This map is a WIP. I prefer to display it early for the community to discuss rather than keeping it for myself until I feel it's done and having some basic flaw I didn't realize because I was looking too closely.
This thread is for two maps that orgin from the same map. I'm currently testing both. Which one do you like the most and why?
Three watchtowers are too much. I would keep the one in the middle or perhaps use two watchtowers, but closer to the center so the entire mapheight cannot be covered by the towers.
While it seems cool and fun (legitimately), I fear the underlying dynamic is expand and turtle, because even a slow army can camp the high ground near the ramp with rocks and bounce to cover any major incoming attacks, especially with those towers on the wings. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but from the look of things I don't think this was your intention. All in all, I like this better than Daybreak because it doesn't deceive you with lategame impossible bases. I think it'd be a better map if the center was open ground and not a constricted spot (assuming you keep the tower there). Alternatively you could make two bridges with a small space between them. The tower ensures that the center is powerful, but it's too hard to engage there, with your only option to avoid it two small ramps.
I feel like maybe the two small bases should be relocated as normal bases somewhere else, or things shifted around slightly to make those gold bases that don't cover the two normal expansions behind them. What if you put a normal base in that empty space at 5 and 11, with a long low ground army connecting to them? Or whatever you want to give it to one side of the map or the other.
Maybe a very small horizontal ramp leading to the middle would be cool, to let people check on the tower easily.
The mains are huge, the map overall is huge. And the openness given by the analyzer is deceiving, because it's including all those tiny dots of terrain in its calculations, so I suspect it's closer to 3.8-3.9 overall, which is fine. I like the defining feature of the 3rd's though, where if you spot a far away 3rd base you can take the forward one to offset its distant position, because both options are rather extremely positioned, which in turn only works I think because of how big the map is. I don't necessarily like maps that are gratuitously large, but in this case it's necessary I think. I do think the mains could stand to be more like 40 CC's in size, 50 is really out there, literally.
I do like seeing new maps from you though, they always have a certain strangeness to them. Nifty tileset too, looking forward to close-up shots.
Personally, I think the map is "perfect" as it (10/10 at first look), but I need to try before a final comment. Proportion seems very good. If you change something, I am afraid that you will have to change the rest of the map to keep proportions.
Remind me ESV brineclaw and Day Break at the same time! Looks very solid imo! Enough solid to easily win MotM.
I need to try this on NA Just hope you will have less difficulties to upload this map on NA than you had with Silver Sands
Since there is only 3 pathways from one side of the map to the other I really feel like there should be less watchtowers, or maybe even have none at all.
Third base looks really far away, and between the natural and third there are 3 attack paths, meaning defending against multi-pronged attacks from zerg as a protoss will be hell. Expect 2-base all-ins in PvZ, which should work pretty well considering the chokey-ness of the map. The long rush distance should help zerg hold it off, but breaking down the rocks should let toss move in rather quickly.
Anyway, I don't see Protoss liking this map at all.
Pathogen Glands is on the wrong research-hotkey and Neural does not need to be researched. Haven't noticed anything else, but I only played a short match against an AI to take a look at the map.
On June 11 2012 20:12 Jebediah wrote: Pathogen Glands is on the wrong research-hotkey and Neural does not need to be researched. Haven't noticed anything else, but I only played a short match against an AI to take a look at the map.
:O Nice find. I actually started the map in the Arcade Beta editor, so there could very well be issues like that. Thanks
On June 11 2012 05:32 EatThePath wrote: While it seems cool and fun (legitimately), I fear the underlying dynamic is expand and turtle, because even a slow army can camp the high ground near the ramp with rocks and bounce to cover any major incoming attacks, especially with those towers on the wings. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but from the look of things I don't think this was your intention. All in all, I like this better than Daybreak because it doesn't deceive you with lategame impossible bases. I think it'd be a better map if the center was open ground and not a constricted spot (assuming you keep the tower there). Alternatively you could make two bridges with a small space between them. The tower ensures that the center is powerful, but it's too hard to engage there, with your only option to avoid it two small ramps.
I feel like maybe the two small bases should be relocated as normal bases somewhere else, or things shifted around slightly to make those gold bases that don't cover the two normal expansions behind them. What if you put a normal base in that empty space at 5 and 11, with a long low ground army connecting to them? Or whatever you want to give it to one side of the map or the other.
Maybe a very small horizontal ramp leading to the middle would be cool, to let people check on the tower easily.
Yeah, when I made the made and took a secodn look I thought "oh, I made a turtle map. Very well, elts see what ppl think".
