EPTHave the recent tournament results changed your opinion on…
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
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rift
1819 Posts
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diverzee
Sweden992 Posts
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Swiv
Germany3674 Posts
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Al Bundy
7257 Posts
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Beaza
Germany203 Posts
-No and im not a whiner -No and im still a whiner I think its balanced and have thought so before | ||
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Drolla
United Kingdom389 Posts
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Warpath
Canada1242 Posts
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LittLeD
Sweden7973 Posts
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VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
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JustLikeThat
Russian Federation2 Posts
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CeriseCherries
6170 Posts
 I guess toss could be doing a little better in GSL, but they are doing fine out of korea | ||
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red4ce
United States7313 Posts
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OmnIMinD
Netherlands9 Posts
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setzer
United States3284 Posts
1) much lower in the tech tree compared to other races 2) much cheaper to get out compared to other races 3) has two abilities that don't require much energy for how strong they are Until Blizzard fixes fundamental problems relating to the balance of caster units (and a few other units in the game) I still see the racial balance widely switching between races each time Blizzard "fixes" something else. | ||
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Sina92
Sweden1303 Posts
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NuKedUFirst
Canada3139 Posts
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TheBomb
237 Posts
It also reafirms my thoughts that Protoss is the weakest race at the moment and that they need a bit of buffs to get back in the game. It makes sense to balance the game for Korea as that is where the best players play and the fact that no protoss has been able to do any good just shows that at the highest levels of play protoss are no doubt the weaker race. | ||
KristofferAG
Norway25712 Posts
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TemplarCo.
Mexico2870 Posts
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mrRoflpwn
United States2618 Posts
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Darclite
United States1021 Posts
I'm happy to see Protoss getting farther in tournaments, but I want to see a win, hopefully we'll see something from Huk today. It's a bit less frustrating I'll admit, there are fewer games where it just felt like "lol ok SURREE this game is balanced." Still, I want to see a win. | ||
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Archie_Lewis
Czech Republic87 Posts
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green.at
Austria1459 Posts
On October 17 2011 05:06 mrRoflpwn wrote: protoss is still weak protoss is fine, protoss player on the other hand ..... | ||
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yeowan123
2 Posts
User was banned for this post. | ||
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Atlas247
Canada318 Posts
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seiplo
Sweden25 Posts
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Synwave
United States2803 Posts
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Despote
Canada2 Posts
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Thebbeuttiffulland
Brazil288 Posts
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Gackt_
335 Posts
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Darclite
United States1021 Posts
On October 17 2011 05:40 Despote wrote: People will say protoss is underpower, and I'll tell them that this is only because protoss are using only gateway units. I know, people should get carriers, motherships, void rays, and colossi! Like Hongun did! Before getting utterly raped... Sorry, but the reason they are used so much is because our higher tech units are pretty dependent on the tanking of zealots and archons, the usefulness of sentries, and the versatility of stalkers. Unfortunately, these units don't do much damage and scale pretty poorly with upgrades (except archons). They also need to tank for colossi. They are also more mobile due to warp. They need to be the dominant part of the army. Also, ONLY gateway units? I've seen at least 10 colossi, 10 immortals, a few warp prisms (which have appeared in many games lately), five phoenixes, five void rays, five carriers, and two motherships in the past 10 pro games I've watched. People need to stop having the one-size-fits-all solution for a race's struggles. If you knew better than the pros, you'd probably be a pro. If you were right, the pros would have figured it out. | ||
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MrMotionPicture
United States4327 Posts
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GhostNova
Germany42 Posts
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Supert0fu
United States499 Posts
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TheTurk
United States732 Posts
Andway, I still very stongly believe Zerg players win tournaments only because they are so much more skilled than their Terran counterparts. They have to be in order to compensate for the balance, and then some. | ||
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thOr6136
Slovenia1774 Posts
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
It doesn't even mean anything! | ||
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DrBoo
Canada1177 Posts
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namste
Finland2292 Posts
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Dbla08
United States211 Posts
Figuring out what people think that vote No will be very hard because.. -No and im not a whiner -No and im still a whiner I think its balanced and have thought so before interesting thought, and if you (albeit arbitrarily and without any real backing other than that it seems to work) figure that to be a roughly 50-50 split between those that answered No, there'd be a nearly even spread between the 4 answers | ||
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TelecoM
United States10664 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
This tournament confirmed that more than changed it. | ||
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gentile
Switzerland594 Posts
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Fus
Sweden1112 Posts
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WebsblobTwo
13 Posts
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dashmode
60 Posts
Also, I cannot believe how maps are underrated in balance discussions and maps are imo main reason why zerg is doing so well lately. | ||
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ComusLoM
Norway3547 Posts
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Tsuki.eu
Portugal1049 Posts
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Marksofshame
Canada41 Posts
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Oreo7
United States1647 Posts
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FlamingTurd
United States1059 Posts
Whenever I saw either of those 2 strategies used while watching the couple hundred games over the weekend they ended in a victory against the Zerg player like 80% of the time. The few times that I saw the Z defend it they were typically too behind to make a serious comeback. The times I saw the Z win it happened when the T or P clearly made a mistake. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On October 17 2011 07:30 Oreo7 wrote: The Sase puma series hurt my feelings. This. As long as that kind of thing happens all the time (thank you for that Puma), Protoss will remain weak to my eyes. Although, if all races decide to play macro fair and square, I think it's pretty balanced. Early game protoss is just too fragile. And one base terran too strong. | ||
