EPTShould Daedalus Point be removed from the map pool?
| Forum Index > Polls & Liquibet |
|
Maegi
Finland174 Posts
| ||
|
Split Behemoth
France104 Posts
| ||
|
Maegi
Finland174 Posts
| ||
|
Devise
Canada1131 Posts
On January 25 2014 00:19 Maegi wrote: This poll is kinda flawed, it doesn't give any sort of time frame. Should it be removed for next season? IMO yes. Should blizzard terminate it immediately with extreme prejudice? No This is what I was thinking as well. I voted Yes, because I do think it shouldn't stay for a long time. but to just remove it mid season I don't agree with. | ||
|
AlternativeEgo
Sweden17309 Posts
| ||
|
JacobShock
Denmark2485 Posts
| ||
|
ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3209 Posts
| ||
|
Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
In this meta however it is very unbalanced and I don't think it should be forced to be played in tournaments as important as code A this suddenly but I also think its important to keep evolving the scene. With maps like these early game aggression or all ins would be more logical then macro builds which the meta game is leaning towards at the moment. I think a good direction for SC2 to go is to more towards playing the map than only playing the matchup. Protoss are having a hard time because they are used to just a few openers that lets them be safe (MSC!) and then branch out towards many different builds. Their standard starts don't work on daedelous though and that means loads of their builds cant be used or has to be tweaked big time. To that adds that no one knows how to really open "safe but greedy" like protoss has learned to do on most other maps. I think this is exactly what sc2 needs, maps where people no longer knows how to open or rather maps where its very unforgiving to just play like you do on all other maps, you NEED to evolve your play. | ||
|
DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On January 25 2014 01:36 Shuffleblade wrote: I think the current meta has evolved from strategies that has been viable on standard maps. If all the previous maps would have had ramps like that then the small ramped maps would have been called unfair for zerg. P and T has developed strategies and a meta where they wall off because it was viable on those maps, I myself feel the zerg has had to evolve to handle the unfairness of being unable to wall in like other races previously. In this meta however it is very unbalanced and I don't think it should be forced to be played in tournaments as important as code A this suddenly but I also think its important to keep evolving the scene. With maps like these early game aggression or all ins would be more logical then macro builds which the meta game is leaning towards at the moment. I think a good direction for SC2 to go is to more towards playing the map than only playing the matchup. Protoss are having a hard time because they are used to just a few openers that lets them be safe (MSC!) and then branch out towards many different builds. Their standard starts don't work on daedelous though and that means loads of their builds cant be used or has to be tweaked big time. To that adds that no one knows how to really open "safe but greedy" like protoss has learned to do on most other maps. I think this is exactly what sc2 needs, maps where people no longer knows how to open or rather maps where its very unforgiving to just play like you do on all other maps, you NEED to evolve your play. On any other map I'd agree with you, but in PvZ in Daedalus point, you are wrong. There is nothing Protoss can do short of offensive walling / extreme 1 base cheese to win. And as soon as Zergs figured that out, they won almost every game on that map. | ||
|
CrazyF1r3f0x
United States2120 Posts
Crazy maps are fun! | ||
|
MrMatt
Canada225 Posts
| ||
|
Buddy168
United States157 Posts
On January 25 2014 05:13 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote: No! Crazy maps are fun! | ||
|
robson1
3632 Posts
Daedalus is dumb. Having a stupid ramp that just breaks 1 matchup is not crazy or fun. | ||
|
CrazyF1r3f0x
United States2120 Posts
| ||
|
FlukyS
Ireland485 Posts
| ||
|
DBS
515 Posts
On January 25 2014 00:01 Maegi wrote: I really think having non standard maps is a very good thing, and even if Daedalus is not everyone's favorite map blizzard should continue trying out different types of maps. Have you watched code A? It's just not fair to the players. | ||
|
HououinKyouma
Australia152 Posts
| ||
|
ErrantKnight
