So WCG annouced this quite quietly but ESV worked hand and hand with WCG this year to make the Grand Final maps. They wanted their own unique versions and we think we came up with it. So since they are not published worldwide yet (in the process right now) I figured I'd show you guys the maps and the changes.
WCG Shakuras Plateau: (Published under "WCG2011 GF Shakuras Plateau)
-Added supply depots at the bottom of each main ramp. -Cross spawn positions only. -Aesthetics redone to Mar Sara (Desert).
WCG Metalopolis: (Published under "WGG2011 GF Metalopolis)
-Cross spawn positions only. -Added supply depots at the bottom of each main ramp. -High Yield Expansion changed to Normal Expansion. -Some aesthetics changed to Tarsonis. -Changed lighting to Daytime. -Added the space shark in the center.
WCG Antiga Shipyard: (Published under WCG2011 GF Antiga Shipyard)
-Cross spawn positions only. -High Yield Expansion changed to Normal Expansion. -Added supply depots at the bottom of each main ramp. -Changed aesthetics to Castanar (Space Platform).
WCG Tal'Darim Altar: (Published under WCG2011 GF Tal'Darim Altar)
-Cross spawn positions only. -Tileset changed to Char (Volcanic).
WCG The Shattered Temple:
-Cross spawn positions only. -High Yield Expansion changed to Normal Expansion. -Added supply depots at the bottom of each main ramp. -Tileset mixed.
They also had me write a team bio (which I guess was not used) so here it is if anyone is interested!
The ESV Mapmaking team is the very first Starcraft II mapmaking team ever. Created during the early beta on Starcraft II under the name iCCup (later changed to ESV). Since that time the ESV Mapmaking Team has shown they are the premiere mapmakers in the world. Including such notable maps as the highly successful Testbug, the ESV staff have worked with every top tournament in the world like MLG, ESL, TSL 3, IPL and many many more!
We have a great staff and here is some information on them:
Patrick "Diamond" Soulliere II: The creator and owner of the ESV Mapmaking Team, Diamond has had a fascination with maps from his first entry into the Starcraft: Brood War scene. Working with near daily with world-renowned Starcraft caster Artosis on adding map information to Liquipedia, to now owning the very premiere map team, it has come full circle. While only having created one Starcraft: Brood War map in his life and none in Starcraft 2, Diamond has been able to spot the next big thing in maps from a long time out, most notably predicting the success of Testbug but also demanding the recreation and update of the new 2 player superstar map Sanshorn Mist AE. Most notably has been responsible of the re emergence of the PandaBearGuy and constantly tries to figure out how to work neutral invincible Battlecruisers that shoot Banelings into every map possible.
Josh "ProdiG" Folland: One of the first and longest standing members of the mapmaking community, ProdiG got his start making maps the day the map creator was released. He has been a driving force in custom competitive maps, and the ideas and concepts he has helped create will be integral parts of mapmaking for years to come in both 1v1 and 2v2. Some of ProdiG's highlight maps include Neo Enigma, Ithaca, and the 2v2 maps Citadel of Gaia. He hosts his own weekly mapmaking show, "Mapcraft: State of the Terrain" on ESV TV every week.
Peyton "Monitor" Levin: Very much like ProdiG, Monitor got his start in SC2 competitive mapmaking very early in the Starcraft II beta, and instantly became one of the most influential members of the mapmaking community. Originally starting under his own team, Monitor and his staff joined the ESV Mapmaking Team very early on. Since the two teams merged, the result has been amazing. Monitor is a man of many hats, and although his maps are always great, it's what he does behind the scenes that makes him a superstar. Monitor connects all the teams, gives advice to mapmakers of all skill levels on the Teamliquid.net forums, and is a very important piece of the puzzle that is the ESV Map Team. His notable maps include TL Map Contest Finalist Korhal Compound, Pawn RE, and Sungsu Crossing AE.
Philippe "Superouman" CWIK: Superouman is easily the driving force behind Non-Korean mapmaking, and the most successful Non-Korean mapmaker on the planet for SC2. His work has been featured by major organizations as far back as Starcraft: Brood War and his success in SC2 has been unparalleled. He is the creator of the map that broke every boundary for mapmaking Testbug, which helped usher in a new era of map design, thought, and texturing. Testbug went on to be used in roughly 1,000 professional SC2 games across the globe in 2011, and heading into 2012 he already has Sanshorn Mist AE and Cloud Kindgdom, finalists in the IPL and TL mapmaking contests (respectively). Every map he releases is a work of art, and almost unarguably very ahead of it's time. For consistent quality, no one comes close to the works of art Superouman creates.
George "G.Wen" Wen: G.Wen is one of the crew originally brought over with Monitor, and has proven to be a very talented mapmaker. Often pushing the boundaries of map design and layout, his map have been a quiet storm. Hailing from Toronto, Ontario G.Wen is a Mid-Level Masters Random player on the US server. One of his notable maps is Empress Marsh.
Vilberg "Grebliv" Kristinsson: Grebliv like all the other before, started very early in the Starcraft II Beta and recently has really hit his stride. Sancturary, Grebliv's most recent map is a TL Map Contest Finalists and looks to be one of the very best 3 player maps ever since Testbug. He also recently remade the BW Map, Othello into it's new Othello AE version. Coming from Iceland, he quietly is becoming one of the most skilled and accomplished mapmakers in the world. You can find him lurking around the Teamliquid.net Cusotm Maps forum.
