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On October 20 2011 03:26 StatX wrote:I think BelShir Beach also shares this problem but its not in the map pool at this time. Hopefully, they will remove the crappy small maps everyone vetoes and changes the map pool around to more balanced maps that dont make PvP sad! 
Actually some former version of Bel'Shir Beach had ramp above 1-forcefield-wide choke and it was impossible to 4-gate there. So there are means to prevent 4-gate without standard ramp. But they removed ramp recently, I guess it affected other match ups too much.
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It's a MU problem that mapmakers need to acknowledge. Making a terrible map for PvP blaming it on Blizzard defeats the purpose of balancing any map, no? Any map without a main ramp is bad for PvP, end of story.
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Any map without a main ramp is bad for PvP, end of story.
This has been repeated a whole lot in this thread. It's basically the public consensus. It also bears repeating at progamer powwows, apparently.
Who exactly has the credentials to be saying this authoritatively? Not the people in this thread so far. Not the public. Potentially the pros. But it's not like they have some formula that proves their view. That's just their perception so far. I don't think anyone can seriously say we've explored the possibilities from the latest patch already.
I think a176 as a non-protoss mapper got his OP question answered, so that's good. It'll be useful for basic considerations for mapping. All the subsequent blustering is misplaced. If you guys don't play PvP at a high level, it's useless for you to make statements about it.
If you don't know why you don't have a main ramp, put one in. If you have a good reason, I think it's a valid choice for maps right now. "Forced" 4gate is a special case of a single mirror build (which isn't even necessarily true) being required. Guess what: every matchup on every map has required builds--there's just usually more than 1. There isn't some sacred tenet that says an RTS must have multiple opening strategies. That's just a commonality of design, and most people consider it desirable. If a certain subset of maps promotes a certain subset of strategy in a certain subset of matchups, how is that categorically wrong?
Moreover, what's wrong with 4gate wars? There's a lot that goes into every 4gate war, and I personally have enjoyed watching high level PvP at all stages of SC2. It might not be interesting to every spectator. But neither is ZvZ in BW.
At this point in the game, the play is hardly refined enough to say that any given map feature is forever and always imbalanced or creates zero-choice gameplay.
I could go on about this but I think I've made my point. If anyone wants to discuss PvP and the 6square-no-ramp main choke, feel free to goad me on.
[edit] typos
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IMHO i think that they should add a metric that makes it so that pylons have to be in "X" distance of a friendly nexus to be able to be warped in on, this REMOVES all use of the 4gate until you have a WP with your army. This could be as far as the natural of a map or as far as the third, just NO WHERE near close enough for offensive 4 gate.
In addition to this peice of code add a timer with a count down of like 10 ((for offensive pylons) (just throwing that number out it wouldn't have to be 10 at all. just for example sake)) minutes so you can make offensive pylons around the map for harass, counter attack etc.
Its not that warp gate is a bad technology the way they decided to fix the problem was only a band-aid not a complete healing of the bludgeoning that is 4g on TDA. This is also not hard to implement, a little bit of coding and then its taken care of.
PS: This would only be for PvP the other races the timer would not apply, only the match up that is 4g wars
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This topic disturbs me greatly as Tal'Darim is my favorite map, but it seems that the lack of main>nat ramp makes it unsuitable for sc2. It seems like any map without one would be viewed as inherently flawed. This all comes down I think to a fundamental problem with the Warp Gate mechanic, which was brought up in another thread >The Warp Mechanic and How It Broke Protoss<
Also if you put yourself in the shoes of a developer at Blizzard or a map creator, it is a tremendously complex problem. I really hope that they find a way to tweak and rearrange something about the Protoss race without fundamentally braking the game or destroying the metagame, which poses different issues.
P.S.
Of course this particular map wouldn't play out so differently if the main was 1 level above the natural, but that is not my point. The problem I see is that despite that PvP4gate is a big problem, the solution presented creates an even bigger constriction on possible map content.
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On October 20 2011 07:33 monitor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 07:22 Callynn wrote:On October 20 2011 07:09 monitor wrote:
Having no ramp means you can't force-field to block all aggression. A lot of early game PvP strategies rely on force fielding the ramp to delay an attack. Additionally, without a ramp, there is literally zero defenders advantage which completely ruins the match-up. A normal choke can do the same, the defender's advantage being that he starts closer to his own choke than the enemy does, Actually because of the warp-in mechanic, the reinforce distances are pretty much the same. Unfortunate, but true. The flat choke actually takes 2 forcefields, and that makes all the difference early game. Show nested quote +Sure, there is no high-ground advantage, but for FF that does not really matter and neither does it for walls. If it's blocked, it's blocked. The flat choke is not bloked because blink stalkers can blink over flatground forcefields (not to mention over the gap between the third and main), while they can't on a map like Shakuras.
Because warp-in and blink stalker are rush tactics? I'm not following your poor sense of time. These are by no means arguments that undermine what I said. Rush distance doesn't mean the enemy has speedlings, warp-ins, blinks and medivac drops, that's called midgame. And by that time, there are observers, scans and overseers to give sight up the ramp, which makes it the same as high ground.
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On October 22 2011 00:55 Callynn wrote:
Because warp-in and blink stalker are rush tactics? I'm not following your poor sense of time.
Yes. There's a reason it's called the 4 warpgate rush, not the 4 warpgate expand or 4 warpgate happy time.
His sense of time isn't poor at all. Maybe you've never seen a 4 gate that warps in before 6 minutes?
These are by no means arguments that undermine what I said. Rush distance doesn't mean the enemy has speedlings, warp-ins, blinks and medivac drops, that's called midgame. And by that time, there are observers, scans and overseers to give sight up the ramp, which makes it the same as high ground.
It's as if you ignored everything he said.
Speedlings are irrelevant. This is about PvP.
Medivac drops are irrelevant. This is about PvP.
Scans are irrelevant. This is about PvP.
Overseers are irrelevant. This is about PvP.
Observers rely on having gone robo tech at some point. This slows down any Warpgate rushes by a time great enough that the enemy Protoss can defend it.
On October 20 2011 07:09 monitor wrote:
Actually because of the warp-in mechanic, the reinforce distances are pretty much the same. Unfortunate, but true.
This is what monitor actually said about rush distances, and it's indisputably true. A proxy Pylon either just behind or on his army means that his warp-in reinforcement distance is identical to yours, and therefore there is no defender's advantage if there is no ramp.
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I don't get the problem there.
In PvP you have to 4g on this map...well, that's fine. It is just one map, and 4g vs 4g is not such a big deal.
It is good to still have some. And btw no one was complaining about ZvZ in BW where on every map only one tactic was available : lings into mutas.
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@ Glexarn: Pity he was talking about his natural, not his main. You are missing the point. If the natural had a ramp which can be blocked by 1 sentry, why on earth would anyone not fast expand in PvP? So the fact remains that a choked same level expansion should be and is decent, even in PvP.
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EPT
