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Hi, guys. =)
I'm from Brazil, and play Starcraft since BW. I like the playing and the map creation too, and also the ballance. Sometimes i got ideias of new abilities units must have, some abilities they must lose, some new units to add etc.
So a few months ago I got an idea: hei, I can create my own race, with all my ideas, put all together and commit to the gameplay. So, its ALMOST done! I create most of the units and already a logo to the race, and the mod on B.Net.
So I come here to share it with you. It will be a pleasure to get your feedback (omg, not from the high templar!) and opinions.
Here is the site: www.revelrace.com
Note: the 'like' and 'dislike' buttons on the site have nothing to do with facebook.
By the way, sorry my poor english.
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Death Mirror looks absurdly OP. O_O
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Yes, it looks..., but on testing it showed be not that OP. Anyway, nothing is final yet..., and i need your feedback to adjust the ballance =)
Soon I'll release the beta for players.
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this ability doubles the damage dealt by the assassin for 5 seconds. Can be combined with Death Blades, to deal a total of 360 damage. This ability has a cooldown of 40 seconds and costs no mana.
Lolwut? 360 damage for no energy or cost whatsoever?
everytime any unit causes damage to the Death Mirror, 15 points of damage will be reflected back to the attacker
Once again, ridiculously imbalanced. It's practically impossible to kill this unit...
Right now, this unit becomes cloaked while not moving.
I'm starting to lose any faith in any of these units being balanced.
Dark Mist: the Mist Lord casts a dark mist with range 3, and all enemy units within the mist will have the sight range changed to 0 (totally blind).
This ability I actually like. It encourages micro and although it isn't too useful in a lot of situations it could be a decent ability. The cloak one is really stupid, as is the heal one, but the anti-spell one is somewhat workable (needs a lot of work though). The unit's attack is ridiculous in combination with spells.
the negator move an unit (enemy or yours) away from him, doubling the distance between the Negator and the unit.
I like this sort of reverse abduct but the weird 10 seconds of no movement afterwards doesn't seem to make any sense. This needs to be tweaked to be bearable. The halving attack speed one lasts way too long to be at all balanced. This unit also needs to cost more than 1 supply.
This is the main building. It is it, not the workers, that build all the buildings, including the obelisk itself. The obelisk has a range of 8 to build anything. If you get another base, you will need to build obelisk after obelisk from the first one until tou reach your base, creating a network of obelisks.
I really like the way this works, like a network of creep. I think it would be quite vulnerable to aggressive attacks but definitely an interesting concept. Considering that you'll be building a lot of these, 20 supply is ludicrously over the top.
It's not a transport in truth, because it doesn't load anything. What it does is go to somewhere to teleport units that are everywhere to everywhere the ominspace is, like the Recall of the Mothership, but works only in a single unit.
This is another good idea for a unit, but once again not executed brilliantly. The most glaring problem is the +2 starting armour which should be gone ASAP.
a single Pawn 'attached' to a mineral field have an income nearly equals to 2.5 normal workers
This is absolutely ridiculous and needs to be changed completely. Base armour and the ability to always be ahead in economy with far less workers.
But this unit transcend its body to the plane above, and can be attacked only by air.
In principle this is a really good idea, but the unit is too low tier and too easily massable early game. It would cause a lot of problems for the other races to deal with. The attack damage is also enormously high. You've got to remember that this unit is in effect a banshee and the fact that it's so low tier creates an enormous number of additional problems.
By the cost of 125 energy, it will put an lifetime on an enemy unit, giving it 60 seconds to live. The enemy unit will be full functional during this life time, but when the time expires, the unit die!
Ridiculously overpowered. The summons are also somewhat problematic in various ways, but the fact that it isn't too easy to mass this unit kind of mitigates those issues. kind of. 20 damage for a caster like this is too much.
It has a large amount of base armor (3 base armor)
3 base armour and only costs 75 minerals. This unit is a complete joke and needs to be reworked entirely. The ability to increase its armour by 3 at will is also ridiculous. This unit gets all the worse when it can just attack through other units armour. Whatever happens, this unit needs to go.
Overall, some interesting ideas and concepts, but it needs a lot of reworking to be at all balanced. At the moment, this race will just autokill every other race in every game.
EDIT: Before the first minute of the game is up, depending on the cost of the production building, you could have 7 Warriors at your opponent's base. By this point the other player will probably have roughly 10 or 11 workers and will just die.
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I really appreciate your feedback. =)
I agree some values are hard to belive is ballanced..., and in fact, I cant know without a large gameplay. Trust me, it's really hard to fine some friend to test this units. So, I stucked a long time, and decided to post the job done to get feedback from both teamliquid and USA side of AM server.
I'll really appreciate to find some players here that join me to do a good job.
Contacts, please: o.coelho.jack@gmail.com
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Unfortunately I'm only on EU but the 7 Warrior rush will literally kill any other race every time so...
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Death Mirror is so hilariously OP, I'm laughing my ass off. As if the 15 damage reflect per attack wasn't enough, it also decloaks everything within 8 range and disables all activated abilities? Too funny.