Albert "Neobowman" Jung: Neobowman is a long time mapmaker, that much like Grebliv has enjoyed a great amount of recent success. He was the one responsible for the fan favorite Katrina AE, and also has come up with the recent hit, Bardiche. Neobowman also created the most underrated map of all time, Starlight Breaker. The sole member of the ESV Mapmaking Team of Korean descent, he currently resides in Canada, and brings many new ideas and concepts to both the ESV Mapmaking Team, but also the community as a whole. Also the original creator of the Space Shark.
Alec "Timetwister22" Cooper: The most recent addition to the ESV Mapmaking Team, Timetwister is a bit of a mapmaking phenom. His very first map he ever created is a finalist in the TL Mapmaking Contest, beating out hundreds of other maps made by mapmakers with MUCH more experience. His talent was recognized and he was added very quickly after. The map Haven's Lagoon is the TL Mapmaking Contest Finalist, and could easily make it into the Blizzard ladder on his very first map. Timetwister is now more active on the Teamliquid.net Custom Maps Forum.
These changes are pretty dumb tbh. They might as well rename Shakuras Plateau to Mar Sara Plateau and Tal'Darim Altar to Garm Brood Altar or something. Also, I'm not sure why they removed the gold bases in all the maps. They're gold bases for a reason...
On November 26 2011 11:27 TehTemplar wrote: These changes are pretty dumb tbh. They might as well rename Shakuras Plateau to Mar Sara Plateau and Tal'Darim Altar to Garm Brood Altar or something. Also, I'm not sure why they removed the gold bases in all the maps. They're gold bases for a reason...
Actually the texture changes are just to spice up some of the games. It isn't a big change, but it will provide a unique feeling to the maps despite how long most of them have been in tournament use.
And removing the gold bases isn't necessarily a bad thing- every tournament is starting to do it because they benefit Terran more than other races in every matchup (because they're mineral starved instead of gas starved), and are too easy for Zerg to take vs. a fast expanding Protoss.
On November 26 2011 11:27 TehTemplar wrote: These changes are pretty dumb tbh. They might as well rename Shakuras Plateau to Mar Sara Plateau and Tal'Darim Altar to Garm Brood Altar or something. Also, I'm not sure why they removed the gold bases in all the maps. They're gold bases for a reason...
Most competitive tournaments have removed gold base already because it can become quite unbalance when a terran players spam mule onto it.
On November 26 2011 11:27 TehTemplar wrote: These changes are pretty dumb tbh. They might as well rename Shakuras Plateau to Mar Sara Plateau and Tal'Darim Altar to Garm Brood Altar or something. Also, I'm not sure why they removed the gold bases in all the maps. They're gold bases for a reason...
Actually the texture changes are just to spice up some of the games. It isn't a big change, but it will provide a unique feeling to the maps despite how long most of them have been in tournament use.
And removing the gold bases isn't necessarily a bad thing- every tournament is starting to do it because they benefit Terran more than other races in every matchup (because they're mineral starved instead of gas starved), and are too easy for Zerg to take vs. a fast expanding Protoss.
Taking a second look at the maps, I think that you are mostly right, but the aesthetic changes honestly make the map look worse than it initially was.
Don't listen to that guy, everything you've done is in extremely good taste. From a high level player perspective and as a spectator changes like this should be embraced!!
No gold and cross positions is fucking beautiful! One of the only changes I would have considered would be to take away the rocks guarding the gold on Shattered Temple as they are kind of redundant at this point.
Don't like this, the tileset is as iconic if not moreso than the map itself, changing it while keeping the map doesn't make a lot of sense and would only confuse players as to whether it's the same map or not. It cheapens the whole thing imo.
On November 26 2011 12:37 Plexa wrote: When all spawns are forced cross, you know there is something wrong with the game.
Yes, unfortunately. That is why I make 2 player maps :/ Edit: And do you really need cross positions on tal'darim? Because the close positions are long enough...
I don't quite agree with the re-texturing of old maps, in particular I downright hate the new Tal'Darim and Shakuras. Tal'Darim just looks bad and Shakuras had its own unique fibe due to the lighting and the shakuras tileset. Also Shattered Temple middle looks extremely boring visually.
However what I disagree with the most is with forcing cross spawns on every map. I can understand it being necessary on say 4 spawn rotational maps, since the nature of them means one side might have a slight edge due to how the rotation works. However on maps like Metal, Shakuras and Shattered there is no reason to remove close by air.
Close by air encourages some more different approaches to the game and involves different strategies and tactics, drop play and air harass is more popular which can also lead to more diverse games. Its also interesting to see how players adapt their strategies to close by air or cross spawn maps.
By forcing cross spawn you're basically cutting out tons of fun and potentially spectacular strategies and plays. Cloaked banshee play, early drop play, stargate pressure etc
I really wish we'd let the meta-game play out more before committing to such rash action.
On November 26 2011 13:25 Destructicon wrote: I don't quite agree with the re-texturing of old maps, in particular I downright hate the new Tal'Darim and Shakuras. Tal'Darim just looks bad and Shakuras had its own unique fibe due to the lighting and the shakuras tileset. Also Shattered Temple middle looks extremely boring visually.
However what I disagree with the most is with forcing cross spawns on every map. I can understand it being necessary on say 4 spawn rotational maps, since the nature of them means one side might have a slight edge due to how the rotation works. However on maps like Metal, Shakuras and Shattered there is no reason to remove close by air.
Close by air encourages some more different approaches to the game and involves different strategies and tactics, drop play and air harass is more popular which can also lead to more diverse games. Its also interesting to see how players adapt their strategies to close by air or cross spawn maps.
By forcing cross spawn you're basically cutting out tons of fun and potentially spectacular strategies and plays. Cloaked banshee play, early drop play, stargate pressure etc
I really wish we'd let the meta-game play out more before committing to such rash action.
