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Myrkul
Croatia132 Posts
On March 09 2009 16:25 fearus wrote: So... you are suggesting that by moving out of korea and not playing as much he has actually improved? i think he's suggesting that nobody really knows how much better nony got in korea | ||
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Metaspace
Austria670 Posts
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Roxen000
1226 Posts
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vx70GTOJudgexv
United States3161 Posts
On March 09 2009 13:52 Phoned wrote: "but I never didn't think you were a fucking moron." ROFL! What is this jibberish? Half of this is completely unreadable. If practicing like a Korean isn't the way to get to the top, what is? Good Kim-Chi? The vast majority of non-koreans have no set practice routine or schedule. I refuse to believe that there aren't any naturally talented and capable human beings outside of Korea. If it isn't good practice habits that makes you improve, what do you suggest? Most foreigners hate the reality that they have to practice hard to improve. Many don't have the time or patience for it. It's hard work. That's why you have people like AttackZerg QQ'ing everytime "practice" aka "work" is brought up. Someone call the wahmbulance... I think the main thing people are missing is that Korean practice style is different than the foreign approach. Yes it is long, rigorous hours which a lot of people can't handle. But it's also that the Korean approach is not the way that foreigners go, and when the foreigners do get over there, it's like trying to re-teach someone to ride a bike differently. For many athletes, adjusting from one coaching style to another in any sport is a tough adjustment. I went through it myself, and I couldn't take it from high school to college. As for the whole "foreigners hate the reality that they have to practice hard to improve bit", I wouldn't go mocking them until you've experienced it yourself dude. It is a completely different way of living, and if you aren't used to it, it can be a tough challenge. There is a lot of sacrifice involved that can take a toll on someone. I think the only way a foreigner can truly succeed (I'm talking about winning hardcore matches, not just winning Courage or making B-team) in the Korean system at this point is if they start out there. Otherwise by the time they are recognized for being skilled, they are set in their own form of training, whatever it is, and they're beyond the point of adaptation. If you want to know where the whole "Korean training is different" sentiment is coming from, see this thread. It was a rather interesting set of games between Strelok and F91. Looking forward to NonY-F91. | ||
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404.Delirium
United States1190 Posts
Hmn, thought I did. People will find it in the OP anyway. =) | ||
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Nytefish
United Kingdom4282 Posts
On March 09 2009 18:13 Delirium wrote: Okay. Download is now available from FileFront at: http://files.filefront.com/Liquibition 28 F91 vs Skrar/;13435871;/fileinfo.html I will continue to seed and; if there are any issues with the download SEND A PM, as I will likely not check this thread very frequently anymore. EDIT: Supposedly the quality is only up to 93% of the original folder from the torrent according to Winrar manager. If there's issues let me know. Thanks a lot, I don't like torrenting because my upload is really bad and I can't keep it on for a long time. | ||
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freelander
Hungary4707 Posts
fucked up games all over the place | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10637 Posts
We don't know and we never will know (at least until SC2 where the cards are mixed again) if the Korean approach is the right one. Nowhere else in the world you find as many "potentials" as in Korea (in other words: players, not even very good ones, just players). If I remember correctly *my* community (Switzerland) consisted at his height of about ~100-150 players (that's 0.0019% of Switzerland's population), probably ~30-50 were *regulars that you saw every few days* about 10-20 people were the *core* (playing daily which would be 0.0002%)... . If you got a giant amount of potential and therefore can really *take* the guys that *fit* with your training schedule and show promise in their initial game play it's not exactly hard to get better results than the "just in my free time" top foreigners which come from a pretty small community. I mean it's like: "The best of a few with part time training" VS "the very best of a lot with full time training"... Actually the top foreigners sometimes beating/getting games from progamers show me that the Korean approach probably is flawed, at least to some extent. I mean, when was the last time you heard of a top #100 Golf/Swimming/Track/Tennis/Boxing/"Whatever 1on1 sport" player losing to a *talented and pretty devoted* amateur? In these sports people to even stand a chance need to train like a pro first and still they won't see even the slightest of a chance against the best until they are pro. Sometimes there are Talents that get high in the rankings faster, but there are no "part time" guys that beat professionals. I highly doubt that playing a game 12 hours a day is doing you much better than playing 4-5 hours a day, at least after you reached a certain level of skill (well, it will help your muscle memory but you don't see musicians training 10h+ a day, probably because training this long is just stupid/futile...). If I look at the foreigners that were/are in Korea there is nothing that could proof me wrong on this (until now). Btw: The Korean training schedules really screams "ASIAN" (Korean/Japanese/Chinese sort of Asian... Don't hang me on that, pls) at me... I don't know any other place on earth were people even would consider such a trianing schedule as *good*. | ||
