[WCS KR] Winners R3 Recap/Losers R4 Preview - Page 3

On August 21 2012 13:38 X3GoldDot wrote:


6 dragons of broodwar are the 6 most dominant protosses of a certain period around bisu+stork, the 6 dragons are bisu, stork,best, kal, free and jangbi

6 dragons of liberty could be seed, MC, squirtle, parting, creator + genius, hero or puzzle, personally i think hero doesnt deserve it as he has shown inconsistency more than the other 7 mentioned players. probably goes to puzzle.

On August 21 2012 23:16 Gruntt wrote:
For the first time in a long time, I can't really see a dominant race. Yeah, protoss is winning a lot, but it really does seem like every race has a fair chance vs each other now.

I know we're calling protoss as winning a bunch, but let's just see what happens...... they don't exactly have the greatest track record in major tournaments.

On August 22 2012 02:56 CoR wrote:
marineking not even QUALIFIED
MVP forfeit
...

when the best terrans do THIS well, the reason protoss is top4 is not that p is to strong but t are just not THERE !

On August 22 2012 03:42 The Final Boss wrote:

One could argue that the reason why Protoss used to do so poorly was because they were not in Code S and the format made it almost impossible to displace Terrans already in Code S. And yet there still were nerfs and buffs that helped Protoss and hurt Terran...

On August 22 2012 04:36 HolyArrow wrote:


I disagree with that argument. Back in the era of Terran domination, Protosses in Code S lost way early on, and also kept on losing in the Up/Down matches against other races. If Protoss was truly strong all this time as you seem to be implying, then the few Tosses in Code S would have at least performed well and we'd have a steady stream of new Toss players rising from Code A, both of which were clearly not the case. And let's not forget that Toss is the only race that went well over a year without a GSL win. In the past, it was a combination of a lack of good, MC-caliber players, and the race being overall a bit weak that was the cause of Toss performing so badly.

On August 22 2012 05:08 The Final Boss wrote:

I'm actually saying Terran was really strong then and that Protoss is really strong now. Tournament results happen to support both of those claims. The post I quoted is trying to make the statement that Protoss is not strong, but rather it is because the best Terrans are not in the tournament that Protoss is doing well. And yes, back then Protoss players did lose early on; now Terran players are losing early on. There's only one Terran left in WCS Korea and over half of the players left are Protoss.

Also, I think it's fair to say that the race was never "weak" as you say, but rather that Protoss players did not actually use the arsenal in front of them. How long did it take before Warp Prisms started to be used? How long was it before Colossi tech was occasionally replaced with the slightly more micro-intensive Templar Tech? And what happened when Protoss players actually started using those things? The reasons why Protoss used to do badly had nothing to do with how "weak" the race was, it was how poorly people were playing it. When all you do is one or two base Warpgate/Robo based attacks (and of course the occasional DT rush), you are only going to get so far, especially in a tournament like GSL. The reasons quite simply were a lack of innovation on Protoss part and an old GSL system that held back good, up-and-coming players. There were different points where Puzzle and DRG were regarded as the best players in the world, and yet they were struggling just to get into Code A, and were incredibly far from getting into Code S. Meanwhile, players like Ensnare would win a single game a season and be guaranteed a spot for the next season.

On August 22 2012 05:22 HolyArrow wrote:


Your point about lack of innovation is noted, but I argue that the various Toss-favored balance changes resulted in giving Toss more breathing room to actually innovate. Fact is, it's difficult to innovate when you're dying to 1-1-1 all-ins and when EMPs were as strong as they used to be. Not to mention the various small observer buffs that made it that much easier to play safer.

Also, I posted this in last night's LR thread, but I guess I'll repeat it here: Many strong Terran and Zerg players aren't present in WCS Korea. If you actually look at many of the matchups that occurred in WCS Korea, most of the time it wasn't really an upset when the Toss player won, but rather, a match that you'd expect the player to win because he was just the stronger player. Squirtle vs. B4 and Roro? Genius vs. dreamertt? The reigning GSL champion vs. pretty much anyone? Puzzle and HerO vs. Reality? The list goes on and on. Where are Taeja, MKP, and Byun, to name a few Terrans that I think are on par with the best Protosses in the tournament? Where are Symbol, Hyun, Life, Nestea, and so-on? Terran and Zerg in general got screwed for WCS Korea because many of their best players either got upset or didn't participate in the qualifiers, while the strong Toss players all got seeded in. Furthermore, MVP forfeiting hurt the Terran showing a lot more than MC forfeiting hurt the Toss showing due to the lower number of good Ts in the tournament compared to Ps.

Don't get me wrong, I don't deny that Toss has been very strong lately - the very fact that most of the seeds based on GSL rankings went to strong Toss players is evidence enough of how well Toss has been doing in the GSL. But I do think that if many of the good T and Z players were actually in WCS Korea, it wouldn't look as ridiculous as PvPvPvP in the semifinals.

On August 22 2012 05:31 The Final Boss wrote:

I guess the EMP nerf did really make TvP way harder (and therefore PvT easier) in the late game (of course ballers like Taeja make it look easy, lol). But did the Immortal buff that was supposed to stop 1-1-1 actually do anything? Because I still see 1-1-1s that lose when there are no Immortals and I also see 1-1-1s that work when there are Immortals. I think that the new wave of Protoss players that are crushing this tournament and the GSL are the real reason why Protoss started doing well. People started playing the race correctly and now they win. Oh, and I agree with you that it probably would not be PvPvPvP in the semis were there better players from the other two races, but back in early-mid 2011, if Puzzle/other up-and-coming Protoss players had been in Code S they probably would have gotten deeper than other Protoss players at the time did.

On August 22 2012 06:30 JuiceBoxHero wrote:
My one hope in all of this is that blizzard reacts with a patch that nerfs buffs terran, and what do they buff? TANKS! Bring back sc1 tanks plz, I wanna mech.