Also, warriors are crazy strong. For the cost of 1.5 marines you get something with 1.5 marine DPS, 3 armor, 1.5x marine life, ignores armor, and only takes 1 supply? My goodness. I wager 3 of these could take down 10 marines; the marines would only be doing 3 damage per shot, and 3 warriors would kill a marine in 1.5 seconds.
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I like the concepts, but the numbers will need to be tweeked big time.
The only thing I dislike is the worker thingy. Change it too normal mining time (you can keep the 'not needing to take it back to the main base thingy) and normal speed, or you'll get into *BIG* balance issues.
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On May 01 2012 04:22 jacksonps wrote:I agree some values are hard to belive is ballanced..., and in fact, I cant know without a large gameplay. No, actually, you can. Every single unit is stupidly overpowered.
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Also: the current building mechanism doesn't allow for hidden expansions, a big disadvantage.
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Had trouble finding a unit on the list that was not glaringly OP, though the mechanics are interesting and could cause some sweet synergy.
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On May 01 2012 05:51 AdrianHealey wrote:
Also: the current building mechanism doesn't allow for hidden expansions, a big disadvantage.
In truth, just moving your slow Pawns to any mineral path on the map will grants you an 'expansion'. Now I see i didnt explained that when a Pawn becomes attached to a mineral field, no other Pawn can harvest from that. So, 8 pawns (limit) harvesting from the 8 mineral fields will grant you an income of 8*2.5 = 20 normal workers.
You also can use the Omnispace to teleport the Pawns to any expansion you want.
Also, numbers can be OP..., but at this stage, the principal is to work the concepts. And then, find some new friends to help to play and collect a lot of feedbacks. =D
Remember: Siege Tanke used to cause 70 normal splash damage.
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I just want to play this to see how balanced it feels if at all. do you have a tech tree built up, because I feel like these are all dream units, there is no way this race would survive passed the early game.
You need to develop the tech tree/structure otherwise there is no way to know if this is even close to balanced, but a sick idea nonetheless.
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On May 01 2012 06:13 jacksonps wrote:
Remember: Siege Tanke used to cause 70 normal splash damage.
But you couldn't use siege tanks to win before the 1 minute mark.
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In truth, just moving your slow Pawns to any mineral path on the map will grants you an 'expansion'. Now I see i didnt explained that when a Pawn becomes attached to a mineral field, no other Pawn can harvest from that. So, 8 pawns (limit) harvesting from the 8 mineral fields will grant you an income of 8*2.5 = 20 normal workers.
And this feels op on the other hand, for the simple reason that it would be way easier to hide pawns (transported by transportation thingy.)
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On May 01 2012 07:46 Yonnua wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 06:13 jacksonps wrote:
Remember: Siege Tanke used to cause 70 normal splash damage. But you couldn't use siege tanks to win before the 1 minute mark.
Yes..., i really cant... =)
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Well, i see some of the units
Did you were inspire by WC3 units? most of them have many habilities, wich is kinda nonsense to me, i mean, its ok to have 1 or 2 casters units, and them, leave the rest of the units with a single habilitie that make it interesting
ie: Marines has stim, an active habilite that ads varietie, then, they gave Shield a upgrade to the HP
then you just have Stalkers with Blink that add a toon of micro to then
and finaly Lings with 2 upgrades to their statics, and one directly involves micro
I dindt really like most of the units, and the only one was the Omnispace, wich also is not comparable to the "drops-like" of the rest of the races, the comcept of how it transport units its interesting, but just that, meanwhile the other drop units have an extra habilitie, Heal, work as supply. creep spread and map control, and finally like a auxiliary pylon in this unit you can try to give it an interesting habilitie.
Sorry for my poor english
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Too many of the units have too many absurdly powerful abilities.
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NeoGeoOdin, thanks for your feedback. I see the Omnispace got the most 'like's, and the other units not that much.
I'm working back on the concepts, unit by unit, and combining them, so you'll see news soon.
For example, the Warrior is being changed to a light melee unit, without activated abilities.
I'm testing the 2 statics abilities, to choose one or other, but not both:
# ambidexterity (it can melee attack 2 units at same time) [to counter lings and zealots, but not that hard]
# some-sort-of-name (ranged attacks against it will give him a buff for a short period of time, like speed upgrade) [to counter marines or stalkers].
I have to finish the concept of the second unit after the Warrior to choose one of these abilities, or create new ones. Also, the Warrior can get even a new name. 'Warrior' is much conventional.
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Lol, some interesting ideas but literally every unit has like 4 bizarre and incredibly strong abilities. You will never be able to balance this. Ever.
Even balancing the workers would be basically impossible.
-Workers that dont return to base so they can be dropped anywhere o the map with no base
-tons more health/income than any other worker and cost tons more
-Reproduce exponentially
completely unbalancable without a team of 16 guys and several years of development time
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On May 03 2012 12:53 jacksonps wrote:
NeoGeoOdin, thanks for your feedback. I see the Omnispace got the most 'like's, and the other units not that much.