I completely agree. Also, if they are going to edit the maps in the first place, they could at least fix the positional imbalance in Shattered and Metalopolis.
Cool changes. I mean not something groundbreaking but at least will bring some variety to the old maps. Although I do think that cross pos only in Taldarim was a little bit of overkill.
look good. Great job guys. I mean, Bel'shir Beach was changed to a different style to work with the seasons, why not change up these maps to bring some more spice to them.
I do think some of the maps don't have to be forced cross positions though, but /shrug, it's not that bad either way.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to make a good looking lava map in SC2, unfortunately
Renaming the maps makes sense for lore but pro players would get confused and those guys get cranky pretty quick over pretty small things, so there's no way they'll do it.
I agree the new look is quite nice but was it worth it? what's the point ? o.o
Also the depot thing makes sense, not sure if I like cross only on metal... especially since they took out the gold, too. Terran has a slightly higher win rate vs Zerg on there which can probably be helped a bit by removing the gold, but making it cross as well? not sure about that. It might make it even harder for PvZ.
On another hand, I like the generally brighter maps
Woah, feels really bizarre, specially Tal'darim/Shakuras though, I think this is a kinda cool thing though... but I don't really see why every map needs to be cross spawn....
On November 26 2011 12:37 Plexa wrote: When all spawns are forced cross, you know there is something wrong with the game.
Heart of the Swarm's constructable rocks will fix it, never fear.
On topic: The map changes give them a fresh feel -- I'm sure it'll be nice to see when spectating!
Haha. Well maps are part of the game Plexa, so I think it's better just to say if there's something wrong with the "game", it can be safely fixed by the maps! :D
Either that or there is something wrong with the rules... lol
On November 26 2011 14:57 Adebisi wrote: Woah, feels really bizarre, specially Tal'darim/Shakuras though, I think this is a kinda cool thing though... but I don't really see why every map needs to be cross spawn....
Wow wtf, I thought it was only metal. Well I don't have too much of a problem with cross spawn only, it'll give us more epic games hopefully, but I think it would be more balanced otherwise =/
Omg lol even tal'darim is cross...
Well, with all the golds gone, I hope Zerg won't be over-favored =/
On November 26 2011 13:53 emc wrote: remove the rocks on the previous gold bases on shattered temple and thats about it. Looks good
I agree, but that would totally fuck up the way the map is played lol. I think they should have kept that as a gold, it was fine =/
The issue with removing the rocks on that third (even if non-gold) is it makes it ridiculously easy for Zerg to get a quick 3rd, since it's so close to the natural. It's sure to be a controversial issue, but I think the mapmakers ultimately made the right choice here.
I like some of the changes but I don't see the point of changing the textures, backgrounds, and just graphical designs of the map. It really only adds negative effects for the players. I also think some of the changes are zerg favored, coming from a random player. One thing I don't like is forced cross-spawns on Tal'darim.
So all you guys did was force cross spawns, add some neutral depots, replace the gold minerals, and paint it with new textures? I applaud the 2nd & 3rd changes, but I don't think forcing cross spawns was really necessary. You're basically saying zergs need all the help they can get on these maps, which is not true. Having close-air positions enabled gives players different strats & tactics to choose from, which is all gone now.
I also don't get why you gave the maps a makeover. I guess having something different to look at is always nice, but is that the only reason? Tal'Darim especially looks quite dark to me which I don't really like.
At least they're not using Xel'Naga Caverns. That's a good thing I guess.
I find the new textures more distracting than appeasing. Sure, it will give us observers a new 'feel' but to the players, it's more distracting than anything else.
i think it's kinda sad when a big tournament approaches some of the best mapmakers in the world and makes them rework some mediocre maps from medievil times instead of introducing some original new and better maps they could have used at least 1 esv map
No, these maps are just wrong. You can't keep those names and change the tileset to something completely different. It totally violates the meaning of those names.
On November 26 2011 17:24 Telcontar wrote: So all you guys did was force cross spawns, add some neutral depots, replace the gold minerals, and paint it with new textures? I applaud the 2nd & 3rd changes, but I don't think forcing cross spawns was really necessary. You're basically saying zergs need all the help they can get on these maps, which is not true. Having close-air positions enabled gives players different strats & tactics to choose from, which is all gone now.
I also don't get why you gave the maps a makeover. I guess having something different to look at is always nice, but is that the only reason? Tal'Darim especially looks quite dark to me which I don't really like.
At least they're not using Xel'Naga Caverns. That's a good thing I guess.
In everything you are discussing "you guys" = "WCG".
We just did the changes as they wanted.
On November 26 2011 17:47 RaiKageRyu wrote: No, these maps are just wrong. You can't keep those names and change the tileset to something completely different. It totally violates the meaning of those names.
Bel'Shir Beach, also I ran the maps past Blizz personally.
On November 26 2011 17:44 lefix wrote: i think it's kinda sad when a big tournament approaches some of the best mapmakers in the world and makes them rework some mediocre maps from medievil times instead of introducing some original new and better maps they could have used at least 1 esv map
I fought for it, but without community demand it's an uphill battle.
Some retextures actually look pretty good (i like the Antiga Redux) but others just fell off - i especially dislike the texture changes on Shattered. Looks pretty random und dull. Meltage showed how you can combine Korhal pattern and gras - i don't like how it has been done here.
I also hate the forced cross - to some degree favors toss and on top of this might favor dumb cheese (because you'll always know where ur opponent is located). Would also be so much more awesome if you could have get one ESV map in it
On November 26 2011 17:24 Telcontar wrote: So all you guys did was force cross spawns, add some neutral depots, replace the gold minerals, and paint it with new textures? I applaud the 2nd & 3rd changes, but I don't think forcing cross spawns was really necessary. You're basically saying zergs need all the help they can get on these maps, which is not true. Having close-air positions enabled gives players different strats & tactics to choose from, which is all gone now.
