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[N] Uninspired Mafia

Forum Index > TL Mafia
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Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
April 10 2019 22:44 GMT
#4
/in
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
April 30 2019 23:46 GMT
#135
I think jock is mafia and bc is more mafia for defending(?? ? But also accusing???) him. Not much else to add really. Didn't even realise the game had even started.
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
April 30 2019 23:46 GMT
#136
On May 01 2019 08:35 Grackaroni wrote:
I'm voting Rels because he avoids early game a lot as mafia.


And also as town.
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
April 30 2019 23:52 GMT
#138
Oh did it only start today? That's fine then
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
April 30 2019 23:54 GMT
#139
Oh well nothing more to add really. I think jock is way out of character and the town read(s) are pretty unjustified here.
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
April 30 2019 23:58 GMT
#141
Oh legitimately wasn't
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
May 01 2019 00:00 GMT
#142
Wait wtf I've missed a whole day? This is why we do confirmation PMs people jesus christ. 5 pages in 24 hours? You guys are shit.
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
May 01 2019 00:03 GMT
#143
On May 01 2019 08:46 Holyflare wrote:
I think jock is mafia and bc is more mafia for defending(?? ? But also accusing???) him. Not much else to add really. Didn't even realise the game had even started.


You can disregard this because I've reread it and it didn't go down like this. BC still gave jock a bit of an out which I don't like but he's pretty much said stuff I was thinking about Jock's posting.

Minus points for grack not pointing this out.
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
May 01 2019 00:06 GMT
#145
What I got from Jock's mindset in his first mafia game is that he was afraid in the qt whenever someone called him out. He's used that, and the advice people gave him of "don't care what people say if they call you mafia" and gone to the other extreme scale of being bratty when called out. I'd associate that more with being new and mafia than Jock as town being lost on what to say. Especially with the insults to TL as a whole.
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
May 01 2019 00:07 GMT
#146
On May 01 2019 09:04 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 01 2019 08:46 Holyflare wrote:
On May 01 2019 08:35 Grackaroni wrote:
I'm voting Rels because he avoids early game a lot as mafia.


And also as town.

So do you think Grack has the wrong idea with voting him?


Not really the wrong idea just the wrong reasoning
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
May 01 2019 00:10 GMT
#147
Mz are you ever gonna take a stance on jock? You seem to be fannying around the subject contemplatively rather than deciding on him.
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
May 01 2019 01:00 GMT
#158
On May 01 2019 09:25 Grackaroni wrote:
Scum has a pretty natural tendency towards appeasement when under pressure. I don't think scum's first reaction to being accused would be to shit on the entire player base of the website and boast about getting night killed in the last game. I feel pretty confident at reading butt-hurt and he reeks of butt-hurt townie to me.




Zzzzz generic statements that never catch mafia/reliably find town or hold up to any kind of scrutiny when examined closely zzzz

What he counters with doesn't even make any sense. He's boasting about not being able to be read as mafia, being shot by mafia as town? That's implying he's too good for the website.... But he's using that at a point when people are calling him mafia.

So he's using a defence of him being better than everyone to prove absolutely nothing about why they are wrong other than some weak deterrent that only shifts people that read people in generic metrics (grack etc).
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
May 01 2019 01:41 GMT
#163
On May 01 2019 10:29 Jockmcplop wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 01 2019 08:54 Holyflare wrote:
Oh well nothing more to add really. I think jock is way out of character and the town read(s) are pretty unjustified here.


Out of character compared to when I was mafia?


Compared to when you were carefree, joking and a bit lost as town. Unless you've become a giant ego after 2 games for absolutely no reason and you've decided to laud it over everyone else my conclusion is that you're not a dick and this is bravado to try and appeal to people's emotions and sensibilities.
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
May 01 2019 01:42 GMT
#164
On May 01 2019 10:12 wherebugsgo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 01 2019 10:00 Holyflare wrote:
On May 01 2019 09:25 Grackaroni wrote:
Scum has a pretty natural tendency towards appeasement when under pressure. I don't think scum's first reaction to being accused would be to shit on the entire player base of the website and boast about getting night killed in the last game. I feel pretty confident at reading butt-hurt and he reeks of butt-hurt townie to me.




Zzzzz generic statements that never catch mafia/reliably find town or hold up to any kind of scrutiny when examined closely zzzz

What he counters with doesn't even make any sense. He's boasting about not being able to be read as mafia, being shot by mafia as town? That's implying he's too good for the website.... But he's using that at a point when people are calling him mafia.

So he's using a defence of him being better than everyone to prove absolutely nothing about why they are wrong other than some weak deterrent that only shifts people that read people in generic metrics (grack etc).


when does not making sense = scum?


See first sentence.
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
May 01 2019 02:04 GMT
#170
On May 01 2019 10:48 wherebugsgo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 01 2019 10:42 Holyflare wrote:
On May 01 2019 10:12 wherebugsgo wrote:
On May 01 2019 10:00 Holyflare wrote:
On May 01 2019 09:25 Grackaroni wrote:
Scum has a pretty natural tendency towards appeasement when under pressure. I don't think scum's first reaction to being accused would be to shit on the entire player base of the website and boast about getting night killed in the last game. I feel pretty confident at reading butt-hurt and he reeks of butt-hurt townie to me.




