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Colossus
... it is nearly ready.
However, I have a problem with selecting a different effect depending on a research. I know how to use Requirements with Abilities, but not Effects.
With the "Extended Thermal Lance" upgrade, a different effect - with different beam target offsets - should be used. Any ideas how to implement it?
Void Ray
I think your suggestion, egrimm, is quite similar except that it is an activated ability and gives an attack range buff.
I am not sure if that activation is really needed. Charging up on a small unit is not going really going to work, because it is going to die soon anyway and alignment will reset (as by yours and mine suggestion)
If you manually targeting big units for VRs, you are already microing it. I don't think you need a different button than A to do this thing.
In general, I would like to avoid the LotV trap of "activated ability on every unit!"
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On August 12 2015 07:27 egrimm wrote:Void Ray suggestion: I was thinking about the role of VR and it seems that it supposed to be good against big, armored targets - Broodlords, Ultralisks, Carriers, BCs, Thors etc also including buildings. In reality instead of being surgical units snipeing key targets VR in HotS are all around main fighters as You both mentioned above. We should rework VR to make really important what they target and force Protoss players to be more precise with them. Proposal: - Make VR ability "Prismatic Alignment" be able to cast on unit instead of straight stim-like buff.
- PA increases VR damage against targeted unit with every second VR is attacking. In other words the longer VR is attacking the more dps it inflicts.
- PA is now channel-like ability. If protoss players will attack with VR with activated PA, other unit - it stops to work and cooldown starts. Also if targeted unit move out or range of VR - PA stops. If targeted unit dies it stops etc.
- VR has 6 range by default. To help to snipe key units more range might be needed. That's why I suggest for PA to increase also range of VR by 2-3 for duration of PA.
- Cast Range = VR default range + 2-3 as mentioned above.
- Also if needed, "leash" range (not sure about the name?) might be also increased.
- **We might try to allow PA to also target structures but it'd probably be hard to balance
This changes would promote selecting individual Void Rays to cast Prismatic Alignment on key big units. There would be more decisons: do I want to select all my VR to kill 1 key unit very fast OR I want to use whole potential and target enemys units with VR in 1:1 ratio? Additionally You might aslo use PA against smaller units like Roach/Marauder/Hydra and still benefit to small extent. Void Ray might become more specialized unit and hopefully replace Tempest as a unit designed to deal with broodlords/colossus/other massive units.
The problem with this is that it would become a hard counter. This ability would probably end up making the opponent simply not build big units because they would get sniped by hard counter Void Rays.
In the end neither big units nor Void Rays would be used because Void Rays would suck against anything else.
If you want a unit to be good it has to be universally useable. Not just useable in one specialized situation. At the same time it still has to have an obvious flaw that can be abused and not only if your opponent screws up.
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On August 13 2015 00:27 BlackLilium wrote:
However, I have a problem with selecting a different effect depending on a research. I know how to use Requirements with Abilities, but not Effects.
With the "Extended Thermal Lance" upgrade, a different effect - with different beam target offsets - should be used. Any ideas how to implement it?
There's 'Player Requirement' validator type.
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On August 13 2015 00:27 BlackLilium wrote:
Colossus
... it is nearly ready.
However, I have a problem with selecting a different effect depending on a research. I know how to use Requirements with Abilities, but not Effects.
With the "Extended Thermal Lance" upgrade, a different effect - with different beam target offsets - should be used. Any ideas how to implement it?
Void Ray
I think your suggestion, egrimm, is quite similar except that it is an activated ability and gives an attack range buff.
I am not sure if that activation is really needed. Charging up on a small unit is not going really going to work, because it is going to die soon anyway and alignment will reset (as by yours and mine suggestion)
If you manually targeting big units for VRs, you are already microing it. I don't think you need a different button than A to do this thing.
In general, I would like to avoid the LotV trap of "activated ability on every unit!"
Hmm, What I wanted to achieve is to somehow take over Tempest role by Void Ray to deal with BL/colossus but in more moderate way. Both units are supposed to be good against single targets however as we've seen in WoL VR weren't sufficient to deal with above-mentioned units which resulted in BL+infestor in PvZ and "War of Worlds" in PvP and then in HotS Tempest was introduced. However Tempest is too big, has too many hp and absurdly long range with little dps while also being really slow and clunky. The Void ray can be good replacement with proper tweaking.
I agree that yours idea and mine are quite similar actually. The difference is the range buff when ability is used which may be necessary if we want VR to battle sufficiently against key, big units. If that doesn't prove to be a problem and additional range isn't needed then I believe yours idea is more elegant and simple, as I am also not a big fan of "activated ability on every unit!" 