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LHR
Canada81 Posts
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NexCa
Germany954 Posts
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sjschmidt93
United States2518 Posts
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Raambo11
United States828 Posts
On October 17 2011 05:35 green.at wrote: protoss is fine, protoss player on the other hand ..... Protoss players learn't how to deal with terran, 1-1-1 was never op, nothing Terran players has is, people slowly learn to adapt every time there is QQ and its happening again. | ||
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XRaDiiX
Canada1730 Posts
TvP Protoss a little bit underpowered if Terran Micros well. (But Recent Tournament Results)(Fast double Forged Builds) Changed my mind a bit... i'm starting to think its more balanced. Then we have TvZ.. I think TvZ is definitely the most Balanced Match-up by Far. | ||
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ChewbroCColi
Denmark108 Posts
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tsuxiit
1305 Posts
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Yaki
France4234 Posts
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Resilient
United Kingdom1431 Posts
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WickedSkies
Netherlands81 Posts
On October 17 2011 04:14 Talin wrote: No, the game is fine. No, the game is heavily favoring zerg. | ||
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Yergidy
United States2107 Posts
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deathly rat
United Kingdom911 Posts
It is patently obvious that zerg has no options vs terran in the early game and can only hope to defend against a wide variety of aggression, harass and all ins. There is no unit combination for Z to effeciently fight vs colosus based deathball. Ghosts are good against everything protoss and zerg have. Hellions are cheap but potentially game ending. Don't ever mention any of this though. | ||
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FishBones
Australia195 Posts
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MyTHicaL
France1070 Posts
On October 17 2011 09:27 deathly rat wrote: You can't say anything about balance on TL without being accussed of whining or having the thread closed. It is patently obvious that zerg has no options vs terran in the early game and can only hope to defend against a wide variety of aggression, harass and all ins. There is no unit combination for Z to effeciently fight vs colosus based deathball. Ghosts are good against everything protoss and zerg have. Hellions are cheap but potentially game ending. Don't ever mention any of this though. You're actually complaining about imbalance towards zerg? rofl.... I'm saying this as a random player... U actually made me laugh xd. | ||
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Nick_54
United States2230 Posts
Huk and MC showed that played the right way protoss is no weaker than the other 2 races at the highest levels today. If a player losers they got outplayed, enough said. | ||
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kilergrunt
United States263 Posts
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Apollo_Shards
1210 Posts
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The Final Boss
United States1839 Posts
On October 17 2011 04:40 TheBomb wrote: No. I always thought Zerg is the most powerful race and that they just didn't have good enough players to show it apart from Nestea and recently its been shown that zerg are way too powerful when played at its best. It also reafirms my thoughts that Protoss is the weakest race at the moment and that they need a bit of buffs to get back in the game. It makes sense to balance the game for Korea as that is where the best players play and the fact that no protoss has been able to do any good just shows that at the highest levels of play protoss are no doubt the weaker race. The problem with Korea isn't balance, it's the way that GSL has been set up and the fact that the rankings are still loosely based upon how well people were doing a year ago (back when Terran was, the strongest race). It's really difficult to get through Code A and get into Code S--however, it isn't impossible. Puzzle, for instance, was a really great player who was not in Code S until his run through Code A. I understand that you want to balance the game for Korea (and I understand your argument), but I think that the main reason isn't because Terran is that much better, but rather that the Korean Terran metagame is more developed than that of any other race. Outside of Korea, the various strategies and styles have developed at about the same pace for each race, and frankly the distribution of winners of tournaments has been pretty balanced, with a slight favor to Protoss players winning it (excluding Koreans, I feel like I see more Protoss players ranking high such as White-Ra, HuK, NaNiwa, MaNa, ect.). Korea, on the other hand is totally different. First you have tournaments filled with Terran players because half of them qualified to be there six months to an entire year ago and have scraped by to stay in. The other reason for the huge number of great Terran players is because you have houses like SlayerS and IM that are these huge congregations of mostly Terran players. Namely, the SlayerS house seems to consistently come up with new innovative styles that are so fresh and new when used in tournaments, that nobody has any real idea how to handle them (aka MLG Anaheim...). Personally, I think the game was pretty balanced back before the Blue Flame Hellion and Barracks time nerfs, but now Terran is slightly weaker (but not too much so). I think that Blizzard needs to give more time to new strategies, rather than nerfing them the second that they win a major tournament (Reaper speed, Thor cannons, Blue Flame Hellions, ect.  ). I think that with the latest patch, while Terrans will still win in Korea, outside of Korea we're not going to see many Terrans win tournaments other than those who have stayed in Korea.Overall though I think the game is pretty balanced, and recent results haven't really changed my view. | ||
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ThisGS
Germany255 Posts
I didnt expect protoss to be able to top 2 (the bracket for both couldve been harder, but they were not easy, just standard prolly) with MKP, Bomber, thestc and polt in the tournament. Although i believe neither MC nor HuK wouldve been able to beat Bomber, i gained some faith in the race i play again. | ||
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omarjuul
Netherlands7 Posts
On October 17 2011 05:35 green.at wrote: protoss is fine, protoss player on the other hand ..... Okay so every progamer that plays protoss just happens to be weaker or train less than his zerg or terran buddies? I chose 'a little' as (spoilers about MLG Orlando) + Show Spoiler + seeing 2 protosses in the finals tonight made me believe they actually still have some power. HuK made StG look so weak in the match on Antiga Shipyard especially, imho. | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
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ptrpb
Canada753 Posts
Terran still too versatile Protoss still too rigid and fragile | ||
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black3200
Canada74 Posts
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uThermal
Netherlands165 Posts
On October 17 2011 09:27 deathly rat wrote: You can't say anything about balance on TL without being accussed of whining or having the thread closed. It is patently obvious that zerg has no options vs terran in the early game and can only hope to defend against a wide variety of aggression, harass and all ins. There is no unit combination for Z to effeciently fight vs colosus based deathball. Ghosts are good against everything protoss and zerg have. Hellions are cheap but potentially game ending. Don't ever mention any of this though. i wonder what race u play | ||
