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[M] Baskerville mele map thread

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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baskerville
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
541 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-23 19:07:56
December 11 2010 03:02 GMT
#1
Current wip:
+ Show Spoiler +

sc3 modmelee
muzic to get in the mood+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owvqfzPjBag . l.

Concept:+ Show Spoiler +
make every single unit i envisioned, evolve into a new melee standard featuring (for the 3 races): sc1/sc2 revamped + original units

My goal is that every build order "routine" remain "similar" to the "cancan" of melee type play, but that you wanna make every unit BECAUSE THEY ARE AWESOME OP UNITS (possibly make you use a hero to boot), giving a good time (20 min game time max for max ffa) is what's aimed at here!

Map u can play on right now: Maelstrom Temple, constantly updated on eu!
+ Show Spoiler +
multiplayer/creategame/type Maelstrom Temple and then scroll down, thank u for playing my map!

Development and changelog:+ Show Spoiler +

Development log:
changes and additions on terrans, zee and toss are being implemented daily

stix addon near from finished being implemented, z and t add ons are pending

still no original models yet, need help! (have no time)
Changelog:
+ Show Spoiler +

Change to terrans
# --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Siege tanks:
200 from an original 150 hp and resource 200/200 from 150/125 gas
size doubled (a bit less)
In siege mode:
armor 3/1, scanner tweak (30 at the start/100max energy)
rockets attack air attack against air units
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bunker :
size 3/1 / cost: 150/120
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Battlecruiser :
size 2/1 / cost doubled! changed to hyperion yamato cannon, upped armor, added a second weapon and Odin+Ghost nuclear strike (with arm magazine on the side) and (still a wip) / should end up carrying units (load/unload/8 only 6 for now)
# --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Addition to the terrans
traded Dominion Marauder for Marauder (Barracks with addon)
added medic (Barracks base)/ Goliath (Machine shop base)/ Wraith (Stargate base with research to get cloak) Science Vessel (Stargate with addon and fusion core)


# --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Add on to terrans
Stix units

Bigblue = the elite ai worker unit (converts into buildings)
Shadowmaster = master caster
Shadow= "mechanical scourge" that attack air and ground (damages everyone)
Legion= stix cowboy infiltration unit
Mecha= bigblue gone arsenal
Stix Knights= endgame units
Destroyer= sith knight interceptors'

Stix Heroes + Show Spoiler +
(no revival): Nemo (ground) / 666(air) / Chaos Bringer (ship) not implemented yet! (trigger happy)

# --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Change to zerg
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Queen: more everything: 600/200 mana 100/30 for start / cost : 90/150 / less regeneration when burrowed, added fungal growth ability when burrowed
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hydralisk morph to lurker available through lurker den on tier 1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

# --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Addition to Zerg
Scourge at half price
# --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Add on to zerg
first one: the Daemon, a veteran mutalisk
# --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Change to protoss
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mothership directly accessible, with more energy and the wander behavior (making it ...wander)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
none yet
# --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Addition to protoss
]Scout reinstated in Stargate
# --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Add on to protoss
none yet


glhf + Show Spoiler +
and pm me, if u like / wish to help out or even participate

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------off topic:+ Show Spoiler +
best heist film ever bestSouthAmericangangstamovie classiczikmob
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Previous maps on second post + Show Spoiler +
(with gameplay/previous responses on bottom of post)
Current responses on my post on page 4
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Galaxy rant:+ Show Spoiler +

___________________________________________________________________________
Start / options going with it
Player properties (map ->pl propt) needs to be set (example: 1v1 requires 2 USER)
Game variants and team settings need to be done in conjunction with your NEW custom dependencies in order to implement pre determined game custom settings.
You need to unlock the default setting and configure every setting accordingly (even if you wish to change just one of them from melee default).

mod or map:

choose mod for configuring something you will end up "linking" as a dependency to 1 map (or multiple maps), like setting up all your "new" units or a custom "gameplay". It is good to classify and test stuff to know if your mod will function with any "default" maps

choose map when designing a map (you can still import settings from prior maps into new ones)
____________________________________________________________________________
Dialog box
There is a dialog box that will appear whenever you are making a status change to your map. It will always display why your map was labeled as custom or other... it appears automatically whenever the status changes. You can also check it in Map Status. Anything might make your map a custom map, that does not foreclose it's ability to be used as a melee map. The greatest example being where to spawn in different locations, it will be a pre set game that will still allow all melee specific in game data to remain functional.
____________________________________________________________________________
About textures
Work the map the way you like it ... gameplay layout blablabla…
Save this sketch version.
Save as a second version, get wild and try out crazy coloring.. while “schematically” coloring stuff to get terrain structures in sync with each other and according to your taste ..
You can replace the textures one tileset at a time, with another. So, in a sense you can mix and match tilesets from different "base" (group of texture regrouped under a single heading) style (and just testing them all out is long as my ... euh.. well it's long). Beware of not doing this right, it wrecks galaxies + Show Spoiler +
(pm me if you get into a jam on this issue, i got out, so.. so will you...)

Just save and then close your galaxy+ Show Spoiler +
(this is always fun to type )
, reopening the map should resolve any display bugs like the miimap not displaying your "changes".
When the map looks awful because you took no care in the precise coloring ( details, order in textures or what not), bin map.

Re open the sketch version.
Resave as to test some more, while trying to color "more into the lines"
(get flashback of your first coloring books).

Rinse and repeat until you feel that you've found the mix for each type of terrain high or low ground, edges ramps unpathable and whatever else you could have thought of... area around mains, xelnaga watch tower areas or any other shite...
In short, don't be afraid to "save as" whenever you get to an interesting stage (just remember to bin all useless versions when you're done).

Finally , resave as for the final version, get your textures in order before anything and then start coloring ..
Remember you can turn the map to color otherwise unreachable sections and all that, start with large brushes and finish with details, … always trying to get all the textures to blend into one another to your advantage.
iGrok mentioned that you can draw the layout with textures before changing the layout (according to said drawing), I find that this is an excellent advice, but due note that usually it’s “easier” to get a final perfect version by building textures and layout from top to bottom (since galaxy will bug frequently while you’re using it to correct manute details (simply save close and relaunch galaxy whenever said overwhelming bugs bug you)
____________________________________________________________________________
blizz grand theft map
Click the "use for all locals" setting when publishing a map originally from blizz
____________________________________________________________________________
Fog
Playing with Black or Grey mask to configure fog gameplay
Map -> Options -> Unexplored Areas -> set your fog data

_____________________________________________________________________________
Showcasing
Edit your map on low graphics settings and showcase pictures on high, ultra just slows thing down with no recognizable improvements, while most player never change their settings (not even to watch replays most of them) from low, since that's the only way to play online and not be called out for lag... This is set in the preference menu, the "test document" function being the one displayed in galaxy. Set to "game settings" or high or whatever your preference goes since it cannot effect the actual way other players will play the map (still "drawing" in low is a must since that's what players favour).

___________________________________________________________________________
Dependencies
file->dependencies
At the start of your new map you have to decide what you wish, among this data are the dependencies, by default it's melee type of access, add or choose "campaign" if you wish to access extra units or other objects... the most sought after usually...
Furthermore this is where you will add your new custom data that you wish to implement in your map for "prior to game start" and also ingame effects...
or a place where
you will suppress prior dependency in order to regain melee status (you must not "harbor" another one "overwriting" the dependency you wish to act as template).The campaign dependency while it grants units and other specific additional content, will have (for instance) a different tech tree... )

_____________________________________________________________________________
Order
The order in which you develop your mod matters because the editor will self duplicate objects needlessly and it will confuse you needlessly from the start, plus mass deleting is an usual "no no" when it comes to avoiding future bugs.
For a unit for instance, you'd start with it's actor coupled with it's model, then create the unit. (you'll probably do it every which way until you get the hang of it however sometimes stuff requires to be done simultaneously and it's very easy to overlook a dependency or an attachment).

___________________________________________________________________________
Units
This with the ability is by far the longest thing to showcase (mapmaker's interests and potential wise) so bear with me...