I'm working back on the concepts, unit by unit, and combining them, so you'll see news soon.
For example, the Warrior is being changed to a light melee unit, without activated abilities.
I'm testing the 2 statics abilities, to choose one or other, but not both:
# ambidexterity (it can melee attack 2 units at same time) [to counter lings and zealots, but not that hard]
# some-sort-of-name (ranged attacks against it will give him a buff for a short period of time, like speed upgrade) [to counter marines or stalkers].
I have to finish the concept of the second unit after the Warrior to choose one of these abilities, or create new ones. Also, the Warrior can get even a new name. 'Warrior' is much conventional.
If you don't mind me asking, how did you even add these abilities to begin with? I'd like to fiddle with something like this.
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The ambidexterity is simple do implement. Just add an splash damage limited to +1 unit. You add the damage effect, add an area search, exclude the target of the effect from the search (prevent the target to take the effect twice) and limit the units on the search by +1.
The second ability need to use triggers. Just add an event: Unit under attack, then add an action to buff the attacked unit (Warrior) by adding an behavior, simple way. In the trigger you can add any validation you want: Warrior is lower than half hp, attacker is armored etc.
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Every single unit is incredibly overpowered.
I'd play an RvR game tho.
A quick note- you have far too many abilities on these units. Consider the current game- units only have one or two abilities, even casters. The very first unit you have has all of the best abilities in the game- its a Blink Stim Snipe DT .
When you revamp these units, you should open Liquipedia to balance numbers, abilities, and the like.
I kind of like the idea of the Pawn, except not as the baseline worker. I think you pretty much HAVE to have regular workers to achieve any sort of balance.
But having Pawns be a tech unit... there's an interesting concept. They'd have to cost gas or something, so it's an investment to get them, but rewards tricky play hiding them on the map. They shouldn't come out before the early midgame, as every race will have a scouting option by that point. If they don't scout the gas you've invested in getting Pawns, and don't scout the map, perhaps you deserve that cool extra income. The pawns would have to permanently attach (so you can't just use 2 or 3 omnithings and teleport them around willy nilly), and it should take a couple minutes before they end up paying for themselves.
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Did you get ideas from the atlanteans in age of mythology? Their workers are exactly the same way.
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@Crownlol: the units arent ordered by tier, but alphabeticaly. The Dark Assassin is an tier3 unit, and the last, the Warrior, is the tier 1.
@NunedQ: Yes, the Pawn is based on the atlanteans workers, except they can haverst only minerals and can reproduce. But dont worry, they are getting completely redesigned. Right now, i'm testing these 2 ways:
# Pawns dont need to delivery resoucers in any building, but they need a main building near them that allows them to haverst. Without that building, they cant harvest, so they cant create an expantion so easily. The main building may cost 300 or 400, depending if it will produce workers or not.
# Pawns dont need to delivery resoucers in any building, but they collect resoucers in half rate instead normal rate. But with a main building near them, they collect resoucers in normal rate, creating a need of the main building.
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DAMMIT, i already wanted to create a 4th race, but when i'll release it officially, some ppl will say "Hey some unit looks like the revel race, you took some idea didn't you?"
:p the difference is you firstly created custom race, I am still checking for a potential mapmaker who will cooperate with me 
Anyway, the balance will be the hardest thing to do, just make it fun to play, and not just OP^^
Is it release on the EU?
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On May 04 2012 00:26 jacksonps wrote:
@Crownlol: the units arent ordered by tier, but alphabeticaly. The Dark Assassin is an tier3 unit, and the last, the Warrior, is the tier 1.
@NunedQ: Yes, the Pawn is based on the atlanteans workers, except they can haverst only minerals and can reproduce. But dont worry, they are getting completely redesigned. Right now, i'm testing these 2 ways:
# Pawns dont need to delivery resoucers in any building, but they need a main building near them that allows them to haverst. Without that building, they cant harvest, so they cant create an expantion so easily. The main building may cost 300 or 400, depending if it will produce workers or not.
# Pawns dont need to delivery resoucers in any building, but they collect resoucers in half rate instead normal rate. But with a main building near them, they collect resoucers in normal rate, creating a need of the main building.
Your t1 Warriors are better than Immortals. Just sayin.
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Lol, I was designing custom races months before beta even. Way before it was mainstream.
Actually I don't remember much about my custom race, I remember I was designing a worker that flew around with some sort of jet pack and carried minerals with it's feet. I forget everything else, though.
Still the idea of making custom races or total conversion mods is in the back of my head, though.
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On May 04 2012 00:54 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 00:26 jacksonps wrote:
@Crownlol: the units arent ordered by tier, but alphabeticaly. The Dark Assassin is an tier3 unit, and the last, the Warrior, is the tier 1.
@NunedQ: Yes, the Pawn is based on the atlanteans workers, except they can haverst only minerals and can reproduce. But dont worry, they are getting completely redesigned. Right now, i'm testing these 2 ways:
# Pawns dont need to delivery resoucers in any building, but they need a main building near them that allows them to haverst. Without that building, they cant harvest, so they cant create an expantion so easily. The main building may cost 300 or 400, depending if it will produce workers or not.