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Archeon
3252 Posts
On October 17 2011 10:05 ThisGS wrote: A little bit. I didnt expect protoss to be able to top 2 (the bracket for both couldve been harder, but they were not easy, just standard prolly) with MKP, Bomber, thestc and polt in the tournament. Although i believe neither MC nor HuK wouldve been able to beat Bomber, i gained some faith in the race i play again. pretty much my opinion too. quite surprising that Bomber lost one match to each race (wtf, SaSe?), but apart from that polt, thestc and MKP are only the bottom half of the code-s-terrans. i dont think that you can decide overall balance when one of the best, if not the best current playing P wins the tournament, if like the 8 most successive Ts and 3 most successive Zs arent even participating. but it increases the impression that toss is coming back, so i voted a little bit. | ||
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Bear4188
United States1797 Posts
It is the ever evolving strategies and apparent effectiveness or futility of them across many games which decides my opinions on balance. | ||
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GenesisX
Canada4267 Posts
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Imdabossg
United States3 Posts
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Gbaby
United States2 Posts
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Trsjnica
United States477 Posts
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Doof
United States204 Posts
I think there is a fundamental problem with the game balance as it stands. The problem is, of course, Terran. As a race, they are not only the best at being defensive, they are also the most flexible when it comes to tech. Siege mode and PFs make bases impenetrable to a HUGE variety of ground-based attacks. Bunkers are really good, salvageable, and require only a barracks to construct (Toss must have forge for our static D). Furthermore, Terran tech, due to the add-on mechanic, is extremely flexible. It's quite easy for them to swap reactors and tech labs to get out the exact right composition that they need. Combine this with the fact that they have the best ability to be defensive, and Terran can have the perfect composition in nearly every fight they choose to engage in. Zerg is, of course, even more flexible than Terran in this regard, but the simple fact remains that Zerg units are (by design) weaker than Terran units. That's just how The Swarm operates. Meanwhile Protoss is so inflexible in their tech that once their chosen tech is sufficiently countered, they're no threat until they can get up another form of an advantage. No one is playing perfectly right now (Nestea and MVP are damn close, though), and until players get near perfect, the true balance of the game can't be seen. All we have to go on is theorycrafting, and theoretically, I dont' see any way either of the other races can beat a Terran in a game where neither player makes mistakes. | ||
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mumming
Faroe Islands256 Posts
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clanbrown
United States9 Posts
1.4 did very little to help balance this game but people will credit the patch so they dont have to admit their favorite player is/was playing bad | ||
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dgwow
Canada1024 Posts
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sciberbia
United States1359 Posts
Just wanna note a fact about the Boxer v. Idra series: Boxer's record when doing a proxy 2-rax: 3-0 (metal counts) Boxer's record when not proxying: 0-4 | ||
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Angra
United States2652 Posts
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TBone-
United States2309 Posts
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docvoc
United States5491 Posts
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ExorArgus
Canada46 Posts
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JACCUZISPLAT
Uzbekistan76 Posts
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Graham
Canada1259 Posts
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darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
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ComusLoM
Norway3547 Posts
On October 17 2011 11:56 ExorArgus wrote: I see people saying that protoss are still "underpowered" not only did a protoss win MLG. But it was a PvP finals... Yeah because that actually means anything. Both players only beat a few terrans and balance can't be judged on a few series. Because there was basically an all Protoss group this was bound to happen. Also Huk and MC are the best protosses of all time, MC has been out of form but he's actually won a GSL (two infact) which is more than any other protoss can say. What we saw at MLG were two protosses overcoming the current imbalance by massively outplaying their opponents in a very limited amount of games. Protoss is losing far too much to Terran and Zerg in silly ways. Protoss is far too fragile and far to cost ineffective against terran, and far too impotent against zerg. | ||
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AusBox
Australia214 Posts
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Zebrapudding
United States66 Posts
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bittman
Australia8759 Posts
That and ghosts. Other recent tournament results show MVP being unbeatable, MKP winning a tournament, MMA seemingly becoming hard to beat and Taeja making ELO points look like a joke. So despite four recent zerg wins and now 1 protoss win, yeah toss ain't suddenly looking part of the crowd. I do think the patch has definitely helped though. | ||
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iiGreetings
Canada563 Posts
On October 17 2011 05:40 Despote wrote: People will say protoss is underpower, and I'll tell them that this is only because protoss are using only gateway units. You my friend, are a smart man. tbh i think that the meta-game will evolve. Zergs are playing really well because they had to go through hell to play against these races when they where alot alot stronger. i still think some things about terran are kinda rediculous. Marine. | ||
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woobsauce
United States491 Posts
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thingULTRA
United States48 Posts
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Harpolean
United Kingdom40 Posts
Personally, I don't think anyone apart from the Top level of players can really comment about balance, because commenting about balance in a Bronze league game is completely different from balance in a GSL Final for example, In bronze its easy for a Zerg to say that terran is imbalanced because in a 1 on 1 non- microed fight 100 lings (2 per marine ofc!) will loose to 50 marines, and by non-microed I mean the simple A + MOVE. Whereas at a higher level of play 100 lings could quite easy destroy 50 marines with the right surround. My point is that different levels of play have different issues of balance and imbalance and that its hard to comment on balance as a non pro because well... you cant. (Without sounding harsh) I could argue that terran is overpowered vs zerg because they have a large amount of 1 base variety and if my overlord doesnt get into his base i have no idea what going on without either preparing for everything (which puts me behind) or just loosing when it inevitably hits. I could argue zerg is imbalanced as protoss because they can build nothing until they see what i go for and then spam the unit which they need, not to mention they can remax quicker than any other race at an endgame situation. I could argue protoss is imbalanced vs terran because.... Oh wait i cant (Joke!) But hopefully you see what I mean! Its both hard to comment on imbalance at a non- pro level of gaming and also hard to say if something really is "imbalanced" because the counter might simply not be found yet or your playing it wrong. (However to note: I think ghosts need a minor nerf, no idea what lol but something) | ||