Zzzzz generic statements that never catch mafia/reliably find town or hold up to any kind of scrutiny when examined closely zzzz

What he counters with doesn't even make any sense. He's boasting about not being able to be read as mafia, being shot by mafia as town? That's implying he's too good for the website.... But he's using that at a point when people are calling him mafia.

So he's using a defence of him being better than everyone to prove absolutely nothing about why they are wrong other than some weak deterrent that only shifts people that read people in generic metrics (grack etc).


when does not making sense = scum?


See first sentence.


see your vote.

If you want to convince people that Jack is acting out of character you're gonna have to try harder. There are a whopping two games to base this on, and comparing to the town game I just don't see how you can come to this conclusion.

Jack clearly had at least a bit of an attitude and also self-awareness in the townie game:

Show nested quote +
On April 06 2019 11:06 Jockmcplop wrote:
Oh great I make one sarcastic comment about hf and he gets the nukes out, everyone else is screaming to murder him and they get nothing.
This is bullshit.


Show nested quote +
On April 06 2019 21:54 Jockmcplop wrote:
On April 06 2019 21:49 VisceraEyes wrote:
As far as Jock goes, early he seemed to be pretending to care about the thread and now he's saying he's JUST NOW getting around to reading. It feels like he's preemptively trying to excuse his lack of actual content before anyone brings it up. Smells of shit.


Or it could be that I wasn't really concentrating on this until just now, given that my earlier posts were just snarky comments.

Do you think I should have just carried on trying to be silly instead of attempting to read people?


So this I think tells us nothing.

There are other reasons I think which might be good to consider Jack scum but no one has really brought them up. Maybe I expect too much out of people too :p


If you think those posts are anything like this one then I'm afraid your reading comprehension needs some brushing up on. It's a quite obvious thing. Maybe it's a nuance to mere mortals but from an experienced veteran of mafia such as myself, the evidence you've provided is of a guy that is butt hurt but not cocky and certainly not saying he's above the entire site because everyone is so much worse than him.

Game 1 where he was mafia, read his QT. You can see it was all a facade and every time he got called out he was afraid it was the end of him. That's extremely understandable for someone new to mafia to feel when someone is pointing out your inconsistencies.

See game 2 where he was more concerned with fairness more than anything and, you know, calmly giving reads even when called out. Your quotes literally show a guy defending himself with matter of fact points in a cocky way.

See game 3. He gets called out. Everything people taught him in game 1 was to ignore the suspicion and fight back as if it meant nothing. Here he is trying but with the telltale way of fake bravado. No way he thinks he's above everyone on TL after 2 games where game 1 he thought he played badly but everyone complemented him and game 2 he got killed n1 and I don't think he picked out any of the mafia team at that point (could be wrong but don't think so).


He's classically over compensating and he's played his hand too early.
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
May 01 2019 08:46 GMT
#184
On May 01 2019 09:17 wherebugsgo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 01 2019 02:37 VisceraEyes wrote:
On May 01 2019 02:03 wherebugsgo wrote:
I'm going to bed and will be back in 7-8 hours. If anyone reads this and wants my opinion later, feel free to ask. Same goes if you're feeling like the game is going slowly; let's discuss what we want to do about it, or at least the minimum we've seen so far. We don't have enough participation yet for D1 to go well IMO, and it's not easy to convince absentees nor is it easy to get scum out talking if town isn't either.

Yeah I've got a question - is your resistance to the Jock lynch intentional or circumstantial? Like, I get that you're suspicious of MZ or whatever, but you say MZ "smells blood in the water", does that imply that you think Jock is town?


I'm 99% sure at this point if I do absolutely nothing to push a different lynch, Jock will continue to get suspicion and probably die. I'm giving him outs and the benefit of the doubt because I'm not confident he's scum. Honestly to me the weirdest thing he's done so far has been his last exit:

Show nested quote +
I gotta go to band practice I'll be back in a few hours


Only for him to never come back. It's what, 1 am in the UK? So we can't really expect him to come back and defend himself any time soon.

Anyway, my opinion has always been that having a single wagon on day 1 is rarely good. No need for me to contribute to that if I see something better, anyway.


I honestly have no idea why you're voting for Jock and it looks really suspicious. You're essentially coaching him and all his responses are still just as clueless and you think the most suspicious thing is that he didn't return from afking?
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
May 01 2019 12:15 GMT
#224
On May 01 2019 20:52 wherebugsgo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 01 2019 20:33 Pandain wrote:
@Wherebugsgo what were you trying to get from asking Jock about incognoto's guide? You were very insistant on it and it seemed like the most useless questions I've ever seen in my life.


