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I need to round our Hapa's post on me, looks like he missed a few of my posts.
I made the yolo team here in the game. I think it is relevant to read the next few posts after mine as I interacted with Vivax and explained where that team came from. Hapa choose not to include that post.
This post was in response to Hapa's case on Vivax
On November 27 2020 14:20 Tictock wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2020 07:00 Hapahauli wrote:
The point is that in addition to having this attitude of "lets lynch any one of these people", he also takes opposition to town's attempt to consolidate on the Grack lynch. It is the combination of these two things that is anti-town, because he shits on Town's one effort to consolidate while providing no alternative. It's purely criticism as opposed to anything constructive.
This bit reads as a bit disengenuis. Vivax's post was trying to tell Rayn (who was not his pick as Mayor) who he wanted to see flip.
I also find it a bit funny he calls this...
That looked like a decent catch on Vivax there Trfel but I can't quite substantiate it from Vivax's filter (I see him going back and forth on Jock and even says he'd shoot FF or Sho). Please feel free to show me what I missed.
attacking Trfel's read.
Not caught up yet, and more or less just waking up so might have to grab coffee and food soon.
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This is incredibly biased...
I can't help but notice the explosion between Hapa and Vivax AFTER I post an association case on them.
In fairness this is why I waited when I saw Hapa not taking stands after Rayn/Hapa/My discussion about his claim to see if he would go somewhere as well as see if Vivax was going to post.
Now I feel like there is a bunch of bullshit I need to sift through
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On December 01 2020 04:57 Trfel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2020 01:44 Hapahauli wrote:Second, how much do you know about my scum play? This question likely has a follow-up once you answer. Again, no rush. When I played with you in Holy Guardians 2, I had sat down and read a lot of your games. I had in my notes: + Show Spoiler +"TL Database has 2016 game. Probably too old to matter, but relatively inactive/passive play in 2 page filter. 2020 game in Emergency Quarantine Mafia - persona is more direct, confident, and aggressive. Still has bouts of "sadness", but more in a "pouty" way rather than an "unconfident" way. Town persona tends to be much more "unconfident" and "self-aware". As a result of the notes, I had you pegged as town super early and confidently in HG2. This game as well. Although to add to meta reasons, I think your JK claim is super town and horrifically risky to come from mafia. No reason to risk a binary lynch like that, or no reason to open a can of worms in the event of a 4th blue claim. Claim aside, I guess I'm curious about your characterization of my play. You described my mafia play as "passive," can I ask what that means to you? Because I think my mafia play is more active, more aggressive than my town play. I don't know what to do when I have no read to push, so I'm always pushing something. Over-aggression is a problem with my scum play I need to fix. I suppose maybe it doesn't mean a ton if this is a perception you had from before the game, it just feels weird that your strong townread of me seems based off of a faulty scum meta? Or am I missing something?
Haven't you had some weak scum games lately?
Part of why I am solid on you being town here is that while I know you can pull off solid effort and posting as mafia you are far too unsure and willing to reconsider here.
Though I also think the way you were acting prior to your claim felt very genuine. Not sure how to articulate it well.
Rayn is also clearly town here to be from how invested and "honed in" he is on Hapa when his claim doesn't make sense.
FF is also confirmed town at this point.
This game is pretty solved from my PoV. Calling me mafia is seeming to be the get out of the noose card for mafia right now.
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On December 01 2020 05:11 Trfel wrote:
I have a few thoughts but nothing more to really add on top of what's already been said. Of course this changes if people suspect me, but given that no one seems to currently, it feels more valuable for me to watch what happens undisturbed.
With that said:
##Vote: Hapahauli
I can certainly understand why Hapahauli, as a claimed blue, wouldn't be killed. But it's so hard for me to understand why he wouldn't be roleblocked. And while I'm uncertain, I doubt the presence of three blues in the setup, especially given the bodyguard mechanic.
With that said: would someone be willing to explain to me what raynpelikoneet is saying about Hapahauli the past few pages that's so condemning? As I said on the last page, it seems to come down to role mechanics that I thought worked differently, but I seem to be horribly misreading.
He is kinda on the same boat as me.
Hapa claimed mafia would not kill him because they might set off his bomb on mafia!Vivax. Rayn was rightfully hounding down that that makes no sense when they knew he didn't have a bomb down and could RB and kill him without any worry.
The only mechanical kink in that theory is that mafia knowing you are JK might be trying to play around protection. However this was still Happa's initial suggestion for why mafia would not kill him.
While I find that all telling, I think looking at Happa's overall play it is clear his thinking is fualty if he was in fact Hatter. First he contradicts himself saying he didn't want mayor because getting shit let's hit use the role, but he later attempts to clearly breadcrum his role. I also think him using his blue claim as an excuse to drop off the game for awhile is telling.