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Xaga
United States163 Posts
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iamcaustic
Canada1509 Posts
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
Emerged same way. If player skill doesn't trump major imbalances, we would see race hegemony or exclusion from Top8's and finals for a sustained period of time. There is not any, and I continue to like how well Blizzard has maintained their game up till this point (with recent patch changes being quite more in tune with same-core-game minor-tweaks-and-fixes). | ||
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TuRbii
United States38 Posts
But, recent outcomes have not changed how I feel about that. | ||
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pezit
Sweden302 Posts
And no, recent tournament results didn't change my view on things at all. | ||
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FusionMrWet
United States121 Posts
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tredogz
Canada170 Posts
obviously I play zerg | ||
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FusionMrWet
United States121 Posts
On October 17 2011 14:15 tredogz wrote: Toss is OP, has been OP and will REMAIN OP... obviously I play zerg I kind of agree with you in a way. Let me explain.First off, i play toss. Terran is super strong vs protoss, which is why they need things like FF, blink, and colossi (often things zerg players complain about) to be able to keep up with terran. Because abilities cant be taken out from match-up to match-up, the things that are necessary in pvt, are really strong in pvz. Idk if anyone agrees with me, thats just my opinon | ||
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Harpolean
United Kingdom40 Posts
On October 17 2011 14:22 FusionMrWet wrote: I kind of agree with you in a way. Let me explain.First off, i play toss. Terran is super strong vs protoss, which is why they need things like FF, blink, and colossi (often things zerg players complain about) to be able to keep up with terran. Because abilities cant be taken out from match-up to match-up, the things that are necessary in pvt, are really strong in pvz. Idk if anyone agrees with me, thats just my opinon I think a protoss without forcefield would loose to a zerg who goes speedling/baneling 100% of the time lol. Or at least be contained into his base until colossus tech which sorta negates all gateway pushes. | ||
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FusionMrWet
United States121 Posts
On October 17 2011 14:24 Harpolean wrote: I think a protoss without forcefield would loose to a zerg who goes speedling/baneling 100% of the time lol. Or at least be contained into his base until colossus tech which sorta negates all gateway pushes. True, idk i always felt that toss is pretty damn good vs zerg, terran is good vs toss, and zerg is good vs terran, some would say thats balanced, but its not balanced if one race is only good vs one race(excluding mirrors obv). Complete balance would be like the american government, 3 branches, and all have the same power, none of them over rule the other, and starcraft 2 is not at that level- | ||
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Mykill
Canada3402 Posts
On October 17 2011 06:28 Klive5ive wrote: This is just a troll-poll. It doesn't even mean anything! agreed | ||
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Harpolean
United Kingdom40 Posts
On October 17 2011 14:30 FusionMrWet wrote: True, idk i always felt that toss is pretty damn good vs zerg, terran is good vs toss, and zerg is good vs terran, some would say thats balanced, but its not balanced if one race is only good vs one race(excluding mirrors obv). Complete balance would be like the american government, 3 branches, and all have the same power, none of them over rule the other, and starcraft 2 is not at that level- I would try and word it less like rock, paper scissors hahaha! Most of the time its just due to personal opinion which race is good against which, for example i have a lot of confidence in going into a zvp rather then a zvt but thats just me :-) | ||
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DisaFear
Australia4074 Posts
Now, I have a better opinion of Protoss | ||
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PhoenixDark
United States286 Posts
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Unkown User Request
United States26 Posts
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iRk
Sweden83 Posts
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S2Lunar
1051 Posts
Doesn't really bring out anything in the comments except a players thoughts on what race is imbalanced for them. | ||
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phiinix
United States1169 Posts
On October 17 2011 04:17 ae wrote: Figuring out what people think that vote No will be very hard because.. -No and im not a whiner -No and im still a whiner I think its balanced and have thought so before This. I think that's what the poll is trying to distinguish, and i too thought it was balanced before and still is. Total fluke for pvp and zvz finals in recent finals? Not likely. | ||
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Divinek
Canada4045 Posts
Seriously though was nice to see that result | ||
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Bwaaaa
Australia969 Posts
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skrotcyk
Sweden432 Posts
On October 17 2011 15:33 PhoenixDark wrote: Terran are not balanced at all. Mules need to be nerfed, as do Maraders and Ghosts. The problem of course is that if Maraders are nefered, it would have such a huge effect on other matches (mainly TvZ with roaches). I think there's a balance that can be found between a nerf and keeping them relevant. You usually don't go marauders against roaches anyways, u just make more tanks.. | ||
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xtruder
Afghanistan135 Posts
On October 17 2011 04:17 ae wrote: Figuring out what people think that vote No will be very hard because.. -No and im not a whiner -No and im still a whiner I think its balanced and have thought so before -No and I've always been able to see the obvious imbalances -No and I play Terran and have been taking wins I don't deserve since 2010. I think I fixed your post. | ||
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Order
Lithuania231 Posts
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SlamBurglar
United States10 Posts
As for maps, they should get rid of gold bases altogether | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
I don't watch enough pvt to make a judgement on it I just know protosses say ghosts are really really good (which they are). zvt I think is fine except for possible late game ghosts but not even thinking about the ghost I think this match up is balanced easily this match up is just so epic right now :D. | ||
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Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
On October 17 2011 16:11 xtruder wrote: -No and I've always been able to see the obvious imbalances -No and I play Terran and have been taking wins I don't deserve since 2010. I think I fixed your post. Good thing it hasnt been 2010 for 9 months now and people are whining harder than ever (and only when terrans win). | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On October 17 2011 16:44 Sadistx wrote: Good thing it hasnt been 2010 for 9 months now and people are whining harder than ever (and only when terrans win). Nah whenever a protoss loses to . | ||
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S2Lunar
1051 Posts
