On February 15 2012 15:09 RumbleBadger wrote:
Just realized something interesting about this map... four bases is easier to defend than three. Allow me to explain:
-snip-

Doesn't really take into account more ground to cover against drops etc, but yeah I can see how that works.
Just remember that the 4 base "defensive positions" are further away, so reinforcements will arrive later negating much of the defensive advantage.

Randomaccount#77123

United States5003 Posts

February 15 2012 14:21 GMT

#64

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wrl

United States209 Posts

February 15 2012 17:04 GMT

#65

I think this goes a little bit far to the extreme though (Also, didn't you tell me a long while back that bases protecting bases = a bad thing? :-P) Anyway I think the fourth base is a problem. In general its far too easy to protect four basess and comparatively much more difficult to hold 3 or 5.

The real issue I observed playing on this map on ladder was that its extremely easy to turtle mid to late game, but I'm not sure there are enough bases to take advantage of the map control you get against a turtling player.

That said its a breath of fresh air on the ladder, and is more fun than Blizzard's previous offerings.

Aeceus

United Kingdom1278 Posts

February 15 2012 20:51 GMT

#66

how do you even win ZvT on this map? seems hard... any advice?

Timetwister22

United States538 Posts

February 15 2012 21:08 GMT

#67

Keep map control, and maintain control of the high ground above your third. I don't exactly play zerg, but I assume that means spread creep there and position your army in such a way you can easily defend or retake that area. Hell, you could even burrow banelings up there if you know its a go-to place for the terran army.

wrl

United States209 Posts

February 15 2012 21:08 GMT

#68

On February 16 2012 05:51 Aeceus wrote:
how do you even win ZvT on this map? seems hard... any advice?

Have to drag it in to the late late late game and keep the terran contained to 4 bases, taking the other 6 yourself. Feed it into broodlords and find an opening to attack into. There is one deadspot behind the fourth you can use to morph in some broods and another outside the main.

Green Sun s Zenith

Canada85 Posts

February 16 2012 22:02 GMT

#69

TolEranceNA just use mutas hahaha . I just wanted to comment on a great map, it will definitely bring some interesting and exciting games.

RumbleBadger

322 Posts

February 17 2012 01:36 GMT

#70

Yeah, so I overstated that holding four bases is easier than three... but you have to admit that it's not much harder. If you have any semblance of map control (ie. army by the watchtower) then you can probably hold four pretty darn easily.

But like others have said, I didn't account for air coverage or anything.

Now is this a bad thing? Again, I can't say for sure... but as a zerg player I'd probably go for a fairly standard lair tech off two bases (pretty fast tier 2) and then expand off that tech. But instead of just taking a third, I'd probably try to take a third and then a fourth like right after that.

Randomaccount#77123

United States5003 Posts

February 18 2012 04:47 GMT

#71

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SoapSC

Netherlands112 Posts

February 20 2012 19:13 GMT

#72

I think i found a minor bug on this map.

There is a small gap between the outer mineral and the gas that seems to be open, but actually you cant move any unit trough it.

It doesnt works with zealots or workers, maybe a zergling would fit trough i havent tested that yet. [image loading]

I didn't found it thread worthy so i just searched for the thread of the map.

EDIT: After further testing it out it seems that the movement only gets blocked if you make a gas and zerglings cant move trough it either.

darkscream

Canada2310 Posts

February 20 2012 20:32 GMT

#73

As far as taking the third in ZvT, it seems to be the 4queen late gas style is the way to go. Lets you brush off the threat of hellions/reapers on your 2base, and gives you serious creep spread - you must spread creep above and below the ledge of the 3rd in order to take it safely. I like making a macro hatchery before the third, really, just for the production. A strategy like Destiny's standard 2base infestor/ling into double expand at your 3rd and 4th works quite well.

ZVP: the main is pretty big. Do what looks standard (14p 16h) but sneak a drone in their main and proxy hatch(instead of quick 3rd).... proxy roaches before warpgate timing >_>

DeltruS

Canada2214 Posts

February 20 2012 21:00 GMT

#74

I had thought the middle of this map would be a no-mans land due to the low ground. In reality, going across the sides instead of the middle makes the aggressor more susceptible to counterattacks. This dynamic is what really makes the map for me :D.

hillman

United States162 Posts

February 20 2012 21:04 GMT

#75

I really like this map for overlord placement...very nice places to get scouting as a zerg. Wonderful map, I really like this when it comes up on ladder.