In galaxy, you cannot change a unit per say, you will duplicate it.
Choose wisely the "base" of your new unit since some of it's characteristics will remain unalterable (it helps in predefining your unit anyway).
Extensively configure it right after "cloning" (even ticking all the original "traits" when duplicating can still bug or simply not give it all the right settings), double check every setting while the original is still right over it in the listing + Show Spoiler +
(when you'll have renamed it it will be a pain to move from the original to your new version (believe me you don't need the grief right off the bat))
and
...finally replace it in the tech tree in the original's stead for it to appear in game (and this can require different or several modifications of several different object types).
For example, if you want to turn a critter on your map to an invisible critter, copy it (check thoroughly) rename it, give it the "permanently cloaked" ability and replace the actual critter on the map with yours (setting it to the in build (last) hostile player controller (on the unit in the map)).+ Show Spoiler +
(no one's thought of it yet apparently, but i think it's funny if the corridor is blocked by a huge cloaked hostile brutalisk+ Show Spoiler +
makes me smile and sigh for the good ole w1 maps' days with the wizard and his merlin extra pointy hat
Your invisible zealot, to be more on topic, will have to be implemented in your "new" gateway and "new" warpgate instead of the original zealot for your unit to be accessible in game.. i hope you get the picture. (which unit is trained or warped in those 2 is just a setting in a list in either the "train" or "warp" ability the gateway and warp gate respectively have, so in this case there are no new version of gateway and warp gate per say, you just changed the data of the ability they possess).

Original units, like many things from galaxy, require changes over objects' linked with multiple inter dependencies, which is a sh..load of work to master.

Most "simple"units have their own actor, model, behaviors... Simple? Yes, for understanding how things have been implemented by blizz, and therefore what you can in turn play with...
Any cool new unit should be original and will have taken o so many hours days or months to create because of this. Check sc2bw for tl's premiere mod with NEW sc2 ingame models from sc1 (not present originally in the editor), therefore NEW units (of course they are not new to everyone).

Not all units have their own model (model is "shared" and might have an unrelated name (again hard is the path to enlightenment)).

A unit can "carry" several actors through "behavior" or even without, with varying degrees of success. The dark templar have two models (one or the other), but one can also produce a "double" simultaneous actor (both are displayed simultaneously ingame with varying results).

The same unit can be "spawned in an array of different sizes (max scale and minimum scale in the unit's actor data).

As in all prior blizz editors, the units have less in build (unalterable or not) features and "potential" than the heroes.

---
i'll be back for more on the unit front, right after i plant drones and pylons, need to macro.

___________________________________________________________________________
Ability
This is everyone's favourite, cause it's quick and painless!
Well not really quick. All abilities are nicely showcased... Duplicate and change it, then give the ability (in the unit's data) to your unit.
However (and it's still easy+ Show Spoiler +
but the roast is getting overcooked already
) each ability calls upon a new dependency in a cascading style... and although most are easily recognizable easy to find and duplicate and reassign objects... you have to mind not to forget any of those secondary and third "ability derived objects" in your duplicating, reassigning and finally (ze best part) toying with the data (more damage, less array, more delay...) endlessly. You are starting to smell something tediously long and "easy to forget" type of love hate relationship + Show Spoiler +
(but it's just the roast turning into ash)
It is very long (and surprisingly easy) to implement/develop complex original new abilities, and implementing them (unto your unit) is quite easy once you get the hang of it.
Abilities encompass more than you'd think: attack spells but also stuff like creep growth, turning drones into buildings, training units and return gold or collect it... it's definitely "where it's at" for units!

Implementing abilities require to create a button, for in game use.
Just deploy the same tactic as done for the units, duplicating the original button for learning and discipline purpose, check, rename, find your own rarely used graphic to showcase your "new" ability and then make it replace the button in the second ability line in the unit data, so as to properly configure the unit's menu (unit menu ingame)! How cool is that?
Do use the "editor only" prefix or suffix to never loose sight of what when and where, since the search function's reliability is truncated by objects being in several folders.

Also, in order to use an ability that has in build (often melee recognizable) dependency, you must account for it (ie to get the friggin hunter seeker you gotta change the dependency otherwise you'll need to research it, having build the tech lab on a starport ingame. Simply access the ability, duplicate it, duplicate the proper linked dependencies and change what needs to happen (ie nothing (instead of "have the ability researched in starpor"t) for it to be "available") reassign your new dependency to your ability (ie your new one which sets it as available from the start).

Of course this is first step, abilities should be dependent on buildings, timings and such (delaying dts is a good thing (doing it "à la blizz" sucks though)) a real fun part of the player's strategy depends on how well you've thought it through (again blizz ladder showcases a melee type sensible "arborescence" or tech tree, that should always be relied on, dare i say it: emulated.

There are two lines that need be used (in the proper order) so that your ability will work.
First line : the ability your unit needs to have (it displays all abilities currently in the galaxy you own)
and then the second line: the unit's menu, is where you implement the buttons
+ Show Spoiler +
and boy, with that much space to implement (with the sub menus), who needs items special separate window?...no..please blizz let us keep the items separate window please ..it's crucial.

Do it in that order and your ability button conjunction (liaison/link) will work (the button list will display your new ability on the top of it's menu...just select it (and configure "extra" traits of the ability in this "new" menu according to your previous implementing done in the "first" menu.

Many abilities will cost mana/energy, you need to equip said unit with this detail... or at least take it into accunt.
Favour "copying" the stats of pre existing units ; the great examples are: the high templar or even more the carrier (even though it's technically a weapon, the interceptor's most important stats are 1/max carrier hangar count (behavior or ability?!?both) 2/build time/cost (an ability defined "object"), + Show Spoiler +
don't get me started on the lurker
.

So in a sense, the ability defines the unit much more than the actor (both work in conjunction or in opposition.
You get the idea, melee units need stealth or speed or something suited to the fact that they are melee + Show Spoiler +
and for this melee means "attack in close range or upon connection to target it is attacking as opposed to ranged units that attack or cast from a distance
. Like huge tanking damage and slow to protect the aoe ranged casters ... blizz has done a great job on this "balancing front" (f..k no lan for the foreseeable future though) and therefore using them as references will permit you to understand how to "measure" the ability (spawning level and regen time are key, but so is cost (in game time as well as resources)), everything is doable, not everything CAN work, even if implemented (again do not sacrifice a map, sacrifice a "saved as" in order to test quirky untested implementation, ready to take a step back with galaxy on the previous version where you'd re implement "back to default"what you just tried to change, in order to salvage it's no bug efficiency.

---
of course this is also a bare dusting for this one two...
___________________________________________________________________________
behaviors ...my behavior has been repeatedly said to "disturb the chi cultivated on tl"

___________________________________________________________________________
Behaviors
These encompass the finer things. And therefore deserve respect.
From the time it takes to spread creep to the ability to wander off "out of your control" (that's so cool for a unit!), the behavior is applied to units or even actors... + Show Spoiler +
brrrr starting to fee a deep chill like han waiting for the patrol to spot him and luke

The most famous is the ability to speed up (reactorchronocreeping would be a nice way to put it). The reactor changes the abilities the barracks have, chrono on p buildings too, creep increases all zerg ground units and allows z building placement / creation ingame / taking damage when not bathed in creep...).
+ Show Spoiler +
Ever heard of that "oh not so smart ling in the pack? Well blizz probably implemented it from the start, they just call it a behavior is all

So if you wish to remain within the safe confines of the melee type of mod, you must tread carefully, since changing behaviors usually means that you'll radically change the game (and that's fine, but you have to accept that fact, plus you'll need that much more testing and populating issues for your mod)...
The melee carcan allows you to keep the blizz ai for computers (real helpful in pre testing your map for one) while still ADDING to the behaviors. Creating units with amazing potential is rarely good with vanilla type ai's for cp use only... and most importantly most people want to play with other players, which is the soul of rts anywho...

___________________________________________________________________________
Lighting
+ Show Spoiler +
For the moment I've just started to "break" this with "weird" implementation, so i guess I'll stick to the "casual" use and come back when I'm done, if I haven't been banned by then
.
Just paste light emitters according to your texture layout.
Like textures, there are two "strata":
the general (the one defining "general" lighting regrouping a bunch each time (based on the ladder maps sort of) but with lot's of "identical" light emitters AND specific ones you cannot find in other "groups")
and
each individual light emitter (or other).. these act as doodads or just as virtual (no "unit" but a dotlike light source...)
These light emitters can be played with when placed on your map... (if you want a bunch of the same variation of one of the Light object, just (for instance) make it's scale bigger and then copy and paste until your done... you don't need to change it in the editor, saves time).

___________________________________________________________________________
Bugs ...I like to help fixing them and seeing invested people happy.

___________________________________________________________________________
Testing
Always use the insane level for cp testing of your map.

Before implementing a proper energy count, time of research or cost or whatever... test that the ability works with low cost/research time first. You do not need the grief.


___________________________________________________________________________
Areas
These are what I'd like to master properly
+ Show Spoiler +
hope I get to see a melee globe type map... from anyone.


___________________________________________________________________________
Triggers
trigger me softly
___________________________________________________________________________
Saving the galaxy
Note that you should always try to publish your map (if you change "important" settings) because otherwise it might be reduced to offline only play (this limits the play of your map to a 1 player downloaded map) and this after countless changes and hours of passionate work, which might amount to anything usable (chalking it up to experience is not what it's cracked up to be in that moment).
Try your change on an easy default "empty" map (and stomach), if it gets published, you can go on spending months on the proper map/mod.

