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On December 04 2009 11:50 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Jaedong's ZvZ is still shoddy, he's just playing less of it now, his ZvP and ZvT never went anywhere, he just barely played any last month because he was seeded so far in the individual leagues.
I really think a lot of the recent ZvZ weakness can simply be attributed to the gains other Zerg players have made. Zerg players as a whole have actually had reason to focus on ZvZ as a matchup now, and the gains in unit control can also be seen in other matchups, especially with the vP Mutalisk-sniping trend.
That's not to say that he's -not- playing worse, because I don't think he's as dominant as he was. I just think that a lot of it is because the gap between Jaedong and "tier 2" Zerg is smaller than it was in the past.
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Pro-gamers typically improve drastically in their mirror MUs preceding drastic overall improvements. Similarly, the mirror MUs are the first things to go when a player is on the way down.
I'm not saying this is the case for Jaedong, because it is also normal for gamers to have a lull following a major title... but it's something to keep in mind.
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On December 04 2009 13:45 Orbifold wrote:
Pro-gamers typically improve drastically in their mirror MUs preceding drastic overall improvements. Similarly, the mirror MUs are the first things to go when a player is on the way down.
What do you base this on?
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Sigh Kim Taek Yong,
Why do you do this to your fans?
It hurts. It really really hurts.
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On December 04 2009 13:45 Orbifold wrote:
Pro-gamers typically improve drastically in their mirror MUs preceding drastic overall improvements. Similarly, the mirror MUs are the first things to go when a player is on the way down.
I'm not saying this is the case for Jaedong, because it is also normal for gamers to have a lull following a major title... but it's something to keep in mind.
Yeah, I dunno, I'm not seeing this really. Savior's ZvZ was the last thing he improved and his ZvZ was the last matchup to go, and Savior's the last player who's had a big enough career to measure and whose trajectory is complete (though if he does make a comeback it would be great).
I do believe, however, that the JvZ era is over and isn't coming back. Jaedong's understanding of the matchup and his unit control used to be so far ahead of everyone else that he could often overcome build order disadvantages. His understanding and unit control are better than ever, but all the other Zerg have studied his VODs and replays to death and have raised their decision making and micro to the point where build order disadvantages are much harder to overcome, just like in the old days. Today if Jaedong goes overgaspool against a 12hatch from any proteam's top ZvZer, he's guaranteed to lose.
A bar graph.
before:
_______________________________________
J_____A_____E_____D_____O_____N_____G )
________________
OTHERZERGDONG)
______________________
BUILDADVANTAGEDONG)
now:
___________________________________________________
J_______A_______E_______D_______O_______N_______G)
_________________________________________
O__T__H__E__R__Z__E__R__G__D__O__N__G)
______________________
BUILDADVANTAGEDONG)
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Sorry, but I can see any justification of having anyone who got out of BOTH Starleagues before the Ro16 AND lost to Haksoo. IMO, Bisu is going to have to be REALLY good in Proleague this month for him for me to be okay with a low spot this month
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On December 04 2009 13:45 Orbifold wrote:
Pro-gamers typically improve drastically in their mirror MUs preceding drastic overall improvements. Similarly, the mirror MUs are the first things to go when a player is on the way down.
I'm not saying this is the case for Jaedong, because it is also normal for gamers to have a lull following a major title... but it's something to keep in mind.
Savior won the ZvZ ace to get CJ into the Proleague finals vs. Lecaf even though he was well into his major slump at the time. I think it is more likely that a players ability in long games goes first, and MU that have shorter game lengths tend to be the last part of a slumping players performance to go. Of course I haven't seen enough players crash and burn to be sure of this, but the theory behind it certainly is plausible.
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"and MU that have shorter game lengths" so this doesn't apply to TvT? What about Xellos/Midas/(Nada)?
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SKT in free fall super slump mode. I'm loving it. 