I also don't get why you gave the maps a makeover. I guess having something different to look at is always nice, but is that the only reason? Tal'Darim especially looks quite dark to me which I don't really like.
At least they're not using Xel'Naga Caverns. That's a good thing I guess.
In everything you are discussing "you guys" = "WCG".
We just did the changes as they wanted.
And I meant WCG when I said it. I wish they would consider adding at least 1 new map to the pool. There's plenty of time until the finals for the participants to practice on a new map and become familiar with it. I'm quickly getting bored seeing the same maps in every tournament. I guess that might have to do with the frequency of SC2 events more than anything else, but still.
i hope this crossspawn only disease soon dies out, makes "4 player"maps look like badly made 2 player maps even more. I understand the golds, since they will break every player the neck if they ever fall behind and get contained. (the early game problems toss have against golds can be fixed with rocks ). So the changes are more to make the games longer and more awesome, removing golds is good for allowing comebacks (though i would have loved to see a terran lift their main as soon as they had a contain on antiga xD). But the crossspawns works against good games.
Anyway desert map !!! great job on the retexturing esv team ^.^ , i like meta alot. Shattered is also cool. winter is coming <3
I have to agree that they look nice, good work on that guys, but I am also not happy with the WCG choice on cross spawns only. I think that the issue is not the game itself as some people. Only in severe cases, like Metal close by ground, do I think it is needed. It seems like more and more the game is getting dumbed down for the players instead of forcing the players to up their skill and practice.
On November 26 2011 17:44 lefix wrote: i think it's kinda sad when a big tournament approaches some of the best mapmakers in the world and makes them rework some mediocre maps from medievil times instead of introducing some original new and better maps they could have used at least 1 esv map
On November 26 2011 17:44 lefix wrote: i think it's kinda sad when a big tournament approaches some of the best mapmakers in the world and makes them rework some mediocre maps from medievil times instead of introducing some original new and better maps they could have used at least 1 esv map
100% agree, makes me cry
Also 4p maps with forced cross are just bad 2p maps! Especially the 4th/5th/6th (depends on map) that is the empty nat/main is just rly bad design for a map that's basically a 2p.
I hope prodiG did the Meta retexturing, absolute torture xD
lol those maps names doesnt comfirm the location from the loreX_X (shakuras is the main plannet from the dts lol and it isnt dessert but looks cool) i hate the new valcano taldariam altar.
On November 26 2011 17:44 lefix wrote: i think it's kinda sad when a big tournament approaches some of the best mapmakers in the world and makes them rework some mediocre maps from medievil times instead of introducing some original new and better maps they could have used at least 1 esv map
I fought for it, but without community demand it's an uphill battle.
let's hope the (imo:so-so) visuals gets some parts of the audience excited enough to ask for new maps. :/ guess that is the most the mapping community can get right now...
I think it's official now that Starcraft 2 mapping isn't going anywhere. Mappers that don't want to try new things because it *could* break the game, 4 player rotational maps a gogo, copies of already existing maps, mapping contests that reward little tweaks...
Ok changes were asked by the WCG but even the retexture is amateurish at best. Shattered temple's reskin is an insult to artists that make maps and don't get the coverage ESV gets. I can see where the guy clicked to place textures, there's not even a stroke it's a series of dots ! I would advise you to watch a few tutorials...
On November 26 2011 11:27 TehTemplar wrote: These changes are pretty dumb tbh. They might as well rename Shakuras Plateau to Mar Sara Plateau and Tal'Darim Altar to Garm Brood Altar or something. Also, I'm not sure why they removed the gold bases in all the maps. They're gold bases for a reason...
Actually the texture changes are just to spice up some of the games. It isn't a big change, but it will provide a unique feeling to the maps despite how long most of them have been in tournament use.
And removing the gold bases isn't necessarily a bad thing- every tournament is starting to do it because they benefit Terran more than other races in every matchup (because they're mineral starved instead of gas starved), and are too easy for Zerg to take vs. a fast expanding Protoss.
On the other hand the geysirs on the fourth, fifth and sixth bases benefit P and Z more than Terran because you don't really have any use for that gas. I don't mind getting rid of gold bases but they should also limit the amount of gas you can mine in total.
I don't really like that those maps are cross position only on some of the biggest maps currently used for tournament play. Doesn't feel like a well balanced map pool.
Certain tilesets can be harder on the eyes than others. I believe they changed El Nino in BW to a different tileset because of progamers complaining about it.
Great initiative by WCG, though. Glad to see they've spiced it up a little bit, and all the standard tournament balance changes are intact.
Oh, and OGN casters + SC2 = $$$. Can't wait to see what the future holds.
Lore issues aside (really?), I like the retexturing. It makes it obvious which version is the WCG version. It looks different. I'd still like more unique maps, though.
Cross-only on Tal'Darim, though? Was this a problem?
Graphics are nice( especially shakuras), but , like other people said, mapmakers really need to start making some new maps. Hell, they don't have to be so afraid, if the map is imba then it will be removed from pools, but at least you learnt something new about map making. Hell, in BW some maps (longinus iirc) was freakin t favored in tvz and still was used in a MSL. Next MSL, when they understood it wasn't a balaanced map, they removed it and created a new map. In bw strategies and trends were heavily influenced by maps. At the moment i really don't feel like map are influencing SC2 strategies/metagaming.