Certain implementing experiments change your editor, galaxy in many ways (types) does not have a general reset to default, because in some (many some would say) cases you are changing the software you are using. You will have a "changed" galaxy onward (until reinstall), so be careful what you wish for.
___________________________________________________________________________
if you have a question, wish to help by correcting this rant, it'd be my pleasure
to help if I can, just pm me
___________________________________________________________________________
Questions:[image loading]
+ Show Spoiler +
1/ should tl implement a random decal/avatar?

[image loading]



+ Show Spoiler +
I feel all around random players have earned it+ Show Spoiler +
, we of course have the most fun, but we are not represented on tl+ Show Spoiler +
, i switch every thursday?, ...gimme gimme gimme + Show Spoiler +
gimme a rope and h..g me...song)
i'd select it even with no "evolution" chain available

2/ How do you get real bridges? Is it playable with special no attack areas, that allow teleportation of units under the tunnel? (void type of ability) (+ Show Spoiler +
i know that'd be cheating, but all is fair in love and war
)?

Answers: + Show Spoiler +
the name of my next map: + Show Spoiler +
"tl bot"+ Show Spoiler +
this beastie boy rules all + Show Spoiler +
, ..well ...all of tl
http://www.teamliquid.net/mirror/smilies/random-big.gif
baskerville
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
541 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-22 13:23:09
December 11 2010 03:03 GMT
#2
Last map published is first showcased
___---___---___---___---___---___---___---___---___---___---___---___---___---___---___---___---

Gameplay and Previous responses on the end of the post
___---___---___---___---___---___---___---___---___---___---___---___---___---___---___---___---
______________________________________________________________ _______________
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

[image loading]

extra:+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

+ Show Spoiler +
extra:
[image loading]

extra:+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

extra:

link and published on eu.Oh..yes!+ Show Spoiler +
if he asks me, + Show Spoiler +
i'll change the name at once
______________________________________________________________ _______________
Ra's Zenith
[image loading]

extra:+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
link and published on eu
______________________________________________________________ _______________
[image loading]

link
______________________________________________________________ _______________
Frag Limbo
[image loading]

link
and published on eu
______________________________________________________________ _______________
Maelstrom Temple
is now a mod wip
if u wish to play it for regular melee: search for "Maelstrom Temple original" on bnet (eu)
[image loading]

regularly updated/published on eu
______________________________________________________________ _______________
Tenebra
[image loading]
link
______________________________________________________________ _______________
Blood Stream
[image loading]

link
______________________________________________________________ _______________
A Tale of Two Cities
[image loading]

link
______________________________________________________________ _______________
Clockwork Green
[image loading]

link
and published on eu
______________________________________________________________ _______________
Sandbox
[image loading] link
______________________________________________________________ _______________
Magma Madness
[image loading]

link
______________________________________________________________ _______________
Ash Temple
[image loading]

link
and published on eu
______________________________________________________________ _______________
Cinder Tears
[image loading]

link and published on eu
______________________________________________________________ _______________
Bishop to King 8
[image loading]

link
______________________________________________________________ _______________
Aiur Sapphire Gardens
[image loading]

link
______________________________________________________________ _______________
Victorian Checkmate 2
[image loading]
link
______________________________________________________________ _______________
Morning Napalm
[image loading]

link and published on eu
______________________________________________________________ _______________
Knight to King 5 (2°)
[image loading]

link and published on eu
______________________________________________________________ _______________
Demonoid Whisper
[image loading]

link and published on eu
______________________________________________________________ _______________
Dead Star
[image loading]

link and published on eu
______________________________________________________________ _______________
Hades’ Locker
[image loading]

link
______________________________________________________________ _______________
Victorian Checkmate.
[image loading]
link
______________________________________________________________ _______________

______________________________________________________________ _______________
gameplay:
+ Show Spoiler +
My idea of mapmaking, as hard as it seems to understand apparently, is that the map dictates the plays...
Agreed...? If yes then read on, otherwise ignore, thank you for your time
+ Show Spoiler +

In my case, I dislike turtles or 200 one A attacks...
I feel a difficult main is where the game should be at...
I love the idea that you should spend 10/20 minutes on each tech "tier" ...
I could go on and on... but you get my point. This said, and yes mapmakers do "their" thing, I produce maps for that type of play...is that not obvious?

I never declared this is better, or this is balanced or anything of a sort (please, check it for yourself)

... my idea is that it's interesting and produces a very "back and forth", graze the edge type of play" + Show Spoiler +

favouring 3/6 minute mark attack harass
followed by timing pushes,
backs and forth
(with the one winning a bit getting the "possibility" of teching or "fast" expanding)

until someone cracks under pressure (attack or counter)
+ Show Spoiler +

this is my preference, i love playing random... and boy does pressure save my ass more than macro + Show Spoiler +
(and i know u got to have macro and micro and strategy + Show Spoiler +
and your fingers out of my soup



... that's all.

POSSIBLY Ra's Zenith, Maelstrom and Ash "temples" could be considered all of the aforementioned, since after all they are "grand theft blizz" maps + Show Spoiler +

respectively
Ra's Zenith=Zenith base with lot's of changes
Maelstrom=Lost Temple base with loads of features and significant changes
Ash =Metalopolis base with few features and changes
, with only "further" implementation from my array of wishes for 1v1 play, that do not seem to exist in any maps yet.

____________________________________________________________________________

____________________________________________________________________________


+ Show Spoiler +
and so the spoiler cascade continues:
+ Show Spoiler +

tl original ban:+ Show Spoiler +

TL.net Bot TL.net. November 11 2010 07:52. Posts 18 Profile #
baskerville was just temp banned for 30 days by Manifesto7.

That account was created on 2010-04-15 19:32:26 and had 147 posts.

Reason: Your presence is a disturbance to the chi we cultivate on TeamLiquid. Your impossible lack of manners means this is a permanent ban, not a temporary ban.

note: + Show Spoiler +
this was a month long ban


and on
+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=95875&currentpage=178


Previous responses:
+ Show Spoiler +

Responses:
____________________________________________________________________________

@ GenesisX: please, you tell me... I honestly would like more players to test them to find out.
____________________________________________________________________________

@LunarC: Thank you for commenting. I'm sorry I disagree with certain of your notions that seem to cramp the potential array of game plays, game styles... etc
I like the idea of a difficult main, and despise the notion that an easy nat and third are the only way people should play this game, mappers should make their maps with that in mind blablabla.
As for the "noway these maps are balanced", it's a catchy way of saying what you feel, not what you know, thanks again.
____________________________________________________________________________

@iGrok: thank you for your comment
"For the most part, you use ~3 different terrains, and they basically serve to highlight where the cliffs/paths are"
I've hardly scratched the surface of the editor's capabilities, I'm doing it one strata at a time (check out Hadès Locker for my doodad debut), I've yet to dabble with lighting mmmm good times ahead..., all my "good" maps will get all the overalls one strata at a time.
"(although the random blank squares need to be filled in)"
that' only the preview picture, ingame the map displays no such graphic "bump"
Edit: ouuuu had not checked everywhere... I'll have to fix it.

____________________________________________________________________________

@LunarC: I feel that creating new maps is exactly that: doing NEW things. Thanks again for your input, if I may, I'll just say that artists are at their best when (after conceptualizing pondering researching and what not for a while) they throw all their assumptions out the window and get to work. (well is it really work?.. no, but I do think it gets people as tense as work does).
____________________________________________________________________________

@blubbdavid: thanks, I've missed this custom maps thread too, hope I get to stay more then the 3/4 days I got last time.
____________________________________________________________________________

@Johanaz: Thank you for your insightful post ...I actually have very little time to devote to mapping and yes, for now, I paint the maps and I'm still on the fence about cliffs ...
"Please fix the jagged edges on those space station maps": I'm sure all my cliffs need reworking technically or graphically.
Yes there are ways to get what you want perfect (rotational texture copy being one), but I' am reviewing textures and not done with them yet (mostly the way the graphics engine layers them with one another). I intend to visit and revisit each aspect of the editor so that each epiphany gets translated to ALL of my maps...
I'm sure the spontaneity and creativity surges are whimpered down by such concepts as:
"maps should be only be discussed/played/tested if they stand a chance of one day be balanced" "symmetry is the ideal" "only diamond players should post about the game or maps"
"players must know every map they play by heart"...
I do love the editor and hope to share many a dry wit with all you mappers and players who actually post on map threads.
"analyzer pics, in-game screenshots of main, natural and so on." are all forthcoming.
However I'm trying to produce a build order video for my favorites, so...
if you want / have the time, feel free to upload any of those here, like I said I'm on several horses and noone's driving the coach.
____________________________________________________________________________