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On August 13 2015 02:41 egrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2015 00:27 BlackLilium wrote:
Colossus
... it is nearly ready.
However, I have a problem with selecting a different effect depending on a research. I know how to use Requirements with Abilities, but not Effects.
With the "Extended Thermal Lance" upgrade, a different effect - with different beam target offsets - should be used. Any ideas how to implement it?
Void Ray
I think your suggestion, egrimm, is quite similar except that it is an activated ability and gives an attack range buff.
I am not sure if that activation is really needed. Charging up on a small unit is not going really going to work, because it is going to die soon anyway and alignment will reset (as by yours and mine suggestion)
If you manually targeting big units for VRs, you are already microing it. I don't think you need a different button than A to do this thing.
In general, I would like to avoid the LotV trap of "activated ability on every unit!" Hmm, What I wanted to achieve is to somehow take over Tempest role by Void Ray to deal with BL/colossus but in more moderate way. Both units are supposed to be good against single targets however as we've seen in WoL VR weren't sufficient to deal with above-mentioned units which resulted in BL+infestor in PvZ and "War of Worlds" in PvP and then in HotS Tempest was introduced. However Tempest is too big, has too many hp and absurdly long range with little dps while also being really slow and clunky. The Void ray can be good replacement with proper tweaking.
That may be true, but you would not make it any better by introducing a hard counter. Instead, make BL+Infestor less of a super overpowered composition and give the Void Ray a proper role (or remove it altogether).
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On August 13 2015 01:30 PurpleStreak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2015 00:27 BlackLilium wrote:
However, I have a problem with selecting a different effect depending on a research. I know how to use Requirements with Abilities, but not Effects.
With the "Extended Thermal Lance" upgrade, a different effect - with different beam target offsets - should be used. Any ideas how to implement it?
There's 'Player Requirement' validator type.
Yep, that did the trick. Thanks!
Experimental Branch Changes
Colossus:
- Beams now scorch the ground in the Colossus view direction, rather than perpendicularly (similar to Lurker attack)
- Beam scorches earth at distances 2 to 6, regardless of how far the target is
- Extended Thermal Lance increase the maximum scorching range to 9
- Beam impact movement speed reduced: 10/s -> 5/s
- Fire cooldown: 1.65s -> 2.2s
- Minimum fire range: 0 -> 2
Single target DPS is effectively reduced by 25%, but the beam has now a potential to hit much more targets if they are clumped one behind another. At the same time, at higher distances, the opponent has more chances to avoid the beam.
Ultimately, the Colossus may play quite differently than in HotS. Some serious testing will be required to conclude if they should be made stronger or weaker.
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Experimental Branch Changes
Void Ray:
- Charge-up mechanic reintroduced, but resets every time target is changed.
- Base damage: 6+4 vs Armored -> 5+3 vs Armored
- Three charge levels: 5+3, 7+5, 9+7
- Charge increase after 1.8s (3 damage cycles)
- Current damage output is shown properly in the UI
Animation is somewhat wonky and could use some help with it 
VRs vs Stalkers - stalkers are much better now that they are not armored. In a 1:2 scenario they beat VRs quite easily - even in great numbers and no micro/blink (e.g. 30VR vs 60 stalkers)
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What is your thought about macro mechanics? Now that even blizzard has realized that they are bad you may want to copy their decision and cut them out.
The best solution I have yet read about the zerg larva problem is to make the inject larva ability a channeled ability that drains energy periodically and speeds up the larva generation at the hatchery. This would make you want to keep 1 queen per hatchery but additional queens can still be used for creep tumors and transfusion.
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On August 17 2015 19:40 RoomOfMush wrote:
What is your thought about macro mechanics? Now that even blizzard has realized that they are bad you may want to copy their decision and cut them out.
The best solution I have yet read about the zerg larva problem is to make the inject larva ability a channeled ability that drains energy periodically and speeds up the larva generation at the hatchery. This would make you want to keep 1 queen per hatchery but additional queens can still be used for creep tumors and transfusion.
They are making it in LotV and it is an attempt to fix the problems they encountered, that is:
- Early game income is too fast (12 worker count) compared to army production speed and teching speed. (the macro parametrization I talked about in Strat Chat). By removing/tuning down macro mechanics, the overall income gain over time slows down.
- There are generally too many buttons to click in LotV and even pro are slipping off more and more often, and the game is stepping away from its strategy component.
- It was shown that Inject Larva is the dominant cause for Zerg win or loss, more than any clever army composition or movement.
