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On January 08 2008 11:58 teamsolid wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2008 08:58 TheTyranid wrote:On January 06 2008 14:06 LosingID8 wrote:On January 06 2008 00:48 20thCenturyBoy wrote:On January 03 2008 06:47 IntoTheWow wrote:On January 03 2008 06:41 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On January 03 2008 06:31 IntoTheWow wrote:Flash... + Show Spoiler +5 raxed UpMagic yesterday. I hope he dies. Oh, right. I was watching his December games earlier and I didn't watch his ODT group. He 2-0'd it though, and I'd bet he could do that playing any which way. + Show Spoiler +Well, the first game luxury fucking 4 pooled him and lux played the other game like shit too. But won vs Shudder is what it seems it could be the worst game of 2008 already. Getting past his ODT group is not an accomplishment when shitty players and cheeses the only real contender, UpMagic. I agree with this 100% + Show Spoiler +Luxury has been showing some fairly notable play (i use those words loosly) but Flash pulled off his little bitch plays when Ups TvT is dominating. That game made me want to slap Flash in his baby face. oh please, stop hating flash. upmagic is known for his non-standard (aka cheese?) play. if upmagic had done the same thing would you have said "Luxury has been showing some fairly notable play (i use those words loosly) but Upmagic pulled off his little bitch plays when Flash's TvT is dominating. That game made me want to slap Upmagic in his baby face." ? The reason why people hate Flash is because he beat Bisu in the OSL. His builds were brilliant although many people fail to acknowlege that calling it "cheesy" due to their bias toward Bisu. I like both of these players. Flash, and Up are in the same category as Boxer and Casy (although Up's TvZ is utter crap unfortunately). They are the polar opposite of the hated generic macro terran so many of which have sprouted recently. No, people hate Flash because he failed to meet the lofty expectations that everyone had of him (he was 11-0 PvT or something at that time?), then rather than playing a straight up games, he cheesed two games in a row in a BO3 OSL match. Brilliant or not (subjective), they were definitely two all-in early game cheese builds (which is different from non-standard/proxy-builds that Boxer or Upmagic would pull). He has since regained some a lot of credit and I don't mind the guy at all.
Sure they were. But they were the result of studying Bisu's game play and noticing the weaknesses. Bisu had been using a lot of of quick nexus based pvt builds. Flash simply designed the best build to counter it. This talent is what makes a player successful in indivdual leagues. Its also a talent players like Sea lack. Awesome macro + multitask will only get you so far.
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On January 08 2008 12:06 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2008 11:58 teamsolid wrote:On January 07 2008 08:58 TheTyranid wrote:On January 06 2008 14:06 LosingID8 wrote:On January 06 2008 00:48 20thCenturyBoy wrote:On January 03 2008 06:47 IntoTheWow wrote:On January 03 2008 06:41 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On January 03 2008 06:31 IntoTheWow wrote:Flash... + Show Spoiler +5 raxed UpMagic yesterday. I hope he dies. Oh, right. I was watching his December games earlier and I didn't watch his ODT group. He 2-0'd it though, and I'd bet he could do that playing any which way. + Show Spoiler +Well, the first game luxury fucking 4 pooled him and lux played the other game like shit too. But won vs Shudder is what it seems it could be the worst game of 2008 already. Getting past his ODT group is not an accomplishment when shitty players and cheeses the only real contender, UpMagic. I agree with this 100% + Show Spoiler +Luxury has been showing some fairly notable play (i use those words loosly) but Flash pulled off his little bitch plays when Ups TvT is dominating. That game made me want to slap Flash in his baby face. oh please, stop hating flash. upmagic is known for his non-standard (aka cheese?) play. if upmagic had done the same thing would you have said "Luxury has been showing some fairly notable play (i use those words loosly) but Upmagic pulled off his little bitch plays when Flash's TvT is dominating. That game made me want to slap Upmagic in his baby face." ? The reason why people hate Flash is because he beat Bisu in the OSL. His builds were brilliant although many people fail to acknowlege that calling it "cheesy" due to their bias toward Bisu. I like both of these players. Flash, and Up are in the same category as Boxer and Casy (although Up's TvZ is utter crap unfortunately). They are the polar opposite of the hated generic macro terran so many of which have sprouted recently. No, people hate Flash because he failed to meet the lofty expectations that everyone had of him (he was 11-0 PvT or something at that time?), then rather than playing a straight up games, he cheesed two games in a row in a BO3 OSL match. Brilliant or not (subjective), they were definitely two all-in early game cheese builds (which is different from non-standard/proxy-builds that Boxer or Upmagic would pull). He has since regained some a lot of credit and I don't mind the guy at all. Sure they were. But they were the result of studying Bisu's game play and noticing the weaknesses. Bisu had been using a lot of of quick nexus based pvt builds. Flash simply designed the best build to counter it. This talent is what makes a player successful in indivdual leagues. Its also a talent players like Sea lack. Awesome macro + multitask will only get you so far.