Why hate on the half-base? The idea initially was to provide a "free base" in a spot close to where your army is anyways. However, I think i'ts interresting that it's vulnerable to drops on the high ground above it (while the gas on the high groudn is vulnerable from below). Putting a normal base at the edge of the map at 12ish and 6ish oclock might be waht I end up doing for better spread of bases.
Nice point about the centre.. I dont really provide a broader safer path around it, as I should.
@PandaZerg - I'll try. Worst case scenario I send you the map file to host for me if you can.
On June 11 2012 11:29 FlaShFTW wrote: too much of a splitty map. i mean split maps are fine, its just this one is wayyyy too split.
I know. It's intended. What do you think this will do to the games on it? I also experiment with tower placements. Do you think less towers/no towers woudl make the map better in that regard? The issue I see with no towers is that theres a lot of space to scout on a big map like this.
The bottom left and top right corners seem really weird. The bases feel too cluttered. It appears you either 2 base all-in or you get 5 base. You really need to work on those cluttered bases. Also 3 watch towers is too much. Honestly just get rid of the one in the middle because then if you do take the time to break down both sets of rocks and do feel like funneling your army through two 2x-wide ramps you won't be scouted unless they have a unit sitting in the area.
Great TvT map. The layout makes it so that it's "half-half" with 5 expansions on each side and 2 expansions left near the middle and therefor the location of struggle between seige lines and such. And since there is SO MUCH space behind the nat and the 4th, drops are very likely to be effective.
The third is far for the Zerg player, so if the nat is blocked by a pylon (which happens almost all the time against decent P players (reference: MLG Anaheim)) Zerg has to go take the 12 o'clock which isn't the supposed 3rd, which is very far, near a watchtower and fairly open, not to mention (again) the HUGE space behind it for flying units aka voidrays. But if facing a rubbish non-nat-denying-protoss, this isn't such a big deal, since the terrain (ups and downs all over the place) and the numerous watchtowers help the Zerg to control the map, not to mention (again) the HUGE area behind the 12 o'clock and the 6 o'clock that could be used for death drops or mutas.
That brings me to my final point, playing Protoss on this map. I find it quite difficult to get a decent 3rd on this map for Protoss, so 2-base timing attacks would be quite present on the map... yet since the terrain makes it so long to get from 1 nat to another, I think it isn't so much of a good idea to do so, unless the Zerg sucks. The map, in general, is great for collosi since there are cliffs EVERYWHERE, so going infestorling wouldn't be such a good idea either, unless of course the Protoss doesn't utilise the cliffs. And fyi it would be hell for Protoss do defend against good run-bys and such because all bases around the supposed 3rd are quite open (2 entries).
That was my opinion. Thanks for caring enough to read
1. Just from looking at the map it looks kind of narrow.
2. The natural is quite open to attacks. There should be someway to have a safer FFE for protoss.
3. And going along with that, there doesn't seem to be any "easy" progression to the third. I can see the corners being taken if the rocks were knocked down.
Other than that it looks pretty good and pretty good looking.
Why do rocks block the shortest attack/scout path?
Why so much air space?
Why are the mains so big?
Why is there this path to behind naturals against wall from main to CC/nexus
What on earth is taht gas placement on the non main corner bases?
What is that highground area behind the side watch towers? Is it pathatble?
Ok, enough questions that should have been awnsered in the OP. Comments time.
I dont like how far the bases are from each other, even though the defensive chokes might allow multiple bases defendable against ground, I feel like mutalisk against every race, and warp prism haras vs terran is OP in this map. Really experimental map indeed.
I liked by far the older. Older had a very unique design and it was fresh and cool. Too bad it is not on US (NA) atm to test it. I would like to play on the older version... EDIT: The newer looks good too, it's just that I liked more the original version.
On June 18 2012 00:11 PandaZerg wrote: I liked by far the older. Older had a very unique design and it was fresh and cool. Too bad it is not on US (NA) atm to test it. I would like to play on the older version... EDIT: The newer looks good too, it's just that I liked more the original version.
I think that's doable
EDIT: both versions are up on NA as Colonial and Colonial II
1- The map is huge. Not necessarily a "bad" thing, but just kind of :/ 2- The third base is deceptively hard to hold. Having to move your entire army between the fairly open natural and the third through a teeny choke isn't good. 3- The fourth high-ground is too close to the third. IMO, you should tuck the third away by the side of the main, and fix the path between third-nat. It'll make the third easier to hold, and the fourth a bit harder. 4- 3 watchtowers make it impossible for any counter attacks to happen through any paths. Take off the central tower, then you allow at least some sort of sneak-ability.