Switzerland186 Posts
| ||
|
sOvrn
United States678 Posts
| ||
|
Rokevo
Finland1033 Posts
| ||
|
Grobyc
Canada18410 Posts
| ||
|
Abidus
Belgium8 Posts
Edit: Like so http://imgur.com/516OUm5 Sorry for the size but couldn't find a bigger picture of Daedalus. | ||
|
Chiyosuke
United States51 Posts
| ||
|
jekku
Canada1640 Posts
| ||
|
Pandain
United States12989 Posts
| ||
|
felisconcolori
United States6168 Posts
Is it great for Protoss the way we've all been playing it since it became okay to expand after the beta? No. Is it absolutely insurmountable? I don't know. I'm not a professional player - maybe someone can figure out something new. + Show Spoiler + I'm open to the idea that, no, there's no way. But since not every race needs to wall off, maybe Protoss can find a way to be safe and not wall off too. They do have some pretty strong tools at their disposal, between FF and Photon Overcharge. I just don't know enough of Protoss at that level, and I don't know that anyone has been really looking. After all, DP can be veto'd into oblivion in most tournaments and wide ramps aren't the norm. | ||
|
Drake
Germany6146 Posts
| ||
|
trada
Germany347 Posts
| ||
banjoetheredskin
United States744 Posts
| ||
|
vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
It's high time Blizzard looked for map features that improve gameplay without making things completely imbalanced. They try way too many tweaks to encourage different tactics/strategies that people aren't interested in, but if something turns out to be poowerful, everybody whine about such metagame change. I love how maps had a huge impact on strategy/tactics in wc3. They could even be used to balance things to a certain extent, and you could even tweak your own patterns and builds to your liking. But all I see in sc2 is Blizzard coming up with retarded maps that make the map pool worse each season. I wish they would start developing wc4, because apparently all they can do is make sc2 worse nowadays. | ||
|
imre
France9263 Posts
| ||
|
sixfour
England11061 Posts
On January 25 2014 05:13 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote: No! Crazy maps are fun! basically this. unless the map is fundamentally imbalanced, if you can't adapt your game to something other than daybreak v27.0, then try doing so rather than crying about it. | ||
|
Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
Maps are made to encourage different play and strategic choices on different maps, at this time the maps do not really force that but its probably what we need for the scene. I do think its unfair for it to be in the pool of code A this fast without letting players have time to actually get used to it but I also don't think its good to put it in a place where its just auto vetoed. Myself I'm a scrub gold-plat level player but I've never vetoed a map on ladder, thats because I know that just playing within my comfort zone and removing the sitautions I have the most problems with won't help my growth as a player. Keep the map and make even more outrageus ones please, if there is a map where one race is totally unbeatable that should logically be mostly a balance issue and not a map issue. | ||
|
ethox
Finland57 Posts
| ||
|
Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
| ||
|
Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On January 27 2014 21:45 Grumbels wrote: I don't think that you can use narrow ramps for several years and balance the game around that and then expect to be fine when you have a map with a wider ramp. That's like having a map without a close-by natural expansion and saying that people shouldn't care about balance issues that pop up. They don't balance the game around that, the players tailor their playstyle according to that. What, you think marines would do more/less damage if it was a wider ramp at release on most maps? =P | ||
|
3clipse
Canada2555 Posts
| ||
|
Apfelfrisch
Germany2 Posts
On January 27 2014 21:52 Shuffleblade wrote: I would expect that Blizzard is more creative than that, maybe the Bunker has lager range etc. but the maps have shurely a bearing on the balance.They don't balance the game around that, the players tailor their playstyle according to that. What, you think marines would do more/less damage if it was a wider ramp at release on most maps? =P | ||
|
Thor.Rush
Sweden702 Posts
| ||
|
Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On January 27 2014 23:39 Apfelfrisch wrote: I would expect that Blizzard is more creative than that, maybe the Bunker has lager range etc. but the maps have shurely a bearing on the balance. You got it the wrong way around, I doubt Blizz goes "hmm zerg is too strong on daedelous so I guess we boost attack range and damage on photon cannon" =P Blizz don't do balance patches based around a specific map but if you see the same problem consistently throughout many maps they might because then its a general balance issue and not a map issue. Herp derp 9pool doesn't work effectively on Alterzim Stronghold against P please balance patch.... Players adapt their builds to the maps and use what tools they have and a map without a close-by natural expansion sounds like a decent idea to stir up the meta good thought. The problems that would appear wojuld however not be balance related they would be "people figuring out what builds work against what" oriented. | ||
|
Damnight
Germany222 Posts
| ||
|
GinDo
3327 Posts
EDIT: Better yet, scrap the map, bring back Metalopolis. | ||
|
HeeroFX
United States2704 Posts
| ||
|
tili
United States1332 Posts
I think yes, but Daedalus is a bit extreme. If the ramp was just a liiiiittle smaller, it'd be better imo. But, it should definitely be left on ladder, people can down ore if they want. Alterzim is blessed terrible for rush play. | ||
|
aLt_F4tw
Canada47 Posts
| ||
|
Quixotic_tv
Germany130 Posts
Pro players do not want the meta game to become more variant, as Idra said on chanman. It was about Starbow, and he said, never ask pro players about balance. He is right in my opinion. Back to the poll: I would like to have another option: "Do not remove it but bring in more variant maps", e.g. a map where expanding is harder than normal (I am playing Zerg btw.), an air only map like archipelago. Maybe it will encourage all ins for a time, but in the long run it will pay off. SC2's last AddOn is not even out, we need experimenting a lot. As well it would make balancing easier if more meta option would be tried out. Also players with good mechanics would have an advantage over "meta abusers". So, I would like to have a wild jungle of weird maps that are not similar to each other in any way. | ||
|
HeeroFX
United States2704 Posts
On January 28 2014 17:52 papalion wrote: The problem imo is that maps in SC2 are too similar to each other, not too different. If then a like DP hits the map pool, it seems to be a big deal, but in fact it is a too "small" deal. I hope you get me in this point. Pro players do not want the meta game to become more variant, as Idra said on chanman. It was about Starbow, and he said, never ask pro players about balance. He is right in my opinion. Back to the poll: I would like to have another option: "Do not remove it but bring in more variant maps", e.g. a map where expanding is harder than normal (I am playing Zerg btw.), an air only map like archipelago. Maybe it will encourage all ins for a time, but in the long run it will pay off. SC2's last AddOn is not even out, we need experimenting a lot. As well it would make balancing easier if more meta option would be tried out. Also players with good mechanics would have an advantage over "meta abusers". So, I would like to have a wild jungle of weird maps that are not similar to each other in any way. I think blizzard is walking a fine line with how they build a map pool. They want them to work for the pros but they don't want them to be too different for casual players. I know when I boot up SC 2 there are things that I can do on a map because in my mind there is a standard way maps are designed. | ||
|
Sprouter
United States1724 Posts
| ||
|
Lunarweasel
United States8 Posts
| ||
|
EJK
United States1302 Posts
| ||
|
FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
| ||
|
Meavis
Netherlands1300 Posts
| ||
|
AKnopf
Germany259 Posts
On January 26 2014 04:29 Rokevo wrote: I'm all for a diverse map pool, but Daedalus is an abomination that needs to be put down. Thanks for putting it that way. I agree 100% (random player here) | ||
|
Glioburd
France1911 Posts
| ||
Shellshock
United States97276 Posts
| ||
|
Solar424
United States4001 Posts
| ||
|
moofang
508 Posts
| ||
|
Terranist
United States2496 Posts
| ||
|
ArTiFaKs
United States1229 Posts
| ||
|
Butterz
688 Posts
On January 25 2014 22:01 ErrantKnight wrote: Don't remove Daedulus ! I can finally go for wierd 1 base terran builds ! 12 gas into 2 port banshee ! lol yes im thinking 3 thor attack with marines smth like that in gold :D | ||
|
ArTiFaKs
United States1229 Posts
| ||
| ||
