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On August 27 2013 17:42 Sumadin wrote:
Seriously we do not need another Metropolis. That is what happens when Blizzard just sends community maps into the ladder without any testing or adjustments. Which is why i am happy that they clearly bothers to adjust this one. Yeh, imagine what happens if Blizz just put Atlas in the ladder because the entire community hyped it with its (thusfar) massive PvZ and TvZ imbalance.
Seriously, the mapping community has hyped maps before which turned out supremely imbalanced such as Korhal Compound.
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On August 27 2013 17:47 SiskosGoatee wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 17:42 Sumadin wrote:
Seriously we do not need another Metropolis. That is what happens when Blizzard just sends community maps into the ladder without any testing or adjustments. Which is why i am happy that they clearly bothers to adjust this one. Yeh, imagine what happens if Blizz just put Atlas in the ladder because the entire community hyped it with its (thusfar) massive PvZ and TvZ imbalance. Seriously, the mapping community has hyped maps before which turned out supremely imbalanced such as Korhal Compound.
Are you talking about the fact that Korhal Compound was number 1 in the staff vote and only 7th in the community vote? Becuase if we relied on the community, we'd be playing on Haven's Lagoon instead.
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I'm relying on the fact that it got in the top 8 at all to be voted on even though it turned out to be a balance disaster in PvZ.
I have no idea about Heaven's lagoon, the map is untested, it's hard to say anything about its balance. KC however was quickly dropped from tournament and ladder play due to its pretty dismal PvZ winrates.
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On August 27 2013 18:25 SiskosGoatee wrote:
I'm relying on the fact that it got in the top 8 at all to be voted on even though it turned out to be a balance disaster in PvZ.
I have no idea about Heaven's lagoon, the map is untested, it's hard to say anything about its balance. KC however was quickly dropped from tournament and ladder play due to its pretty dismal PvZ winrates.
Both maps got the ~same amount of testing (by the judges) before being put for vote. The fact that Korhal Compoud (ladder edition with Blizzard changes) showed a 62% PvZ (actually 19-7 in favor of Zerg in tournaments) after thousands of ladder games (Cloud Kingdom had a 70% PvT winrate) doesn't tell us that any of the other map submissions would have been any better.
Your whole argument is based on the possibilty that one of the other hundreds of maps could be more balanced. But unless the map gets on ladder / in tournaments, it will never be extensively tested. Why can't you say anything about Haven's Lagoon? Because it was never in ladder. So does it rightfully belong in the top 8 to be voted for? And why would Korhal Compound not? Both the judges and the community made their votes obviously before Korhal Compound got into ladder.
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I was actually referring to the performance of Metropolis, even through it was quite terribly balanced aswell.
This is not something that tournaments will test for us, as they run on High class PCs only. But every ladder map needs to run smoothly on every level of machine down to the minimum Hardware requirements (With fitting Graphic settings ofc). As you might remember Metropolis didn't quite fit that requirement, and caused lag on every level of machine, which spawned a ton of controversies including MLG renmoving its islands and its depots getting accidently removed during one of the countless attempts to fix the lag issues. Worst POS map ever and this got a Ladder spot, because Blizzard didn't test their stuff.
Well now they do, and demand adjustments for the sake of performance and balance it would seem. I don't want it any other way really.
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I haven't checked the LE (which should be even easier on machines), but on my version there are only ~1000 doodads compared to Cloud Kingdoms ~2000. If you could run CK then Yeonsu should be more than easy.
Edit: comparing to metropolis there are like one hundredth of the amount of lights...
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The problem with Metro is that it used thousands of doodads that had lights and moving parts attached. That's not the same thing as having thousands of rocks and trees. Honestly there have only been a couple things that really set community map making back Metro was one of them and the other was probably Vicious both of which were unfortunate and mostly unforseeable. The rest of what has been holding the community back has just been the environment where players want to stick to the familiar and the fact that Blizzard set up the ladder and custom games in such a way that you have no choice of maps to play on. People are suggesting that the quality of maps is the problem and that just shows what a huge lack of understanding still exists about melee maps.