Then you can add in my point about his clearly having a strong scum read on Vivax at the start of day, they spends a few posts going "I don't know who is mafia, I keep flip flopping on Rayn" after several pages of defending his claim to me and rayn
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Let's not get too hung up on mechanics and setup. It is a bit too much WIFOM to be useful in a theoritical sense.
Much better to try and take a look at the player actions, behavior around their claim, and how they attempted to use their role.
However I will note that Bodyguard is similar to named town role AND acts as protection for mayor. I could add on but again I do not think pure mechanics should decide this as it is ultimately speculative until postgame
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On December 01 2020 06:01 Fecalfeast wrote:
Arguing a claim based on game balance when we've already had a cult leader flip is not a good argument in my opinion and honestly hapa is making sense to me and his restraint from trying to take rayn down helps my opinion of him as well.
We still have a day so for now I'm putting my vote on TT to see how it suits me
As long as you remember that this is Majority lynch so we have to consolidate by EoD.
I skipped over it but I saw Vivax posting some dangerous nonsense about a no lynch or a JK play saving the day. These are not good ideas to play around.
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Are Mafia able to hold their KP?
I did not see this in the OP. Assuming they have to shoot then if we lynch mafia Trfel has a chance to prevent KP and confirm mafia.
I doubt I will move off Hapa/Vivax here, Vivax is the "safe" lynch since everyone seems to agree he should be mafia.
I won't vote anyone else.
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On December 01 2020 08:38 Hapahauli wrote:
If the game is solved from your perspective, you should be completely indifferent to killing me or Vivax.
Was still catching up, this is correct.
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On December 01 2020 08:55 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2020 08:41 Tictock wrote:On December 01 2020 05:11 Trfel wrote:
I have a few thoughts but nothing more to really add on top of what's already been said. Of course this changes if people suspect me, but given that no one seems to currently, it feels more valuable for me to watch what happens undisturbed.
With that said:
##Vote: Hapahauli
I can certainly understand why Hapahauli, as a claimed blue, wouldn't be killed. But it's so hard for me to understand why he wouldn't be roleblocked. And while I'm uncertain, I doubt the presence of three blues in the setup, especially given the bodyguard mechanic.
With that said: would someone be willing to explain to me what raynpelikoneet is saying about Hapahauli the past few pages that's so condemning? As I said on the last page, it seems to come down to role mechanics that I thought worked differently, but I seem to be horribly misreading. He is kinda on the same boat as me. Hapa claimed mafia would not kill him because they might set off his bomb on mafia!Vivax. Rayn was rightfully hounding down that that makes no sense when they knew he didn't have a bomb down and could RB and kill him without any worry. The only mechanical kink in that theory is that mafia knowing you are JK might be trying to play around protection. However this was still Happa's initial suggestion for why mafia would not kill him. While I find that all telling, I think looking at Happa's overall play it is clear his thinking is fualty if he was in fact Hatter. First he contradicts himself saying he didn't want mayor because getting shit let's hit use the role, but he later attempts to clearly breadcrum his role. I also think him using his blue claim as an excuse to drop off the game for awhile is telling. Then you can add in my point about his clearly having a strong scum read on Vivax at the start of day, they spends a few posts going "I don't know who is mafia, I keep flip flopping on Rayn" after several pages of defending his claim to me and rayn "I'm in the same boat as Trfel, who at one point voted Hapa for mechanic-related reasons"... Show nested quote +On December 01 2020 08:48 Tictock wrote:
Let's not get too hung up on mechanics and setup. It is a bit too much WIFOM to be useful in a theoritical sense.
Much better to try and take a look at the player actions, behavior around their claim, and how they attempted to use their role.
However I will note that Bodyguard is similar to named town role AND acts as protection for mayor. I could add on but again I do not think pure mechanics should decide this as it is ultimately speculative until postgame ...but let's not overly focus on mechanics guys! That would be bad for town!
I was saying Rayn is in the same boat as me, keep up with my past self!
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On December 01 2020 09:11 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2020 09:05 Tictock wrote:
Are Mafia able to hold their KP?
I did not see this in the OP. Assuming they have to shoot then if we lynch mafia Trfel has a chance to prevent KP and confirm mafia.
I doubt I will move off Hapa/Vivax here, Vivax is the "safe" lynch since everyone seems to agree he should be mafia.
I won't vote anyone else. It doesn't matter whether or not mafia can hold KP or not. Even if they can, the effect of mafia holding KP (assuming we lynch mafia today) is that town gets an extra lynch. i.e. assuming Vivax gets lynched today: N3 playerlist: - Rayn (Town according to TT perspective) - Trfel (JK according to TT perspective) - Hapa (Likely mafia according to TT perspective) - FF (Confirmed town) - TT If Trfel JK's me and I hold KP it is still optimal play for town to lynch me, since it would be 1 mafia v. 4 town on D4.
Humm haven't thought through this angle
I was more thinking the situation where Trfel JKs someone, mafia no shoots, and then used that to push whoever was JK'd.
Of course all of this is somewhat moot if we do not lynch mafia.