On November 27 2011 03:35 IGotPlayguuu wrote: Graphics are nice( especially shakuras), but , like other people said, mapmakers really need to start making some new maps. Hell, they don't have to be so afraid, if the map is imba then it will be removed from pools, but at least you learnt something new about map making. Hell, in BW some maps (longinus iirc) was freakin t favored in tvz and still was used in a MSL. Next MSL, when they understood it wasn't a balaanced map, they removed it and created a new map. In bw strategies and trends were heavily influenced by maps. At the moment i really don't feel like map are influencing SC2 strategies/metagaming.
only a few players actually create strategies for the maps. But maps are starting to be more then 4 bases per start posi and an open field, so i think we are on a good way for tournaments. Also i think there are quiet alot maps for sc2, but tournaments just stick with the save ones more then they did in bw. Mostly because players don't complain about the fan favorites even if they are imba, like meta for example.
On November 27 2011 03:35 IGotPlayguuu wrote: Graphics are nice( especially shakuras), but , like other people said, mapmakers really need to start making some new maps. Hell, they don't have to be so afraid, if the map is imba then it will be removed from pools, but at least you learnt something new about map making. Hell, in BW some maps (longinus iirc) was freakin t favored in tvz and still was used in a MSL. Next MSL, when they understood it wasn't a balaanced map, they removed it and created a new map. In bw strategies and trends were heavily influenced by maps. At the moment i really don't feel like map are influencing SC2 strategies/metagaming.
only a few players actually create strategies for the maps. But maps are starting to be more then 4 bases per start posi and an open field, so i think we are on a good way for tournaments. Also i think there are quiet alot maps for sc2, but tournaments just stick with the save ones more then they did in bw. Mostly because players don't complain about the fan favorites even if they are imba, like meta for example.
Tournaments stick to GSL/Ladder maps because: -Players will only want to play in tournaments on maps that they know -Players almost exclusively practice on ladder maps or GSL maps -GSL seems to only use korean maps from LS and JackyPrime -Good Ladder maps do not rotate often; the ones that do are too bad to be used (abyssal caverns, searing crater, etc.) -No major tournament is willing to risk trying untested maps because it could cause many more problems than benefit
So basically you can't just ask foreigners to 'make new maps'. We are. The issue has nothing to do with mapmakers, it has to do with the structure of Starcraft 2 right now. If you want to seriously do something about it, I think one of the only things the community can do is to push or petition for new maps in foreign tournaments. But complaining to mapmakers is definitely not the place to do it [note: I'm not directing this comment at anybody lol].
On November 27 2011 04:21 monitor wrote: -GSL seems to only use korean maps from LS and JackyPrime
This is the important part. The GSL uses one of the most closed off systems ever (only Prime maps) and refuses to accept any foreign maps. Gisado claims it's because we don't speak Korean but when I tweeted him in Korean that I have a translator and he could email me in Korean he never replied.
So if you guys are sick of these maps, do something. Ask Gisado, Mr Chae or whomever for foreign maps.
It's really maddening to get hated on for re skinning these maps when there is such a lack of demand for new maps that it won't happen.
that is the most bad ass looking tal'darim ever. i like the tileset changes, will defiantly spice things up for the viewers. idk how i feel about the no golds but i think it will still make for a fun tourney to watch
actually i just remembered one VERY bad thing about the new tilesets, etc.
Some players and professionals especially can rely on the graphical cues to show them where to put their buildings... if you're redoing all that, then they'll have to relearn, adapt, etc. or whatever. It's not going to be good =/ Imagine when you're trying to FFE on a map, and you're not sure where to put the Pylon, and fumble for a few seconds trying to measure it out.
It'd be nice if we could enjoy four player maps that had every spawn position be viable, like in BW. If the maps are truly a problem where we need to butcher them just to make it playable, they need to be removed.
Unnecessary cross position forcing(most of the time, you only need to force non-close. Why force cross on Shakuras and TDA?)
Aesthetic changes were fine until TDA imo. Most of them looked more bright - better to watch - but TDA Char tileset is retarded.
I also don't like the idea of all maps being non-gold, but it's at least acceptable.
Overall, many unnecessary changed.
I guess it is cross on Shakuras Plateau because that they might want it to go split/split on expo's, which I like. TDA has some map imbalances, judging by where you spawn. It can sometimes be hard to expand to your normal fourth if you got the "bad" position. That is a couple of reasons at least.
On November 27 2011 13:35 Warpath wrote: Must suck to be approached to load a pre-existing map, click a button to change the tileset, plop down 4 neutral depots, and adjust spawn positions.
I hope at some point we can have BW style map systems where they are consistently changing from league to league and season to season.
We did much more than click a button to change the tileset :p I hope in the future new maps can be introduced too though!
On November 26 2011 12:37 Plexa wrote: When all spawns are forced cross, you know there is something wrong with the game.
Heart of the Swarm's constructable rocks will fix it, never fear.
On topic: The map changes give them a fresh feel -- I'm sure it'll be nice to see when spectating!
Haha. Well maps are part of the game Plexa, so I think it's better just to say if there's something wrong with the "game", it can be safely fixed by the maps! :D
Either that or there is something wrong with the rules... lol
On November 26 2011 14:57 Adebisi wrote: Woah, feels really bizarre, specially Tal'darim/Shakuras though, I think this is a kinda cool thing though... but I don't really see why every map needs to be cross spawn....
Wow wtf, I thought it was only metal. Well I don't have too much of a problem with cross spawn only, it'll give us more epic games hopefully, but I think it would be more balanced otherwise =/
Omg lol even tal'darim is cross...
Well, with all the golds gone, I hope Zerg won't be over-favored =/
All cross spawns. Mostly very open maps. No gold bases.
I've never said this before in my life but this tournament looks damn good for zerg...