@Koagel: thanks for the support, I'm a pig head who'll always do what he wants, but it's always nice to hear nice things about one's passion.
____________________________________________________________________________

@Ragoo "I really like Dead Star for 6 player FFA tho, will play try it next LAN"
thanks, I'd love to see replays, just not too sure how the "only mains and no expo" plays out.
____________________________________________________________________________

@funcmode: don't get me in trouble yet, I'll do it myself. Oh and thanks for posting.
____________________________________________________________________________

@Antares777 : "Could you add more information about each one of your maps?"
I'd rather not clutter (I think 3 pictures per map will be my max), I'll be looking into (yet another haystack to pick) the Galaxy analyzer (boy is this the best editor ever), furthermore my own data pictures are forthcoming...
I'd still like your take on more precisely what type of information you'd like, cause I'm the worst chatterbox, you'd have to read pages if I didn't restrain myself.. however, you are right, I'll edit "first thoughts on gameplay" for each one i consider interesting enough to detail.
"I have no idea what is going on at Victorian Checkmate.", neither do I, it's too weird too complicated too green.. however if anyone's got anything out of it: "job done"
Notice I did go on to Victorian Checkmate 2... I'll revizit 1 after I get this build order video online and I'm satisfied with how the concept has evolved with extra editor mileage !
"The 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock bases on Ash Temple have ramps that are not oriented symmetrically". Like I said earlier, so many people base their mapmaking on this that I'd rather not compete with them yet. On the daffyduck side of things, I feel the symmetry helps too much the player ingame, I like the idea of a map you'll "feel" not one you'll "know" and therefore might steer clear of symmetry concept for long. (I did start with my Knight and Bishop maps, the transformation is pending my satisfaction with said functionality)
"The map itself seems very choked up even if the rocks were absent"
Yeah, it's Metal, since then I've seen other takes on one of blizz's most interesting 4 base map... and my version felt disappointing... as for it's playability with z in mind (or "first thoughts on gameplay") this version I'd update as: favored for mirror match ups.
"I do not like Dead Star period... the lack of expansions...Fast expanding would be annihilated ...... This would force harassment plays or teching/bunkering down."
No worries mate,
For 1v1 it's a concept map, scarce resource and I would have said it favoured:
6 pools mass marine rushing or mass zealot rush...no? (mass zealot rush .. ahhhh the first ai attack in sc1, souvenir souvenir)
For teams or ffa, it should be a buttload of re playable VERY short fun matches...only fun in ffa if you do multiple matches and get pass the 5 minute mark in one out of three games...
I'll admit I had ffa in mind, still I think it's a valid concept for 1v1.
Oh and I only make max size maps...conceited I know, however the lag is the only real drawback.
thank you for posting with verve.
____________________________________________________________________________

@Serejai : I'm in the process of finishing my "tour" of the texturing part of the editor and will be doing overhaul of my maps once I get past the lighting factor. I have barely started doodads on Hadès Locker, but I'm not in ahurry for that either, but you are right I'll have to get to it.
"I'll try to play them a bit over the holidays and give you some balance feedback."
That would be very much appreciated, thank you.
"PS - What's with the weird black spots in your images and the lack of terrain around the borders of your map? Image capture issues?"
guess I forgot to go back to "lock to game view" or something, I 'll try and fix it, hope it didnt ruin your viewing.
Edit: just realized I forgot to say I prefer the empty look for the out of bounds exterior because it helps me get the sizes of the bounds, but it's not at all based on aesthetics or other, it will probably change in half of my maps once I get the knack for the geometry invoved in the edges.
____________________________________________________________________________

@G_Wen: Dead Star is meant to be a one base rush type map, or a fun mass ffa. That is its concept and it engenders drawbacks. (op on it mentions "no expos only main")
I have not "finished" any of my maps, as far as I'm concerned maps should be played more then discussed. As for your aggressive approach, I see no need for it. My maps are ... what they are...they do not deter or hinder anything for anyone.
I've yet to finish my tour of the editor, so try to view them (if you must) as works in progress. Graphics and mostly gameplay seem infinite on this sweet editor, I fail to see the need for hindering myself with preconceived ideas while I'm still savoring the discovery of the editor. I would understand if I was boosting that this X map is done and "balanced"... which I haven't to date... playable glitch free original, that's the terms I'd be using.
____________________________________________________________________________

@Barrin: both Dead Star and Magma Madness are based on concepts for max ffa (needs filling up all the spawning slots and (once again) needs to be played knowing there are NO EXPO, you must expo on corpses mmmmmsweet)...furthermore, both might produce interesting 1v1 play... Magma Madness, which you are referencing, is my BGH work in progress.
The order of presentation of my maps has always been the order of their production.
____________________________________________________________________________

@DNB: thanks for watching them, sorry... I guess pointing out that they are works in progress doesn't help does it?

____________________________________________________________________________

@ Slivered Skin "Have you considered reworking some of your older maps?"
Yes, I'm actively doing it also, the maps are sketches into good maps into finished maps and I'll be sick not to be able to tamper tinker with them anymore... as of now, I've done Victorian Checkmate 2° and I'll be steering back towards the original impulses (vc1) in a 3°... cause I know I'm not there yet...
My view of showcasing them too early is not only philosophical but comes out of pure selfishness: get feedback to improve layouts and gameplay but mostly have untested concepts in use real time.
____________________________________________________________________________


good night and have fun
http://www.teamliquid.net/mirror/smilies/random-big.gif
GenesisX
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada4267 Posts
December 11 2010 03:05 GMT
#3
Are these balanced for competitive play?
133 221 333 123 111
LunarC
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States1186 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-11 07:57:31
December 11 2010 03:23 GMT
#4
There is no way these maps are balanced...

Some suggestions:
- Do not break convention too much. Resources at bases should be placed normally. This is essential for competitive play.

- Keep it simple. Too many paths, too many options, and too many things to exploit only serve to clutter a map.

- Distances and positioning are key. Pay very close attention to these concepts when placing bases and creating open/tight areas.

- Watch high level games. This is essential to hypothesizing what kind of playstyle your map will encourage.

- Play until you get to a high level. Experiencing the game firsthand gives you a sense of how you would play your map as each race option.

- Spend a lot of time on one map, not short amounts of time on lots of maps. This is extremely important.

- Pay attention to how an army would have to be positioned to defend expansions. Do not make this distance too large or too small. If it's too large, it'll be too hard to defend. If it's too small, it'll be too easy to defend.

- If the main is too hard to defend, the game will not progress beyond one-base aggressive play.

- Symmetry. Terrain should be more or less symmetrical. This is for aesthetic and balance purposes.
REEBUH!!!
prodiG
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada2016 Posts
December 11 2010 04:32 GMT
#5
Welcome back baskerville!
ESV Mapmaking Team || http://twitter.com/prodiGsc || Real talk, I don't have time to sugar-coat it for you sir
iGrok
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5142 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-11 08:18:07
December 11 2010 05:52 GMT
#6
I'm just going to comment on the artistic style (or somewhat lack thereof).

When I first looked at your maps, I hated them. Artistically, they were terrible when compared to others that were coming out. I couldn't actually focus on the gameplay on "Victorian checkmate", for example, because I was too drawn in by the aesthetics.

But when I started to look at them from a BW standpoint, things kind of changed. I actually get somewhat nostalgic. For the most part, you use ~3 different terrains, and they basically serve to highlight where the cliffs/paths are. Its so simple that it (usually) works. I don't mind seeing this style from someone (although the random blank squares need to be filled in).


And welcome back xD
MOTM | Stim.tv | TL Mafia | Fantasy Fighting! | SNSD
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
December 11 2010 06:36 GMT
#7
--- Nuked ---
BLinD-RawR
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
ALLEYCAT BLUES50107 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-11 08:02:15
December 11 2010 07:58 GMT
#8
welcome back baskerville :D.
Brood War EICWoo Jung Ho, never forget.| Twitter: @BLinDRawR
TL+ Member
LunarC
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States1186 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-11 08:21:42
December 11 2010 08:21 GMT
#9
I was actually speaking about how most maps are designed so that additional expansions are "tiered" in how difficult they are to defend. I definitely don't think that having an easy third or nat is the only way to go.

That being said, it's nice to think outside the box and be experimental. BUT as an example, Starcraft Brood War is a game that has pretty much been figured out. As many very credible people have said, the maps have a lot to do with game balance. Professional Brood War is balanced through how maps are designed.

Though you can choose to think outside the box and do things no one else has ever done before, be warned that Starcraft 2 shares the same sort of balance that Brood War was found to possess.

Also, it seems that your maps are huge. That is not good for capturing the "essence" of a strategy when playing the map because of so much superfluous space. Also, it makes it hard for players to analyze the map.