# Pawns dont need to delivery resoucers in any building, but they collect resoucers in half rate instead normal rate. But with a main building near them, they collect resoucers in normal rate, creating a need of the main building. Your t1 Warriors are better than Immortals. Just sayin.
I'm redesigning the Warrios because they are much more weak then they should be. And this isnot my opinion, this is what testes showed up!
They must counter Zealots, but 3 zealots can kill 4 Warrios easily, even with Hard Shield and etc. But that isnot all. They are being redesigning because the concept is bad right now; if it was just because they are weak, just giving they more points in some attribute would corret this..., but the concept is bad. =)
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I agree that the concept needs work.. But why must they counter Zealots? Shouldn't the relationship between them and other t1 units be pretty micro-based?
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On May 04 2012 01:31 Gfire wrote:
I agree that the concept needs work.. But why must they counter Zealots? Shouldn't the relationship between them and other t1 units be pretty micro-based?
So, if i but the ambidexterity, it'll be an micro fight.
# 1 zealot vs 1 warrior: Zealot wins.
# 2 zealots vs 2 warrios: Warrios wins (because both warrios will do double damage)
# 2 zealots microing vs 2 warrios: zealots can spread to avoid being attacked by the two warrios, but warrios can micro to walk together to force zealots get into the ambidexterity range.
Ambidexterity will rave an limited arc. It maybe 180°, 145° or 90°. Only testing the ballance will let me choose the better angle.
But, yes..., i agree you. Tier 1 units cant counter each other directily. Thanks for the feedback =)
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Why don't you just give the warriors 2 attacks?
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On May 04 2012 02:50 Yonnua wrote:
Why don't you just give the warriors 2 attacks?
I see it is more simple..., but this way the Warrior will be very like the Zealot, so there will be no inovation. I want to create a new unit, with new concepts. I tried other things, as example:
# ambidexterity gives the Warrior the option to use a second weapon, giving him the double damage, or use some sort of shield, giving him plus armor. But I think this will be innapropriate, because this kind of ability is much more like DOTA styles.
But just remember that all of this are at design time yet. The Warrior will be the tank of the army, so I am testing to give him buffs when he takes damage, what is much more appropriate and useful.
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A better example of concept is: countering the colossus. The only wat to counter the Colossus itnot killing it. If you can avoid the splash damage of him, it'll work fine to.
So i'm developoing a counter to the colossus that isnot like the Corruptors or Viking style..., is somethign innovator:
# Protector (this is the unit hole, not the name):
- Light, fly, cant attack, cant move when create the protector field (much like the Warp Prismo creates the power field).
- Can create an protector field with range 3 below it. Your units on the field take half damage (or no damage, testes will show wich to pick) from splash attacks; normal attacks causes full damage.
In the editor, damages have 4 types. One of them is for the Colossus and hellion type (splash without reduction by the distance) and the other is for Siege Tankes and Planetary fortress (with causes less damage by the distance). So its very easy to handle the damage the way you want depending on the type.
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Having a defensive area which allows you to avoid splash (a reverse dark swarm, in a way,) is interesting, but I think removing splash will mean that you will be discouraged from spreading your units, which seems like a bad thing to me. I'd rather something that you could cast on the area of the colossus which stops it from attacking until moving out of it, or something. Maybe like a disruption web that affects air units and colossi, so it could introduce some positioning even for air units.
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On May 04 2012 03:23 Gfire wrote:
Having a defensive area which allows you to avoid splash (a reverse dark swarm, in a way,) is interesting, but I think removing splash will mean that you will be discouraged from spreading your units, which seems like a bad thing to me. I'd rather something that you could cast on the area of the colossus which stops it from attacking until moving out of it, or something. Maybe like a disruption web that affects air units and colossi, so it could introduce some positioning even for air units.
I see your point. But on large battles its impossible to spread unts to avoid splash from colossus, due its great range. But see that the Protector will need to move forward if the protoss army get back a little..., so there is the micro to desactive/move/active..., then the protoss army can get you in this moment. I think this willnot remove the micro itself.
And things will change if we decide to make the protector affects also the AoE abilities, like Storms, Fungals and EMPs. So, see that its a lot of variables to finish the concept.
But I guess the concept of the Protector is great, so we can work on it and put it very good.
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I definitely like a way to deal with colossi that's designed around keeping your units alive, instead of killing off the colossi faster.
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I'm really confused because how is this a new race?
You took hero units from all of the 3 races and put them into one "race" lol
I expected new models.
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Literally everything seems overpowered. Just looking at tier 1:
Warrior: 75 minerals for a MASSIVE tank early game... wtf. Basically more dps than a marauder and more health and more armor for no gas and less mins.