Hmm? Bisu wasn't doing fast nexus builds back then very often. Also, in both of those games it was standard 1gate core builds that are pretty common to all Protoss. There were also no 5rax in-base builds. Maybe you are confusing another series? The reason why Flash's were all-in cheese builds (8/9 rax I believe) is because if they were scouted in time, it's a guaranteed loss for the Terran (forge/cannon up), but unscouted = almost guaranteed victory (both builds hit when exactly the first goon came out). I like watching Upmagic's games because while they're out of the box, he doesn't rely solely on his build-orders to win. He still has to earn his wins, and looks stylish while doing so.
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The 5 rax build comment was completely unrelated to Bisu. Was just an offhand comment regarding the Upmagic game. 1 gate core into nexus IS a fast expand build. I really dont need you to explain to me what an all in build is Thanks though. Flash doesn't rely solely on his build orders to win either. He just understands how to compare his odds of winning a straight up game to the odds of winning with a risky build designed to counter his opponent.
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I know, but he did rely 100% on BO in both of those games and that's where all that hate came from. It really didn't have much to do with Bisu, but mainly Flash's choice. 1 gate core is pretty standard build. Not necessarily fast expo, could mean fast robo, 2nd gate added later, etc. I personally never really disliked Flash, but cheesing two games in a row in any important series didn't earn any respect either.
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
On January 08 2008 12:41 teamsolid wrote:
I know, but he did in both those two games and that's where all that hate came from. It really didn't have much to do with Bisu, but mainly Flash's choice. 1 gate core is pretty standard build. Not necessarily fast expo, could mean fast robo, 2nd gate added later, etc. I personally never really disliked Flash, but cheesing two games in a row in any important series didn't earn any respect either.
Flash's choice was smart. He knew he was up against a strong clutch player but who was also vulnerable to all-in builds. Flash picked the best strategy and executed it perfectly. His choice was the best he could have made, and there is no shame in making the best/smartest choice. Now if Boxer was up against Bisu and bio rushed him twice people would be like "OMFG, what a brilliant play by Boxer, pure genius, this is why he is the Emperor. . . "etc. The whole "cheesy" Flash thing is actually becoming a negative stereotype. On the contrary, Up has the "stylish and creative" positive stereotype. Flash will recieve more hate than Up due to people's responses to these stereotypes.
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My general thoughts on Flash. I know a lot about him because of what he did to my favorite player Bisu. I was pissed when he didn't even beat GGPlay after taking out Bisu. However, I've gained a respect for Flash and like him now. Not many people will take the risks he does in games.
Was he lucky that those builds worked, yes. Did he know there was a fair chance of Bisu quick expanding, yes. Was his micro in those games good, yes (It looked good to me although I don't play at a high level).
