend trying other types of center with the 3 "daybreak-esq" paths but in a more interesting way than just the bridges there and by that I mean try things like Dreamcatcher's center, Terraform, Oxyde (BW map), Overwatch (Neg0 BW map)
Overall I have always liked the "Ion" layouts, I just find them cool mapmaking wise and Id be super interested in what ideas you can create to make them work better (if at all on the current metagame)
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On March 07 2020 07:30 Timmay wrote:Map: Last Fantasy Category: Challenge + Show Spoiler +Question: Are 3p maps illegal?
Yes, yes they are ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/myMWm7a.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/46NP9eV.png)
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On March 07 2020 07:40 Sanglune wrote:I want to stress that even though I have submitted specific questions about my submissions, I still feel clueless about the defficiencies of my maps and want to have more general feedback as opposed to just the questions answered. Eleventh Dragon Frontier Rush + Show Spoiler +Did the lack of angular (counter clockwise) expansion bases prove problematic? Did the overlord spot coverage of the natural, despite being subtly requested to be removed, affect the performance too significantly? Did the main size play a role in judgement?
Overlord pods don't really affect the performance of maps significantly, It is the layers upon layers of features which end up benefiting certain races over others which create issues
Example here is mostly the overall openness of the map which ended up being its demise, and I don't say that on "make maps tighter overall" but add more meaningful and strong choke-points to it so players armies can't be surrounding as easily or just incentivize players to move out without featuring counter attacks to their third bases. Main base size is certainly an issue, specially with modern strong Nydus play, albeit it has been less of a problem now days it still remains a concern. Larger air space being main bases is also another point, in order to allow more harassment from T or P vs Z.
When it comes to implementation of cool chokepoints id very much recommend you to look at some BW maps like Bloody Ridge's center. Also, be sure to message Jason, Pig, Winter or other streamers or progamers about general feedback, maybe not for this map but the next one, or if you make changes to it, as they are generally very warm about it
On March 07 2020 07:40 Sanglune wrote:Cheruno 9 Standard + Show Spoiler +Did the lack of angular (counter clockwise) expansion bases prove problematic? Was the low base density near the player spawns cause for concern?
I would recommend very much to start adding second reaper entrances to your main bases, as that is a concern players have spoken about. It is not just make a single entrance wallable with +2 buildings, it is a broader issue than that as scouting is important for T just like any other race
Generally from my perspective Cheruno has very similar issues than 11th Dragon with only minor changes such as the center and slightly more terrain height variation, you are currently at that step where it is needed to take the next step towards polishing the standard layouts by adding more non-standard features to them and make them stand out, so as you were saying from my perspective it is fairly normal that you feel kind of lost atm. Also, be sure to take ideas from older flavorful BW maps
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On March 31 2020 07:50 Kertorak wrote:
@CharactR feedback about your second map: (with all due respect to religion) Maybe because we're in a sci-fi game, and not a religion based game, the name is not fitting anywhere here, whatsoever.As unfitting as the teddybear zoo in D3 as secret level...
Hellfire missiles, Hellbats, Hellions, there's literally a mission in wings of liberty called "The Gates of Hell"
, there's a campaign upgrade for missile turrets called Hellstorm batteries, One of the songs in the wings soundtrack is called Heavens Devils, there's another mission called "The Devils Playground", Need I continue? I Highly Doubt a map being called Hellfire would be an issue,
Also is just a map name that describes the hellscape that is that map.
what does religion have to do with it other than the fact it has hell in the name?
I'm done,I mean...
Hell, it's about time!
edit: Also Doom would like to have a word with you.
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