On October 17 2011 16:11 xtruder wrote: -No and I've always been able to see the obvious imbalances -No and I play Terran and have been taking wins I don't deserve since 2010. I think I fixed your post. I think post like these are the reasons these types of polls should never be created. Seriously... a poll about balance like this one is just troll bait/flame bait... don't know what was being thought when creating a poll like this. | ||
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Champi
1422 Posts
i think its fine but i also think it doesnt matter much anyways considering hots is around the corner | ||
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Teim
Australia373 Posts
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Titusmaster6
United States5937 Posts
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
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mrhh
50 Posts
But i think it is defiantly getting better for protos, and zerg and terran seems equal. | ||
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MooLen
Germany501 Posts
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Shadirrasda
Netherlands21 Posts
I still think terran 1base is very strong (mainly becouse of the mule mechanic allowing terrans to cut more workers) I also think ghost's are a little to cost efficient (any other unit that can do up to 3000 damage in less then a second? AND is invisible) And this is ignoring the fact they can nuke! | ||
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LSDlicious
United States16 Posts
On October 17 2011 04:21 CeriseCherries wrote: The game is pretty good at this point, at least for a Zerg I guess toss could be doing a little better in GSL, but they are doing fine out of koreaStill need some small tweaks the comment above is quoted because it reminds us of GSL and how MLG while having a TONNNNNNN of skilled players still did not have the fierce players that stayed in korea | ||
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Ouga
Finland645 Posts
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rockerman101
United States85 Posts
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choopakabra
53 Posts
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Paladia
802 Posts
It is due to a couple of reasons, the main one being that Protoss offence is equal to its defense in the early to mid-game. Protoss should get one or two more defensive buildings to sort that out. Terran already has 4 defensive buildings, Bunker, Turret, Sentry Tower and PF. Zerg has 2.5, Spore Crawler, Spine Crawler and Creep tumour. Protoss has one, Photon cannon. With a better defense, such as an aoe shield battery or alike, PvP would be more balanced, it would also make P less vulnerable to early terran aggression. | ||
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Onox
United States1072 Posts
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teddyoojo
Germany22369 Posts
mark my words. | ||
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ZeroSix
England54 Posts
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Xcobidoo
Sweden1871 Posts
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SharkStarcraft
Austria2192 Posts
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FearOFailure
Australia9 Posts
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + People seems to forget, Huk made 1er of a group with a bad ZvP player and 3 other protoss. Then had to play a recently come back terran, and another protoss. It's not like he had to play any match where balance could be an issue. | ||
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ackbar
United States94 Posts
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cari-kira
Germany655 Posts
how should this affect my opinion about balance? | ||
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CurrrBell
United States67 Posts
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Firkraag8
Sweden1006 Posts
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Gotmog
Serbia899 Posts
I actually am of the opinion that P/Z players will start to dominate Terrans for a while (starting now, or soon, or after next patch), purely on the account that everyone on the Top level is practicing almost exclusively mu vT. | ||
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SeriouR
Spain622 Posts
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Maxinho
Brazil11 Posts
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Jampackedeon
United States2053 Posts
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callthecops
United States24 Posts
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paddyz
Ireland628 Posts
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Reppin405
United States9 Posts
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kochanfe
Micronesia1338 Posts
But otherwise the game is very balanced right now | ||
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jkos86
50 Posts
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
On October 17 2011 22:58 jkos86 wrote: I agree zerg is the strongest, just lacking in top players. Zerg is always ahead on bases and hence always gets the defenders advantage. The maps are big enough such that a top zerg should be able to hold off any rushes and can go into macro mode. Once zerg goes 3base+ they have a insanely huge advantage. Zerg was always ahead on bases in BW too.. does that mean Zerg is imbalanced in BW? "Once zerg goes 3base+ they have a insanely huge advantage." what a silly statement lol | ||
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IGotPlayguuu
Italy660 Posts
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JoeAWESOME
Sweden1080 Posts
Zerg vs Terran / Protoss is the most exciting matchup due to the fact that the Z has to react and be as greedy as possible + Show Spoiler + Idra vs Bomber series was amazing.... I also feel that the unites overall are too strong. Meaning that you are screwed if you choose the wrong tech tree vs the oponent. There are too much countering in the unit (mainly thinking about the + damage vs armored, + damage light). | ||
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Roeder
Denmark735 Posts
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Wrathsc2
United States2025 Posts
On October 17 2011 23:41 Roeder wrote: Terran massing 2 units still bothers me. I voted no. you mean like zerg masses lings and banelings? sigh | ||
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Xenclamz
United States4 Posts
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Xenclamz
United States4 Posts
On October 17 2011 22:50 Reppin405 wrote: atm terran can still make 1 unit and win the game but they wont nerf marines because then terran becomes to weakest race so i thing the game is balanced but marines still tilt me before you whine about terran being overpowered, please at least use proper words such as Think* not thing. | ||
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Roeder
Denmark735 Posts
On October 17 2011 23:46 radiantshadow92 wrote: you mean like zerg masses lings and banelings? sigh You don't see anyone going lings+banelings only after +15 minutes. All I'm saying is.. marines good, man. On October 17 2011 23:55 Xenclamz wrote: before you whine about terran being overpowered, please at least use proper words such as Think* not thing. Before you post, please at least contribute with something. | ||
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Mr Showtime
United States1353 Posts
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NeThZOR
South Africa7387 Posts
Good job so far by Blizzard and let's hope that they'll leave the game alone for a while so that we may see how balance progresses. | ||
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ZerG_OverlorD
United States16 Posts
No opinion change I think game is balanced. Not completely balanced but balanced enough so everybody has equal opportunities throughout the races | ||
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Xenclamz
United States4 Posts