EatThePath

United States3943 Posts

February 20 2012 21:18 GMT

#76

On February 21 2012 04:13 SoapSC wrote:
I think i found a minor bug on this map.

+ Show Spoiler +

There is a small gap between the outer mineral and the gas that seems to be open, but actually you cant move any unit trough it.

It doesnt works with zealots or workers, maybe a zergling would fit trough i havent tested that yet. [image loading]

That's just how adjacent resources work, and the footprint of the geyser is different than the footprint of the various gas buildings. Corner to corner resources are different than corner to corner buildings in that they don't allow enough space for units to pass. It looks like otherwise sometimes. Not a bug just how the game is.

GTPGlitch

5061 Posts

February 21 2012 03:16 GMT

#77

I will agree with it being really easy to go from 3->4

Heck, as a T I just throw a planetary and some turrets/a sensor tower down near the fourth (planetary goes next to the choke, but not where a normal CC would go) while I take my third. Much easier to defend from that position than having to actively defend from low ground.

This map is a ton of fun in any case~TvT is especially enjoyable :3

kcdc

United States2311 Posts

March 15 2012 00:27 GMT

#78

Couple thoughts:

For reference, I'm high Masters P, and all my experiences with this map have come on NA ladder against top 10 Masters to top GM.

The #1 issue with the map, from a Protoss perspective, is that there's no good way to take a third base against speed roaches. Protoss can position his army at the 2nd or the third, leaving the other undefended, or he can position his army between the two exposing himself to a massive surround with his back up against that outcropping of trees with no space to micro.

This could be fixed a few different ways.

-close off 1 of the two paths between the natural and the tower to create a single entrance into the where P wants to position his army. This solves the flank problem and gives P lanes to micro back from an attack. This leaves no open space in front of the natural, however, so it's not my preferred solution.

-Looking at the top half of the map, you could move the ramp from the natural to the third a bit to the left to lengthen the distance an attacker must travel to bounce between the natural and the third. Then give the defender a more direct path with a backdoor entrance to the natural from the third. Bock this path with a destructible rock to keep FFE viable. You might also shift the position of the mineral line slightly further left so that the defensive distance isn't too short. This keeps the base at the third exposed with 2 attack paths for the Z, but P doesn't have to march his army through a kill zone in order to attempt to defend.

The second problem I've found is that there's not an an open area where you can fight colossi+forcefields with a low tech army. This comes up when you expand in PvP and the other player goes for a 1-base colossus push. Currently, the best place to defend seems to be as the attacker comes up the ramp due south from the top natural, but that position is just a little too small with forcefieldable chokes at the ramp and a short distance north of the ramp between the edge of the main and the tree that splits the attack paths to the natural. If that area were just a tiny bit bigger, it would solve the problem.

I imagine that Terrans and Zergs would also appreciate a slightly larger open area there to defend against forcefields+colossi.

I do love the map for PvT tho. It's my favorite map in the pool for that MU because it produces constant back and forth action with lots of counter-attacking and positional defenses. The watchtowers seem to change hands every other minute.

Areon

United States273 Posts

March 16 2012 07:19 GMT

#79

No offense to the creator of this map, but IMHO Korhal Compound is absolute trash. Advancing through the middle against a competent opponent is suicide, rendering the towers virtually useless as all major engagements will likely occur on the sides of the map. To make matters worse, expanding is pretty awkward in that your third is vulnerable to siege fire and will either easily get sniped or you'll have to fight many battles at that inconvenient location. Everything is just so awkwardly spread out and positioned with high ground cliffs that work against defending your third and attacking through the main making this map painful to play on for me. Thank God for map bans!

skatbone

United States1005 Posts

March 29 2012 04:43 GMT

#80

I've seen a lot of hate toward this map, and while I would like to see monitor's changes implemented, I love playing on it. As a toss who takes fast thirds against Zerg, I always have long macro games and I love the way that attacks occur along the sides. Given the large main, the ease of positioning my army at the Zel Naga, and the distance between the fourth and the main, as toss, I always have opportunities to do multi-pronged warp prism harass late game. SO MUCH FUN!