Planeswalker: 50 less gas than a banshee for a tier 1 unit, nearly equivalent dps (much much higher v armored, slightly lower v light), much more tanky
Negator: Closest to being balanced but still seems to completely negate (haha!) any kind of tech rush. Thought you had a banshee? Actually I'm just gonna push it away and not allow it to move for 10 seconds. Modesty seems really hard to use, but again, let's say they got a tank. Modesty it and its already slow shots become EVEN slower. You compare it to using fungal growth, but infestors are a tier 2 unit that cost 100/150, not 50/75.
Also if warriors can't attack air, then there's no tier 1 that can attack air...
I understand that you want the race you create to be good, but everything is MASSIVELY unbalanced (from what the numbers look like)
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Oh also how many pawns would the player start with. Does it scale at about the same rate as every other race does? I feel like one of the other poster's ideas was best: have normal workers and have the pawn be a midgame unit you can create that costs a decent amount (including gas).
Otherwise I guess you'd have to start with 3. Then once you mined to 125, have worker 3 make worker 4, etc. It seems like thatd be INCREDIBLY difficult to balance. Since once you have 8 mining you're completely saturated. Also you could have your number of workers explode exponentially. They aren't limited by a building but by their own number. Playing against them you would almost certainly have to have some kind of early pressure so you can't have 3 pawns making 3 more pawns for your expo or something.
Also does your race have a defensive building? Oh and the obelisk definitely has to be nerfed as well. 200 for 20 supply? Everything else is 100 for 8 why would this not be 200 for 16 at the very max?
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Well, i like to see a new rework on the warrior for example, but try to tink on things that adds micro, always
The idea of two attacks has no sense, bacause only makes the unit 1A, and the the other habilite like a micro stim its interesting with a small buff on the speed the player can use this habilitie in the right moment, like surrounds, embosh or just running away
@Protector: This is a nice one, the comcept of denied the AoE damage its really really good
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Also that being said, it's a really cool idea and I hope you figure out a way to balance them. I had fun playing around in the little unit tester. I'd be willing to help you out trying to balance them
boxman.455 on us server
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i think you should add a special macro spell to the race(Protoss has chronos, Terran mules/scans, etc.) Pawn.
Make sure the gas collector building is very vulnerable, as if not, the race woukld get gas easily(gas steals would also be scary.
Negtors modesty: ummm... not many people can spend so much times spamming the spell on a million stalkers/roaches. You need to make this more applicable in lategame.
Too many castors. Feedback would be OP against this race.
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Ok, i added new concepts there. Let me say that the income of the Revel Race is still the same as anyother race, and the autocollect Pawn's ability (Pawn now is the Gatherer) is still.
Please visit http://www.revelrace.com and see it. There is a better explanation there.
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Better edit OP so ppl wont come here and blame at the warrior lol
@Shrine of the Gathering: Well, the scout its nice, but this buildding needs some habilities to compete againts the CC and Hacht, i mean, 3 habilities like them
The new worker its a nice redesing
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Thank you. I also like the current concept of the workers and the main building. =)
Much better then before.
I also posted a new unit concept.It's the Suppressor, that creates an protection area below it, that prevent your units within this area to take splash damage. Some expanation about this unit is on the site, so read it before get an opinion about it.
www.revelrace.com
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Hi everyone again. I'm sorry for these 2.5 months without any news. But I was working hard on the entire concept of the race. I deciced to post to the public only when I was done creating all the things..,. so now you have a Beta Revel Race up and running.
Please, take a look on the site, and also on the on the B.Net.
www.revelrace.com
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I made a video with the units in action. I know you all are paying attention to the HotS BR PvT, but i'll be thankfull if you see my video and give me some feedback. The video is already on the site. =)
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You have some really cool ideas, but it still feels imbalanced overall. But it's really hard to judge, because of the way the summoner works.
The arachnida with range 9 + the the air ships looks insanely strong;
Also: the floodbringer + the disciplines seems a bit imba in mineral lines.
A way to fix this is to change the death mirror that it has a void-ray like 'build up time' for maximum efficiency. (It killed those marines INCREDIBLY fast; imagine that to your worker line...)
The fact that a few floodbringers can save any important unit you ever have also seems a bit tricky to balance.
The 'shared sight' spell from the supressor should only work on, say, light units or something. (Or at least: not on massive units.) So that it is possible to kill of the unit and get rit of the spell: that's a decision the opponent then has to make.)
Planewalker + arachnida combination seems ridiculously strong, especially with some disciplines to add for total damage.
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Hi, Adrian. First of all, thanks for the feedback.
I'm now preparing the Battle Report, to see what points are really OP. But, the most of these units can be ballanced with some simple adjusts. For example, the Floodbringer may have energy cost to recall a massive unit changed to 200 (full energy), or simple cant target a massive unit.
The Death Mirror didnt killed all those marines with firepower. The Marines toke 15 damage back for each time they attacked the Death Mirror. So, the Death Mirror becomes almostly useless in a mineral line. And to counter ir you need units with high firepower, wich will do less attacks to kill the DM, taking less reflected damage.
I agree your suggestion to the Shared Sight. =)
The Planeswalker + Arachnida combo can be defeated by marines or hydras and archons. The Planeswalker is a biological unit and dont does bonus damage against archons (damage = 12 (24 vs armored) ).