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hey, now PR and ELO are nearly identical )))
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On December 06 2009 18:33 din wrote:hey, now PR and ELO are nearly identical )))
rofl wow
Did we ever have that before?
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On December 06 2009 18:33 din wrote:hey, now PR and ELO are nearly identical )))
Wow, you're right.
PR - Elo
1. Flash - Flash
2. Jaedong - Jaedong
3. Bisu - Bisu
4. Effort - Effort
5. Stork - Stork
6. ZerO - ZerO
7. Calm - Sea
8. Sea - Calm
9. Fantasy - Fantasy
10. Kwanro - Kal (note: Kwanro at 11 Elo)
Nobody is more than one spot away from their Elo rank
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On December 06 2009 14:10 Holgerius wrote:SKT in free fall super slump mode. I'm loving it.
Coming from a Samsung Khan fan.
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On December 04 2009 23:34 wswordsmen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2009 13:45 Orbifold wrote:
Pro-gamers typically improve drastically in their mirror MUs preceding drastic overall improvements. Similarly, the mirror MUs are the first things to go when a player is on the way down.
I'm not saying this is the case for Jaedong, because it is also normal for gamers to have a lull following a major title... but it's something to keep in mind. Savior won the ZvZ ace to get CJ into the Proleague finals vs. Lecaf even though he was well into his major slump at the time. I think it is more likely that a players ability in long games goes first, and MU that have shorter game lengths tend to be the last part of a slumping players performance to go. Of course I haven't seen enough players crash and burn to be sure of this, but the theory behind it certainly is plausible.
I would expect that opposite - that more precise match-ups with less room for error (i.e. shorter match-ups) are the first to go when a player starts slumping. Longer match-ups can more easily by played on the weight of your long experience in BW.
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pripple
Finland1714 Posts
On December 06 2009 18:58 Hinanawi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2009 18:33 din wrote:hey, now PR and ELO are nearly identical ))) Wow, you're right. PR - Elo 1. Flash - Flash 2. Jaedong - Jaedong 3. Bisu - Bisu 4. Effort - Effort 5. Stork - Stork 6. ZerO - ZerO 7. Calm - Sea 8. Sea - Calm 9. Fantasy - Fantasy 10. Kwanro - Kal (note: Kwanro at 11 Elo) Nobody is more than one spot away from their Elo rank
This only shows how precise our PR's are ;p
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
lol the similarity is uncanny
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On December 04 2009 00:47 tree.hugger wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2009 20:02 StylishVODs wrote:
you silly guys who couldn't believe jaedong to stay high last month:O The PR isn't intended to be predictive, it's merely meant to encapsulate a moment. The thing is,  Jaedong was horribly over-ranked last month, but he had a very good month recently, and his current position is just fine.
Yeah he lost a few games but he was still good enough for that position and just a few games didn't drop him off and it was the right call!
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Also props to "predicting" current fantasy's form
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Flash is about to break the ELO record once more:D
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On December 07 2009 09:10 StylishVODs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2009 00:47 tree.hugger wrote:On December 03 2009 20:02 StylishVODs wrote:
you silly guys who couldn't believe jaedong to stay high last month:O The PR isn't intended to be predictive, it's merely meant to encapsulate a moment. The thing is, Jaedong was horribly over-ranked last month, but he had a very good month recently, and his current position is just fine. Yeah he lost a few games but he was still good enough for that position and just a few games didn't drop him off and it was the right call!
Except that last month you had no idea if he was good enough for that position. Theoretically he could've slumped ever after, and the #2 spot would have looked even sillier in retrospect than it did after that PR came out. I never said Jaedong should've fallen off the rank, but he should've been around #5, with how well other people were playing in relation to him.
Just because a player did well the month after doesn't mean the PR was somehow validated. Again, it's not intended as a prediction, otherwise we'd never see anyone new on the rank.
I think  Really will actually be noticed by Riptide on the next PR. Ignoring his existence twice is a little much, imo.
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EPT