On October 17 2011 23:55 Roeder wrote: You don't see anyone going lings+banelings only after +15 minutes. All I'm saying is.. marines good, man. Before you post, please at least contribute with something. i did if you look above my post there.  | ||
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TBone-
United States2309 Posts
On October 17 2011 13:39 thingULTRA wrote: gsl is still all terran..... sigh Well yeah, its so hard for different players to get shifted out of the gsl because of the format. It takes what, three months for a code s player to get knocked out of the entire gsl? | ||
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Zax19
Czech Republic1136 Posts
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TBone-
United States2309 Posts
On October 17 2011 22:58 kochanfe wrote: Korean Terrans = OP But otherwise the game is very balanced right now Can you elaborate on that? | ||
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GhostBusters
United States198 Posts
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lurked
Canada918 Posts
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KoBlades
Austria248 Posts
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DNA.MPK
United States50 Posts
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Idra beating bomber was bigger than any other win in all of IEM, ipl, and mlg. Actually a top top korean losing to a foreigner. IPL and iem showed foreigners can compete with mid tier koreans which was already known. Idra showed that foreigners can compete with top level koreans. I'd probably include huk > mkp as well but I didn't watch the games. | ||
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ZanXala
Sweden26 Posts
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suxN
Finland1167 Posts
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XastoC
Canada59 Posts
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VirgilSC2
United States6151 Posts
I really think High Templars need something. As of now they have no defense mechanic like Infestors/Ghosts, on top of being the slowest of the 3. Infestors: Always deal full effectiveness of Fungal Growth if landed properly (impossible to micro out of), average movespeed, burrow AND movement, energy upgrade as well as two up-gradable spells, AoE spell available without research. Ghosts: Always deal full effectiveness of EMP if landed properly (impossible to micro out of), average movespeed, Cloak, able to attack, energy upgrade, AoE spell, as well as snipe available without research, nuke available upon creation High Templar: Storms do not always deal full effectiveness if landed properly (possible to micro out of), slow movespeed, unable to defend themselves or hide, able to morph into Archon with even numbers, AoE spell requires research, no Energy upgrade, no effective third spell I think that's a fair analysis of the three, if it comes off biased I apologize. I won't even begin to bring up the range issue. I think if High Templars get a bit of an adjustment (perhaps a movespeed buff/storm available instantly/some sort of defensive mechanic) then I'll feel a bit better about the game. | ||
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Kompicek
Czech Republic245 Posts
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jmertelj
Slovenia84 Posts
IPL: ZvZ MLG: PvP I GUESS, THAT' BALANCED :S | ||
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Kcheddar
United States21 Posts
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Caddy
United Kingdom178 Posts
It was nice to see that a smart Toss can still mix it up, but on the whole, I still think it's a weaker race (not at the level I play at, but at the professional level). What this tournament has shown, though, is that it's not impossible. | ||
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Velvet_Llama
United States25 Posts
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Denzil
United Kingdom4193 Posts
The problem is people's perceived imbalance, the 'Sad Zealot Fan Club' for instance there was no need for it, Protoss smashed GSTL and got into finals in IEM and MLG. There was no balance problem much the same as there wasn't for Zerg and Terran each got their share of wins and high finishes. | ||
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simpler
Sweden49 Posts
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ChoDing
United States740 Posts
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Zanno
United States1484 Posts
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_MLG_Pro_Circuit/Orlando#Championship_Bracket + Show Spoiler + out of the strong terrans that showed up, puma eliminated polt, and then MC somehow eliminated puma if idra lost to bomber, or polt beat puma, i'm convinced that either of them would have crushed through mc and huk easily, and the sad zealot club would be sadder than ever because huk and mc managed to avoid playing code s terrans, it doesn't change my thoughts on balance at all i guess they did both beat marineking, but he's really inconsistent lately | ||
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Cloud9157
United States2968 Posts
Be it as it may, they may still be a little weak, but its not too bad anymore. This game will be balanced when we stop seeing 20 Terrans in Code S. I can see maybe 10-15 Terrans in Code S at a time, but when over half of Code S is Terran, you know theres something wrong. Just what I think, feel free to take it worth a grain of salt. | ||
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TheToast
United States4808 Posts
After both Orlando and IEM, I think there can be no doubt that tvz has been fixed. | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On October 18 2011 03:05 Cloud9157 wrote: From my pov, Protoss has improved themselves severely in the few weeks since patch. Be it as it may, they may still be a little weak, but its not too bad anymore. This game will be balanced when we stop seeing 20 Terrans in Code S. I can see maybe 10-15 Terrans in Code S at a time, but when over half of Code S is Terran, you know theres something wrong. Just what I think, feel free to take it worth a grain of salt. People really need to stop using GSL as a determinant of balance one way or the other. If you are going to, at least wait for an extended amount of time to do so. Just the nature of GSL and Code S means that players will be cycling in and out on a monthly basis. Be realistic, don't expect there to be a 33/33/33% distribution every month... | ||
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PiRate647
Belgium187 Posts
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snorlax
United States755 Posts
On October 17 2011 04:14 Talin wrote: No, the game is fine. quoted for truth | ||
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Sabre
United Kingdom1086 Posts
On October 18 2011 03:47 SupLilSon wrote: People really need to stop using GSL as a determinant of balance one way or the other. If you are going to, at least wait for an extended amount of time to do so. Just the nature of GSL and Code S means that players will be cycling in and out on a monthly basis. Be realistic, don't expect there to be a 33/33/33% distribution every month... in the current scheme of things there will always be more Terrans in Code S? why? Because a lot of the best koreans in sc2 atm play Terran. Its that simple. | ||
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Sinensis
United States2513 Posts
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The Final Boss
United States1839 Posts
