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[M][N] Holy Guardians - Chapter 2 - Page 24

Forum Index > TL Mafia
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raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43268 Posts
April 07 2020 13:44 GMT
#461
Lurkedy-lurk-lurk.
table for two on a tv tray
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
April 07 2020 13:59 GMT
#462
You're the best
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
April 07 2020 14:00 GMT
#463
In all seriousness, I hammed it up a bit too hard last night. Sorry... I can be a cocky bastard.

a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43268 Posts
April 07 2020 14:00 GMT
#464
ope.
table for two on a tv tray
raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43268 Posts
April 07 2020 14:01 GMT
#465
I even misquoted that
table for two on a tv tray
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
April 07 2020 14:02 GMT
#466
I'm meta-diving Shockey. Care to assist?

Emergency Quarantine (2020) – Parity Cop
Newbie Student XXX (2019) – VT
Chill Hop Mafia (2018) – Mafia Roleblocker
- https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/THdZcKQ8BxbWy
Heroes of the Storm Mafia (2017) – VT
Resistance (2015) - VT
- Odd mechanic
Starfox 64 Mini Mafia (2015) – VT
- 5 player (1 mafia) game
II Cannons Mini Mafia – VT
- Odd mechanic
Mafia in the Himalayas – Mafia Framer
- https://www.quicktopic.com/51/H/3rcKficCDHd
Witchraft III Mini Mafia – VT
- Odd mechanic
Generic Boring Mafia - Mafia
- https://www.quicktopic.com/51/H/cRwrGTFRP7t
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43268 Posts
April 07 2020 14:05 GMT
#467
I am thinking if i should post everything what i think or not, do you think i should do that?
table for two on a tv tray
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
April 07 2020 14:11 GMT
#468
From what perspective?

- That you are afraid of getting shot and or informing mafia on their Night Kill?

- That you feel burnt out?

- That you feel vindictive against me for the dickish lack of D1 effort I put into the game?
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
April 07 2020 14:12 GMT
#469
I mean, try-hard hapa always supports more discussion. I don't think there are downsides to posting what you think, especially since this is an all VT game (no blue snipes), and this isn't exactly the most active game in the world.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43268 Posts
April 07 2020 14:12 GMT
#470
from your perspective, whatever you think that is
table for two on a tv tray
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
April 07 2020 14:13 GMT
#471
From whatever perspective, I think you should post. How I argue depends on the lens through which you look at this game.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43268 Posts
April 07 2020 14:28 GMT
#472
Fine. First of all i mostly wanted to play with you so i am annoyed at what you did during the eod1, regardless the out outcome. So fuck you for that.

I tend to play differently than other people. I dont like games where you lynch the low volume posters and most likely win. That translates towards me trying to figure out the "high-profile" mafia players over random lurk-shit-scum, if you know what i mean. That additionally translates to me being super bad and going ham on people like Palmar when they play a low-post-count play (which i am not used to that much) but are right. That's also why i don't play anymore, i can't justify me playing and trying to put shit together just to find out we lost because 20 people didnt play and 6 of those we lynched were townies. Idk if you can see my pov but yeah, that's it.

Talking about people who did bad shit without reason.

I think your case on BC is good, the way he handles shockeyy in comparison to his other scumreads that "talked but didn't contribute anything towards the game". I might have missed your point on D1 or you might have not made it clear enough, but i don't care. It's a good case and BC is probably mafia and i am just super bad this game.

If it is not BC it's gonna be shockeyy, i genuinely find it "why the fuck would mafia do that????" kind of thing when he needed to justify his vote on you over Jock, but if we talk about things that make no sense then yeah that makes no fucking sense at all. Why would anyone ever NOT want to vote for their scumread over another person if the other person is not that scummy?

Third is Trfel. There are things that are just plain out bad. No matter how his case on me was, it was based on "yo rayn isn't playing like this in situation X but i dont know how rayn plays in situation X"... Why.... how can you even say that?

I know there is one mafia left and at least two of those people are town, it's fucked up for me because of what i tend to do and how i form my scumreads. I tend to think people make the best choices available and for... or like if i think about Jock, the mafia has to be you (or Trfel), because that's the correct play as mafia. Basically you're never gonna lose.

