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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
You always claim you have too many townreads. But in this game, if you are town you should see 6 town and 2 mafia. So yes... Most people should look townish. I haven't seen you townread EVERYONE so far... so... I'm sure there are two left. Which brings me to: Would you care to update me on your current scum->town ranking of the players here? | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
With that I will now finally go to sleep. As time may be rare tomorrow, who do you suggest to look into first out of TT,DF and Skynx? I guess you are valueing Skynx highly, so could you maybe give me a summary how you came to this? And then I would start with one of the other two. Probably DF, as TT seems to be tied to skynx. DF seems to be upset with me though and I don't feel like revenge reading ^.^ I doubt anything useful will come from his. | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
At this point I'm actually a bit surprised how I'm suddenly everybodys darling. I guess I want to look i this progression too, as I feel kinda buddied here. Then again... lets flip Exo first... This certainly will provide interesting information. | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
On November 05 2016 03:06 NeverUnlucky wrote: I think mahrgell's post at EoD about the lynch being informative was really really scummy. Yeah, considering that I was probably the main driving force behind the Exo-lynch. Indeed. I have to conclude I'm scum now. Can I vote myself? On a more serious note: I was mainly going at the fact that with the lynch, which I really wanted to go through, there may more urgent topics or me to look into may pop up. Well... I'm honestly not sure if this mislynch is more informative than a scum lynch. I admire Exos EoD effort, but I have difficulty making sense of it. Let's add another point to my task list. I'm still in fmily time, but should work down my list from tmrw noon until EoN, just in case. | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
On November 05 2016 03:10 Calix wrote: I just wanted ExO/ Calix highlighted green since those are the confirmed alignments to me. But don't bother. Better to do it after the night kill tbh. Can you please do it before EoN? Reason should be obvious. Announcing to do analysis after EoN is something I certainly dislike. | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
On November 05 2016 03:13 NeverUnlucky wrote: Tictock was the main driving force followed by Rels. As ExO stated, you were the "3rd". Apathy noted. I answered this "you were third" thingie to Exo already. How about reading? | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
On November 05 2016 03:34 darthfoley wrote: Mahrgell is always talking about what he's gonna do: he's been supposed to look into me, skynx and TT 18 hours ago. How many times can you say you're gonna filter dive before you do it? Why are you asking other people who you should look into? Why is mahrgell claiming he would be "revenge reading?" He town leans me, so why would looking through my filter be useless? These posts were made 18 hours ago, and 1 hour ago. I DO NOT LIKE Dig deeper my friend. I announced yesterday afternoon that I'm with my family from yesterday evening until saturday noon. Yes, I had another posting spree in the night, when I sneaked away. Still my activity is drastically reduced compared to the first 26 hours right now. Expect me back tomorrow as noon. And you may also continue reading up on peoples lists. I appeared as toptown and close to toptown on several lists. And I don't consider this to be a good thing, tbh. | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
Getting suddenly toptowned by people for no apparent reason is something I dislike And at this point I'm kinda triggered by everyone going meta on me and talking about it being my first game. Maybe it is my hurt ego, but I consider everyone saying "I townread mahrgell, because it is his first game and he puts in effort" as going for the cheap route. Especially as people can townread me this way, while avoiding to actually talk about what I post about other players. | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
oh, and if I have sudden bursts of aggression, its CUZ FUCK HABS AND FUCK MICHEAL THERRIEN FOR RUINING MY NIGHT. AND CAN WE JUST LYNCH NU? Finished reading up, I 100% sign Calix last post, and will now go down my own task list. If anyone else wants to chat or has more urgent stuff... just tell me. Before I start though, some words at the Exo lynch. I reread his filter at night, after I had some distance. Reread my case. Thought where I could/should have gone elsewhere. Besides the last 10 minutes... I can't find it. Even when he started his last posting spree, I was still very convinced this was just some last ditch emotion attempt to save his skin, more reminding me of vivax day1 in dota. And this is kinda frustrating to me. I feel like "would lynch again". This shouldn't be, but is. But this kinda influences my view on how I see others peoples interactions with the Exo_ lynch. Still will look for inconsistencies there though. There were a few things disturbing me greatly towards the end of the day, but I want to reread this to check if this was just my first impression or if it remains when going over it with some distance. | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