On October 17 2011 11:20 Doof wrote: I feel I should preface this by saying I play Protoss, and thus may be a little biased... I think there is a fundamental problem with the game balance as it stands. The problem is, of course, Terran. As a race, they are not only the best at being defensive, they are also the most flexible when it comes to tech. Siege mode and PFs make bases impenetrable to a HUGE variety of ground-based attacks. Bunkers are really good, salvageable, and require only a barracks to construct (Toss must have forge for our static D). Furthermore, Terran tech, due to the add-on mechanic, is extremely flexible. It's quite easy for them to swap reactors and tech labs to get out the exact right composition that they need. Combine this with the fact that they have the best ability to be defensive, and Terran can have the perfect composition in nearly every fight they choose to engage in. Zerg is, of course, even more flexible than Terran in this regard, but the simple fact remains that Zerg units are (by design) weaker than Terran units. That's just how The Swarm operates. Meanwhile Protoss is so inflexible in their tech that once their chosen tech is sufficiently countered, they're no threat until they can get up another form of an advantage. No one is playing perfectly right now (Nestea and MVP are damn close, though), and until players get near perfect, the true balance of the game can't be seen. All we have to go on is theorycrafting, and theoretically, I dont' see any way either of the other races can beat a Terran in a game where neither player makes mistakes. You're pointing out things that Terran can do, but how about this. Protoss has the ability to build units basically anywhere on the map, can use chronoboost to get ahead in upgrades, tech, army, or economy, has a plethora of really strong openings that--if scouted are easy to stop--if they go unscouted they're nearly impossible to hold off. Plus, out of all units in the game (especially since Hellions and Infestors recently got nerfed), High Templar have the ability to change a battle in ridiculous ways. Before I continue, let's look at a post that Jinro made on PredY's post regarding TvP: On October 02 2011 11:09 Liquid`Jinro wrote: I feel the opposite - TvP is a matchup where if both players played perfectly, terran should never ever win. So dependant on getting good drops etc. Of course its pretty damn close to impossible to play the level of perfect that you can consistently every game deny every single drop which might even make it terran favored in reality. Anyway, I agree 100% with PredY's post, bio TvP makes me want to quit -_- Personally I disagree with all the ultimatums getting thrown around ("Protoss will NEVER win," "Terran will NEVER win," ect.). But I think that Jinro has a pretty good point. TvP early game revolves around an uncountable number of all-ins from both sides that are constantly proven to be very strong (Protoss has them too, any Protoss who disagrees has clearly never watch MC or Alicia play). Late game TvP, on the other hand, involves high macro, and generally the Protoss sits back trying to tech while the Terran must constantly drop to get an edge before the final engagement. And here's the real problem with the whole "perfect-player-vs-perfect-player" scenario. Terran relies on drops, and frankly, good drop play relies on you noticing your opponent's weaknesses and exploiting them. If the person you're playing is perfect, then they have the ability to deflect all those drops. Then, because of chronoboost, a Protoss should be able to out-upgrade their Terran opponent, and since he did no damage with drops the Protoss is able to completely roll them with their Gateway/Colossus/Templar ball. So really, I don't think that the scenario in itself has flaws, but if both players play perfectly, the Protoss should win late game. But since you really want "perfect games," let's look at some of the best played games I've ever watched. First example:  ThorZaIN vs  MC on Tal'Darim Altar in TSL3. It was my favorite game to watch ever because both players executed everything they did so well, yet MC wound up winning the game. Or how about  IdrA vs Bomber Game 1 last MLG. I don't want to say that either player played perfectly, but IdrA played the best I've ever seen him and Bomber played incredibly. They both made mistakes, but the macro of each was completely off the chain. Easily one of the best games of the whole tournament, and guess what. The Zerg won.That being said, I think the game is pretty balanced. I don't really think that there is a whole lot wrong with the game, but Protoss certainly isn't the weakest race. They just need more innovation. On October 17 2011 11:35 sciberbia wrote: I've thought terran is OP for a while now and still do, but I play zerg so yea... Just wanna note a fact about the Boxer v. Idra series: Boxer's record when doing a proxy 2-rax: 3-0 (metal counts) Boxer's record when not proxying: 0-4 Boxer still has three pages worth of Brood War accolades in TLPD, is the first bonjwa, and is basically the father of E-Sports. Cheesing is part of the game, and BoxeR happens to be really good at it. And on Tal'Darim they weren't proxied raxs and on Metalopolis it wasn't the 2 rax that won him the game and it basically did nothing. IdrA just reacted poorly in that game. Though if you really want to get into a balance debate about TvZ, how about this: a Korean Terran can't beat an American Zerg unless he cheeses, because Z is OP late game. Personally I think that sounds silly, but no more or less silly than what you wrote. Don't complain about balance then point to a series where a Zerg won and NEVER bash BoxeR. | ||
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The Final Boss
United States1839 Posts
On October 18 2011 01:32 VirgilSC2 wrote: I'm very hesitant to comment on balance, as I'm coming off of a 2-Day ban for balance whine, but: I really think High Templars need something. As of now they have no defense mechanic like Infestors/Ghosts, on top of being the slowest of the 3. Infestors: Always deal full effectiveness of Fungal Growth if landed properly (impossible to micro out of), average movespeed, burrow AND movement, energy upgrade as well as two up-gradable spells, AoE spell available without research. Ghosts: Always deal full effectiveness of EMP if landed properly (impossible to micro out of), average movespeed, Cloak, able to attack, energy upgrade, AoE spell, as well as snipe available without research, nuke available upon creation High Templar: Storms do not always deal full effectiveness if landed properly (possible to micro out of), slow movespeed, unable to defend themselves or hide, able to morph into Archon with even numbers, AoE spell requires research, no Energy upgrade, no effective third spell I think that's a fair analysis of the three, if it comes off biased I apologize. I won't even begin to bring up the range issue. I think if High Templars get a bit of an adjustment (perhaps a movespeed buff/storm available instantly/some sort of defensive mechanic) then I'll feel a bit better about the game. You forgot to mention that High Templar's spell has the highest chance of killing units (fungal growth needs to be chained due to low damage and EMP will never kill a unit) and they can be built in 5 seconds anywhere on the map. Those are pretty important pieces of information. Plus I see Protoss players using Feedback to kill Ghosts and Infestors all the time. So really what you wrote wasn't "fair" at all seeing as you left out every good part about High Templar. I don't know a lot about ZvP, so I'm going to make the rest of this comment about TvP exclusively. Let's look at two different scenarios:
What I'm trying to say is that Ghosts are especially good at killing/negating High Templar, but they aren't nearly as good at killing Zealots and Stalkers as High Templar are at killing Marines or Marauders. Plus, if you micro your Templar well and put them in Warp Prism then you can basically negate EMP. Saying Templar are weak units or that they aren't powerful is ridiculous. | ||
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Micket
United Kingdom2163 Posts
But mid-late game, I think Protoss is doing great. Terrible maps just have to be removed. Xelnaga Caverns - OUT! Dual Sight - lol wut ZvP! Tournaments are so reliant on GSL for maps and as a result are months behind on latest map balance. SC2 has got to the point where a map is no longer 'fine' if all races can play a macro game (not the Xelnaga and Dual Sight achieve this). Antiga Shipyard is incredibly imbalanced as Zerg has no easy 4th whilst Terran has easy 4 bases. Bomber's play vs Idra on that was soo beautiful and the game would have been even more one sided had Bomber scouted the hidden expos (wit or without baneling speed). The fact that some tournaments allow horizontal positions is completely unacceptable. | ||
