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Clues are needed because without them, assuming everyone gets good at the game it will be extremely hard to pin some guys down. The reason some games go badly is because people rely on clues TOO much and don't look at people's reaction which is really what clues are good for imo. Clues are great when used to build a case you already have, not for accusing people. Looking at last game I'm sure everyone sees how much stupidity that resulted in.
Insane/Sane Cops and Millers are all better than Cover because they promote discussion amongst the town in a different way. Cops need to know what another cop did or how a RCd flipped before they can accurately call someone out which means they have to actually play the game smart and not do dumb shit like private roleclaim to someone they dont have any clue about. DTs also need infinite rolechecks. There really is no point in having the role if they can't rolecheck people whenever they need to. The basic formula of mafia is DT+Medic+Vanilla townie vs Mafia. Everything else after is just added fluff.
@Framer/Propagandist role: we had a similar thing in a games before but it was a power given to the Godfather. They could leave one fake clue, usually some kind of item they wanted to include in the night post. GF also had the power to "broadcast" messages to the town during the night (usually funny stuff or threats to specific people).
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I dont really care that much about the setup at this point. The only thing Id really like is autokill to anyone that doesnt vote, mafia or towie.
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I'd really like it if we could just have smaller games with less retards.
Quite frankly that's all that needs to be done.
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On July 21 2009 09:25 L wrote:
I'd really like it if we could just have smaller games with less retards.
Quite frankly that's all that needs to be done.
Pretty much, it boils down to this. We need better balanced activity in the threads (our AC for games is actually through the roof), less stupid trolling and flaming, and less people.
Also, I think at this point introducing new roles is a bad idea.
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On July 21 2009 08:19 Ace wrote:
Clues are needed because without them, assuming everyone gets good at the game it will be extremely hard to pin some guys down. The reason some games go badly is because people rely on clues TOO much and don't look at people's reaction which is really what clues are good for imo. Clues are great when used to build a case you already have, not for accusing people. Looking at last game I'm sure everyone sees how much stupidity that resulted in.
Insane/Sane Cops and Millers are all better than Cover because they promote discussion amongst the town in a different way. Cops need to know what another cop did or how a RCd flipped before they can accurately call someone out which means they have to actually play the game smart and not do dumb shit like private roleclaim to someone they dont have any clue about. DTs also need infinite rolechecks. There really is no point in having the role if they can't rolecheck people whenever they need to. The basic formula of mafia is DT+Medic+Vanilla townie vs Mafia. Everything else after is just added fluff.
@Framer/Propagandist role: we had a similar thing in a games before but it was a power given to the Godfather. They could leave one fake clue, usually some kind of item they wanted to include in the night post. GF also had the power to "broadcast" messages to the town during the night (usually funny stuff or threats to specific people).
Actually last game the number of sane/insane cops was unknown, so really knowing what other DTs did wouldn't really have helped there. If you set the number before hand, then it could work. My thing with cover is that in the past, we've had a lot of role checking vets which resulted in big debates and big name players just getting killed early. Cover gets rid of that problem. Although the downside of cover is that encourages the DTs to work behind the scenes, which is something we might not like. DTs need infinite checks, but I know this has been strongly opposed in the past. If the insane DT system is used, then DTs NEED infinite role checks. 3 role checks is not enough and the way we always restrict DT checks to only after day 2 really hinders their ability to get started figuring stuff out.
The basic formula is DT Medic Green + mafia, but in a large game vigis or a liberal double lynch system with few restrictions is necessary. Otherwise we have issues on killing a large number of mafia. Especially in this current game: when you have 8 mafia for a 38 player game, you need a way to eliminate mafia before you start dying off too fast.
Which game(s) had the a framer/propagandist-like role? And how did that turn out?
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You don't need to know the # of DTs in the game. What I meant by that was the Cop just has to figure out which of the two he is (because both have to exist in the same game). If you know what another DT did, you could do the same thing and figure out your alignment from there.
Role checking vets is just part of the game. It happens. Thats why you see millers, insane/sane cops and Godfathers - all of which do a better job of adding discussion to the game than Cover ever will. You need big debates about facts and motives or else the game will be terrible and the last game shows you why when they stopped doing that.
I've almost always been in favor of infinite role checks. Honestly I don't know where the idea of limiting DT role checks started but it had to be in combination with something else. As for 8 mafia in a 30 player game I agree the town needs a way to kill them off without having to lynch a lot. Vigis and Dbl lynch are always needed in that case or as you've implied the town is going to be massacred.
I only remember the Godfather using the fake clue thing like twice, probably because it's not easy to always figure out what clues tie to what mafia and then twist it correctly. As for the announcement thing that was rarely used.