On August 27 2013 17:39 SiskosGoatee wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 17:22 Ragoo wrote:On August 27 2013 15:34 SidianTheBard wrote:
Now what does Ragoo does 24/7? Yeah...Bitch constantly. First of all I wasn't even complaining about this so much, altho I'm quite disappointed with the removal of the islands cos I think they could have been used (much more so than on something like Metropolis where the islands were redundant). Secondly you make it sound like there is nothing to complain about in mapmaking. Yes because everything is goin soo well, foreign mapmakers totally have the same chances as Koreans, map pools are really well thought out by tournaments, map rotation is really good, Blizzard has gotten really good at mapmaking and I'm glad they are still introducing new maps and every good mapmaker who has put in hundreds of hours into mapmaking has gotten what he deserves so far. Clearly, I shouldn't have anythin to complain about in mapmaking. The issue is the dual standard people in this community hold Blizzard to. If someone came here and posted Condemned Ridge and Blizzard never made it the reception would be a lot warmer than the 'omfg, terrible map against from Blizzard' that people like to put up with. People have decided that everything Blizzard makes is shit before they see it and it colours their perception. I'm pretty sure that if it would go blindly and people wouldn't know the author then rating of maps would go in supremely different directions.
Pretty sure the reaction would be something like "Too big, and too hard for a toss to take a 3rd, but nice map tho!  "
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On August 27 2013 18:25 SiskosGoatee wrote:
I'm relying on the fact that it got in the top 8 at all to be voted on even though it turned out to be a balance disaster in PvZ.
I have no idea about Heaven's lagoon, the map is untested, it's hard to say anything about its balance. KC however was quickly dropped from tournament and ladder play due to its pretty dismal PvZ winrates.
I would be hesitant to use Korhal Compound as evidence given that the version that was voted had some significant changes made which made the map nearly unplayable. The heavy design of the natural being a significant part of that.
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I'm sorry Etcetra, your map was better than Blizzard's, more novel at any rate, and I really love the revised textures you produced (I had trouble with the textures before, but I think your revisions would have been just fine). Now Blizzard made less pretty and less unique. I guess the only thing you can do is be happy with the recognition you received from having a version of your map put on the ladder, and hopefully that will make it more likely that your maps will find themselves on the ladder or used in tournaments in the future.
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On August 27 2013 18:58 S1eth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 18:25 SiskosGoatee wrote:
I'm relying on the fact that it got in the top 8 at all to be voted on even though it turned out to be a balance disaster in PvZ.
I have no idea about Heaven's lagoon, the map is untested, it's hard to say anything about its balance. KC however was quickly dropped from tournament and ladder play due to its pretty dismal PvZ winrates. Both maps got the ~same amount of testing (by the judges) before being put for vote. The fact that Korhal Compoud (ladder edition with Blizzard changes) showed a 62% PvZ (actually 19-7 in favor of Zerg in tournaments) after thousands of ladder games (Cloud Kingdom had a 70% PvT winrate) doesn't tell us that any of the other map submissions would have been any better. Your whole argument is based on the possibilty that one of the other hundreds of maps could be more balanced. But unless the map gets on ladder / in tournaments, it will never be extensively tested. Why can't you say anything about Haven's Lagoon? Because it was never in ladder. So does it rightfully belong in the top 8 to be voted for? And why would Korhal Compound not? Both the judges and the community made their votes obviously before Korhal Compound got into ladder.
I am completely not following you and what you are trying to say in relation to my point and I'm not sure you get what my point is.
My point is simple, the community often hypes things without testing them (even mods like OneGoal, it was hyped by everyone as being awesome without a single balance test being done) and Blizzard can't just implement that stuff without testing it. There was a lot of hype behind KC and Atlas and both of them turned out to have a fair share of problems.
On August 27 2013 23:11 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 18:25 SiskosGoatee wrote:
I'm relying on the fact that it got in the top 8 at all to be voted on even though it turned out to be a balance disaster in PvZ.