By the way..., i'm studying the possibility to even add units to the other races to ballance everything. No possibility will be discarded if it can lead to a nice way.
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I wouldn't touch the other races. The coolest thing about your project (imo) is a whole new race.
What server do you work on?
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I like many of the ideas, they are really unique.
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The game is posted on the American server. I have no account on the others..., but i'll make an way.
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Putting the balance of the race aside for now, I am acually more concerned for the theme of your race (where do they fit in the starcraft universe?).
They seem to look a lot like the Hybrid, but the gatherer doesn't fit that theme at all, being a Terran model. I think you underestimate the importance of a theme that must follow through all units (the bio units and the protoss units you are using are world apart).
I think theorycrafting about a new race for Starcraft 2 is among the most awesome and challenging ways to spend a week as an amateur game designer (who has done the study, but doesn't use it to earn money: a.k.a me).
I will be writing a blog about the theory behind each race, what is the same about them and what is unique about them and why certain choices make them balanced the way they are. If you use that as a source before building a new race and then later add the theme (which I suggest to be Xel'Naga, not Hybrid) then you will end up with cleaner and more balanced units from the start.
I enjoyed reading through your ideas though and it is obvious you have put a lot of work into that costum race. However, for melee gameplay purposes (and I assume you want it to be used for that) it is simply missing the keen eye of several Grand Master players, Balance Designers and Model Artists.
When it is ready, I will be posting a link to the blog regarding how a new race should be constructed as a reply.
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Screw balance, have a blast 2v2ing (1 revel, 1 non-revel per team). There's 3 races, plenty of opportunity to see the RvX unit interaction.
Alternatively have 4v4 with the map divided into 3 horizontal map where 3 1v1's happen. Each team has 1 player of each race, and they are matched up (could be mirror, could be not). Revel player has teleporters and can reinforce each player, but 1-way only via teleporters (like once you send units to reinforce, they can't return.
. | X------------------------O |.
X . |X------------------------O |.X
. |X------------------------O |.
| are 10k-50k hp destructable rocks.
X and O's are each teams players.
The Revel player can reinforce units to each of the horizontal 1v1 maps through the teleporters (the "." 's).
Just throwing a random (but not so original, I imagine) idea out there. Point is, it need not be balanced for it to be fun. Just because its balanced doesn't make it fun.
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@Callyn: I really understand your concern, because it is one of mines. The gatherer wasnot designed to be a robot terran like unit..., but I'm a professional programmer (software developer, not game player) and I'm good to create codes, scripts and units behavior and effects etc. I'm not good at creating 3D models, paiting or things like that...., so I had no choice but use already existing models.
But the race have a background history. I'm creating the cinematics to post the video. The prophecy tells the Xel'Naga will return. The Revels are created by a Xel'Naga like, not the Xel'Nagas themself. I'm about to finish the background history, and publish the cinematics.
But the focus of this race is to have new alternative units working on a new alternative way, and focus the 1x1 fight.
@Chronopolis: There is a long way to ballance things on 1x1, and even more on 2x2, 3x3 and 4x4..., but not even Blizzard could made things right on XxX. But, yes, it need to be fun first. So, after being fun, being ballanced.
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On August 16 2012 17:37 Chronopolis wrote:
Screw balance, have a blast 2v2ing.
As someone who takes 2v2 serious, I am offended by the prospect of balance not mattering in 2v2 xD
In all seriousness, I am aware that 2v2 is harder to balance than 1v1, especially with such diverse races as the ones in SC2. However, this is precisely why 2v2 is even harder to balance than 1v1.
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Imagine that with 4 races... OMG, the chaos! XD
It's much easier make it fun than make it ballanced.
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On August 16 2012 23:09 Callynn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 17:37 Chronopolis wrote:
Screw balance, have a blast 2v2ing. As someone who takes 2v2 serious, I am offended by the prospect of balance not mattering in 2v2 xD In all seriousness, I am aware that 2v2 is harder to balance than 1v1, especially with such diverse races as the ones in SC2. However, this is precisely why 2v2 is even harder to balance than 1v1.
lol. 2v2 is hard to balance however 2v2 is hard to balance ^^
Is it possible to release this as a custom user map? I tried searching for it in arcade but didn't fnd anything.
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It is already released on the AM server. I dont have accounts on other servers yet. Just search for "revel" on the AM arcade.
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I have just finished reading every unit and building you made, and I strongly recommend you read my post on the game design problems you are facing (and looking over). You are changing things in the core of the game that every other of the 3 races have.
Read my post here to see what I'm talking about.
For your website's layout, you should use the same format as starcraft wiki, as you don't display a lot of information on the units and buildings in detail.
I also strongly recommend you look into what the theme of your race is, as it is currently lacking one.
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Hi, Callynn. I saw that someone posted a lot of opinions on my site, and it makes me wonder if it was you. I thanks every one that give me a feedback because it let me enhance my project further and further. I'll read your post and reply.