If your goal is to focus on "openness", balance it out with expansions around the edges of the map (like on BW map Outsider).
If your goal is fast access to a third base, balance it with vulnerabilities elsewhere.
If you dislike the convention of an easy natural and an easy third with an open main, balance it out with having more resources at the starting location and giving players other places from which to defend their main.

Also, don't get too experimental with how your resources are placed. Nobody likes having to play the way you have forced them into playing by placing the resources in strange configurations. It doesn't look nice and there is not much tactical value; at least in the way you explored that idea.

I hate having to put a cap on your experimentation, but there's no way you'll get recognized unless you follow certain conventions OR you reasonably balance innovations with conventions.
REEBUH!!!
baskerville
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
541 Posts
December 11 2010 15:21 GMT
#10
updated op
http://www.teamliquid.net/mirror/smilies/random-big.gif
blubbdavid
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Switzerland2412 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-11 15:33:35
December 11 2010 15:30 GMT
#11
fuck, I missed ya.

Welcome back

And Sapphire Garden looks interesting, u have improved
What do you desire? Money? Glory? Power? Revenge? Or something that surpasses all other? Whatever you desire - that is here. Tower of God ¦¦Nutella, drink of the Gods
Johanaz
Profile Joined September 2010
Denmark363 Posts
December 11 2010 15:34 GMT
#12
Please fix the jagged edges on those space station maps. Just pick same level terrain brush, like size 2 and re-brush near edges. it´ll clean right up.
(I´ve encountered that same issue on my space maps).

Correct me if I´m wrong but I would guess that you haven´t figured out how to copy-paste terrain and textures yet. That allows you to really put a lot more effort into designing bases with more attention to detail, and then paste-rotate/mirror to other spawn locations.

Also, I´d like so see a more in-depth presentation of each map; analyzer pics, in-game screenshots of main, natural and so on.

If you need any help with the above, feel free to ask. Plenty of helpful and skilled people here ;-)
TPW Map Maker - theplanetaryworkshop.com
Koagel
Profile Joined October 2010
Austria167 Posts
December 11 2010 16:18 GMT
#13
Ahoy Baskerville, I hope you don't get yourself banned this time, as your style of mapping serves as an inspiration to us all.
Welcome back lad.
Ragoo
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany2773 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-12 18:46:13
December 11 2010 17:28 GMT
#14
These maps have a hilariously horrible look, are you serious?^^

I really like Dead Star for 6 player FFA tho, will try it next LAN
Member of TPW mapmaking team/// twitter.com/Ragoo_ /// "goody represents border between explainable reason and supernatural" Cloud
funcmode
Profile Joined June 2010
Australia720 Posts
December 11 2010 17:48 GMT
#15
iCCup move over, baskerville is here.
@funcmode - TPW Mapmaking Team - theplanetaryworkshop.com
Antares777
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1971 Posts
December 11 2010 22:15 GMT
#16
I haven't seen SCII maps anything like this before, so I'm going to try to refrain from posting too much about them without really understanding them. Could you add more information about each one of your maps? I'm particularly interested in their map size and where the mains are located (for some of them), although an SCII analyzer image would be great. I'm having a hard time distinguishing cliffs from... well, not cliffs.

I'm seeing some maps that use cardinal oriented ramps, which mess up Terran wall-ins. A general rule would be to have ramps that lead to mains diagonal.

The 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock bases on Ash Temple have ramps that are not oriented symmetrically. The map itself seems very choked up even if the rocks were absent. Zerg seems like it would have a really hard time dealing with this against Terran and Protoss.

I do not like Dead Star period. I do not see any map flow to it or RvR or anything that good maps usually have present because of the lack of expansions. In a 1v1 situation, scouting would take too long. Fast expanding would be annihilated because you already have a high yield expansion with a higher than standard mineral count. This would force harassment plays or teching/bunkering down. Going around the side ring is extremely risky and I do not think it would be worth it. For harassment purposes... I don't know, but I still do not think it would be worth it.

I have no idea what is going on at Victorian Checkmate.
Serejai
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
6007 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-11 22:40:47
December 11 2010 22:38 GMT
#17
I'm not going to comment on balance or anything because that's a really stupid thing to do without actually playing the maps. I will, however, comment on the artistic aspect.

From an artistic standpoint, the maps are pretty bland and rough around the edges. If I had to guess, you probably spent about 30 minutes per map on terraining, painting, and doodads combined. I can't speak for other maps, but I tend to spend close to 20 hours per map adjusting those aspects of it. I'm sure that's well over the norm, but I guess my point here is that the effort you put into it is a bit under the amount most people do. I'd recommend going back and basically tweaking the visuals of each map a bit.

Doodads would help immensely in giving your maps a more inviting feel (just don't overuse them). Painting would help keep the maps uniform and blended so the landscape doesn't detract from the gamplay (for example, I wouldn't be able to play your first map because I'd constantly stare at the square lines running through it. Simply blending the textures would work wonders there to make a more natural looking path). Lastly, terraining isn't quite as important, but it's insanely quick and easy to get a base down for it. Just use the roughening tool to add subtle bumps in certain areas of the map so it doesn't feel flat. You don't even have to worry about the more advanced terrain features.

If you have any questions or don't have a clue what I'm talking about and want to see one of my maps for comparison, just PM me and I'd be glad to show you a before/after image on my current map with the above mentioned changes.

Otherwise, I'll try to play them a bit over the holidays and give you some balance feedback.

PS - What's with the weird black spots in your images and the lack of terrain around the borders of your map? Image capture issues?
I HAVE 5 TOAST POINTS
G_Wen
Profile Joined September 2009
Canada525 Posts
December 12 2010 00:40 GMT
#18
On December 12 2010 02:48 funcmode wrote:
iCCup move over, baskerville is here.

Announcing new member of iCCup: Baskerville. Baskerville will now take over as head of the iCCup map making team.

But seriously take a look at dead star:
[image loading]
You can not take an expansion because of how impossibly difficult it would be to defend. This just encourages one base play.

Please put some more effort in decorating your maps they need a lot of work.

Also many of your maps are flawed because of a symmetry. Hades locker as a longer path to the "third" for one side than the other.
ESV Mapmaking Team
prodiG
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada2016 Posts
December 12 2010 17:06 GMT
#19
On December 12 2010 09:40 G_Wen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 12 2010 02:48 funcmode wrote:
iCCup move over, baskerville is here.

Announcing new member of iCCup: Baskerville. Baskerville will now take over as head of the iCCup map making team.

ESV Mapmaking Team || http://twitter.com/prodiGsc || Real talk, I don't have time to sugar-coat it for you sir
baskerville
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
541 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-17 16:32:52
December 12 2010 19:09 GMT
#20
added map in op: Magma Madness
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Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-13 18:40:04
December 12 2010 19:24 GMT
#21
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DNB
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Finland995 Posts
December 13 2010 09:53 GMT
#22
Your maps are aesthetically somewhat displeasing
baskerville
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
541 Posts
December 13 2010 12:01 GMT
#23
updated op with new map: Sandbox
http://www.teamliquid.net/mirror/smilies/random-big.gif
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
December 13 2010 18:42 GMT
#24
--- Nuked ---
baskerville
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
541 Posts
December 13 2010 18:46 GMT
#25
updated op with new map: Clockwork Green
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Slivered Skin
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada347 Posts
December 13 2010 19:55 GMT
#26
I am quite disappointed at Clockwork Green's lack of smiley faces. It's probably the most depressing map you've made so far, baskerville. What gives?
Those most oft mated find love’s motive in a word: inebriated - Get well Violet!! And sC!! T_T
Antares777
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1971 Posts
December 13 2010 20:32 GMT
#27
On December 14 2010 03:42 Barrin wrote:
Can you please put your images in + Show Spoiler +
spoilers?


first page of this thread is such a pain to read right now


Pretty please?
baskerville
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
541 Posts
December 13 2010 20:46 GMT
#28
On December 14 2010 05:32 Antares777 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2010 03:42 Barrin wrote:
Can you please put your images in + Show Spoiler +
spoilers?


first page of this thread is such a pain to read right now


Pretty please?


I left 1 picture per map... is that not what was asked for? (I'm going to replace the "unscaled" pictures... just looking at how it looked)
You want all the pictures in spoilers? ... cause I'd rather not.. rather spoiler my text rants (as opposed to my map rants)... I'll probably re do the whole look of the thread, but I'd rather map right now.
http://www.teamliquid.net/mirror/smilies/random-big.gif
Slivered Skin
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada347 Posts
December 13 2010 21:12 GMT
#29
On December 14 2010 05:46 baskerville wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2010 05:32 Antares777 wrote:
On December 14 2010 03:42 Barrin wrote:
Can you please put your images in + Show Spoiler +
spoilers?


first page of this thread is such a pain to read right now


Pretty please?