I have no idea about Heaven's lagoon, the map is untested, it's hard to say anything about its balance. KC however was quickly dropped from tournament and ladder play due to its pretty dismal PvZ winrates. I would be hesitant to use Korhal Compound as evidence given that the version that was voted had some significant changes made which made the map nearly unplayable. The heavy design of the natural being a significant part of that. Didn't the tournament edition come after the vote?
As far as I know this is the version that won and this is the version that was used in the ladder, the only differences seem the natural and centre being slightly less chocked and rocks on one entrance path to the 4/5 base.
On August 27 2013 21:41 eTcetRa wrote:
I haven't checked the LE (which should be even easier on machines), but on my version there are only ~1000 doodads compared to Cloud Kingdoms ~2000. If you could run CK then Yeonsu should be more than easy.
Edit: comparing to metropolis there are like one hundredth of the amount of lights... Depends on what doodats are used of course, CK doodats were mostly rocks. That said, Yeonsu doesn't seem to have particularly complicated doodats as well. Maybe the textures looked unclear at certain texture qualities though.
I doubt Blizzard makes these modifications just to troll people. Surely they have their reasons whatever they are. Ohana's water apparently also caused FPS drops or something like that.
It might just be pure clarity, you have to understand that people from the lowest depths of Bronze are going to play on these maps.
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On August 27 2013 22:57 TheFish7 wrote:
The problem with Metro is that it used thousands of doodads that had lights and moving parts attached. That's not the same thing as having thousands of rocks and trees. Honestly there have only been a couple things that really set community map making back Metro was one of them and the other was probably Vicious both of which were unfortunate and mostly unforseeable. The rest of what has been holding the community back has just been the environment where players want to stick to the familiar and the fact that Blizzard set up the ladder and custom games in such a way that you have no choice of maps to play on. People are suggesting that the quality of maps is the problem and that just shows what a huge lack of understanding still exists about melee maps.
I actually think it is the opposite. I think you are the one that underestimate how much damage those maps did.
Vicious was unfortunate but unacceptable. Dreamhack was brave. In a time of huge Map stagnation, they went ahead and had the courage to force new maps into the pool. And got punished massively for doing so. A crucial error was present and wasn't found until the final. After that Dreamhack went into line and had only standard maps for following events. Countless apologies from ESV asside, the damage was done.
And then we got Metropolis. HOTS was in full production, Blizzards own mapteam was mostly occupied with the campaign maps(Presumingly). At this time Blizzard "finally" decide to try the easy way out and just have the community decide the map changes from the GSL pool. The entire community was instantly drawn to Metropolis because "Oh shiny". And soon it would turn out to be the most broken map to ever reach ladder. Blizzard themself couldn't have designed it worse if they tried. That was the last time we saw community votes on the ladder map pool aswell as the last time for a good while we saw community maps implemented on Ladder.
And we see the effects now. DF and TPW didn't dispand because of the current situration. We just got 3 new community maps on ladder, that is unheard off. It should be a time of joy and hope for mapmakers, regardless of alterations. No, they dispanded because the stagnation of 2012 broke them, and now they have finally bleed out. And those 2 maps (Mostly metropolis) boosted that stagnation.
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On August 28 2013 00:32 Sumadin wrote:
And we see the effects now. DF and TPW didn't dispand because of the current situration. We just got 3 new community maps on ladder, that is unheard off. It should be a time of joy and hope for mapmakers, regardless of alterations. No, they dispanded because the stagnation of 2012 broke them, and now they have finally bleed out. And those 2 maps (Mostly metropolis) boosted that stagnation.
To clear it up, DF did not disband due to the stagnation of 2012. We formed our organization at the height of the map pool stagnation crisis, and over the course of the next year we overcame that. We disbanded due to, as I stated, tightening of schedules for all members and decreased interest in Starcraft 2 in lieu of other activities.
We are happy and proud that our hard work culminated in a map deviation of one of our own placing on the ladder. This made the effort and time worthwhile. However, even with such a success we could not ignore our members' clear decreasing interest and movement towards other, more personal, goals in life. As was a core part of our mission statement, we support these changes for personal development.