However, these are - hopefully - not the problems in Starcraft Improved. Moreover, complete removal (case of Chronoboost) is a quick fix which is not necessairly good for the game. As Whitewing points out - it removes the choices and differences between builds of Protoss. The race becomes shallower without it.
I believe the macro mechanics need to be tuned in some way - not removed. Also, please remember, that Blizzard is experimenting. This is a rather big change and they may yet decide to undo it or change it further in different direction.
We may need another look into the Inject Larva. Maybe the channeled solution you propose would be the right one?
However, what I do like about current injections is that they come in waves. You get nothing for 40 seconds, and then you get a burst of larva. You need to make a periodic decission on how to use them - something that is emphasized even further in SCI.
It is a rythm that both defender and the attacker have to account for. It is also something unique for the Zerg. Removing it may make the Zerg shallower in that aspect. Reducing it to produce only 2 larva is also a step with not-so-good direction. If that was the direction, I would prefer the Inject to still give 4 larva, but last 80s and cost twice as much energy. Or 3 larva and 60s. Keep the burst rythm, just a bit slower.
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I played a couple of games as Protoss vs AI to check the changes. Some quick thoughts:
- I LOVE stalkers with reduced dmg point! They feel really nice to micro and move around. My only concern is if they are not too strong in early game, especially against Terran.
- New economy seems good, obviously needs more playtesting. One thing I noticed is that I was a bit mineral starved when taking my natural. Gas started to bank to level of 300-400 whereas minerals where low. Was it me macroing badly or it is expected in HMH model?
- With chronoboost access moved to Cybercore You gather a lot of energy (basically 100/100) before CC finishes and You can use that energy. That doesn't feel good and may lead to some early game issues like difficult early rushes from Protoss. Maybe Nexus should start with 0 energy or only after building CC start gathering energy? Maybe upgrade to nexus like Orbital Command which would give access to energy?
- Reworked Colossus seems nice and interesting. It is hard to say if it is balanced or if changes actually makes playing against colossus more pleasant Need to play against good Terran players to try it out or even in unit tester for bio vs colo interaction only.
Also Is it possible to add map with SCI mod version with implemented changes form experimental branch?
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Thank you for this valuable feedback egrimm!
- I agree that Protoss gets a bit of buff early game with Stalkers, but also is a bit weaker due to lack of MSC. In the end, I think it may be hard to compare. Finally, I don't think SCI Protoss against Terran is stronger than LotV Protoss, is it?
- Mineral income starts to sink below Standard with about 12+ workers. Each worker in 9-16 counts like a half of it actually. You might actually consider cutting a few workers for an earlier expansion. Cutting workers in HMH is less punishing than in Standard (which, in turn, may promote more early game aggression)
- I agree, there is a power spike the moment Cybernetics finishes. A non-proxy non-warpgate rushes may become a thing. I think that is one of the things we should test!
- Colossus may need balancing - probably a damage nerf. However, I hope that with the change we now have a wider window in which Colossus is neither overpowered nor nerfed into oblivion.
SCI mod (all branches) are published as extension mods. You can use them with any map.
The reason there is "SCI - Coda" is for the loading screen only. It is a chance for new players to get a hint on what is going on.
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If there are no further comments specific to recent Colossus and Void Ray changes I will be closing this topic soon.
I think, more than anything this mod now needs some proper testing!
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The Colossus and Void Ray changes have been pushed to Stable branch
General Balancing
There are still several units that we want to look at in the future. The scope of the changes to come however is significantly smaller than those that we have already made. Before proceeding we would like to ensure that the current setup is more-or-less balanced.
It is time to play some games, tune some numbers and talk about everything related...
Also, I would like to take this opportunity and ask if you like the current discussion format?
While things are organized - there are not actually many people saying anything. If you don't like where it is going or have other concerns - please share!
I had a pleasure to have a few fights against egrimm. My current concern is:
- Mieral-to-gas ratio favors gas a bit. On one hand, a 1-gas Protoss becomes more viable, on another - archons become effectively cheaper and a good gas sink. Zealot+Archon is a bit more effective as Colossi do not deal with them so well.
- Gateway production may actually be too fast. This, coupled with the slight buffs can make Protoss dominant in the very early game. Will have to play a couple more games to verify...
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Protoss Early game
There might be slight imbalance in early game in favour of Protoss which is a combination of:
- 0 point damage on stalker - easier to micro
- +10 shields on zealots
- decreased build time on gateway units
- a lot of spare chrono boost after Cyber Core finishes which may be used for boosting production of gateway units.
What should be probably done is reduce the amount of energy available on nexus just after CC has been completed. Right now energy pool approaches 100/100 which is 4 CB = 4 * 10 sec = 40sec reduction which translates into 1 additional gateway unit (4 instead of 3) assuming constant gateway production.
