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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
On May 29 2013 06:58 Qikz wrote: I think the bottom/top bits were better with the previous rocks as it still allowed small units entry, where as now even big units can take that path early. It wasn't actually blocking any ground units before, it was just a small choke (analogous to a 2x2 size or a 1ramp). | ||
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Samro225am
Germany982 Posts
On May 29 2013 06:58 Qikz wrote: I think the bottom/top bits were better with the previous rocks as it still allowed small units entry, where as now even big units can take that path early. thanks for the input! Do you judge from overview/theory or did you have a chance to play the updated streamlined version? we had the impression the rocks made that part fiddly to an extent it hurt. I hope this version is not too simplistic for your likes  On May 29 2013 06:40 EatThePath wrote: I like the changes too.  ^vert nat2nat is it really that small? I think it's worth trying given the map as a whole, how the 3rds are in those positions, and that will only be 1/3 of the time. By eyeball it looks okay, but still cause for a little anxiety. We shall see! I would like to test. Map is definitely better for the simplification and adjusted proportions and slightly bigger distances. Really good example of iterating on feedback. All the rock towers seem really important in the applicable spawns, which is very cool. Now am I thinking about possible watchtower setups, haha. It's totally fine without any, though. go ahead and test it. It should be up on NA as well. Search for TLMC. | ||
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Fatam
1986 Posts
Either way, whether you want to use 28 or 32 as your official number, I think it's worth questioning/having a plan B ready in case it becomes a problem.. Especially considering the nat is behind the main ramp so the main ramp to main ramp is essentially the same distance as the nat choke-> nat choke.. it's a very, very short rush. I think (were it to win TLMC and make it to ladder) it would be the shortest nat-nat / main-main ever in the ladder pool other than entombed valley horizontal spawns (which most ppl agree were bad) and a couple beta maps. I'm actually not trying to bash the map too badly though, other than that problem I think the map is really cool, I like a lot of the ideas. Even though the rush for vert spawns is short I like the dual paths there, also. | ||
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Samro225am
Germany982 Posts
On May 29 2013 09:56 Fatam wrote: Yeah definitely not trying to put false #s up. I remeasured from the flower adjacent to the main ramp (which is a debatable spot to measure from since the choke is narrower farther forward so it is quite conceivable that people would wall-off there) and got 32. If you add 2-3 seconds to each side (by measuring from the forward, narrower spot on the choke) it is easy to see how I got 26-28. Either way, whether you want to use 28 or 32 as your official number, I think it's worth questioning/having a plan B ready in case it becomes a problem.. Especially considering the nat is behind the main ramp so the main ramp to main ramp is essentially the same distance as the nat choke-> nat choke.. it's a very, very short rush. I think (were it to win TLMC and make it to ladder) it would be the shortest nat-nat / main-main ever in the ladder pool other than entombed valley horizontal spawns (which most ppl agree were bad) and a couple beta maps. I'm actually not trying to bash the map too badly though, other than that problem I think the map is really cool, I like a lot of the ideas. Even though the rush for vert spawns is short I like the dual paths there, also. it is nice to you have so much interest in the map and show your support here. yet we are obviously monitoring the 32sec rush distance and make changes if needed before TLOpen. the solutions for it are +2/4/6 seconds with rocks on the near side of the ramp or/and extra height to the map. if we feel okay without these changes after having seen more games i am more than happy though. | ||
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
The most dangerous part about it, imo, is the situation that players might have to play overly safe on the chance that the spawns are vertical and the opponent is doing something very fast and cheesy which can't be stopped in vertical positions if you play greedy, before scouting. Of course, you could also have a build that delays the greedy decision until scouting, and you can always scout vertical first. | ||
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FlyingBeer
United States262 Posts
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Fatam
1986 Posts
On May 29 2013 15:42 EatThePath wrote: If 32 is okay, I'm not sure what timing breaks at 4 seconds sooner. Did we ever establish that 32 is ok? I mean, it might be but I don't think we can say that for sure yet. I sort of hope so, as I think the map is in a pretty good place right now and it would be unfortunate to have to mess with things. I also think that can be a dangerous way to think (that 28 is ok because 32 is ok). Cuz then you can be like "well 28 is ok, so 24 is ok".. etc. - at some point you obviously have to draw the line. | ||
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Samro225am
Germany982 Posts