While a fun concept, I don't foresee this map being very playable at a competitive level- it's too big and the above issues make it fairly unbalanced.
Edit- for perspective, this map is bigger than Tal'Darim, Atlantis Spaceship, and even Whirlwind.
On June 19 2012 04:24 DYEAlabaster wrote: Edit- for perspective, this map is bigger than Tal'Darim, Atlantis Spaceship, and even Whirlwind.
It isn't, actually. One dimension of the map is larger than those maps, but the other is considerably shorter. It's probably equal in size to Atlantis overall, but is nowhere near as big as Tal'Darim Altar or Whirlwind, and you don't have to scout their position, as it's a 2p map. The aptest of your comparisons is to Atlantis, the other 2 are worlds apart.
On June 19 2012 04:24 DYEAlabaster wrote: To note:
1- The map is huge. Not necessarily a "bad" thing, but just kind of :/ 2- The third base is deceptively hard to hold. Having to move your entire army between the fairly open natural and the third through a teeny choke isn't good. 3- The fourth high-ground is too close to the third. IMO, you should tuck the third away by the side of the main, and fix the path between third-nat. It'll make the third easier to hold, and the fourth a bit harder. 4- 3 watchtowers make it impossible for any counter attacks to happen through any paths. Take off the central tower, then you allow at least some sort of sneak-ability.
While a fun concept, I don't foresee this map being very playable at a competitive level- it's too big and the above issues make it fairly unbalanced.
Edit- for perspective, this map is bigger than Tal'Darim, Atlantis Spaceship, and even Whirlwind.
I made those changes already. See Colonial II. However, I lost good attack paths and some core stuff in the layout in the process, so I'll prob make a third version. I need feedback from playtesters first, though.
Very cool liked the first one, i would like it if you connected the third and the the land next to it with a bridge through the space to open the map up more because currently it feels a bit cramped for counter attacks and the like.
* Pathing was done (although doodads do not always indicate whats pathable and not)
* The ramps into the middle with rocks have been widened to 3x ramps from 2x ramps.
* The middle tower was removed and the path trough that area was widened.
* There's a small line of LoSB on the plateau by the towers
* The mains were made slightly smaller.
* The nat backdoor destr debris were removed. In additon, the path next to the main and the backdoor ramp was widened a few units.
* The ramp between CCW 3rd and CCW 4th was adjusted
I plan on more changes, obv. Currently, I want to reduce main size, move the CCW third closer to the main and reduce the map size to at least 180 width from 200. Some airspace along the west and east map borders will be cut in the process.
- Map size was changed to 184x106 from 200x116 - CCW third moved closer to nat backdoor ramp - Mains rezised from 50ish to 40ish CCs. Now have more air space on one side, but none on the other. - Centre low ground now has two bridges instead of one - There is a ground circle-path around the tower, and vision blockers placed accordingly. - Ramps into the middle with rocks are now 4x sized (2x sized with rocks)
damn that green area looks so complex lol. i really like this map. has an optional 3rd if you like to get closer to your opponent (dont know why but ok xD). i still feel that this map is too easily splitable. i suggest moving the base next to the natural and move it more to the 6.5/12.5 base or even 7/1 to make this less splity.
because of the enormously long rush distances, the double bases in the corners need to be moved closer to the opponents bases. this will result in you not just throwing up bases and your opponent cant really apply any pressure towards it.
I like the towers and the half base much better now. Also like the new middle route.
I still don't like that the half base essentially covers the two expansions behind it, and it has a tower in front of it, but the new openness really changes how effective it is in that role, so it's okay.
Watching a TvZ push unfold on this map would be pretty cool almost every time. ;D
The tower in front of the half-base is a vulnerability as well as a protection, depending on whos controlling it. I had that and the openess in mind when redesigning that area. I wonder if the first 3 CW bases are too vulnerable to air and if I should move everything closer to that map edge, to decrease air space behidn nat and main, but increase it in the other end
- Lighting changed to Tarsonis standard lighting from Castanar lighting. Castanar lighting is very dark on some comps).
- Fixed a bug that allowed small/tiny untis to pass on the inside of the destructible rocks on the ramps towards the middle
- Fixed dependency settings to standard The map was first made in the SCII Arcade Beta Editor, then carried over to the normal one, which caused the map to loose the Liberty Multiplayer Mod-dependencies.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Ngy3j.jpg)
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