Not sure about specific implementation but it would be good if nexus had 25-50/100 energy when Cyber Core finishes.
Also as BlackLilium said the mineral/gas ratio is disturbed a bit in favour of gas. So some tweaks should be made in gas gathering time.
Toner thoughts/suggestions:
- Force field casting range seems a bit too low as sentries are trying to pass through friendly stalkers and most of the Time they are blocked and cannot cast spell on time. Also sentries have to go in front of army which means they are focused fire almost instantly. I think that casting range should be increased to attack range of stalker: 5->6
- more later
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Experimental Branch Changes
- Gas harvesting time increased by 10%. Workers 1 and 2 have their mining speed reduced by a small percentage. However, the third one is less efficient by about 30%. Total gas mining speed is at around -10% with 3 workers.
- Zealot build time / warpin cooldown: 28s -> 32s
- Stalker build time / warpin cooldown: 32s -> 36s
I do not know how to address the build-up of Chronoboost energy before the Cybernetics Core is available.
Ideally, you should be able to cast zero or one Chronoboost after CC is ready, not 4 of them. Otherwise, CC becomes too much of a power spike.
Options I see:
- Nexus should have no energy at all when the game starts, and it gets enabled only when Cybernetics Core is built.
But what should happen if CC is later destroyed?
- Add a new reserach at CC for Nexus to be able to have energy, or upgrade a Nexus with something that would have energy. That's the Starbow way. We want to avoid this for the sake of similarity to original Starcraft.
- Reduce Nexus energy speed or increase Chronoboost cost. But that will be a nerf!
- Reduce maximum Nexus energy down to 50. Consequnelty, Protoss will have to use the ability more regularly or be punished. Getting the first Cybernetics Core would enable only 2 chronoboosts instead of 4. The downside is that the cost of photon overcharge would have to be reduced to 50 as well.
Force Field got a substantial nerf because of the casting range and it is intended. You can still use it effectively to separate your army from your opponent, e.g. when fighting in melee or trying to retreat. However, it is much harder to separate the opponent army in half.
Still, a range of 5 makes Sentries viable against Roaches. Zerg must remain alert not get his roaches trapped in force-field, but it is much easier to avoid such trap.
With Zealot and Stalker buffs, the FF needs a nerf. At the same time, I believe, the guardian shield is a bit more practical and easier to use.
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On August 21 2015 03:46 BlackLilium wrote:Experimental Branch Changes- Gas harvesting time increased by 10%. Workers 1 and 2 have their mining speed reduced by a small percentage. However, the third one is less efficient by about 30%. Total gas mining speed is at around -10% with 3 workers.
- Zealot build time / warpin cooldown: 28s -> 32s
- Stalker build time / warpin cooldown: 32s -> 36s
I do not know how to address the build-up of Chronoboost energy before the Cybernetics Core is available. Ideally, you should be able to cast zero or one Chronoboost after CC is ready, not 4 of them. Otherwise, CC becomes too much of a power spike. Options I see: - Nexus should have no energy at all when the game starts, and it gets enabled only when Cybernetics Core is built.
But what should happen if CC is later destroyed?
- Add a new reserach at CC for Nexus to be able to have energy, or upgrade a Nexus with something that would have energy. That's the Starbow way. We want to avoid this for the sake of similarity to original Starcraft.
- Reduce Nexus energy speed or increase Chronoboost cost. But that will be a nerf!
- Reduce maximum Nexus energy down to 50. Consequnelty, Protoss will have to use the ability more regularly or be punished. Getting the first Cybernetics Core would enable only 2 chronoboosts instead of 4. The downside is that the cost of photon overcharge would have to be reduced to 50 as well.
All changes look good imho.
What comes to chrono boost proposals it is hard to choose as all of them have pros and cons. I am more of a fan of first and second ideas as they do not change universal mechanics like speed of energy regenaration or the max energy on buildings. I always liked starbow idea as it is similar to Terran's CC -> OC upgrade and also Gateway -> Warpgate transformation for Protoss. However that solution quite heavily differs from original sc2 which SCI tries to avoid. 1st idea, maybe not that elegant as 2nd, seems nice and simple. I think that even if CC would be destroyed, nexus should be able to cast chrono boost and PO (not sure if it works like that currently).
Force Field got a substantial nerf because of the casting range and it is intended. You can still use it effectively to separate your army from your opponent, e.g. when fighting in melee or trying to retreat. However, it is much harder to separate the opponent army in half.
Still, a range of 5 makes Sentries viable against Roaches. Zerg must remain alert not get his roaches trapped in force-field, but it is much easier to avoid such trap.