I left 1 picture per map... is that not what was asked for? (I'm going to replace the "unscaled" pictures... just looking at how it looked)
You want all the pictures in spoilers? ... cause I'd rather not.. rather spoiler my text rants (as opposed to my map rants)... I'll probably re do the whole look of the thread, but I'd rather map right now.


Pretty please with sugar on top? If the pictures were in spoilers it would make checking up on this thread a lot easier, especially if you insist upon replying to everyone in the same post.
Those most oft mated find love’s motive in a word: inebriated - Get well Violet!! And sC!! T_T
baskerville
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
541 Posts
December 13 2010 21:29 GMT
#30
"Pretty please with sugar on top? ", I don't think that's warranted, is it?

I spoilered op to the max, I feel a picture is essential for each map, still there are other ways than the spoilers (which are not my personal cup of tea, I hate unnecessary clicking in threads)
and I'm on it...

Just for the record I got banned 30 days for responding / "trolling" in my own posts (or was I?) , so that's why I do it that way... I don't even know what my preference is, I'm not into learning a new software or forum browser possibilities, forum etiquette, every day...
I got Galaxy, that's what I spend my free time on...
http://www.teamliquid.net/mirror/smilies/random-big.gif
Slivered Skin
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada347 Posts
December 13 2010 21:37 GMT
#31
Heh, sorry, I was going with the flow.

Have you considered reworking some of your older maps?
Those most oft mated find love’s motive in a word: inebriated - Get well Violet!! And sC!! T_T
baskerville
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
541 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-13 23:20:33
December 13 2010 21:39 GMT
#32
On December 14 2010 04:55 Slivered Skin wrote:
I am quite disappointed at Clockwork Green's lack of smiley faces. It's probably the most depressing map you've made so far, baskerville. What gives?


Guess my kids' coloring palette and the fact that he's sick... I get time to map while he naps but I worry and it transcends in the result...
I'm practicing partitioning the max layout the map allows and using all the textures till I've seen them all... Then I'll start WORK.

I think the Clockwork tileset (can't remember which original one it is) is one of the most surprising I've encountered yet, from the start...
plus I'm getting a "groove" in the "systematic" blending..
In short (zatwasnotpossiblewazit?) I agree, the most depressing feeling I've managed to convey thus far.
Thanks for posting.

EDIT: I suppose I'll add:
if you wish me to answer you at the end of the thread then ask... otherwise my responses will be done in the 2nd post.
And thank you all for posting.
http://www.teamliquid.net/mirror/smilies/random-big.gif
baskerville
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
541 Posts
December 14 2010 23:44 GMT
#33
updated op with new map: A Tale of Two Cities
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iGrok
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5142 Posts
December 15 2010 08:29 GMT
#34
I really like the Clockwork Green idea. I strongly suggest that you focus on that or a different map, and really polish it.
MOTM | Stim.tv | TL Mafia | Fantasy Fighting! | SNSD
baskerville
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
541 Posts
December 17 2010 02:02 GMT
#35
thank you for that. Will do. Until then, updated op with new map: Blood Stream.
http://www.teamliquid.net/mirror/smilies/random-big.gif
baskerville
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
541 Posts
December 17 2010 15:42 GMT
#36
Updated op with new version of Clockwork Green.
http://www.teamliquid.net/mirror/smilies/random-big.gif
baskerville
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
541 Posts
December 17 2010 16:16 GMT
#37
updated op with new map: Tenebra
http://www.teamliquid.net/mirror/smilies/random-big.gif
baskerville
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
541 Posts
December 17 2010 20:42 GMT
#38
updated op:
Demonoid whisper, new version after graphics overhaul
and
Morning Napalm
(don't even remember why I didn't put it in from the start, bouhou getting old)
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baskerville
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
541 Posts
December 18 2010 14:47 GMT
#39
updated op:
Knight to King 5, new version after graphics overhaul
and
format the op
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baskerville
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
541 Posts
December 21 2010 19:41 GMT
#40
updated op with new map: Santa
http://www.teamliquid.net/mirror/smilies/random-big.gif
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
December 21 2010 19:45 GMT
#41
--- Nuked ---
baskerville
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
541 Posts
December 21 2010 19:49 GMT
#42
Polishing makes no sense whatsoever until you get the hang of Galaxy, which is still not my case...
On the daffyduck side: I did polish and improve (that is from where I stand of course) said map and others...
+ Show Spoiler +
baskerville December 18 2010 00:42. Posts 205 PM Profile Quote Edit #
Updated op with new version of Clockwork Green.

+ Show Spoiler +
baskerville December 18 2010 05:42. Posts 205 PM Profile Quote Edit #
updated op:
Demonoid whisper, new version after graphics overhaul

+ Show Spoiler +
baskerville December 18 2010 23:47. Posts 205 PM Profile Quote Edit #
updated op:
Knight to King 5, new version after graphics overhaul
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Koagel
Profile Joined October 2010
Austria167 Posts
December 21 2010 20:05 GMT
#43
Santa looks like a nice christmas map, from a solely visual viewpoint...

+ Show Spoiler +
And if you mean darkness, it's tenebrae.
baskerville
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
541 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-21 23:19:07
December 21 2010 20:17 GMT
#44
+ Show Spoiler +
tenebrae is a classy title isn't...? Guess the special feature made me think of it.
I named my map (per usual) after something I respect, ... I liked it without the e, because it means many tenebrae.
(+ Show Spoiler +
wiki
)
Thank you for posting.
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Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
December 21 2010 20:26 GMT
#45
--- Nuked ---
Koagel
Profile Joined October 2010
Austria167 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-21 20:31:07
December 21 2010 20:27 GMT
#46
Interesting, my dictionary only showed the plural...

EDIT: Concerning polishing: you don't get better by repeating old mistakes, but by taking time to develop your skills. If you take time on the maps and try to let them look good, they will one day. If you just play around all the time, they won't. It is true that you'll learn by doing, but only if you try to.
FlaShFTW
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States10107 Posts
December 21 2010 21:29 GMT
#47
baskerville, i really like your imagination, and sense of approach to this map-making area. however, i strongly encourage you to make more standard maps. youll see that they get a better responce from them, and you can actually play games. your pathing places, weird base placements, and random items, only serve to confuse me, "do you want people to play on your maps???" isnt what this thread is for??? having maps people would actually play on??? but enough of this, just letting you know that people would like your maps more if they were maps that could actually be played on.
Writer#1 KT and FlaSh Fanboy || Woo Jung Ho Never Forget || Teamliquid Political Decision Desk
TL+ Member
Antares777
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1971 Posts
December 21 2010 21:58 GMT
#48
On December 22 2010 05:26 Barrin wrote:
Not all polishing is done directly through the editor.


Um... would you by any chance know how to copy an image from idk outside the editor and then paste it onto a map, like a texture in a way? I've been trying to figure out how to do that for my holiday map, because drawing a Christmas tree or a snowman would be rather difficult using the terrain brushes.

That reminds me, does anyone know how to make a snow title set? What lighting and what title set would work best? I'm thinking Xil, but I don't know a clue about lighting.
baskerville
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
541 Posts
December 21 2010 22:25 GMT
#49
On December 22 2010 05:26 Barrin wrote:
Not all polishing is done directly through the editor.


Yes..? I concur, that's exactly why I publish and make them freely downloadable on tl or other... and test them myself extensively...or not.
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baskerville
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
541 Posts
December 21 2010 22:55 GMT
#50
On December 22 2010 06:29 FlaShFTW wrote:
baskerville, i really like your imagination, and sense of approach to this map-making area. however, i strongly encourage you to make more standard maps. youll see that they get a better responce from them, and you can actually play games. your pathing places, weird base placements, and random items, only serve to confuse me, "do you want people to play on your maps???" isnt what this thread is for??? having maps people would actually play on??? but enough of this, just letting you know that people would like your maps more if they were maps that could actually be played on.

Thank you.
Responses from whom, almost nobody posts on my thread...? Maybe people download..?

My idea of mapmaking, as hard as it seems to understand apparently, is that the map dictates the plays... agreed...? In my case, I dislike turtles or 200 one A attacks... I feel a difficult main is where the game should be at... I love the idea that you should spend 10/20 minutes on each tech "tier" ... (I could go on and on...) and I produce maps for that type of play...is that not obvious? I could try and churn out a map that would get blessings or what not? What would that make me ...? ahhh ... (for the life of me I can't come up with a wording on that one...) ...?
In any case I've busted open Galaxy and it's costing me already... so I'm miles away of Lighting or other high priority issues for me... soon I won't be "bothering" anyone if this "bugging" Galaxy carries on like this...