I wanted two things; one was to see whether Jock's tone and response style would be natural and the other would be whether he would actually tell me something believable. Given that Jock is very new I would expect some synthesis of Incognito's guide because he would have been bound to have read it recently. If he's town and someone in the game is asking him, I'd expect him to take the time to understand why (and reread if necessary) especially when I was indicating to him that if he didn't shape up he'd likely die. His response that followed afterward indicated that he probably lied, because even if you skim that guide literally the #1 takeaway for townies is to establish innocence. This is also why I phrased the question the way I did. Emphasis mine:

Show nested quote +
On January 09 2012 15:49 Incognito wrote:
...
II. Town
  • Defining Mafia Characteristics
  • Priority #1: Establishing Your Innocence
  • Reading the Thread
  • Posting
  • Voting
  • Blue Roles/Roleclaims
  • Bad Townie or Mafia?


...
Priority #1: Establishing Your Innocence

So, you know how to look for mafia and are ready to smoke them out. But unfortunately, just knowing how to find mafia is not good enough. The other part of the equation is convincing the town that you’ve found them. While you may be correct, it takes more than your own vote to properly seal the deal and kill off the mafia.
As a townie, your number 1 priority is to establish your innocence.
...


by itself I don't think the lie is super alignment-indicative, but the fact that Jock actually answered that question about the guide but chose not to provide reads, in response to the same post where I specifically asked for them, is. He continued to attempt to stall for time afterward and has since disappeared.

There was also no point for town Jock to ignore posts and ask HF if HF thought he's out of character compared to when he was mafia (what kind of question is that? it accomplishes nothing and doesn't even make sense, HF's post was clearly about Jock being out of character when compared to being town) and saying this:

Show nested quote +

Or I was taking the piss because the first page or so is always boring....

Reads incoming I've got some time now


rather than just coming out with them.


Why didn't you just say this in the first place? :p
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
May 01 2019 12:23 GMT
#226
On May 01 2019 21:19 wherebugsgo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 01 2019 21:15 Holyflare wrote:
On May 01 2019 20:52 wherebugsgo wrote:
On May 01 2019 20:33 Pandain wrote:
@Wherebugsgo what were you trying to get from asking Jock about incognoto's guide? You were very insistant on it and it seemed like the most useless questions I've ever seen in my life.


I wanted two things; one was to see whether Jock's tone and response style would be natural and the other would be whether he would actually tell me something believable. Given that Jock is very new I would expect some synthesis of Incognito's guide because he would have been bound to have read it recently. If he's town and someone in the game is asking him, I'd expect him to take the time to understand why (and reread if necessary) especially when I was indicating to him that if he didn't shape up he'd likely die. His response that followed afterward indicated that he probably lied, because even if you skim that guide literally the #1 takeaway for townies is to establish innocence. This is also why I phrased the question the way I did. Emphasis mine:

On January 09 2012 15:49 Incognito wrote:
...
II. Town
  • Defining Mafia Characteristics
  • Priority #1: Establishing Your Innocence
  • Reading the Thread
  • Posting
  • Voting
  • Blue Roles/Roleclaims
  • Bad Townie or Mafia?


...
Priority #1: Establishing Your Innocence

So, you know how to look for mafia and are ready to smoke them out. But unfortunately, just knowing how to find mafia is not good enough. The other part of the equation is convincing the town that you’ve found them. While you may be correct, it takes more than your own vote to properly seal the deal and kill off the mafia.
As a townie, your number 1 priority is to establish your innocence.
...


by itself I don't think the lie is super alignment-indicative, but the fact that Jock actually answered that question about the guide but chose not to provide reads, in response to the same post where I specifically asked for them, is. He continued to attempt to stall for time afterward and has since disappeared.

There was also no point for town Jock to ignore posts and ask HF if HF thought he's out of character compared to when he was mafia (what kind of question is that? it accomplishes nothing and doesn't even make sense, HF's post was clearly about Jock being out of character when compared to being town) and saying this:


Or I was taking the piss because the first page or so is always boring....

Reads incoming I've got some time now


rather than just coming out with them.


Why didn't you just say this in the first place? :p


because I found it unlikely that explaining it to you would change my read on you

whereas now we have some evidence that Pandain cares about figuring out what's going on


Have you read Incognito's mafia guide?

Emphasis mine:


+ Show Spoiler +

Priority #1: Establishing Your Innocence

So, you know how to look for mafia and are ready to smoke them out. But unfortunately, just knowing how to find mafia is not good enough. The other part of the equation is convincing the town that you’ve found them. While you may be correct, it takes more than your own vote to properly seal the deal and kill off the mafia.
As a townie, your number 1 priority is to establish your innocence.
Why? Establishing your innocence does three things:

It gives you a credible platform from which you can push your agenda
It reduces the mafia’s options for pushing their agenda - they can’t attack you without some serious consequences
It reduces the number of viable mafia candidates - if the town thinks you are innocent that’s one less person to worry about


To elaborate:
1) It is hard to get people to listen to you if they are unsure of your motives. There are times where townies will ignore persuasive evidence based on an (irrational) fear that you might be pulling the wool over their eyes. Establishing your innocence allows you to focus on hunting the mafia instead of wasting energy defending yourself.

Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
May 01 2019 12:26 GMT
#227
Jock ff is a fine pool to lynch into. If you want to no lynch do it later when we have more complete information to solve the puzzle. Silly to do it when there's only posts to talk about.
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
May 01 2019 18:14 GMT
#257
That's my thing though
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