EPT[D] Regarding PvP, 4gate, Ramps
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a176
Canada6688 Posts
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Poo
Canada536 Posts
edit: i also think this is probably a sc2 strategy post.. it's in the wrong section? :/ | ||
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funcmode
Australia720 Posts
What's more retarded is, Tal'Darim only uses 2 cliff levels. So technically they could increase the height of the main by one cliff level, with a standard main/natural ramp setup, and fix everything in about 10 minutes. | ||
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a176
Canada6688 Posts
I'm thinking regarding the recent games in MLG where warpgate rushes were common even in the other maps, so I didnt quite get what they were saying. The little choke from the main to nat, thats what mappers use to mimic the structure of the ramp, minus the vision aspect of course. As then, you're looking at blink rushes, but blink rushes is still standard fare on other map as well; it just boils down to timing of the push (obs or wait for sentry energy)? So is it really a problem with the map or just PvP is still dumb as fuck? | ||
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Mereel
Germany895 Posts
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funcmode
Australia720 Posts
Expecting Blizzard to do something to make same height main/naturals to work is also idiotic. 4gate is still viable (why we see it elsewhere still) but isn't an instant win like it is on Tal'Darim (vs a non 4gate). Essentially what it boils down to is, Blizzard decided to fix the 4gate by making it easier to defend with a small ramp. On maps without small ramp entrances, 4gate reigns supreme for the reasons I stated in my earlier post. Yes, it's a bad fix, most notably here because it effectively forces mapmakers to use a standard main/nat ramp setup unless they're happy with PvP being retarded on their map. Blizzard will absolutely not make additional changes to the game just to give mapmakers an additional option for map creativity, that's simply not going to happen. I would expect PvP to stay as it is right now balance-wise until HotS. So, don't make ramps with same height main/natural. Just don't. On October 20 2011 00:49 Mereel wrote: its a matchup problem and not a mapproblem. blizzard has to come up with something not we. This is absolutely the wrong mentality to have. | ||
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Complete
United States1864 Posts
Also, keep in mind that it's not just a matter of decreasing the choke between the nat and main on tal'darim. It needs to be a ramp too because that's an important aspect of holding a 4gate. | ||
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HaXXspetten
Sweden15718 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On October 20 2011 01:04 HaXXspetten wrote: Essentially, since there is no ramp you can't force field out an opposing 4gate. Thus, you pretty much just die if you do anything else than 4gate yourself. It is possible to DT-rush blindly on Tal'Darim since you know your opponent will be 4gating and won't have detection. You will barely get a Dark Shrine up in time though, so you will get into a weird baserace situation, which isn't a guaranteed win. Overall, it's always safest to just 4gate yourself and rely on superior micro. (If you have it that is. Otherwise... well, sucks to be you )I think the fastest dt's you could possibly ever get pop at like 6.45; the first weave of 4stalkers with a 20 probe 4gate is at 5.35 ish. So i'm actually pretty sure you can't actually blind dt rush and be safe vs a 4gate without the first few units doing so much damage to your own base, possibly even sniping the shrine before it completes. On topic: yeah i agree with what's been said. It's not so much about the shape of the nat, but of the ramp leading to the main: if it can't be blocked by one forcefield, you MUST 4gate or you will die if your opponent doesn't fuck up spectacularly (or does something silly like mass cannons). It used to be like that on scrap station too, and yeah i agree it would only take a simple design change to make bel'shir and tal'darim not completely idiotic in pvp, i have no idea why it has never been done before. | ||
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AGIANTSMURF
United States1232 Posts
so if they do a harcore super fast 4 gate, there is no build that has enough units to defend since 4 gate is the optimal rush build and you cant use sentries to stall for time | ||
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StatX
Canada343 Posts
The choke between the main and the natural is a little larger than a normal choke youd find on maps like xel naga. This means you need more sentries or to block with buildings which can be sniped by stalkers. Also, the fact that the choke is not a ramp means the person on the offense has complete vision meaning you can warp in units on the other side of the FF or blink past it, thus negating the defense you could have put up using sentries. The only thing you can do is going for a 4 gates in case your opponent 4 gates. Scouting does play a major role on this map but its so big you have to be lucky. | ||
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Meltage
Germany613 Posts
As Mereel pointed out, it's just 2 maps in map pools or so that forces PvP to 4gate and thus not an issue, just a feature. I don't think it creates good games to limit they way a certain race plays (not that much, at least). What if you simply made the main choke longer/smaller, or put a neutral pylon into it? I can't just accept that there is no variety possible to main-nat ramp. Making in-base nats (i.e. having nats with 1x ramps) doesnt seem a very good option, but one that is possible. | ||