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On December 01 2020 09:16 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2020 09:13 Tictock wrote:On December 01 2020 08:55 Hapahauli wrote:On December 01 2020 08:41 Tictock wrote:On December 01 2020 05:11 Trfel wrote:
I have a few thoughts but nothing more to really add on top of what's already been said. Of course this changes if people suspect me, but given that no one seems to currently, it feels more valuable for me to watch what happens undisturbed.
With that said:
##Vote: Hapahauli
I can certainly understand why Hapahauli, as a claimed blue, wouldn't be killed. But it's so hard for me to understand why he wouldn't be roleblocked. And while I'm uncertain, I doubt the presence of three blues in the setup, especially given the bodyguard mechanic.
With that said: would someone be willing to explain to me what raynpelikoneet is saying about Hapahauli the past few pages that's so condemning? As I said on the last page, it seems to come down to role mechanics that I thought worked differently, but I seem to be horribly misreading. He is kinda on the same boat as me. Hapa claimed mafia would not kill him because they might set off his bomb on mafia!Vivax. Rayn was rightfully hounding down that that makes no sense when they knew he didn't have a bomb down and could RB and kill him without any worry. The only mechanical kink in that theory is that mafia knowing you are JK might be trying to play around protection. However this was still Happa's initial suggestion for why mafia would not kill him. While I find that all telling, I think looking at Happa's overall play it is clear his thinking is fualty if he was in fact Hatter. First he contradicts himself saying he didn't want mayor because getting shit let's hit use the role, but he later attempts to clearly breadcrum his role. I also think him using his blue claim as an excuse to drop off the game for awhile is telling. Then you can add in my point about his clearly having a strong scum read on Vivax at the start of day, they spends a few posts going "I don't know who is mafia, I keep flip flopping on Rayn" after several pages of defending his claim to me and rayn "I'm in the same boat as Trfel, who at one point voted Hapa for mechanic-related reasons"... On December 01 2020 08:48 Tictock wrote:
Let's not get too hung up on mechanics and setup. It is a bit too much WIFOM to be useful in a theoritical sense.
Much better to try and take a look at the player actions, behavior around their claim, and how they attempted to use their role.
However I will note that Bodyguard is similar to named town role AND acts as protection for mayor. I could add on but again I do not think pure mechanics should decide this as it is ultimately speculative until postgame ...but let's not overly focus on mechanics guys! That would be bad for town! I was saying Rayn is in the same boat as me, keep up with my past self! You quoted Trfel's post, not Rayn's. Keep up with yourself m8.
Yes, Trfel's post asking about Rayns read ..
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On December 01 2020 09:18 Hapahauli wrote:
You haven't thought anything too deeply through, have you?
Yes and No
I have clearly been catching up. I probably should have condensed my posts and not made a bunch of while reading reaction posts.
Since talk between us is getting antagonistic I am going to stop directly responding. We seem to have resigned to live in world's where the other is mafia.
I think I have made my overall position clear as well as tried to explain why I am thinking how I am.
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I am considering switching to Vivax. No real reason not to I just feel uneasy doing so being pressured by a mafia read?
Like does me moving a vote really prove that much?
I am gunna sit on my hands in response to pressure right now till I make up my mind.
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Mafia can no shoot so we cannot use JK to confirm someone as mafia.
I don't see a problem with JK confirming someone as town though if a kill does go through.
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On December 01 2020 11:01 Trfel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2020 11:00 Tictock wrote:
Mafia can no shoot so we cannot use JK to confirm someone as mafia.
I don't see a problem with JK confirming someone as town though if a kill does go through. This is technically correct, but as Hapahauli was saying, if mafia chooses to no-kill, then town gains an extra mislynch. So it's the same result in the end. Unless you're saying mafia is allowed to store up their shots and use them all at once, but that's a really stupid mechanic that I've never actually seen in a game.
Hapa was still talking about confirming mafia at the top of the page.
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Props to you Greymist, I refrained from making separate posts
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On December 01 2020 13:29 raynpelikoneet wrote:
From town perspective though; Lets say we lynch Vivax and he flips mafia. Trfel jails Hapa (or whoever) and the NK goes through. How is the game solved?
Mechanically it would mean one of You or Me is mafia.
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On November 30 2020 10:28 Tictock wrote:
Like I know you are down to a pool of Rayn/Vivax/Myself, assuming I read ok
So I suppose I would have to accept a Rayn/Vivax world
Humm, is this so crazy?
It suppose it could explain some things.
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On December 01 2020 14:29 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2020 14:26 Tictock wrote:On December 01 2020 13:29 raynpelikoneet wrote:
From town perspective though; Lets say we lynch Vivax and he flips mafia. Trfel jails Hapa (or whoever) and the NK goes through. How is the game solved? Mechanically it would mean one of You or Me is mafia. Yeah so hows the game solved?
I mean from my PoV...
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Lynching Vivax is actually always the play here.
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EPT