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On August 28 2013 00:11 SiskosGoatee wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 18:58 S1eth wrote:On August 27 2013 18:25 SiskosGoatee wrote:
I'm relying on the fact that it got in the top 8 at all to be voted on even though it turned out to be a balance disaster in PvZ.
I have no idea about Heaven's lagoon, the map is untested, it's hard to say anything about its balance. KC however was quickly dropped from tournament and ladder play due to its pretty dismal PvZ winrates. Both maps got the ~same amount of testing (by the judges) before being put for vote. The fact that Korhal Compoud (ladder edition with Blizzard changes) showed a 62% PvZ (actually 19-7 in favor of Zerg in tournaments) after thousands of ladder games (Cloud Kingdom had a 70% PvT winrate) doesn't tell us that any of the other map submissions would have been any better. Your whole argument is based on the possibilty that one of the other hundreds of maps could be more balanced. But unless the map gets on ladder / in tournaments, it will never be extensively tested. Why can't you say anything about Haven's Lagoon? Because it was never in ladder. So does it rightfully belong in the top 8 to be voted for? And why would Korhal Compound not? Both the judges and the community made their votes obviously before Korhal Compound got into ladder. I am completely not following you and what you are trying to say in relation to my point and I'm not sure you get what my point is. My point is simple, the community often hypes things without testing them (even mods like OneGoal, it was hyped by everyone as being awesome without a single balance test being done) and Blizzard can't just implement that stuff without testing it. There was a lot of hype behind KC and Atlas and both of them turned out to have a fair share of problems. Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 23:11 Plexa wrote:On August 27 2013 18:25 SiskosGoatee wrote:
I'm relying on the fact that it got in the top 8 at all to be voted on even though it turned out to be a balance disaster in PvZ.
I have no idea about Heaven's lagoon, the map is untested, it's hard to say anything about its balance. KC however was quickly dropped from tournament and ladder play due to its pretty dismal PvZ winrates. I would be hesitant to use Korhal Compound as evidence given that the version that was voted had some significant changes made which made the map nearly unplayable. The heavy design of the natural being a significant part of that. Didn't the tournament edition come after the vote? As far as I know this is the version that won and this is the version that was used in the ladder, the only differences seem the natural and centre being slightly less chocked and rocks on one entrance path to the 4/5 base. Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 21:41 eTcetRa wrote:
I haven't checked the LE (which should be even easier on machines), but on my version there are only ~1000 doodads compared to Cloud Kingdoms ~2000. If you could run CK then Yeonsu should be more than easy.
Edit: comparing to metropolis there are like one hundredth of the amount of lights... Depends on what doodats are used of course, CK doodats were mostly rocks. That said, Yeonsu doesn't seem to have particularly complicated doodats as well. Maybe the textures looked unclear at certain texture qualities though. I doubt Blizzard makes these modifications just to troll people. Surely they have their reasons whatever they are. Ohana's water apparently also caused FPS drops or something like that. It might just be pure clarity, you have to understand that people from the lowest depths of Bronze are going to play on these maps.
I think you should just stop using the word "community" because you're always talking about vocal minorites. And I can't even remember any "hype" for KC or Atlas. What do you even mean by "hype"?
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On August 28 2013 04:26 S1eth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2013 00:11 SiskosGoatee wrote:On August 27 2013 18:58 S1eth wrote:On August 27 2013 18:25 SiskosGoatee wrote:
I'm relying on the fact that it got in the top 8 at all to be voted on even though it turned out to be a balance disaster in PvZ.