On November 27 2011 04:21 monitor wrote: -GSL seems to only use korean maps from LS and JackyPrime
This is the important part. The GSL uses one of the most closed off systems ever (only Prime maps) and refuses to accept any foreign maps. Gisado claims it's because we don't speak Korean but when I tweeted him in Korean that I have a translator and he could email me in Korean he never replied.
So if you guys are sick of these maps, do something. Ask Gisado, Mr Chae or whomever for foreign maps.
It's really maddening to get hated on for re skinning these maps when there is such a lack of demand for new maps that it won't happen.
The entire map making situation is retarded, yes. But per this thread, what really did you expect ... all you did was retexture the maps. What is so special about that? What exactly are you looking for here?
On November 27 2011 15:29 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: TBH with all cross spawns on every map, and no gold, why do you even need the depot blocking the ramp? xD
Perhaps we should contact ESV and let them know what we think. But they'll probably check here too i guess.
I realize it was WCG's call, not ESV's, but none of these changes make sense to me. I don't feel it was necessarily to change the textures at all, they actually look quite a bit worse visually now in my opinon... and why is Tal Darim force cross spawn? That map isn't imbalanced in any positions, always cross spawns on Tal'Darim is going to favor Zerg every game on that map.
I love all the changes! I was a bit worried when I saw WCG using ladder maps in the Korean qualifier, but these changes seem good.
It is sad that they didn't choose to use some of the GSL maps which actually are balanced for all spawns, but this, I think, strikes a balance between familiarity (thanks to ladder) and balance. I'll definitely be using these in the future.
On November 26 2011 11:57 Jedclark wrote: Tal'Darim looks AWFUL, but the rest look pretty good. It'll be cool to watch these maps we're so familiar with be so different.
I don't understand only having cross positions, it makes games less interesting. Having close air, close ground and cross positions make it possible to have different strategies depending on the starting position. It's not like any of the maps had serious problems with other positions enabled, other than close ground for shattered temple. The texturing looks fine except for Tal'Darim.
I really like the altered aesthetics of the maps, but Lost Temple leaves a lot to be desired. I would even argue that the original Shattered Temple looks better than the ESV version. I would recommend you either texture it a little more, or an even better choice would be to use a different texture set, I recommend the desert oasis tile set personally.
We have heard the feedback everyone and will re do Tal'Darim totally and also look to spruce up ST. Orginally these were to be used in WCG Korea and we had all (iirc) 36 hours notice so I admit we could have done better. Will post updates when we have them.
On November 28 2011 07:08 Yaki wrote: lol what is the point of these changes ?
On November 28 2011 08:05 Diamond wrote: We have heard the feedback everyone and will re do Tal'Darim totally and also look to spruce up ST. Orginally these were to be used in WCG Korea and we had all (iirc) 36 hours notice so I admit we could have done better. Will post updates when we have them.
On November 28 2011 07:08 Yaki wrote: lol what is the point of these changes ?
WCG likes to be different.
I'm glad you listen to the community, but I don't think you should have to brake your back for us. You already spoiled us by making retextured maps, and no matter what you do people are going to complain about maps. It's all just a matter of personal taste.
On November 28 2011 08:05 Diamond wrote: We have heard the feedback everyone and will re do Tal'Darim totally and also look to spruce up ST. Orginally these were to be used in WCG Korea and we had all (iirc) 36 hours notice so I admit we could have done better. Will post updates when we have them.
On November 28 2011 07:08 Yaki wrote: lol what is the point of these changes ?
WCG likes to be different.
I'm glad you listen to the community, but I don't think you should have to brake your back for us. You already spoiled us by making retextured maps, and no matter what you do people are going to complain about maps. It's all just a matter of personal taste.
We always aim to make people happy . I also agree with everyone that Tal'Darim needs something new.
It's probably been said, but if it hasn't removing the gold on Shattered Temple is probably one of the dumbest things I've ever seen from non-Blizzard map-making. "Destroy these rocks to take a base with two less mineral patches than a base that is more tucked away and easier to defend." I think. Unless they made it have equal patches to the back, but its still sort of iffy
On November 28 2011 09:21 RoninShogun wrote: It's probably been said, but if it hasn't removing the gold on Shattered Temple is probably one of the dumbest things I've ever seen from non-Blizzard map-making. "Destroy these rocks to take a base with two less mineral patches than a base that is more tucked away and easier to defend." I think. Unless they made it have equal patches to the back, but its still sort of iffy
Thought they were going to say something shocking (in an intelligent way) like "maps recolored so players/casters/refs KNOW when the right or wrong map has been hosted, to avoid issues."
On November 28 2011 11:25 Duka08 wrote: Thought they were going to say something shocking (in an intelligent way) like "maps recolored so players/casters/refs KNOW when the right or wrong map has been hosted, to avoid issues."
Oh well, still interesting =P
That's actually a REALLY unintended but true scenario. There will be no doubt if it's the right version.
Also I looked at ST, aside for the center, the map looks pretty sick in game. We will spruce that up but the overview really does not do it justice.
On November 26 2011 12:37 Plexa wrote: When all spawns are forced cross, you know there is something wrong with the game.
Yes, unfortunately. That is why I make 2 player maps :/ Edit: And do you really need cross positions on tal'darim? Because the close positions are long enough...
I don't really know about other match-ups, but I know that in TvP and TvT especially, if you spawn in "close positions" such that your natural is closer to your opponent than your natural ramp, a smart opponent who sieges up or attacks your natural with Colossi can be extremely difficult to beat (especially since the third is blocked by rocks. I think that of all the maps, Tal'Darim seems to be the one that I don't mind them enforcing spawn positions.