He was lucky in the sense that Bisu just missed the scout in both games. On game 1 Flash barely, and I mean BARELY, held his ramp. On game 2 Bisu scouted the other 2 halls. In game 1 Bisu went 1 gate into Nexus. Flash struck while he was adding gates, he killed Bisu's 2 cannons as the warped in. In game 2 Bisu went 1 gate into proxy robo that failed. Not the best choices by Bisu, but Flash executed well.
He plays straight up much more now with the occasional cheese. I like Up two, though his style is not necessarily an "all in." Also, a note on the 5 rax, if he lost that game to Up he would still be in the final match, take that for what it's worth.
In short, I think Flash was overrated when he started out, but now he's underrated. He was knocked out of the MSL by Bisu and the OSL 2-1 of all people (10 health Nexus in game 3). Flash is in both starleagues again, and I believe he'll be a solid contender.
People will still whine about his cheeses and timing pushes, but imo that adds something fun to starcraft as oppossed to multi base macro wars (which are still ok most of the time).
I think when you judge a player like Flash or Up you should think to yourslelf "If Boxer did that would I be impressed or think it was creative). If so, appreciate from a new player.
End rant... Good list Steve, too bad you couldn't predict the future and see Savior dominate his ODT group or he'd be top 5 I'm guessing. There's gonna be a lot of change next month.
Also, if there was a group of people that compiled a power rank without any bias I'd participate because I like the idea. However, Steve is doing a great job like Etter before him.
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On January 08 2008 13:01 TheTyranid wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2008 12:41 teamsolid wrote:
I know, but he did in both those two games and that's where all that hate came from. It really didn't have much to do with Bisu, but mainly Flash's choice. 1 gate core is pretty standard build. Not necessarily fast expo, could mean fast robo, 2nd gate added later, etc. I personally never really disliked Flash, but cheesing two games in a row in any important series didn't earn any respect either. Flash's choice was smart. He knew he was up against a strong clutch player but who was also vulnerable to all-in builds. Flash picked the best strategy and executed it perfectly. His choice was the best he could have made, and there is no shame in making the best/smartest choice. Now if Boxer was up against Bisu and bio rushed him twice people would be like "OMFG, what a brilliant play by Boxer, pure genius, this is why he is the Emperor. . . "etc. The whole "cheesy" Flash thing is actually becoming a negative stereotype. On the contrary, Up has the "stylish and creative" positive stereotype. Flash will recieve more hate than Up due to people's responses to these stereotypes.
About Flash, yes it might've been a good choice for him, but it didn't make for any epic or exciting games. No shame, but no respect either.
About Boxer, it's a different story because he has done so many creative builds in the past that weren't all-in, so he now has the reputation of a strategical genius. When he pulls a cheesy all-in bunker rush against a weak Zerg like in a few pro-league games of the past, I just let it slide because it's Boxer. I've never been awed by these games either because they aren't new. However, very few if any, of the plays Boxer is best known for are all-in cheese builds (check Pimpest Plays 2002-2006). Just recently, his build used against Hiya and Ruby is a great example. That is just pure genius and IMO another Pimpest Play.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 08 2008 12:06 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2008 11:58 teamsolid wrote:On January 07 2008 08:58 TheTyranid wrote:On January 06 2008 14:06 LosingID8 wrote:On January 06 2008 00:48 20thCenturyBoy wrote:On January 03 2008 06:47 IntoTheWow wrote:On January 03 2008 06:41 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On January 03 2008 06:31 IntoTheWow wrote:Flash... + Show Spoiler +5 raxed UpMagic yesterday. I hope he dies. Oh, right. I was watching his December games earlier and I didn't watch his ODT group. He 2-0'd it though, and I'd bet he could do that playing any which way. + Show Spoiler +Well, the first game luxury fucking 4 pooled him and lux played the other game like shit too. But