I have no idea about Heaven's lagoon, the map is untested, it's hard to say anything about its balance. KC however was quickly dropped from tournament and ladder play due to its pretty dismal PvZ winrates. Both maps got the ~same amount of testing (by the judges) before being put for vote. The fact that Korhal Compoud (ladder edition with Blizzard changes) showed a 62% PvZ (actually 19-7 in favor of Zerg in tournaments) after thousands of ladder games (Cloud Kingdom had a 70% PvT winrate) doesn't tell us that any of the other map submissions would have been any better. Your whole argument is based on the possibilty that one of the other hundreds of maps could be more balanced. But unless the map gets on ladder / in tournaments, it will never be extensively tested. Why can't you say anything about Haven's Lagoon? Because it was never in ladder. So does it rightfully belong in the top 8 to be voted for? And why would Korhal Compound not? Both the judges and the community made their votes obviously before Korhal Compound got into ladder. I am completely not following you and what you are trying to say in relation to my point and I'm not sure you get what my point is. My point is simple, the community often hypes things without testing them (even mods like OneGoal, it was hyped by everyone as being awesome without a single balance test being done) and Blizzard can't just implement that stuff without testing it. There was a lot of hype behind KC and Atlas and both of them turned out to have a fair share of problems. On August 27 2013 23:11 Plexa wrote:On August 27 2013 18:25 SiskosGoatee wrote:
I'm relying on the fact that it got in the top 8 at all to be voted on even though it turned out to be a balance disaster in PvZ.
I have no idea about Heaven's lagoon, the map is untested, it's hard to say anything about its balance. KC however was quickly dropped from tournament and ladder play due to its pretty dismal PvZ winrates. I would be hesitant to use Korhal Compound as evidence given that the version that was voted had some significant changes made which made the map nearly unplayable. The heavy design of the natural being a significant part of that. Didn't the tournament edition come after the vote? As far as I know this is the version that won and this is the version that was used in the ladder, the only differences seem the natural and centre being slightly less chocked and rocks on one entrance path to the 4/5 base. On August 27 2013 21:41 eTcetRa wrote:
I haven't checked the LE (which should be even easier on machines), but on my version there are only ~1000 doodads compared to Cloud Kingdoms ~2000. If you could run CK then Yeonsu should be more than easy.
Edit: comparing to metropolis there are like one hundredth of the amount of lights... Depends on what doodats are used of course, CK doodats were mostly rocks. That said, Yeonsu doesn't seem to have particularly complicated doodats as well. Maybe the textures looked unclear at certain texture qualities though. I doubt Blizzard makes these modifications just to troll people. Surely they have their reasons whatever they are. Ohana's water apparently also caused FPS drops or something like that. It might just be pure clarity, you have to understand that people from the lowest depths of Bronze are going to play on these maps. I think you should just stop using the word "community" because you're always talking about vocal minorites. And I can't even remember any "hype" for KC or Atlas. What do you even mean by "hype"? How am I talking about vocal minorities when Metropolis was voted into the ladder by popular poll?
KC won the staff vote of the TLMC and placed highly in the public vote. Atlas was I suppose only pushed by the mapping community only, not the entire SC2 community.. Well, some people did point out long before it was apparent that the map was bad for Zerg, and it turned out to be.
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The only map I remember having any good hype is CK.
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On August 28 2013 04:31 SiskosGoatee wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2013 04:26 S1eth wrote:On August 28 2013 00:11 SiskosGoatee wrote:On August 27 2013 18:58 S1eth wrote:On August 27 2013 18:25 SiskosGoatee wrote:
I'm relying on the fact that it got in the top 8 at all to be voted on even though it turned out to be a balance disaster in PvZ.
I have no idea about Heaven's lagoon, the map is untested, it's hard to say anything about its balance. KC however was quickly dropped from tournament and ladder play due to its pretty dismal PvZ winrates. Both maps got the ~same amount of testing (by the judges) before being put for vote. The fact that Korhal Compoud (ladder edition with Blizzard changes) showed a 62% PvZ (actually 19-7 in favor of Zerg in tournaments) after thousands of ladder games (Cloud Kingdom had a 70% PvT winrate) doesn't tell us that any of the other map submissions would have been any better. Your whole argument is based on the possibilty that one of the other hundreds of maps could be more balanced. But unless the map gets on ladder / in tournaments, it will never be extensively tested. Why can't you say anything about Haven's Lagoon? Because it was never in ladder. So does it rightfully belong in the top 8 to be voted for? And why would Korhal Compound not? Both the judges and the community made their votes obviously before Korhal Compound got into ladder. I am completely not following you and what you are trying to say in relation to my point and I'm not sure you get what my point is. My point is simple, the community often hypes things without testing them (even mods like OneGoal, it was hyped by everyone as being awesome without a single balance test being done) and Blizzard can't just implement that stuff without testing it. There was a lot of hype behind KC and Atlas and both of them turned out to have a fair share of problems. On August 27 2013 23:11 Plexa wrote:On August 27 2013 18:25 SiskosGoatee wrote:
I'm relying on the fact that it got in the top 8 at all to be voted on even though it turned out to be a balance disaster in PvZ.