I thought showcasing maps of a very different nature would be a plus...for everyone. Apparently it's not ... and I should just post on the op without typing "added map blabla"" on the thread to bump... if people still check the thread cool, if people don't care... who cares...?
"random items" please elaborate? Destructibles??

Do I want my maps played, hell yes!
Possibly there are no players looking to play any of my maps, even then I foolishly thought that people would benefit from looking at what they inspire / aspire for...
Just to clarify, at anytime any of my maps could make someone happy (mapmaker feels less awkward, player feels he's got something OTHER ...you name it).

Thank you for your encouragements, and who knows? perhaps a future map I showcase will be discussed in the same fashion as others are on many a fine thread...

I'd rather hope that some of my maps have already been downloaded and played... Mayhap the large Blizz could tell us?
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baskerville
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
541 Posts
December 21 2010 23:01 GMT
#51
On December 22 2010 06:58 Antares777 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 22 2010 05:26 Barrin wrote:
Not all polishing is done directly through the editor.


Um... would you by any chance know how to copy an image from idk outside the editor and then paste it onto a map, like a texture in a way? I've been trying to figure out how to do that for my holiday map, because drawing a Christmas tree or a snowman would be rather difficult using the terrain brushes.

That reminds me, does anyone know how to make a snow title set? What lighting and what title set would work best? I'm thinking Xil, but I don't know a clue about lighting.


I don't get the quote??? Maybe you could level with me on that?
I have not yet tested said functionality yet... I love getting the hang of the brush on any software...sorry.
" I don't know a clue about lighting", like u said.
I've been playing so much at replacing texture that Galaxy has flat out started to bug...
http://www.teamliquid.net/mirror/smilies/random-big.gif
baskerville
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
541 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-21 23:21:49
December 21 2010 23:16 GMT
#52
On December 22 2010 05:27 Koagel wrote:
Interesting, my dictionary only showed the plural...

EDIT: Concerning polishing: you don't get better by repeating old mistakes, but by taking time to develop your skills. If you take time on the maps and try to let them look good, they will one day. If you just play around all the time, they won't. It is true that you'll learn by doing, but only if you try to.

When there is a flock of responses I take eons to answer all in disorder sorry for the delay and multi posts (equals bump shit) ...

why is there only one good way to do things again? Honestly some of my maps have gone every which way ... and I'm sure it's useful to branch out...

"develop your skills" "take your time" "will one day"..."play around" "only if you try to"...not sure being that guy amounts to anything useful...
You don't like what I do, find it uninteresting ugly useless... that I understand, however you're only telling me that I should place the axioms of my maps as if I thought (apparently) like you: that easy wallable mains are essential, second and third base should always be possible to turtle to... and on and on...
Again, my maps hinder nor hurt anyone's ability to map otherwise... I'm not preaching just making maps available. If players try them they will enjoy them ... or they won't, the point being that they exist and stand (alone in the dark apparently).

In short why so many frowns...?
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iGrok
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5142 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-21 23:53:08
December 21 2010 23:49 GMT
#53
I've played a few of your maps, and the main feeling I get from them is that its just a little awkward. From a purely technical viewpoint, non-standard mains (8m2v, arranged to minimize travel time) make the game much more difficult to play. Creativity is great, and you're one of the most creative people on here, which is one of the reasons people don't bash your maps (another being that TL is an awesome place). Many people here don't have distinctive styles, but you certainly do.

You're still learning the editor - thats fine. So am I. And I get that you're focusing on one thing at a time, I did that as well. As I and Koagel have said, sticking to one map will really benefit you. If you were to start by creating completely 100% normal maps, and then from there changed them to fit you, I would expect your maps would receive a lot of attention.

Instead of making a different map to learn each section of the editor, go back over your old map. Start with just cliffs for example. Version 1. Add different terrain - V2. Add resources - V3. Blend terrain, add detailed terrain - V4. Test it out, change layout - V5. Add doodads - V6. Test it out again, change layout - V7. All on the same basic map, but now you have a much more polished map, even though you only focused on one thing at a time. We'll all be happy to give feedback at any point, and to test your map with you.

This thread was made 10 days ago, and it has 18 maps in it. I know a few were made before the post, but thats still roughly 1.5 maps per day. Most people take a week minimum just working on one map, myself included - and I don't even do much doodad work anymore! Part of being a mapper is patience, and getting the details down right. In Broodwar, mappers tested each tile of cliff to ensure balance. This isn't necessary yet, because the balance is somewhat up in the air, but a lot of attention is needed, and mostly time. Again, I'm always willing to give advice or try something out, just let me know.

Good luck, and I'm looking forward to your next map.

EDIT: One of the reasons your thread doesn't get so much discussion of your maps might be that there are so many so quickly
MOTM | Stim.tv | TL Mafia | Fantasy Fighting! | SNSD
baskerville
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
541 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-31 00:49:25
December 22 2010 00:11 GMT
#54
Thank you iGrok, so do I. (Await all new maps and yours for sure). By the by I was serious about my future inability to do anything with Galaxy... plus I'm working on a mod so I indeed wanted lots of mileage quick with the editor and it's not going as well as w3 AofE or sc1 (which was sooooo easygoing)... heading for a complete reinstall, I don't even mind the cost of buying it again, just the principal bugs me.. you got any ideas about sc2 reinstall (for mac)?
As for your awkwardness playing my maps, I'd add another "buy a beer" type thanks for doing it...
ahhh internet is cool, but I'd need extra mojo to get that one done (delivering said "beer")... where and when to deliver it and whatnot ... anyway hope it wasn't disagreeable, cause gaming is suppose to be cool, I'd be really disturbed if my maps made people stop playing because it does not fit or some shit...
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Koagel
Profile Joined October 2010
Austria167 Posts
December 22 2010 04:14 GMT
#55
On December 22 2010 08:16 baskerville wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 22 2010 05:27 Koagel wrote:
Interesting, my dictionary only showed the plural...

EDIT: Concerning polishing: you don't get better by repeating old mistakes, but by taking time to develop your skills. If you take time on the maps and try to let them look good, they will one day. If you just play around all the time, they won't. It is true that you'll learn by doing, but only if you try to.

When there is a flock of responses I take eons to answer all in disorder sorry for the delay and multi posts (equals bump shit) ...

why is there only one good way to do things again? Honestly some of my maps have gone every which way ... and I'm sure it's useful to branch out...

"develop your skills" "take your time" "will one day"..."play around" "only if you try to"...not sure being that guy amounts to anything useful...
You don't like what I do, find it uninteresting ugly useless... that I understand, however you're only telling me that I should place the axioms of my maps as if I thought (apparently) like you: that easy wallable mains are essential, second and third base should always be possible to turtle to... and on and on...
Again, my maps hinder nor hurt anyone's ability to map otherwise... I'm not preaching just making maps available. If players try them they will enjoy them ... or they won't, the point being that they exist and stand (alone in the dark apparently).

In short why so many frowns...?


Why do you think I'm talking about balance issues? I'm the graphics guy, I don't care if you make wallable mains.
And yeah, I'm pretty sure the most efficient way to get better is trying to get better. Even if you're good it will take time to create maps. Even more so, honestly. Don't rush it, try creating something nice instead of a bunch of mediocre things.
You don't need to to have mastered the tool to create good looks. I don't know squat about the editor, to be honest. And I don't know much about photoshop either and I've done my fair share of character texturing for mods, one of which turned retail. The tool is just the extension of your arm, or your mind maybe. No need to know every little bit about it, just the things you'll eventually use.
baskerville
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
541 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-31 00:52:49
December 22 2010 10:01 GMT
#56
"Why do you think I'm talking about balance issues?"
I meant you advertise for conventional layouts for gameplay, my mistake, I wouldn't have typecasted you... I never do anyone...
for the graphics I think it vital for me to get lighting and mood doodads (clouds and such) in before I can even start something else then sketches or experiments... and me practicing the terrain tool has prevented that but I'll get to it now (brrr actors for lighting brrr!)

Never mind my thread, what the hey... I think everyone's drawing board should be on all our map threads...
it's a good way to avoid sc2mapster type tutorials (which are great but not my particular cup of joe, I like breaking editors and starting neat from bottom to top, plus galaxy bugs a lot when you tinker with terrain height) ; that gets ideas and stuff in the open...
then again the internet in general is more of a : hide it until its too late and the sauce has gone sour... the effervescence of sc2 is nice, so showcasing playable sketches sounded a good idea to me... I guess I'll try it your way... for one map out of 20 that sounds about fair (in my line of work it's more like film/edit 2/4 hours to get 2 minutes right), that's if I get Galaxy to stop bugging hardcore...