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BisuBoi
United States350 Posts
On March 10 2009 01:29 Velr wrote: The thing with the training styles is (that's just how i think it is): We don't know and we never will know (at least until SC2 where the cards are mixed again) if the Korean approach is the right one. Nowhere else in the world you find as many "potentials" as in Korea (in other words: players, not even very good ones, just players). If I remember correctly *my* community (Switzerland) consisted at his height of about ~100-150 players (that's 0.0019% of Switzerland's population), probably ~30-50 were *regulars that you saw every few days* about 10-20 people were the *core* (playing daily which would be 0.0002%)... . If you got a giant amount of potential and therefore can really *take* the guys that *fit* with your training schedule and show promise in their initial game play it's not exactly hard to get better results than the "just in my free time" top foreigners which come from a pretty small community. I mean it's like: "The best of a few with part time training" VS "the very best of a lot with full time training"... Actually the top foreigners sometimes beating/getting games from progamers show me that the Korean approach probably is flawed, at least to some extent. I mean, when was the last time you heard of a top #100 Golf/Swimming/Track/Tennis/Boxing/"Whatever 1on1 sport" player losing to a *talented and pretty devoted* amateur? In these sports people to even stand a chance need to train like a pro first and still they won't see even the slightest of a chance against the best until they are pro. Sometimes there are Talents that get high in the rankings faster, but there are no "part time" guys that beat professionals. I highly doubt that playing a game 12 hours a day is doing you much better than playing 4-5 hours a day, at least after you reached a certain level of skill (well, it will help your muscle memory but you don't see musicians training 10h+ a day, probably because training this long is just stupid/futile...). If I look at the foreigners that were/are in Korea there is nothing that could proof me wrong on this (until now). Btw: The Korean training schedules really screams "ASIAN" (Korean/Japanese/Chinese sort of Asian... Don't hang me on that, pls) at me... I don't know any other place on earth were people even would consider such a trianing schedule as *good*. Why would the Korean method be flawed? Is the scientific method flawed? Koreans sit there and practice things like science. They drill and rehearse basic game plans over and over and then modify based on situations. That's what any person does when training for something. The Koreans just do it on a systemic level, while foreigners mostly have to get together w/ friends or clanmates and don't have 8 hr blocks to dedicate themselves to training the same exact build with another really skilled player over and over. And I disagree with comparing physical sports to mental ones. They're not the same. Physical conditioning requires ridiculous amounts of time and energy that someone who's not pro can't dedicate to that. It's a limitation of the physical form. Try relating it to chess. Has a pro chess player ever lost to an amateur? Sorry, but your analysis doesn't cut it for me. Your evidence consists of 3-4 people who tried to go to Korea and maybe 5-6 games that pros have lost to foreigners. Out of how many thousands of people who try and how many tens of thousands games played? And it's not at all like "Best amateurs vs Best pros" = Amateurs win sometimes. Yeah, let's make a team of Stork, Flash, Bisu, Jaedong vs Nony, F91, Draco, Mondragon and see who wins. Anyone want to bet against the Koreans? If they played 100 matches, how many would the amateurs take in an KOF format? p.s. Some of these Korean "pros" were wearing diapers when the top foreigners were playing SC. | ||
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Centric
United States1989 Posts
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baubo
China3370 Posts
On March 10 2009 01:29 Velr wrote:We don't know and we never will know (at least until SC2 where the cards are mixed again) if the Korean approach is the right one. Nowhere else in the world you find as many "potentials" as in Korea (in other words: players, not even very good ones, just players). This is kind of pointless to point out. It would be akin to questioning the training methods of American Football players, or Indian Cricket players. When a sport is very regional, the best players all go through similar training. Sure there's going to be deficiencies because of cultural bias or traditions, but it's not as if anyone can point those out until the sport becomes global. I mean it's like: "The best of a few with part time training" VS "the very best of a lot with full time training"... Actually the top foreigners sometimes beating/getting games from progamers show me that the Korean approach probably is flawed, at least to some extent. I mean, when was the last time you heard of a top #100 Golf/Swimming/Track/Tennis/Boxing/"Whatever 1on1 sport" player losing to a *talented and pretty devoted* amateur? In these sports people to even stand a chance need to train like a pro first and still they won't see even the slightest of a chance against the best until they are pro. Sometimes there are Talents that get high in the rankings faster, but there are no "part time" guys that beat professionals. If you're making this statement, I'm guessing you've never even thought about the meta game of Starcraft. This is such flawed logic if you only think about some of the basic premises of the game and of other sports. I highly doubt that playing a game 12 hours a day is doing you much better than playing 