But for now I'm redesigning the 5 firsts units of my race (Summon, Disciple, Precipitate, an armored new unit and Negator). When I was recording the Battle Report I saw they are broken. Disciples too strong, the Summoner being able to create lots of units very fast, low infrastructure resourcers needed to create an army (about 2 Shrine of Fighting and 4 Summoners)... and more.
After I make the multiplayer solid enough, i'll work on the theme. I have the bases already, but it needs more work.
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If you want to help me test your map's balance I would be much obliged. However, I am playing on EU and I don't know if global play is working yet.
Reached master in 2v2 and top diamond in 1v1 two seasons ago.
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If you need any help with balance or testing, I would love to help. Same thing, if anyone in here wants to add me to play/test, just PM. I would love to help in balancing/making suggestions for units, because I think this could be really awesome once everything is worked out.
I'd type my opinions on the current balance, but they've pretty much all been said with the exception of the problems with just the economy of the race. They're like Zerg, except they take less bases to make the same amount of stronger units.
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I need people to help me with ballance. Do you guys have an account on the AM server?
*I also changed the site. I invested one day of work to create a new site using AJAX. And now you all can post opinions and reply someother opinions. Take a look:
http://www.revelrace.com
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On August 23 2012 13:17 jacksonps wrote:I need people to help me with ballance. Do you guys have an account on the AM server? *I also changed the site. I invested one day of work to create a new site using AJAX. And now you all can post opinions and reply someother opinions. Take a look: http://www.revelrace.com
I play exclusively on the AM server, so that's not an issue. I'm not gonna lie, I'm only silver. But my knowledge of the meta (and my skill, in many people's opinions) far exceeds my rank, so you can trust me that it's not a problem. Anyway, I don't know if you want to add me or not interested because of my rank, but I'd still love to help and play some games with these people.
Also, I like the new site!
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Man, I'm so happy with your help. Add me in-game: TeamSolid (I think there is only myself with this nick on AM).
I'm just finishing the new set of low tier units and then the tests will begin. If you see, there is a leak of an low tier armored unit, what make the Revels very vulnerable against banelings, reapers and hellions. And some other problems:
# Disciple are extremly good in numbers, making them extremly OP
# The secondary damage of the Disciple have not any difference from an ordinary attack, making it desnecessary
# The summoner can cast lots of unit very fast
# The ability Repel of the Negator overrides the Modesty ability, and the Modesty becomes deprecated.
I'm working on these and other issues..., and adding a new low tier armored unit. When i finish these all, i'll publish again.
I see this race never stops being updated..., but each update makes it better then before..., so, we are going on and on =)
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Yeah, one of my better buddies came online today so I'll definitely be trying out some units to test balance and confirm suspicions of mine. Won't be getting into that until I have hard data, but I do have some things in mind to look out for.
Also, I sent you a PM containing my character code, and I explained that I need yours too before I can add you. Just telling you because the PM button on these forums seems pretty out of the way and I'm not even sure how it notifies you that you received a PM in the first place. :D
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Just did some testing that took about an hour, and I came up with some very interesting results, and a few issues, unfortunately.
First off, others have mentioned it, but in the map, Zerg spawns with unspread creep and no larvae. This impacts the timings of Zerg builds by a good amount.
That being said, let's spoiler some data I collected over a match as Revel and a match as Zerg.
+ Show Spoiler +Revel
Half Saturation = ~420
Saturation (4:15) = ~840
Two-base saturation = ~1660
Three-base saturation* = ~2400
6 Gas = ~680
10:00**:
10 Summoners
17 Disciples
5 Precipitates
{47army supply}
Full two-base saturation
3 gas
Third about to start
{88 total supply}
15:00**:
12 Summoners (1/1)
17 Disciples (1/1)
23 Precipitates (1/1)
6 Mist Lords (0)
6 Death Mirrors (0/0)
{135 Army Supply}
Full three-base saturation*
5 gas
Fourth about to start
{200 total supply}
*I missed one patch on my third and had 2 Gatherers on shrineless mineral patches
**I missed a good amount of production from not being used to the race
And now for Zerg, the most economic of the three original races.
+ Show Spoiler +Half Saturation = ~320
Full Saturation (3:45*) = ~640
Two-base Saturation = ~1300
Three-base Saturation = ~2,000
6 Gas: ~700
*If you started the game with 1 larva, it would be a good deal faster
Also, I used an opening where I made no units and instead opted for optimal saturation on my first two bases before filling my third.
Mathematically, the increase per base doesn't really make sense; I'm just reporting what I see as an average total in the income tab. Also, I didn't include timings (except one) in the Zerg data because of the aforementioned lack of larvae at the start of the match. I think the data proves something, though - in its current state, the Revel economy is just too strong in my opinion. I think the increase in Shrine of the Gathering price to anything above 300 will definitely help, but I also think when you talk about midgame income, the fact that Revel far surpasses Zerg off 3 bases without a MULE mechanic is a bit OP. Again, just opinions.