With Zealot and Stalker buffs, the FF needs a nerf. At the same time, I believe, the guardian shield is a bit more practical and easier to use.
I agree about the nerf to FF. Against zerg range reduction is fine as roaches have attack range of only 3 and zerglings are melee. However against stalkers or marine/marauders which have 5-6 range sentries are auto focused by AI as they go in front of stalkers trying to cast FF. My short experience is that sentry dies trying to cast FF or just after casting which for really gas heavy unit is quite bad as they should be reusable.
Maybe I just need more practice but right now it is really hard to keep sentries alive especially against Terran that's why I suggested the increase in casting range by 1. It is still less than in sc2 (9 vs 6) and sentry has to be in front rank to cast FF BUT it is not gonna be focused fired automatically by AI however still it would allow for opponent to grab some units and focus sentry manually with a A-click on the unit.
Anyway that's just my feelings, it is hard to say if I'm right after all especially that change is rather minor
About Guardian shield:
I like it that it is casted on ground, works nicely I was thinking that maybe changing the radius to be smaller and energy cost decreased to 50 could be even more interesting as you could use spell a bit more frequently and also not always whole your army will be able to fit in 'the bubble' which would lead to some additional decisions, maybe?
Recall:
The MsC was removed and Photon overcharge moved to nexus. Time Warp wasn't a good ability so I'm not gonna miss it but Recall might actually be added to Nexus after upgrade on Cybernetics Core or Twilight Council or Fleet Beacon depending on how fast access to recall we want to give to Protoss (early/mid/late game).
I suggest Recall having small radius (FF like) and cost of 75 energy. That way You could recall only small portion of army instead of that massive Recalls of Deathballs from HotS. That may promote more skirmishes across the map.
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On August 21 2015 05:37 egrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 03:46 BlackLilium wrote:
Force Field got a substantial nerf because of the casting range and it is intended. You can still use it effectively to separate your army from your opponent, e.g. when fighting in melee or trying to retreat. However, it is much harder to separate the opponent army in half.
Still, a range of 5 makes Sentries viable against Roaches. Zerg must remain alert not get his roaches trapped in force-field, but it is much easier to avoid such trap.
With Zealot and Stalker buffs, the FF needs a nerf. At the same time, I believe, the guardian shield is a bit more practical and easier to use. I agree about the nerf to FF. Against zerg range reduction is fine as roaches have attack range of only 3 and zerglings are melee. However against stalkers or marine/marauders which have 5-6 range sentries are auto focused by AI as they go in front of stalkers trying to cast FF. My short experience is that sentry dies trying to cast FF or just after casting which for really gas heavy unit is quite bad as they should be reusable. Maybe I just need more practice but right now it is really hard to keep sentries alive especially against Terran that's why I suggested the increase in casting range by 1. It is still less than in sc2 (9 vs 6) and sentry has to be in front rank to cast FF BUT it is not gonna be focused fired automatically by AI however still it would allow for opponent to grab some units and focus sentry manually with a A-click on the unit. Anyway that's just my feelings, it is hard to say if I'm right after all especially that change is rather minor
I think it depends what you want to do with forcefields.
If you want to cast on enemy units, you will have to bring that sentry on the front and it will be hard to survive.
However, you can still cast FFs right in front of your own army, e.g. to block of melee or prepare for retreat.
Forcie fields become more situational spell, rather than good for all must-have ability.
On August 21 2015 05:37 egrimm wrote:
Recall:
The MsC was removed and Photon overcharge moved to nexus. Time Warp wasn't a good ability so I'm not gonna miss it but Recall might actually be added to Nexus after upgrade on Cybernetics Core or Twilight Council or Fleet Beacon depending on how fast access to recall we want to give to Protoss (early/mid/late game).
I suggest Recall having small radius (FF like) and cost of 75 energy. That way You could recall only small portion of army instead of that massive Recalls of Deathballs from HotS. That may promote more skirmishes across the map.
Both Time Warp and Mass Recall are available in the Mothership itself. You are not going to see these spells early game, but at later stages, when you go 4+ bases - why not?
In addition, Motherships can be massed, allowing - for example - Protoss to have not 1 but 2 armies with recall. I don't expect huge numbers of Motherships though, simply because of the price.
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Are you still working on this?
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Still playtesting, but given less feedback - probably due to major swings in LotV itself - I spend a bit less time now than before.
I am thinking that AA capability of Immortal should be removed. It does not really add much as the unit is slow anyway.
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I go in the "SC Improved" chat channel every time I log on, but I've never seen anyone in there.
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EPT