On May 29 2013 16:40 Fatam wrote: Did we ever establish that 32 is ok? I mean, it might be but I don't think we can say that for sure yet. I sort of hope so, as I think the map is in a pretty good place right now and it would be unfortunate to have to mess with things. I also think that can be a dangerous way to think (that 28 is ok because 32 is ok). Cuz then you can be like "well 28 is ok, so 24 is ok".. etc. - at some point you obviously have to draw the line. i think the distance is crucial, but you are making a strange argument here. nobody says -2 is okay and another -2 is okay. Additionally each map feature needs to be evaluated in its context, similar to what EatThePath wrote: On May 29 2013 15:42 EatThePath wrote: If 32 is okay, I'm not sure what timing breaks at 4 seconds sooner. Also, the comparison to entombed is a good starting point but of limited use since the 3rd was also even closer to the opponent, and here in vertical spawns the 3rd actively pulls the players farther apart and farther away from the shortest route. The destructible rocks also add a few seconds I assume. What is described here is something I am sure we will experience in many games: On May 29 2013 15:42 EatThePath wrote: The most dangerous part about it, imo, is the situation that players might have to play overly safe on the chance that the spawns are vertical and the opponent is doing something very fast and cheesy which can't be stopped in vertical positions if you play greedy, before scouting. Of course, you could also have a build that delays the greedy decision until scouting, and you can always scout vertical first. It just happens when players are challenged with something that diverges from "daybreak clones". We need to play and observe games and give players and the map a chance to play out this way or another. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12041 Posts
On May 29 2013 07:01 EatThePath wrote: It wasn't actually blocking any ground units before, it was just a small choke (analogous to a 2x2 size or a 1ramp). I played it and I'm pretty sure my tanks couldn't get up the ramp :p Either way doesn't matter now. I want to get to play this but I'm a bit busy at the moment, hopefully it'll end up on ladder and I can play it more frequently/easily! :D | ||
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
On May 29 2013 22:41 Qikz wrote: I played it and I'm pretty sure my tanks couldn't get up the ramp :p Either way doesn't matter now. I want to get to play this but I'm a bit busy at the moment, hopefully it'll end up on ladder and I can play it more frequently/easily! :D Oh I might be wrong then.  About rush distance... there's definitely a "too close" that just makes for imbalance, regardless of intervening terrain. In that kind of situation, the mere threat of an attack abusing the close distance forces the blind response, which puts that player behind regardless of whether the attack is carried out. This kind of "for free" advantage is the real culprit imo, since I assume you can hold 99% of attacks if you know which one it is and players figure it out eventually. This also means that determining imbalance is a lot harder than "does zerg always die to a marauder hellbat push" in the first 2 weeks of a map. I have no idea if 32 is okay. It is borderline by current standards but it was average at one point. HotS competition maps so far have used the forced macro overly conservative nat2nat developed in WoL and I don't remember any maps in beta that really pushed the nat2nat on the short side. There are certain things like immortal sentry all-in that will be too strong at short distance regardless of HotS changes but we don't actually know what those are. Surely worth pushing the limits imo. | ||
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SidianTheBard
United States2475 Posts
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Fatam
1986 Posts
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Samro225am
Germany982 Posts
edit: this change will be tested before TLOpen. All other changes of 1.1 will be kept. | ||
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Samro225am
Germany982 Posts
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Samro225am
Germany982 Posts
we want to stick with the design of the map unless games prove that changes are needed. the current setup allows three distinctively different rush distances. The closest distance can be abused in the sense that an aggressive undetected cheese will make lots of damage, but so far it seems like many things are defendable and even on close spawn games that make it through the first minutes have a good chance to actually develop macro games. | ||
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Samro225am
Germany982 Posts
Why I think it deserves your vote: - lefix says it is the best - most possibilities from agression to macro - change the Terrain by taking Down Rocks Or Add collabsable Rock towers - no Features that Force specific tactics beside scouting - finally all spawn | ||
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Fatam
1986 Posts
- no Features that Force specific tactics beside scouting I think this is a big one. A lot of the other maps basically force zerg to go muta which imo is kind of lame / would get boring very quickly. | ||
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
On June 09 2013 02:34 Fatam wrote: I think this is a big one. A lot of the other maps basically force zerg to go muta which imo is kind of lame / would get boring very quickly. Yeah, I agree. However for this map, the threat of a very close rush distance spawn actually probably does force certain build orders unless you are willing to gamble. But the map overall does not heavily favor or prevent any style. | ||
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
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