I played my first actual match just a bit ago though against a low-level Terran friend of mine, and it immediately brought a few things to my attention.
First of all, what exactly do you intend to scout with? I mean, you can scout incoming 6 pools by launching a couple Beholders at about 2:15 (although holding them is much tighter - static defense goes up in an economic opening at around 3:15 while the lings arrive at 3:00 on Daybreak), but otherwise you're pretty much in the dark. Gatherers are slow and far too valuable to waste as a scout, and otherwise I guess you just have to hope for the best until you get a Disciple scout. Unless I'm doing it wrong.
Another "problem" is that there aren't really any fast units to work with before you hit tier 2/3, so defending drops and even playing against stim kiting becomes really difficult. Nevertheless, if you can force an engagement, you can pretty much hold any all-in off while still being on 2-3 bases.
I held off his push though, teched to Death Mirrors, and - well, I think you know how that ended. But just from a statistical standpoint...
+ Show Spoiler +Beginning of battle
Revel
•5 Summoners (1/1)
•32 Precipitates (1/1)
•4 Mist Lords (1/1)
•9 Death Mirrors (0/0)
Terran
•56 Marines (stim, 0/0)
•1 Marauder (lol)
•3 Siege Tanks (0/0)
•2 Medivacs (0)
Results
Revel
•21 Precipitates
•1 Mist Lord
•7 Death Mirrors
Terran
•2 Medivacs
Now, I do understand that he was greatly outnumbered and wasn't familiar with the Revel units. I also understand that he didn't have any upgrades, but in all fairness, he went for a 2rax + siege tank push before taking his nat, and once again he didn't even know what he was up against. I still feel like this proved the sheer strength of this race even more.
And that concludes my findings for the day. None of these comments are meant to criticize you - again, I love the race. I just want to make it better for people to play.
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honestly this would be much better and easier to balance if the workers functioned the same as other workers from different races, as of right now its incredibly hard to balance and as stated by cougarsgonnacoug its hard to scout as well.
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why don't u public it on NA or EU ? More players join, more feedback
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On August 24 2012 11:33 foxj wrote:
why don't u public it on NA or EU ? More players join, more feedback
Can't speak for EU, but the AM server is just the official name for the "NA" server. Just search "Revel" and it should come up.
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@Cougar: omg, greate job, man! You did a very valuable job. In fact, i noticed the extra income the Revels got. But, you all might think "didn't the creator of this race noticed this?" The answare is "yes"..., but there are so much things to ballance here, and i cant do that all at once..., so, lots of them still broken.
About the income:
# Each Gatherer/Mineral Patch provides fixed 100 income. So, a mineral line saturated provides 800 fixed. This value, alone, is so much easy to ballance..., just increase the time between each collect to it reach the 80 income per mineral patch.
# About the scout..., you are very right about the value of the gatherer to use it to scout. The Behold Spirit is working in an old concept. It will become an lifetime spirit, maybe an flying or non-collider, and will can be casted about 1:00. So, it can scout the enemy base, or any other spot of the map without the concern of losing the income of 1 worker.
# About the low level units..., they are so problematic. But not an problem that can be fixed by changing values. It is an concept problem. I mean, they have a very little distance from being OP and UP, from being much useful or useless, and are concept that arent working together well. So, all the tier1 units are being remade. I'm working on a new version of the Berserker for tier1.5, and removing the Berserker from the high tier, and replace it with another unit.
# About the Death Mirror, i think that it's one of the better concepts. Because it can work very well just by readjust its points and costs. Now it's a bit more resistent, but reflets only 5 (10 vs armored) points of damage, and deal a bit more damage (and gains more HP each attack *lifesteal)
# To deffend against drops, the Hunters are very good. Also, the Disruptor is good against Marines. I cant be totally sure, but the Disruptor seems to be OP against marines (but not against marauders). So, it is also on the line to be ballanced.
I cant dedicate to the Revels right now because i'm jammed on the work. I have a secondary life (the real life). But i'm working on the site, and thinking about the new concepts each break i take.
@GoldDot: I understand you saying some of these things are unecessary, or can be more simple. But what i want is to create some alternative mechanics of units. Using existing concepts isnot an choice for me. But the harvesting system is easy to ballance, as I said above. The most difficult is creating the low tier units, because the possibilities are very limited avoiding the three existing concepts: the heavy one, the fast one, the ranged one.
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I made some updates on the race, but i'm really unmotivated because no people has played with the race, nor did I receive any feedbacks, good or bads, after the job done.
I think we all have to gain with this project, and i'm surprised because more than 7000 people had see this project (at last, this page) and not even 1 of them have been interested to play or participate. I think my ideas aren't the worst of the world, else correct me if i'm wrong.
Anyway, i'm writing here that i made some changes, and added a few new units, and i'll be pleasured if you can view the website, check out the changes and perhaps even play the game on the arcade@wings and leave the feedback on it.
Dispite this frustation, i'm glad i did a great job and putting all of me to do the better I could and creating a project that, at last me, did never seen anyone else being able or willing to do the same.
Thank you. =)
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EPT