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funcmode
Australia720 Posts
What does having a same-level main/natural actually contribute to justify doing it in the first place? This is a strategy game, and having maps that forces players to use a particular strategy is ridiculous. For spectators, knowing exactly what's going to happen in a game before it's even loaded is a very bad thing. Yes, it's a shame Blizzard decided to balance PvP around the ramp mechanic but they have, and here we are. Why should we gimp maps (even in just one of 6 matchups) for the sake of something being different, without really adding anything in either of the other matchups. This whole discussion is in my opinion completely stupid, if you want to make a good map, don't have a same-level main/natural, at least with the game as it is right now. I don't see how you can argue about this. | ||
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FlopTurnReaver
Switzerland1980 Posts
If you really want to help the cause try to find a setup that deals with the problem, like making the choke tight enough for 1 FF at one point, make it unbuildable there so you still need the same amount of buildings to wall off and do something with LoSB to prevent warp ins behind the choke. | ||
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Comprissent
United States314 Posts
On October 20 2011 00:44 a176 wrote: So is it really a problem with the map or just PvP is still dumb as fuck? It's just a MU problem. Tal'darim is an extremely fun map to play PvT/Z on, as the map is very large and expansion-friendly. The only solution to a 4g is a ramp + forcefield(or defensive 4g), which all maps have (minus tal'darim ofc), which makes the matchup broken for this particular map | ||
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StatX
Canada343 Posts
Hopefully, they will remove the crappy small maps everyone vetoes and changes the map pool around to more balanced maps that dont make PvP sad!  | ||
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Callynn
Netherlands917 Posts
As maps get larger and people attempt funky stuff, it's also not a bad thing though, because experimenting with new maps opens up possibilities to attempt new tactics that might miraculasly also work on classic, timeless maps. So don't let popular builds from tournaments be your guide when mapping, instead think out what you could make work on your map with your main race and ask for feedback (with a lot of tests after) on how other races could exploit specific parts of your map, making it overall balanced for all, but tactically imbalanced locally for some or even one race (or even one build). | ||
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monitor
United States2408 Posts
That being said, I actually don't mind flat main chokes if there is highground at the natural. There are enough viable strategies that make are interesting and balanced, like the immortal expand which is becoming increasingly popular. | ||
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Callynn
Netherlands917 Posts
On October 20 2011 07:09 monitor wrote: Having no ramp means you can't force-field to block all aggression. A lot of early game PvP strategies rely on force fielding the ramp to delay an attack. Additionally, without a ramp, there is literally zero defenders advantage which completely ruins the match-up. A normal choke can do the same, the defender's advantage being that he starts closer to his own choke than the enemy does, allowing him to wall it off or force-field it just as he would a ramp. Sure, there is no high-ground advantage, but for FF that does not really matter and neither does it for walls. If it's blocked, it's blocked. | ||
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monitor
United States2408 Posts
On October 20 2011 07:22 Callynn wrote: A normal choke can do the same, the defender's advantage being that he starts closer to his own choke than the enemy does, Actually because of the warp-in mechanic, the reinforce distances are pretty much the same. Unfortunate, but true. allowing him to wall it off or force-field it just as he would a ramp. The flat choke actually takes 2 forcefields, and that makes all the difference early game. Sure, there is no high-ground advantage, but for FF that does not really matter and neither does it for walls. If it's blocked, it's blocked. The flat choke is not bloked because blink stalkers can blink over flatground forcefields (not to mention over the gap between the third and main), while they can't on a map like Shakuras. | ||
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Anomek
Poland152 Posts
On October 20 2011 03:26 StatX wrote: I think BelShir Beach also shares this problem but its not in the map pool at this time. Hopefully, they will remove the crappy small maps everyone vetoes and changes the map pool around to more balanced maps that dont make PvP sad! Actually some former version of Bel'Shir Beach had ramp above 1-forcefield-wide choke and it was impossible to 4-gate there. So there are means to prevent 4-gate without standard ramp. But they removed ramp recently, I guess it affected other match ups too much. | ||
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Ruscour
5233 Posts
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