4-5 hours a day, at least after you reached a certain level of skill (well, it will help your muscle memory but you don't see musicians training 10h+ a day, probably because training this long is just stupid/futile...). If I look at the foreigners that were/are in Korea there is nothing that could proof me wrong on this (until now). This has been proven wrong again and again in both actual games and in progamer interviews. And why even the best players lose so often to snipers. Granted, 12 hours may be overkill due to physical limits of a body, but more practice does work. Btw: The Korean training schedules really screams "ASIAN" (Korean/Japanese/Chinese sort of Asian... Don't hang me on that, pls) at me... I don't know any other place on earth were people even would consider such a trianing schedule as *good*. Well, there is... US. Although I do agree that among developed countries, Europeans tend to be more relaxed. | ||
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
On March 09 2009 06:21 FlamyDeath wrote: which part of "every aspect" don't you understand? Yet again when did I say that? I said in my post that I like Plexas voice not his commentating skills. See it now..? | ||
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Megalisk
United States6095 Posts
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BalliSLife
1339 Posts
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
On March 09 2009 16:25 fearus wrote: So... you are suggesting that by moving out of korea and not playing as much he has actually improved? what are you talking about Im not talking about his skill since he moved out of korea, but since he first left the US And come on I mean your sentence "I'll put Nony on the same level as JF, Idra and Stelok. To say its about even would suggest Nony would beat all 3 of them by a comfortable margin." is just stupid.. if Nony beat JF that might mean his PvP is better than JF's.... does that mean his PvZ is better also???? obviously not (btw in those liquibition games after destination JF clearly played way worse than he usually does, so in another best of 5 between him and f91 it might look differently) I actually voted in the poll "F91 will destroy Nony easily" cause that was my guess (and cause I'm naturally zerg biased ^^) but people should stop pretending like they know whats up... Also afterwards I thought getting 2nd in courage isnt bad at all | ||
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lovejessgill
United States51 Posts
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Nick_54
United States2230 Posts
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MutaDoom
Canada1163 Posts
Let's just wait for SC2, and maybe we'll have new players eating everyone else alive. Who knows, the new guy could be German, American, Canadian, or anything. An SC2 female bonjwa from Zimbabwe is a possibility if she does it right(Granted, it's not likely), but it's all a waiting game. Let's stop bickering back and forth before it turns into a flame war, sit back, and enjoy the incoming playoffs of the WL. *Edit* Oh, and the commentary was great for the set by the way. I'd love to see you guys pairing up again. | ||
CTStalker
Canada9720 Posts
and i just want to reiterate that attackzerg is a moron | ||
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
On March 11 2009 04:11 MutaDoom wrote: I just wanna get my 2 cents in before this thread gets old and I feel like a dick for posting in it lol. We may be witnessing one of the most pointless arguments in the history of pro/semi-pro Starcraft. We all have opinions of the training regiments the players go through, as several people including Velr, baubo, and 7mk have proven, yet there's no way to prove anything. I invite someone to create a formula to show whether the 10hr/day training is as beneficial as it seems. The only thing we know is this: there are far superior players in Korea right now, and in a best of 100 or even 1000, they would absolutely obliterate(lol@ archon) any foreigners in a good majority of the games. We may have our favorites, we may root for others, for example I'd want F91 to take Stork or Leta in a match, but I simply doubt it would happen, and I most definitely wouldn't put money on him. Let's just wait for SC2, and maybe we'll have new players eating everyone else alive. Who knows, the new guy could be German, American, Canadian, or anything. An SC2 female bonjwa from Zimbabwe is a possibility if she does it right(Granted, it's not likely), but it's all a waiting game. Let's stop bickering back and forth before it turns into a flame war, sit back, and enjoy the incoming playoffs of the WL. *Edit* Oh, and the commentary was great for the set by the way. I'd love to see you guys pairing up again. dude why the hell are you mentioning me, your points dont even have to do anything with what I said... All I said was "who the fuck knows how nonys playing now" I didnt say anything about what I think about Korea's training regiments On March 11 2009 03:52 Nick_54 wrote: Just watched the vods, not the best games, but enjoyable. F91 is such a beast, idk if Nony can't beat him it will have to be Dreiven since Cloud has been pretty inactive lately I think. Also, the commentary was very enjoyable. Not that any of them are bad, but the Chill and Artosis are superior to Plexa and Rage in nearly every way possible as far as commentating is concerned. Their combined commentary and strategic insight made the games far more entertaining. Yeah I also wanted to mention how great their commentary was, made not so great games (was there even a single dark swarm in any of these 7 games?) pretty interesting. And I mean it was perfect for the matchup, having a Zerg and a Terran player as commentators for a ZvT...hmmm I guess youll have to get Chill and Tasteless for F91 vs Nony now | ||
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