But dumbass logic (that's often right) says BC -> Shockeyy.

Chezinu is super town, i agree on what you said on him 12312313%. No bus there.
You're probably town too.
Vivax is town and i think he is faking a read on BC atm just to stay alive, which is dumb but hey he does that.
table for two on a tv tray
raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43268 Posts
April 07 2020 14:34 GMT
#473
On April 07 2020 06:23 Hapahauli wrote:
BloodyCobber looks the worst to me for three reasons:
1) As I mentioned on Day 1, his Shockey read was pulled out of his ass, and is inconsistent with his approach to the game and general townie paranoia.
2) His behavior around Jock and the lynch, at face value, are very pro-Mafia.
3) His post activity surrounding Jock are again, at face value, consistent with an uncoordinated and unsophisticated mafia team.



The Read on Shockey

I'm just going to re-summarize my case for the sake of completeness, and hopefully give some people who were discounting my initial words some more clarity on why I felt as strongly as I did.

Playing as mafia is about creating an illusion of contribution. Contributing to discussion without actually contributing. Taking bold and hard stances without actually taking a risk. Covering your interactions with your partner just enough to avoid suspicion, while allowing you to coordinate with each other towards mafia objectives.

In addition, mafia also play with extra information. They know who's town. Whereas townies often display paranoia, since they are constantly uncertain, especially in the early game.

With these two points in mind, take a look at BC's read list.

Show nested quote +
On April 05 2020 15:18 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
Town
Bloodyc0bbler

Leaning town
Shockeyy
Jockmcplop

Null
Chezinu
Rayn
Rels

Lean scum
Vivax

Scum
Trfel
Hapa


Firstly, considering what Shockey had done until this point in the game, a slight-town read is not consistent with a paranoid town mindset. Take a look at Shockey's filter and look from the beginning to post #117. There's very little in there. So much so that multiple players were making remarks that Shockey was just coasting along and not contributing much. BC later even acknowledges this and re-bumps Shockey down to null, likely in an attempt to save face (spoilerized below).

Instead, his first read list is consistent with a mafia-mindset who knows that Shockey is town, and is naturally not-all-that-suspicious.

+ Show Spoiler +
On April 06 2020 05:06 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
The how is purely I didnt find his entrance as jarring mixed with people i had scum reads focusing him.

ATM id drop him down to Rels / Chez territory of null read.

Here I will update my lists for you

Town
Bloodyc0bbler

Lean Town
Rayn
Vivax

Null
Rels
Shockeyy
Chezinu

Lean scum
Jock
trfel

Scum
Hapa



There is a world (with how you are currently being active) where I could see my read on you being wrong. So please keep up the posting =)


Secondly, and as explained before, the whole rationale behind the read is contrived bullshit. For that, we need to look at the "story" that BloodyCobbler is trying to tell about his town play. BloodyCobber is telling the story that he is reading player filters for the content that they are posting. He considers "substanceless" posting indicative of a mafia tell. Examples are abound:

Regarding his scumread on me (Hapa):
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2020 15:23 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
His posts scream posting for sake of posting. Asking questions is great, but only if followed by content. I dont like what ive seen thus far.

Interesting question though ;p


On Trefel:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2020 19:03 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
On April 05 2020 18:53 Vivax wrote:
On April 05 2020 18:22 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
On April 05 2020 18:18 raynpelikoneet wrote:
On April 05 2020 15:15 Jockmcplop wrote:
On April 05 2020 15:07 Trfel wrote:
On phone and in bed, so not going to quote you Jockmcplop, hope that's okay.

I don't care about Vivax townreading me because I don't care too much about townreads in general (especially at this stage in the game) and I thought I knew why he was townreading me (since he later explained why, it turns out I was only partially correct, ah well).

I don't really know how to respond to the rest of your post so let me know if I missed something. But it seems that a key point is my "case's" first point on raynpelikoneet. It's not that he has an implied read that is suspicious, it's that the implied/joke read changes. Townies usually approach mafia from two perspectives: treat everyone as town until there is reason to suspect otherwise, or treat everyone as suspicious until they show otherwise. Raynpelikoneet's posts don't fit in either mindset.