At the same time, I think that enforcing spawns on Metalopolis, Shattered Temple, and Shakuras Plateau is pointless. Close air positions may favor a certain race, but so do cross spawns. I've heard Zergs complain about close air positions in TvZ on Metalopolis or Shakuras, but I have troubles winning cross positions as a Terran player as well. It seems pointless to enforce those positions and will make every single TvT proxy Marauder rushes.
On November 28 2011 11:25 Duka08 wrote: Thought they were going to say something shocking (in an intelligent way) like "maps recolored so players/casters/refs KNOW when the right or wrong map has been hosted, to avoid issues."
Oh well, still interesting =P
That's actually a REALLY unintended but true scenario. There will be no doubt if it's the right version.
Also I looked at ST, aside for the center, the map looks pretty sick in game. We will spruce that up but the overview really does not do it justice.
Personally I think it looks pretty interesting. The problem is just the fact that Shattered Temple is a boring map. Lost Temple had too many abusable, gimmicky terrain features, then they made Shattered Temple which was completely and entirely void of them.
Also, just as a note to the map makers, I personally really like the new textures. I really enjoy watching something fresh--it's what makes Brood War great (along with a lot of other things). It's not really new maps, but it will be a pleasant change.
On November 28 2011 09:21 RoninShogun wrote: It's probably been said, but if it hasn't removing the gold on Shattered Temple is probably one of the dumbest things I've ever seen from non-Blizzard map-making. "Destroy these rocks to take a base with two less mineral patches than a base that is more tucked away and easier to defend." I think. Unless they made it have equal patches to the back, but its still sort of iffy
its an extra base, no matter the mineral patches, you'll want more. and the gas is important as well
On November 29 2011 03:54 Welmu wrote: No cloaked versions online?
We never do cloaked versions. It only makes the already horrible map fragmentation more awful.
On November 29 2011 07:39 Andreas wrote: OK, I've got a complaint that's not about cross positions or aesthetics. Why do some of the maps only have 2 spectator slots?
It's a bug, it's been passed along and is being looked into.
The gameplay modifications are debatable (I personally don't like them, but I'm not paid to play this game, so whatever). However, those paint jobs ? Seriously ? I'm going to self-moderate because I'm tired and say that I disapprove of them.
The modifications for actual gameplay are most of the time quite insignificant. The aesthetic changes I simply don't understand. Why? Also, if you do changes like that, you should change the name of the maps as well because they are actually related to how the map looks like.
meta is a horrible map.... when will this map be over with
This is so cheap. I know it's kind of a thing right now to say Metalopolis is a horrible map, but at least back it up!
I agree, personally, that Metalopolis really doesn't suit my play style but that doesn't make it a generally bad map.
Why isn't it a bad map? at least back it up!
Personally I think the map is too simple with the mere two laneways between bases or one if close by air, and there isn't much room for exploiting the terrain especially in close by air because of how simple it is. There aren't any tactical positions to hold apart from the obvious gold, and you can essentially just walk straight to your opponent's base without needing to navigate at all through the terrain or be weary of flanks or sorrounds like on Tal'Darim for instance. Overall it's just not an interesting map, it even has the bland grey colours to it that add to the monotony, and this is all compounded by the fact that it's played so damn much that you want to gouge your eyes out every time you see it in another tournament. It's no wonder GSL removed it from their map pool this season and Blizzard wanted to remove it some seasons ago.
On November 26 2011 12:37 Plexa wrote: When all spawns are forced cross, you know there is something wrong with the game.
QFT
Anyway I guess the only changes will be looking at a different landscape. They could have saved themselves a lot of time not doing this cuz it's not like any1 really cares.
On November 26 2011 12:37 Plexa wrote: When all spawns are forced cross, you know there is something wrong with the game.
QFT
Anyway I guess the only changes will be looking at a different landscape. They could have saved themselves a lot of time not doing this cuz it's not like any1 really cares.
People care and these maps will be played two more years now cos it's so cool and fresh!!
It's good that you brighten up some maps with better textures and day time but please don't make maps even more darker by using that crappy lava texture, it's so ugly and really really dark.
On November 26 2011 12:37 Plexa wrote: When all spawns are forced cross, you know there is something right with the game.
FYP
I don't like randomness in my Starcraft. I would will be happy the day that every map forces cross spawns. But I have to say I don't like the re texturing.. To be honest, I find it kind of silly. I'd rather see actual new maps.
Why are those maps always cross spawn enforced? Maybe i dont know much about starcraft 2 but i thought it comes with the maps and everything to have to adapt to each situation....
The problem isn't that metalopolis is a bad map per se (it has survived this long for good reasons).
You see, that's the real problem: it has survived this long. Maps should not survive that long; they should be replaced. A map's high-end competition life should be hard capped at 1 year IMO (many people would say 3-6 months). If you count the beta time of Metalopolis, we're coming up on 2 years pretty quickly. KILL METALOPOLIS!
On December 04 2011 18:48 amd098 wrote: hmm so gold bases are being phased out by tournaments even more now
Yeah, they are rather problematic balancewise, but I wish they would still be around on a few maps. Really, it is an interesting dynamic and should still exist one in awhile, but I think overall they are not needed.
What I like is how everyone once in awhile I saw a custom map with certain expos having a mix of gold and regular. I think that needs to be played with more.
Coming from the youtube changes thread to this one makes me laugh, so many people not liking change. I personally love that you've reskinned the maps. It'll make these passed-their-sell-by-date maps a bit more interesting at least.
Also, good initiative taking out golds, was one of GOM's better decisions they have made and you should be applauded for continuing this.