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On July 21 2009 14:36 Ace wrote:
You don't need to know the # of DTs in the game. What I meant by that was the Cop just has to figure out which of the two he is (because both have to exist in the same game). If you know what another DT did, you could do the same thing and figure out your alignment from there.
What I meant was the number of insane DTs. If you do not know the number of sane/insane DTs, then even if you know someone else's results, you can't know your alignment since there could be two insane DTs or whatnot. Anyway this isn't too big of a problem. I see your point with cover. You can't really discuss motive when using that mechanism. It probably adds the wrong kind of doubt that we want. But definitely infinite role checks. I think we're on the same boat there.
As I see that you haven't made many critical comments about framer/propagandist, would it be appropriate to add it just for fun/comic relief? (Framer actually could serve a purpose though).
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well yea. I doubt that role could really be game breaking and if we ever start playing themed games that role will obviously be well received. It's just that we have issues with just getting people to remain active when they don't get the current Blue roles so they never get used to their full potential.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
I would like to see Caller's game happen, with whatever rules he wants to set. I don't think it's necessary to have such a big discussion like this 
Actually the one discussion I would like to have is having smurfing compulsory in the next game. This can easily be arranged in a number of ways;
1) Everyone creates their own smurf, pms me with the details and ill add them to the forum
2) I create 100 accounts called Mafia_1 ... Mafia_100 and everyone customizes their profile (accounts are re-given out each game)
3) I create 100 accounts called Mafia_THUNDERSTORM etc and players can customize their profiles (accounts can also be re-given out each game)
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United States2186 Posts
The problem with hosts doing stuff on their own is that it's really really hard to balance stuff out while promoting good new ideas on your own. Out of 9 games made solo, only 2 have had solid balance (chuiu game 2 bc's 1st game); Chuiu's is really tough to say objectively, as it had so many bizarre occurrences that warped the outcome, while BC says he got extremely lucky in his game being somewhat balanced (even then there were many role problems). I know back when I was starting out I had a whole game planned that as I look at it right now it would be a disaster.
I think Callers game will happen still. Don't see any reason why it shouldn't; but so long as there are 2 games (which will probably happen) there should be coordination between them.
And I (and so far everyone else) who's said anything is up for a smurf game. It sounds delightful and extremely amusing. Option 1 seems the best; I'm sure seeing whos who afterwards would be hilarious as it's easier to tell people apart (another plus).
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On July 21 2009 16:17 Plexa wrote:I would like to see Caller's game happen, with whatever rules he wants to set. I don't think it's necessary to have such a big discussion like this Actually the one discussion I would like to have is having smurfing compulsory in the next game. This can easily be arranged in a number of ways; 1) Everyone creates their own smurf, pms me with the details and ill add them to the forum 2) I create 100 accounts called Mafia_1 ... Mafia_100 and everyone customizes their profile (accounts are re-given out each game) 3) I create 100 accounts called Mafia_THUNDERSTORM etc and players can customize their profiles (accounts can also be re-given out each game)
I am up for a smurf game, but option 2 would just drive me crazy. I already have problems with confusing people with somewhat similar names (for the longest time I kept confusing malongo and mandalor, sorry guys). Accounts only differentiated by a number? I would spend all day hunting for clues for Mafia_15 when it was really Mafia_5 I thought was suspicious......
Either one of 1 or 3 would be fine by me though, depending on if you think it's easier to distribute account names each game or add smurf names to the forum each game.
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
A smurf game would be quite excellent indeed.
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I, too, mixed up mandalor and malongo at first, and L and LTT kind of blended together.
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Also, I thought cover was a lot better than having millers / insane DTs because there was actually strategy/planning/thinking to it rather than just odds.
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I think a smurf game sounds awesome. I would make a name that's easier to type 
I don't know too much about balance but I hope we can leave the Mad Hatter role in. It's prob my favorite role and it has a lot of potential.
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On July 22 2009 04:17 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:I think a smurf game sounds awesome. I would make a name that's easier to type I don't know too much about balance but I hope we can leave the Mad Hatter role in. It's prob my favorite role and it has a lot of potential.
I have something like that in my game-Red Army Demoman
-he acts like a combo of a suicide bomber as well as a meth dealer.
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One problem of smurfing...is player imbalance. I don't think we want a repeat of Chuiu's last game where all the good players were on the town side. Would smurf accounts be completely anonymous or would the host know who is who just so we don't end up with an all-star mafia/town team?
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
On July 22 2009 05:40 Incognito wrote:
One problem of smurfing...is player imbalance. I don't think we want a repeat of Chuiu's last game where all the good players were on the town side. Would smurf accounts be completely anonymous or would the host know who is who just so we don't end up with an all-star mafia/town team?
I think it would be best if it were double blind. Since it's a smurf game I don't think it'd be as easy even if all the good players were on town side.
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Option 3)
I want a RAD NAME.
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EPT