That said, if I'm being honest, it's not a strong point at all and we all know this. I'm saying it's the most suspicious thing at that point in the game. Why'd I bring it up then, so people like you have something to talk about! I'd say it worked perfectly


hmm...

i quite like this logic even if I don't agree.


This is the post that made me change my mind. There are many many ways to attack this post in case Jock wants to do that, especially since i don't do any of what Trfel says here. Furthermore even if i did, it's no way of comparing that narrative to my early posting because i posted a joke and a bait to you. No reads lol.


TBH the post jock quoted here (especially the bolded part) is a reason i have a scum read on trfel atm.



Why does the bolded part make Trfel mafia?


What does it add to the thread? How is it helping us progress towards catching someone who is scum? What point does explaining how the game should be played, in relation to a player whos playstyle is a known quantity, to justify a hard stance read this early in the game?

Like, I havent played seriously for years, but what he posted is shit mafia have done for ages to try and blend in. Talking about how one should or shouldn't play makes you look like you are providing useful content when its instead just fluff.
If you take into consideration how hard he also was defending himself / reacting to general suspicion so early into the game gives me the read I have.


His stuff on Vivax is especially damning:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2020 18:23 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
On April 05 2020 18:20 raynpelikoneet wrote:
BC i don't really think there is much chance of Vivax being mafia.


Its why I have him as a scum lean. Play I dislike / view as bad (not saying it is the wrong way to play just that i dont like it) makes me lower you down until you do something that stands out. I am merely waiting for it. He has been more active since my original read, but he still needs to give real content to the thread.


... this post on vivax is suggestive that his "method" of early-game tells is just to look for people who seem "contentless" and re-evaluate them as the game goes on. He is willing to cast suspicion on play that he "dislike[s] / view[s] as bad" early on.


Given this mentality of reading for "substanceless posting", it is then inconceivable from a town-BC perspective that he would read Shockey's filter and come out with slightly town. Again, see Shockeyy's filter to post #117:

https://tl.net/forum/mafia/558350-holy-guardians-chapter-2?user=ShoCkeyy

There is NO. FUCKING. WAY. That he could genuinely read Shockey as having any substance. Therefore his read is bullshit. Mafia attempting to contribute bullshit reads, and thereby not contributing. Playing with extra information, and therefore knowing that Shockey is town rather than being suspicious of him.


I think this is a really good case.
table for two on a tv tray
raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43268 Posts
April 07 2020 14:36 GMT
#474
Looking at Hapa's filter, seems like i am just bad at english unless i am being told something like i am 5.
table for two on a tv tray
raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43268 Posts
April 07 2020 14:58 GMT
#475
And then he disappears meh.... It was my highlight talking actual mafia with hapa
table for two on a tv tray
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
April 07 2020 15:03 GMT
#476
I'm here! I'm here! Had a client call.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
April 07 2020 15:07 GMT
#477
Mafia-wise, I think we're pretty on the same page. I'm checking and double checking my suspicions, but it always comes back to BC.

Chez we agree on.

Vivax we agree on.

Shockey is certainly plausible, but I still find myself highly prefering BC. There are any number of ways to "make him look bad". He's super wishy-washy around the deadline, has a lot of difficulty producing hard reads, "Shock and Jock" both is an awesome scum-team name and their play is consistent with an uncoordinated scum-team... etc. But there are also some big points in his favor:
1) I've looked through his scum games, and he doesn't seem to have any problem developing hard reads on people. In fact, they are more prevalent throughout his games as mafia.
2) Jock's read on Shock appears much more scum-tunneling-town than scum-bussing-scum.
3) I gave Shock a lot of rope to develop a hard read, and he stayed very wishy-washy. I interpret this as genuine town confusion, and I'd expect mafia to take the "easy" way out and develop a hard read on BC.