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Oroch
Belgium143 Posts
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f0X
Germany38 Posts
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highsis
259 Posts
Terran > Zerg > Protoss What needs to be done: 1) EMP range nerf from 10 to 9 (for PvT) 2) Restore Khaydarin Amulet with research cost 300/300 (for PvT) 3) Nerf Terran reactor's production speed to 90% of the original. Build time buff from 50 - > 40 (for TvZ) | ||
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jmbthirteen
United States10734 Posts
On October 18 2011 06:41 f0X wrote: mlg orlando first major tourny in 3 months where a protoss was in the final. last one was eu battle net invitational where nani lost to ret... so it was about time a protoss comes through again. lets see how long it will take for the next protoss to reach the final. naniwa and huk dont have bad chances at mlg providence because the spawn so deep in the winnerbracket... im excited to see how the placements will be! Umm Code A? Oz was just in the finals and Puzzle vs Tassadar was 2 seasons before that. | ||
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TheDougler
Canada8302 Posts
So in answer, no, I think Terran is slightly overpowered because of the plethora of possible strategies. | ||
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-Risk-
Canada164 Posts
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ComaDose
Canada10352 Posts
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Kernen
United States84 Posts
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Kontys
Finland659 Posts
I used to think Protoss could be carefully outplayed by zerg/terran by just decision making. Now I'm not so sure. (MLG Orlando, particularly Sheth vs SaSe, HuK vs TheSTC, MC vs TheSTC and SaSe vs Bomber series). It really seemed that the margin of error for T/Z players has become much smaller. That being said, disregarding timing attacks, Protoss really is becoming a turtle-till-max race.. Kind of? For Code A : I will be much surprised if less than 3 toss make it through the up and downs. And MC is back in Code S! Things are looking much better than 2-3 months ago. | ||
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Vxu
Canada41 Posts
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kyriores
Greece178 Posts
Terran still looks too weak late game and unless they outplay their opponent greatly or do some good timing pushes early (that tend to get countered more and more frequently as the patch gets older), victory is impossible. PvZ's are ok, although Protoss still has the deathball advantage late game. All the mirror matchups remain dependent on decision making and strategy used. | ||
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VAGZ
574 Posts
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Da Dopeman
United States4 Posts
Nuff said | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38797 Posts
The rest of the match-ups are fine with these maps. | ||
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souLess419
Canada11 Posts
Oh, the lack of Protoss in Code S right now is disgusting. 1-1-1 much? Other than that, game seems okay. | ||
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Belial154
United States48 Posts
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RetoX
Hong Kong252 Posts
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HEROwithNOlegacy
United States850 Posts
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
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GinDo
3327 Posts
Protoss players should be more positive. Your race may suck against Bio, but its really strong against Mech. So were even kk? | ||
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Kitaen
Austria466 Posts
def in favor of protoss regarding the late game - but thank god this game is not all about 200/200 | ||
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The Final Boss
United States1839 Posts
On October 18 2011 07:14 highsis wrote: No, Protoss is still significantly weaker than Terran. 1/1/1 is defensible now, but EMP still needs a fix. Terran > Zerg > Protoss What needs to be done: 1) EMP range nerf from 10 to 9 (for PvT) 2) Restore Khaydarin Amulet with research cost 300/300 (for PvT) 3) Nerf Terran reactor's production speed to 90% of the original. Build time buff from 50 - > 40 (for TvZ) Khaydarin Amulet only makes sense as an upgrade if High Templar can no longer be warped in. They already have the most damaging spell and they build in 5 seconds anywhere on the map. They get enough energy about the same time that Ghosts or Infestors get enough energy with the upgrades, so really there's no need for it. People who complain about Khaydarin Amulet are just unwilling to admit that it is completely unfair. Won Protoss players a lot of games that they would have lost were they unable to storm anywhere on the map at 5 seconds notice. | ||
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itkovian
United States1763 Posts
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Kazbot
United States4 Posts
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rS.eZrA
United States39 Posts
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Netsky
Australia1155 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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gurrpp
United States437 Posts
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Najda
United States3765 Posts
On October 17 2011 04:17 ae wrote: Figuring out what people think that vote No will be very hard because.. -No and im not a whiner -No and im still a whiner I think its balanced and have thought so before Yea that's the problem with the poll. I guess maybe if you were thinking+ Show Spoiler [race of mlg winner] + protoss | ||
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TheAntZ
Israel6248 Posts
On October 18 2011 10:26 GinDo wrote: Protoss players should be more positive. Your race may suck against Bio, but its really strong against Mech. So were even kk? Then there needs to be more fucking Mech v P | ||
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Camail
United States1030 Posts
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
Voted no, but its not like it means anything I could be voting: -No, P was always OP and is now OP. -No game is fine -No P is UP and will always be UP etc... Personally I think the game is reasonably balanced, and metagames shifts do happen. But people are always impatient as fuck and they want their race getting back into shape NOW. | ||
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
On October 17 2011 21:26 cari-kira wrote: funny question, the mlg-winner huk only played 1 PvT in the whole tournament, and that was against a mkp that played more like a clown, not like a code s player. 1 PvZ aganist a july in even worde shape, and the rest were all PvPs. how should this affect my opinion about balance? In that the runner up MC played against Puma, MKP, Idra, STC and won?_? | ||
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
But there are still glaring imbalances in terms of excitement. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
As is it says that a little more than 50% of the community hasn't changed their opinion but that doesn't mean if they think the game is balanced or imbalanced. | ||
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rfoster
United States1005 Posts
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jib117
United States24 Posts
Please work on how you word polls bro. | ||
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Ultrafunk
Guatemala1 Post
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Eyx
England165 Posts
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SoniC_eu
Denmark1008 Posts
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