EDIT:
+ Show Spoiler +
This map is sc2 balanced: Ash Temple
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baskerville
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
541 Posts
December 24 2010 00:11 GMT
#57
updated op
reformat (last map added is on top)
added first "balanced awaiting polish" map: Maelstrom Temple
enjoy
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iGrok
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5142 Posts
December 24 2010 00:14 GMT
#58
Just glanced at your latest, have to run, but it looks great, I can tell its still your style. I'd be happy to work the lights
MOTM | Stim.tv | TL Mafia | Fantasy Fighting! | SNSD
baskerville
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
541 Posts
December 24 2010 00:20 GMT
#59
you do get hints fast... it'll be my pleasure to see the result, per previous posts I'll be trying to get it to a "retail" quality first on my end
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Antares777
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1971 Posts
December 24 2010 01:17 GMT
#60
Maelstrom Temple seems to be a huge improvement from your other maps, but it isn't fully symmetrical and the high yield expansions have only one choke into them and seem rather easy to defend. You might want to rethink the middle and expansion layout. If you want the map to be symmetrical, make it symmetrical along one of the axises so that you can use the symmetry tool. It's so much easier.
baskerville
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
541 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-15 19:29:50
December 24 2010 13:45 GMT
#61
Thanks for commenting Antares777 + Show Spoiler +
(did you know the 7 is considered perfect in art?)

I agree that blizz's way of setting up the mains is way better than my feeble attempts (figures), I just felt that LT would benefit from being devoid of islands and could use extra expos for late game (i like the bloked expo Scrap Station type of expo + Show Spoiler +
(less t takeoff imba, funsies are really integral part of t gameplay though)
so I just opened them up (I'll be reworking the accesses graphics, why would I leave unused mapmaker space anyhoo), the extra (corner to both naturals) pathways are really nice for gameplay all the way till late game.
As for the corner expos and paths to gold, I'm working on them..
I am testing ingame the areas around the center "mount" to check for bugs, I kinda like the ramps mechanics messing with "simple" move or attack orders from players (I love it when your army splits up because you foolishly rallied it too far without precise way points to insure that they don't split up), I'll be adding los on it to get the maelstrom feel to erupt..
I think the center mount is one or two grid too much to the south though
I was gonna say that the gold should be easy to turtle on + Show Spoiler +
(I'd really like a map with reversal from the usual easy start (with hard late game) to an easy late game (with a hard start))
, providing it could work for all players, and then I remembered I don't like anything easy... what would you think of adding backdoors to the corner pathways? The thing is (I'll love to do it) but in order to make it "balanced" the gold would be very open 2 paths each would make the gold have three entrances (kinda like a roundabout or a crossing (probably add 50hp rocks to close them off temporarily) which might be too open... typing answers does help clarify one's thought process thank you again!

gotta bite my tongue to refrain from adding back doors to the mains (all leading to either of the corner expos)
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baskerville
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
541 Posts
December 25 2010 01:54 GMT
#62
updated op with new version of Maelstrom Temple
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iGrok
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5142 Posts
December 25 2010 05:38 GMT
#63
I personally am loving the colors in it.
MOTM | Stim.tv | TL Mafia | Fantasy Fighting! | SNSD
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-25 06:43:09
December 25 2010 06:39 GMT
#64
--- Nuked ---
baskerville
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
541 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-15 19:32:04
December 28 2010 05:38 GMT
#65
updated op :
1/latest map
2/questions
3/mapmaking tid bits for entrees

4/maps as main course on second post
(followed by gameplay and previous responses for dessert)
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baskerville
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
541 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-24 23:12:07
January 05 2011 01:16 GMT
#66
+ Show Spoiler +
old post:+ Show Spoiler +

In an effort of appeasement between
the pigged headed "foot in my typewriter" passionate mapmaker that I've been on and off for 15 years and only gone back to it full throttle
and
tl "conservative" yet as passionate as me, if not more, mapmakers, who seem to feel I'm just an annoying presence and misrepresent/mislead the custom forum

this will be my last bump on my thread.

I am a genuine mapmaker and I feel both sides have things to regret
I did not like being banned and ridiculed so I ranted on and lashed out when baited ; although I wouldn't have done it any other way, I'll not be doing that again!

So please greet my openly displaying my thoughts on galaxy in the op just as what it is, my last attempt at being left in peace on tl and having the chance to help galaxy geeks get ahead when I can, while getting ignored on other threads (if that's final then so be it)

I hope it helps, ...sharing my drawing boards, my experience in breaking galaxy, was always my intent when posting on tl... not in this drama queen costume someone supplied me though.

I defy anyone to prove to me that I'm belligerent for no good reason or not well mannered (manifesto's post in the ban parade thread comes to mind if you want to see it from within my shoes)
No one helped me the first time around, and I am an old "tired of this before it even began" fart... sorry for that, when you have as few time as I got for mapmaking every day counts for plenty.

In any case, I'm into galaxy and I'm sad to have lost a bunch of nerd sharing potential friends to tinker with that tl could have given me... again my bad probably

In closing, and this for anyone, if you so desire
direct me any post or pm about galaxy,
pertaining to my rant or not...
and if I can help I'll always will.
Mostly directing people to sc2mapster if it's over my "time grade"..

that is, until my blunt dry humor+ Show Spoiler +
(that I've yet to showcase much, I know)
gets me banned permanently.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Latest Responses in this post: / link to op
_____________________________________________________________________________
@Barrin + Show Spoiler +
(2 post before this one)
thanks
_____________________________________________________________________________
@G_Wen
thank u, wish that "line of sight serpent" could move tho, it is pink and that's disturbing to me
feel free to check it out in game or editor since it's but a click away

smoothing out? what when where ... ?

added pictures of Maelstrom Temple to illustrate
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]


+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


[image loading]


[image loading]


also
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


[image loading]

__________________________________________________________________________
@Antares777
Thanks, stealing blizz makes it easy to bypass "basic" Gameplay issues (resources/base to base layouts...)
+ Show Spoiler +
still hard to refrain from "opening" them up further more and adding all the quirky features i can

Changing blizz's Zenith has really been a real eye opener (go from 12 players map to 1v1), even more than tampering with LT or Metal + Show Spoiler +
(funsies: lt / tl )
, which are really cool "templates" for figuring blizz's "axioms" on sc2 maps
_____________________________________________________________________________

+ Show Spoiler +
just 20 to go for page 5! i'll be finished with my latest map by then, cool
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G_Wen
Profile Joined September 2009
Canada525 Posts
January 14 2011 04:06 GMT
#67
Hmm I actually enjoy the blend of colours on Maelstrom Temple. The pink adds a nice touch to the map. Not sure what it looks like up close but the overview has a nice soft touch. It'd look even better if you put more effort into smoothing it out.
ESV Mapmaking Team
Antares777
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1971 Posts
January 14 2011 06:03 GMT
#68
Maelstrom Temple does look nice, both gameplay and aesthetics. It seems to be an attempt at a more standard type of map, which is good. It's nice to see some improvement in your designs!
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-26 16:04:37
January 26 2011 15:59 GMT
#69
--- Nuked ---
Ragoo
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany2773 Posts
January 26 2011 16:13 GMT
#70
This is sad indeed, I never really understood much he said, but he is a nice guy and always tried to help me
Member of TPW mapmaking team/// twitter.com/Ragoo_ /// "goody represents border between explainable reason and supernatural" Cloud
Jetaap
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France4814 Posts
January 26 2011 16:19 GMT
#71
I can't find your map on bnet... I copy pasted "maelstrom temple" from the OP but it doesn't work . Looks fun though
WniO
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2706 Posts
January 26 2011 16:21 GMT
#72
eh i always figured he was a smurf account who just trolled everyone =P, damn he made a lot of maps though.
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-26 16:57:35
January 26 2011 16:32 GMT
#73
--- Nuked ---
Samro225am
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany982 Posts
January 26 2011 17:22 GMT
#74
hm, i like his approach to mapping. always trying to do his own stuff (his way...) had some nice pm chat on rating art/studying art&design.

ban by request - "close your galaxy"
mansnicks
Profile Joined January 2010
Latvia120 Posts
January 26 2011 18:08 GMT
#75
I have 2 questions:
1. why i cant find the map "Maelstrom Temple original"?
2. what means that nuke icon?
Super passive with no scouting is a recipe for disaster.
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
January 26 2011 18:34 GMT
#76
--- Nuked ---
Johanaz
Profile Joined September 2010
Denmark363 Posts
January 26 2011 19:44 GMT
#77
Baskerville

Sorry for ignoring a lot of your posts, but they were just so cryptic and full of implicit connotations, that made them kinda hard to decipher. Also, some of the most respected people here went out of their way to try and guide you towards the path of becoming a respected mapper, but still you let your frustrations get the better of you.

Anyway, thanks for always being nice and supporting towards me a least, and good luck whereever you are.
TPW Map Maker - theplanetaryworkshop.com
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