I feel like we need to make some kind of map petition going though because there will logically be a huge demand for new maps in both competitive play and on ladder. Time will tell
I'm not into the forced cross position, but I like this idea.
As for the map pool, I think that WCG couldn't have done otherwise: it's the grand finals, they couldn't choose other than the classic maps since pros shouldn't be forced to adapt to new maps in a short amount of time. But, excluding the fact that the maps aren't... "new"... it's a good step for the mapmaking comunity and the tournament as well: viewers can find the old maps more refreshing due to the new look and players will be comfortable since the map layout it's the same.
Also it's a good chance to mapmakers to get more deserved recognition: today it's just ESV Metalopolis, but tomorrow it could be ESV NewOriginalMap! One step at the time, I hope that in the future we will get new solid maps.
I'd like to hear the mapmakers' opinion about this! How does it feel to remake a blizzard map when you believe that you could make a better job with a new map of yours, instead? At the same time do you get motivated to improve them graphically?
It's a real shame that there are so few chances to test new maps on real tournaments, but at the same time unless they are througly played people will always feel that they lack balance. Also, a question: beside Map of the Month are there other tournaments that implement the most recent works? I seriously wish you the best, mapmakers!
On November 26 2011 11:53 Goldbullet wrote: cross positions only on every map now that something different. More zerg minded maps when having cross positions and no gold bases..
except antiga, which is a pretty good turtle terran turtle toss map.
On November 26 2011 11:27 TehTemplar wrote: These changes are pretty dumb tbh. They might as well rename Shakuras Plateau to Mar Sara Plateau and Tal'Darim Altar to Garm Brood Altar or something. Also, I'm not sure why they removed the gold bases in all the maps. They're gold bases for a reason...
I like the balance changes for the maps. The tilesets just confuses me. I'd like to see the high yield bases stay in one form or another since they bring an interesting dynamic, but as it they favor Terrans, would probably need to add a highyield gas if they wanted it to be as rewarding for Zerg or Protoss to take a high yield base.
Nice maps, encouraging macro play and hence a greater likelihood of the better players winning. Equally i believe it is also good for the overall viewer experience. I would, however, have liked to see daybreak instead of meta. As for the tileset i guess it spices things up a bit and gives the sensation that WCG is more special than usual tournaments.
Seems pretty OP how it will be forced cross on shattered + metal + TDA in TvZ... I mean seriously especially on metalopolis zerg will win just about every time providing they are relatively the same skill level -.-
On November 26 2011 13:25 Destructicon wrote: I don't quite agree with the re-texturing of old maps, in particular I downright hate the new Tal'Darim and Shakuras. Tal'Darim just looks bad and Shakuras had its own unique fibe due to the lighting and the shakuras tileset. Also Shattered Temple middle looks extremely boring visually.
However what I disagree with the most is with forcing cross spawns on every map. I can understand it being necessary on say 4 spawn rotational maps, since the nature of them means one side might have a slight edge due to how the rotation works. However on maps like Metal, Shakuras and Shattered there is no reason to remove close by air.
Close by air encourages some more different approaches to the game and involves different strategies and tactics, drop play and air harass is more popular which can also lead to more diverse games. Its also interesting to see how players adapt their strategies to close by air or cross spawn maps.
By forcing cross spawn you're basically cutting out tons of fun and potentially spectacular strategies and plays. Cloaked banshee play, early drop play, stargate pressure etc
I really wish we'd let the meta-game play out more before committing to such rash action.
I don't necessarily dislike the re-texturing except for Tald'Darim being too drastic, but otherwise I completely agree with this post. Forcing cross spawns on maps that aren't rotational 4 player maps takes out alot of gameplay elements and will really cause a lower amount of exciting matches. This is not what the spectators want to see.
Cross spawns on Tal'Darim or Antiga is fine, but not necessary.
I think the only reason they changed the tileset was to make the map easier to see for the audience seeing how Shakuras, Antiga and Metal were quite dark maps but when I saw TDA it freakin just blew my logic out of my head.
Till this day, I still don't see any hint of logic behind 'only cross positions' or 'no close positions'. If that's the case, why the hell are we making 4 player maps in the first place?
maps looks awesome but tileset is a big change for some players I think. All your sim city might get messed up. Can't believe they announce 5 maps 2 weeks before the tournament. Horrible And what the fuck, how can Char (Volcanic) be on one of the maps, it's so dark, doubt we will be able to see anything on the stream. At least that's the reason why I didn't play that map last patch^^
On December 08 2011 11:00 SaSe wrote: maps looks awesome but tileset is a big change for some players I think. All your sim city might get messed up. Can't believe they announce 5 maps 2 weeks before the tournament. Horrible And what the fuck, how can Char (Volcanic) be on one of the maps, it's so dark, doubt we will be able to see anything on the stream. At least that's the reason why I didn't play that map last patch^^
Yeah we had them done I think like 4 weeks out but WCG wanted to wait to announce it, sorry about that but it's out of our hands.
The good news is I watched yesterday on the Stone Age quality WCG stream and could sitll make everything out on Tal'Darim and no one was misplacing buildings .
The images in the OP threw me off when I first saw them, thinking that they'd look really bad in game. However now that I've seen them on the WCG stream I must say that they are a really nice way of keeping the map pool "fresh" even if the maps themselves haven't changed. Aesthetics goes a long way.
In retrospect as a player I absolutely loved the new tileset on Shakuras and Metalopolis. Especially the brighter Shakuras was very good to play on. The changes on Tal'darim negatively affected my gameplay seeing as it was very dark. I hope lava tilesets will not be used for pro tournaments in the future. In general, the brighter tileset and lighting, the better it feels as a player. Might just be me though. Cross positions was okay, too! Cheers
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