Any map without a main ramp is bad for PvP, end of story. This has been repeated a whole lot in this thread. It's basically the public consensus. It also bears repeating at progamer powwows, apparently. Who exactly has the credentials to be saying this authoritatively? Not the people in this thread so far. Not the public. Potentially the pros. But it's not like they have some formula that proves their view. That's just their perception so far. I don't think anyone can seriously say we've explored the possibilities from the latest patch already. I think a176 as a non-protoss mapper got his OP question answered, so that's good. It'll be useful for basic considerations for mapping. All the subsequent blustering is misplaced. If you guys don't play PvP at a high level, it's useless for you to make statements about it. If you don't know why you don't have a main ramp, put one in. If you have a good reason, I think it's a valid choice for maps right now. "Forced" 4gate is a special case of a single mirror build (which isn't even necessarily true) being required. Guess what: every matchup on every map has required builds--there's just usually more than 1. There isn't some sacred tenet that says an RTS must have multiple opening strategies. That's just a commonality of design, and most people consider it desirable. If a certain subset of maps promotes a certain subset of strategy in a certain subset of matchups, how is that categorically wrong? Moreover, what's wrong with 4gate wars? There's a lot that goes into every 4gate war, and I personally have enjoyed watching high level PvP at all stages of SC2. It might not be interesting to every spectator. But neither is ZvZ in BW. At this point in the game, the play is hardly refined enough to say that any given map feature is forever and always imbalanced or creates zero-choice gameplay. I could go on about this but I think I've made my point. If anyone wants to discuss PvP and the 6square-no-ramp main choke, feel free to goad me on. [edit] typos | ||
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talontromper
United States258 Posts
In addition to this peice of code add a timer with a count down of like 10 ((for offensive pylons) (just throwing that number out it wouldn't have to be 10 at all. just for example sake)) minutes so you can make offensive pylons around the map for harass, counter attack etc. Its not that warp gate is a bad technology the way they decided to fix the problem was only a band-aid not a complete healing of the bludgeoning that is 4g on TDA. This is also not hard to implement, a little bit of coding and then its taken care of. PS: This would only be for PvP the other races the timer would not apply, only the match up that is 4g wars | ||
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Talic_Zealot
688 Posts
Also if you put yourself in the shoes of a developer at Blizzard or a map creator, it is a tremendously complex problem. I really hope that they find a way to tweak and rearrange something about the Protoss race without fundamentally braking the game or destroying the metagame, which poses different issues. P.S. Of course this particular map wouldn't play out so differently if the main was 1 level above the natural, but that is not my point. The problem I see is that despite that PvP4gate is a big problem, the solution presented creates an even bigger constriction on possible map content. | ||
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Callynn
Netherlands917 Posts
On October 20 2011 07:33 monitor wrote: Actually because of the warp-in mechanic, the reinforce distances are pretty much the same. Unfortunate, but true. The flat choke actually takes 2 forcefields, and that makes all the difference early game. The flat choke is not bloked because blink stalkers can blink over flatground forcefields (not to mention over the gap between the third and main), while they can't on a map like Shakuras. Because warp-in and blink stalker are rush tactics? I'm not following your poor sense of time. These are by no means arguments that undermine what I said. Rush distance doesn't mean the enemy has speedlings, warp-ins, blinks and medivac drops, that's called midgame. And by that time, there are observers, scans and overseers to give sight up the ramp, which makes it the same as high ground. | ||
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Glexarn
United States40 Posts
On October 22 2011 00:55 Callynn wrote: Because warp-in and blink stalker are rush tactics? I'm not following your poor sense of time. Yes. There's a reason it's called the 4 warpgate rush, not the 4 warpgate expand or 4 warpgate happy time. His sense of time isn't poor at all. Maybe you've never seen a 4 gate that warps in before 6 minutes? These are by no means arguments that undermine what I said. Rush distance doesn't mean the enemy has speedlings, warp-ins, blinks and medivac drops, that's called midgame. And by that time, there are observers, scans and overseers to give sight up the ramp, which makes it the same as high ground. It's as if you ignored everything he said. Speedlings are irrelevant. This is about PvP. Medivac drops are irrelevant. This is about PvP. Scans are irrelevant. This is about PvP. Overseers are irrelevant. This is about PvP. Observers rely on having gone robo tech at some point. This slows down any Warpgate rushes by a time great enough that the enemy Protoss can defend it. On October 20 2011 07:09 monitor wrote: Actually because of the warp-in mechanic, the reinforce distances are pretty much the same. Unfortunate, but true. This is what monitor actually said about rush distances, and it's indisputably true. A proxy Pylon either just behind or on his army means that his warp-in reinforcement distance is identical to yours, and therefore there is no defender's advantage if there is no ramp. | ||
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SChlafmann
France725 Posts
In PvP you have to 4g on this map...well, that's fine. It is just one map, and 4g vs 4g is not such a big deal. It is good to still have some. And btw no one was complaining about ZvZ in BW where on every map only one tactic was available : lings into mutas. | ||
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Callynn
Netherlands917 Posts
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