I have no idea about Heaven's lagoon, the map is untested, it's hard to say anything about its balance. KC however was quickly dropped from tournament and ladder play due to its pretty dismal PvZ winrates. I would be hesitant to use Korhal Compound as evidence given that the version that was voted had some significant changes made which made the map nearly unplayable. The heavy design of the natural being a significant part of that. Didn't the tournament edition come after the vote? As far as I know this is the version that won and this is the version that was used in the ladder, the only differences seem the natural and centre being slightly less chocked and rocks on one entrance path to the 4/5 base. On August 27 2013 21:41 eTcetRa wrote:
I haven't checked the LE (which should be even easier on machines), but on my version there are only ~1000 doodads compared to Cloud Kingdoms ~2000. If you could run CK then Yeonsu should be more than easy.
Edit: comparing to metropolis there are like one hundredth of the amount of lights... Depends on what doodats are used of course, CK doodats were mostly rocks. That said, Yeonsu doesn't seem to have particularly complicated doodats as well. Maybe the textures looked unclear at certain texture qualities though. I doubt Blizzard makes these modifications just to troll people. Surely they have their reasons whatever they are. Ohana's water apparently also caused FPS drops or something like that. It might just be pure clarity, you have to understand that people from the lowest depths of Bronze are going to play on these maps. I think you should just stop using the word "community" because you're always talking about vocal minorites. And I can't even remember any "hype" for KC or Atlas. What do you even mean by "hype"? How am I talking about vocal minorities when Metropolis was voted into the ladder by popular poll? KC won the staff vote of the TLMC and placed highly in the public vote. Atlas was I suppose only pushed by the mapping community only, not the entire SC2 community.. Well, some people did point out long before it was apparent that the map was bad for Zerg, and it turned out to be.
Actually, KC got last place in the public vote:
Rank Staff - Public
1st Korhal Compound - Ohana
2nd Cloud Kingdom - Cloud Kingdom
3rd Burning Altas - Haven's Lagoon
4th Sanctuary - Twilight Peaks
5th Ohana - Sanctuary
6th Haven's Lagoon - Burning Altar
7th Twilight Peaks - Korhal Compound
About Metroplis, the other choices weren't that great either. These are the maps you could vote on:
Bel’shir Winter, Calm Before the Storm, Crevasse, Daybreak, Dual Sight, Metropolis, Terminus, Xel’Naga Fortress
http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/10071980/#best
Daybreak obviously won (also one of the best maps used in tournaments/ladder so far)
Bel'shir Winter got slightly more votes than Metropolis, followed by Dual Sight.
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Atlas was merely one of like 7 or so maps that were sent to IPL for consideration. It was only used because GSL specifically asked to use it after they saw it being tested by IPL.
Metropolis was put against other shit maps in the poll afaik. But whatever these other maps were, it was a public poll and thus almost useless.
Korhal Compound wasn't ever hyped by the mapmaking community what are you talking about lol. It was hyped by TL staff/judges who at the time had 0 mapmakers judging.
At least back then judges could decide shit tho... would have loved that right to prevent the Frost/Ravage/Yeonsu top 3.
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You must be proud of getting Yeonsu on GSL. Let's see if they have a mind and use your version.
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Doubt it, Blizz announced a unified map pool for the ladder and all WCS Regions, which honestly blows. Means that these 7 maps are basically the only maps we are going to see the following month or two.
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Those are only graphics changes , they do not impact gameplay. From the map preview on stream , i saw the etcetra one.
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EPT