won vs Shudder is what it seems it could be the worst game of 2008 already. Getting past his ODT group is not an accomplishment when shitty players and cheeses the only real contender, UpMagic. I agree with this 100% + Show Spoiler +Luxury has been showing some fairly notable play (i use those words loosly) but Flash pulled off his little bitch plays when Ups TvT is dominating. That game made me want to slap Flash in his baby face. oh please, stop hating flash. upmagic is known for his non-standard (aka cheese?) play. if upmagic had done the same thing would you have said "Luxury has been showing some fairly notable play (i use those words loosly) but Upmagic pulled off his little bitch plays when Flash's TvT is dominating. That game made me want to slap Upmagic in his baby face." ? The reason why people hate Flash is because he beat Bisu in the OSL. His builds were brilliant although many people fail to acknowlege that calling it "cheesy" due to their bias toward Bisu. I like both of these players. Flash, and Up are in the same category as Boxer and Casy (although Up's TvZ is utter crap unfortunately). They are the polar opposite of the hated generic macro terran so many of which have sprouted recently. No, people hate Flash because he failed to meet the lofty expectations that everyone had of him (he was 11-0 PvT or something at that time?), then rather than playing a straight up games, he cheesed two games in a row in a BO3 OSL match. Brilliant or not (subjective), they were definitely two all-in early game cheese builds (which is different from non-standard/proxy-builds that Boxer or Upmagic would pull). He has since regained some a lot of credit and I don't mind the guy at all. Sure they were. But they were the result of studying Bisu's game play and noticing the weaknesses. Bisu had been using a lot of of quick nexus based pvt builds. Flash simply designed the best build to counter it. This talent is what makes a player successful in indivdual leagues. Its also a talent players like Sea lack. Awesome macro + multitask will only get you so far.
Sea doesn't play the same way every game. Don't you remember stuff like his hiden proxy 3rax against Nal_rA or his crazy mm/tank rush games on Python?
He does use the same build every game in TvZ though -_-;
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
On January 08 2008 13:29 teamsolid wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2008 13:01 TheTyranid wrote:On January 08 2008 12:41 teamsolid wrote:
I know, but he did in both those two games and that's where all that hate came from. It really didn't have much to do with Bisu, but mainly Flash's choice. 1 gate core is pretty standard build. Not necessarily fast expo, could mean fast robo, 2nd gate added later, etc. I personally never really disliked Flash, but cheesing two games in a row in any important series didn't earn any respect either. Flash's choice was smart. He knew he was up against a strong clutch player but who was also vulnerable to all-in builds. Flash picked the best strategy and executed it perfectly. His choice was the best he could have made, and there is no shame in making the best/smartest choice. Now if Boxer was up against Bisu and bio rushed him twice people would be like "OMFG, what a brilliant play by Boxer, pure genius, this is why he is the Emperor. . . "etc. The whole "cheesy" Flash thing is actually becoming a negative stereotype. On the contrary, Up has the "stylish and creative" positive stereotype. Flash will recieve more hate than Up due to people's responses to these stereotypes. About Flash, yes it might've been a good choice for him, but it didn't make for any epic or exciting games. No shame, but no respect either. About Boxer, it's a different story because he has done so many creative builds in the past that weren't all-in, so he now has the reputation of a strategical genius. When he pulls a cheesy all-in bunker rush against a weak Zerg like in a few pro-league games of the past, I just let it slide because it's Boxer. I've never been awed by these games either because they aren't new. However, very few if any, of the plays Boxer is best known for are all-in cheese builds (check Pimpest Plays 2002-2006). Just recently, his build used against Hiya and Ruby is a great example. That is just pure genius and IMO another Pimpest Play.
True, they were not pretty games but don't stereotype and hate on a player based on 2 games.