I do need to look at Trfel, but on play alone, he has been so damn earnest with some of his posting.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
April 07 2020 15:14 GMT
#478
On April 07 2020 23:28 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Fine. First of all i mostly wanted to play with you so i am annoyed at what you did during the eod1, regardless the out outcome. So fuck you for that.

I tend to play differently than other people. I dont like games where you lynch the low volume posters and most likely win. That translates towards me trying to figure out the "high-profile" mafia players over random lurk-shit-scum, if you know what i mean. That additionally translates to me being super bad and going ham on people like Palmar when they play a low-post-count play (which i am not used to that much) but are right. That's also why i don't play anymore, i can't justify me playing and trying to put shit together just to find out we lost because 20 people didnt play and 6 of those we lynched were townies. Idk if you can see my pov but yeah, that's it.

Talking about people who did bad shit without reason.

I think your case on BC is good, the way he handles shockeyy in comparison to his other scumreads that "talked but didn't contribute anything towards the game". I might have missed your point on D1 or you might have not made it clear enough, but i don't care. It's a good case and BC is probably mafia and i am just super bad this game.

If it is not BC it's gonna be shockeyy, i genuinely find it "why the fuck would mafia do that????" kind of thing when he needed to justify his vote on you over Jock, but if we talk about things that make no sense then yeah that makes no fucking sense at all. Why would anyone ever NOT want to vote for their scumread over another person if the other person is not that scummy?

Third is Trfel. There are things that are just plain out bad. No matter how his case on me was, it was based on "yo rayn isn't playing like this in situation X but i dont know how rayn plays in situation X"... Why.... how can you even say that?

I know there is one mafia left and at least two of those people are town, it's fucked up for me because of what i tend to do and how i form my scumreads. I tend to think people make the best choices available and for... or like if i think about Jock, the mafia has to be you (or Trfel), because that's the correct play as mafia. Basically you're never gonna lose.

But dumbass logic (that's often right) says BC -> Shockeyy.

Chezinu is super town, i agree on what you said on him 12312313%. No bus there.
You're probably town too.
Vivax is town and i think he is faking a read on BC atm just to stay alive, which is dumb but hey he does that.


Feeeeeels.

It's funny thinking back to "ye-old-days of TL Mafia" circa 2014-15. There's part of me that expects to go into these games, roll town, and everyone insta-sheeps me and believes I'm town. But I don't remember or appreciate the crazy effort I put into those games until I start posting and then the "goddamnit why did I do this I have a life now" starts to enter my head. Then the hapa-meta cases drop and well... it goes downhill from there.

I had gone into D1 this game trying to channel my inner Palmar, which I have realized doesn't exist.

On April 07 2020 23:28 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Fine. First of all i mostly wanted to play with you so i am annoyed at what you did during the eod1, regardless the out outcome. So fuck you for that.


That's totally my bad, and I am sorry.

At the same time, I don't think I have the sanity to do what I used to do as town anymore. Mafia used to be a stress outlet, and I think I've found much healthier ways of expressing that outside of the forum.

I tend to play differently than other people. I dont like games where you lynch the low volume posters and most likely win. That translates towards me trying to figure out the "high-profile" mafia players over random lurk-shit-scum, if you know what i mean. That additionally translates to me being super bad and going ham on people like Palmar when they play a low-post-count play (which i am not used to that much) but are right. That's also why i don't play anymore, i can't justify me playing and trying to put shit together just to find out we lost because 20 people didnt play and 6 of those we lynched were townies. Idk if you can see my pov but yeah, that's it.


Oh yeah. That's definitely what you do. It's also the exact opposite of what I do. I have a very risk-averse approach to town and tend to go for low hanging fruit. But I do think that has helped us team up well over the years.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
April 07 2020 15:17 GMT
#479
You are also right about the "optimal play is to bus" thing. This lynch looks very different in the old days. There was this part of my mind that looked at Jocks posting as "too scummy to be scum... he can't be THAT blatant... can he?"

But we're in a different age with different players. I'll just treat this like mafiascum.net until proven otherwise
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43268 Posts
April 07 2020 15:18 GMT
#480
I think it's Trfel tbh. And i think it's bad
table for two on a tv tray
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