EPT[D] Third Base Design - Page 2
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RFDaemoniac
United States544 Posts
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Gfire
United States1699 Posts
On August 09 2012 09:41 iamcaustic wrote: That's certainly an interesting point. I do have to wonder, however, if we couldn't see a similar result from more defensible (albeit more spread out) bases. In theory, wouldn't it be the same concept: Zerg wouldn't be able to just brute-force their way in with a lot of units (e.g. mass roach), requiring an alternative approach to get in and deal damage? I don't have any substance to back that, just theory crafting in my head. Yes, in theory a map with a tight choke at the third (like entombed) but a longer travel distance between the main/nat/third would even more greatly encourage dropping and multi-pronged harassment, and stuff targeting the main and not just using drops to circumvent the choke. Example: My map ESV Gauntlet AE, which not only follows this but also leaves two sides to the main greatly exposed to further encourage drops and air play. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/JRZNk.jpg) Being a remake, and a map I started a while back, this wasn't exactly intentional but as with most things, my brain is now telling me to do what my gut told me to do several months ago. On August 09 2012 09:53 Johanaz wrote: I´d like an expert opinion on these 3rds: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/D0jZ3.jpg) All spawns enabled so you choose a 3rd depending on where your opponent is. I put force fields in the pic to show the different choke sizes. edit: the 2ff choke can equally be walled off with 2 gateways or 3 pylons I think it's fine do to the long distance, but if I had made it I probably would have used 2x ramps instead of 3 at the 6/9 expos. I have a somewhat similar layout where I used 2x, but I think either is okay. | ||
digmouse
China6330 Posts
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Gfire
United States1699 Posts
On August 09 2012 11:44 digmouse wrote: My favorite 3rd design by far is Daybreak and Metropolis, though the 3rd of Cloud Kingdom has small area to cover, it seems to require somewhat better positioning between natural and 3rd. I think on CK the nexus takes up a lot of space in the path and is close to the ramp. You can't really utilize the space very well as the defender because your own nexus is blocking your units more than the opponent's. The choke points aren't very helpful do to this. The map's very tight, barely having enough space to do what's necessary, which was the main reason I wasn't so fond of it when it first showed up. | ||
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iamcaustic
Canada1509 Posts
On August 09 2012 11:50 Gfire wrote: I think on CK the nexus takes up a lot of space in the path and is close to the ramp. You can't really utilize the space very well as the defender because your own nexus is blocking your units more than the opponent's. The choke points aren't very helpful do to this. The map's very tight, barely having enough space to do what's necessary, which was the main reason I wasn't so fond of it when it first showed up. I've encountered that issue on a number of occasions, both to the detriment of myself and my opponents. Really sucks being the defender in those cases. It's definitely not my favourite third base. | ||
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Semmo
Korea (South)627 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/366Pa.jpg) The dist from nat to third isn't that big. Some people say it works (EW, Monitor, etc) while others (U_G_L_Y, Sated) say it doesn't. Any more opinions? | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
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Gfire
United States1699 Posts
On August 09 2012 12:14 Semmo wrote: Expert Opinions on third: + Show Spoiler + The dist from nat to third isn't that big. Some people say it works (EW, Monitor, etc) while others (U_G_L_Y, Sated) say it doesn't. Any more opinions? What about something like this? + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZsK59.jpg) Partial or complete block of that entrance. | ||
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iamcaustic
Canada1509 Posts
On August 09 2012 12:30 Gfire wrote: What about something like this? + Show Spoiler + Partial or complete block of that entrance. Would that really stop the roach aggression issue in PvZ? I'd think the rocks would get almost insta-killed. | ||
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Gfire
United States1699 Posts
On August 09 2012 12:41 iamcaustic wrote: Would that really stop the roach aggression issue in PvZ? I'd think the rocks would get almost insta-killed. If they devote that many roaches then those roaches aren't at the third where they want to be. I think it helps just enough, just like the rocks on CK. | ||
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Semmo
Korea (South)627 Posts
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monitor
United States2408 Posts
On August 09 2012 12:49 Gfire wrote: If they devote that many roaches then those roaches aren't at the third where they want to be. I think it helps just enough, just like the rocks on CK. Meh, I think if its too hard to hold then you should make the chokes smaller. Right now its going to be on the hard(ish) side, but I don't think its unplayable. There are other concerns that I have with the map that come before the third, such as the middle bases, the linear fourth, and the strange allocation of space between the deadend expo and the highground fourth. | ||
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Gfire
United States1699 Posts
On August 09 2012 12:53 monitor wrote: Meh, I think if its too hard to hold then you should make the chokes smaller. Right now its going to be on the hard(ish) side, but I don't think its unplayable. There are other concerns that I have with the map that come before the third, such as the middle bases, the linear fourth, and the strange allocation of space between the deadend expo and the highground fourth. Third is way more important than any of that, imo. | ||
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monitor
United States2408 Posts
On August 09 2012 12:57 Gfire wrote: Oh, I think you could look at adjusting the middle choke, making it smaller or adding rocks. Third is way more important than any of that, imo. I suppose for "playability", the third is the most important. However the issues I listed should be fixed first, and then the third can be adjusted afterward so it is easier to defend, if necessary. Otherwise you'd adjust the third and then have to redo it again later if the other fundamental changes interfered (likely they would). | ||
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Gfire
United States1699 Posts
On August 09 2012 13:09 monitor wrote: I suppose for "playability", the third is the most important. However the issues I listed should be fixed first, and then the third can be adjusted afterward so it is easier to defend, if necessary. Otherwise you'd adjust the third and then have to redo it again later if the other fundamental changes interfered (likely they would). You may be right. I haven't looked closely at the rest of the map. (IMO the aesthetics are distracting.) | ||
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Semmo
Korea (South)627 Posts
On August 09 2012 13:16 Gfire wrote: You may be right. I haven't looked closely at the rest of the map. (IMO the aesthetics are distracting.) I don't think i'll be changing it, people like it so. | ||
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Gfire
United States1699 Posts
On August 09 2012 13:30 Semmo wrote: I don't think i'll be changing it, people like it so. Well, sure, I just mean, that I've been too distracted with them to take a good look at the layout.  Eh, I think they could be a bit more polished, though, but the ideas are pretty interesting. | ||
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digmouse
China6330 Posts
On August 09 2012 11:50 Gfire wrote: I think on CK the nexus takes up a lot of space in the path and is close to the ramp. You can't really utilize the space very well as the defender because your own nexus is blocking your units more than the opponent's. The choke points aren't very helpful do to this. The map's very tight, barely having enough space to do what's necessary, which was the main reason I wasn't so fond of it when it first showed up. Exactly this, on most maps your 3rd nexus/cc/hatch doesn't interfere your army positioning, you don't put your base right in the middle of a potential attack/defense path, or the base is at the end of the attack/defend path. While on CK, your base is BETWEEN your army and the attack path, which means you have to put your army behind the base, if you position them between the natural and the 3rd. That's why 3rd sniping is so much more common on CK, you either have to wall of the natural ramp and focus on defending the 3rd, or face the danger of a run by to your natural, even main while your army is defending your 3rd. | ||
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Meltage
Germany613 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/JBNMS.jpg) Since I got feedback that for T it's too hard to take and hold one. I've made changes since then, though. Expert opinion? | ||
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digmouse
China6330 Posts
Just my two cents. | ||
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