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
On January 08 2008 13:32 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2008 12:06 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:On January 08 2008 11:58 teamsolid wrote:On January 07 2008 08:58 TheTyranid wrote:On January 06 2008 14:06 LosingID8 wrote:On January 06 2008 00:48 20thCenturyBoy wrote:On January 03 2008 06:47 IntoTheWow wrote:On January 03 2008 06:41 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On January 03 2008 06:31 IntoTheWow wrote:Flash... + Show Spoiler +5 raxed UpMagic yesterday. I hope he dies. Oh, right. I was watching his December games earlier and I didn't watch his ODT group. He 2-0'd it though, and I'd bet he could do that playing any which way. + Show Spoiler +Well, the first game luxury fucking 4 pooled him and lux played the other game like shit too. But won vs Shudder is what it seems it could be the worst game of 2008 already. Getting past his ODT group is not an accomplishment when shitty players and cheeses the only real contender, UpMagic. I agree with this 100% + Show Spoiler +Luxury has been showing some fairly notable play (i use those words loosly) but Flash pulled off his little bitch plays when Ups TvT is dominating. That game made me want to slap Flash in his baby face. oh please, stop hating flash. upmagic is known for his non-standard (aka cheese?) play. if upmagic had done the same thing would you have said "Luxury has been showing some fairly notable play (i use those words loosly) but Upmagic pulled off his little bitch plays when Flash's TvT is dominating. That game made me want to slap Upmagic in his baby face." ? The reason why people hate Flash is because he beat Bisu in the OSL. His builds were brilliant although many people fail to acknowlege that calling it "cheesy" due to their bias toward Bisu. I like both of these players. Flash, and Up are in the same category as Boxer and Casy (although Up's TvZ is utter crap unfortunately). They are the polar opposite of the hated generic macro terran so many of which have sprouted recently. No, people hate Flash because he failed to meet the lofty expectations that everyone had of him (he was 11-0 PvT or something at that time?), then rather than playing a straight up games, he cheesed two games in a row in a BO3 OSL match. Brilliant or not (subjective), they were definitely two all-in early game cheese builds (which is different from non-standard/proxy-builds that Boxer or Upmagic would pull). He has since regained some a lot of credit and I don't mind the guy at all. Sure they were. But they were the result of studying Bisu's game play and noticing the weaknesses. Bisu had been using a lot of of quick nexus based pvt builds. Flash simply designed the best build to counter it. This talent is what makes a player successful in indivdual leagues. Its also a talent players like Sea lack. Awesome macro + multitask will only get you so far. Sea doesn't play the same way every game. Don't you remember stuff like his hiden proxy 3rax against Nal_rA or his crazy mm/tank rush games on Python? He does use the same build every game in TvZ though -_-;
Can't forget the mnm running down Boxers mech defence on 815.
Btw does Sea always go SK Terran in TvZ? I rarely see him with tanks. Someone should go hydra/lurk/plague heavy defilers on him. 
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Savior will OWN them all!
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I would like to see sAviOr vs Jaedong in OSL Finals and sAviOr vs Bisu in MSL Finals at some point in 08.
Of course I would want sAviOr to win both.
P.S. sAviOr at #7 behind mind much and sea isn't right ><
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Jaedong approaching iloveoov status of 2004.
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On January 09 2008 03:17 ssj100 wrote:
Jaedong approaching iloveoov status of 2004.
I don't know about that, but he's got to be the favorite against almost anyone he plays... except for sheis.
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Man, Sheis better not be to Jaedong what Bisu is to sAviOr 
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On January 08 2008 07:39 boghat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2008 07:12 ._. wrote:
Dunno if I should post this here but I think there should be two forms of ranking, like one where the fakesteve makes one, and one that is made up of a voting consensus from the tl community. And we could put them head to head for comparison. Would be great. People would just vote for their favorite players every time. And most people on here probably don't even watch that many VODs. It sounds nice at first but it would just be a waste of people's time and effort to make a list that's meaningless.
What about like the top 1-25 Liquidbetters casting their positions? Surely they should have some individualized insight and watched plenty of vods to get them that far.
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On January 09 2008 15:36 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:Man, Sheis better not be to Jaedong what Bisu is to sAviOr
Haha, I don't think Jaedong will have to worry about meeting Sheis in individual leagues... at least not for a while. Sheis has a monstrous tvz, but his other matchups aren't quite up to par.
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Very Good Xellos, Terran ForEver and Ever
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EPT