Going to bed, I was sure this would result in a scumlean for me, but looking at his filter this seems from some kind of defence reflex when accused with weird arguments. Yes, I'm still salty when he made up shit like me "using OMGIS" after I responded to a very clear question.... But overall his filter reads really good and I can follow his line of thought. But in the evening I actually marked myself one post of him, which stuck out. Like probably the main post I got bad vibes from him. It was this one. Reading it from the filter doesn't make it special, but reading it fom thread progression is different. What really annoyed me there was, that at the time the post was made, the convo was basically all on Exo. I felt I had defended all of DF's attacks on me quite well and those issues should be solved. Yet he comes in, during the Exo convo, and feels like throwing in shit at me again and try to distract the exo train. If Exo_ would have flipped red, I think I would have went after DF for this post alone. But Exo_ was green. I simply can't see a mafia doing that post at that time in the thread, when they should be jerking off in mafia QT how great this mislynch is doing. I guess if it spawns a LynchTownExo vs LynchTownMahrgell debate this could be somehow still okay for Mafia, but... why risk votes scattering and who knows what happens next? At this time the EoD was still rather far away. So DF townlean for me now. | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
On November 05 2016 21:48 NeverUnlucky wrote: actually nvm, explain it, im wrong here and a still a lil intoxicated yesterday i played the habs drinking game (drink one can every time they get scored on) with my friends they lost 10-0 I was watching Habs. It was so sad. So I decided to read this thread for a bit. I read On November 05 2016 08:38 NeverUnlucky wrote: habs are getting rekt 3 goals in 4 mins I hated my life even more. I hate you. Please die.  | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
First: Calix said, when I asked her about Skynx: "I tr Skynx, because scum doesnt dare to play FU-all". Now I have only read Dota2, he was scum, and he used pretty much the same style from early on. From all the posts about Skynx meta I conclude, that this seems to be his town meta too... So... This isn't really swaying me in one direction or the other. ust to get this out of the way. --- + Show Spoiler + On November 04 2016 00:37 Skynx wrote: Bad stuff: Mahg Bolded gives two opposite directions of having a lean on Exo. "Wierd and pointless" for a scum perspective for overreaction and "pressure and get the game going" for town perspective. He looks quite uncertain about both regards by his specific wording. Then this happens: Exo replies yes. Mahg says nothing. Mind you this is like the only thing going on in the thread other than Calix vs NU. Then he goes after NU, accusing him of not following up on Exo vote and posts this. Where is your follow up on Exo then? --- Calix All started with this: Bolded sentence implies a scumread, as if someone thinks a sane person would do something illogical from a town perspective that would suggest it would be a logical move from scum perspective. This gets noticed, and called out by many including Exo, NU, Foreman and magh? if i remember correctly and see how much defence there is for "I didn't scumread Exo". I'm spoilering them cuz they are just so many. + Show Spoiler + On November 03 2016 03:23 Calix wrote: I'm not pushing ExO. That's being extremely generous. I never claimed that ExO was scummy, just illogical. I didn't even call him defensive. Where did you get that from? On November 03 2016 03:35 Calix wrote: This is another example of anti-town behaviour which I do not agree with. That is NOT the same as pro-scum. Allow me to clear that one up. Some people seem to be misinterpreting my stance on ExO as "scum-lean" when it's not. On November 03 2016 03:40 Calix wrote: Correction. I am not voting for ExO and you should be suspicious of me if I was given that you (correctly) think I am not scum-reading him. See my previous response for my take on anti-town/ pro-scum. On November 03 2016 04:01 Calix wrote: With regards to Point 2, he is much tamer when he is scum. I'm not claiming that this is a 100% guaranteed tell (he is also busy and this has led to him being more subdued in the past) but it's in the back of my mind. Well in my opinion, this is how it went down: - He asks why ExO is being overly defensive. - I call ExO anti-town. - He misrepresented my positions by claiming that he agreed that I was a) scum-reading ExO and b) scum-reading ExO due to being overly defensive. - I ask him where he interpreted this from as those are not my positions. - He denies claiming this. - I tell him that he literally said in his quote "I agree with Calix" This is where the scummy part is. He immediately backtracks from that position by saying "well I don't agree" and leaves it at that. That's scummy because this progression could be NU trying to plant ideas inside of my head without actually taking responsibility for having the idea. This is a compelling explanation because the ExO/ Calix discussion was still going on at this time. Thus, it's possible that he was trying to manipulate me into agreeing that ExO's behaviour is scummy. It's also possible because I am well-known for getting myself into tunnels so I am a viable target. So yeah, discuss and all that. On November 03 2016 05:10 Calix wrote: Fact-check. I never stated a scum-read on ExO. "all pushes are very subjective" - It's Day 1. Of course they are going to be 'subjective'. In fact, almost every single push in the history of mafia is 'subjective'. That doesn't mean you just do nothing since town has to be proactive to gain information, etc etc. This is all very obvious stuff so I won't drone on. With that in mind, your approach is very hard to understand to me. On November 03 2016 05:17 Calix wrote: Stating that someone's illogical =/= scum-read, Skynx dear. As for mahrgell, if you're using mind melds to inform a read then that's fine. But from my point of view, I don't get the same impression when it's vice versa. I would have to see you post things first that I agreed with before I would make that read. It's mostly been you agreeing with me if I recall correctly so I can see where you're coming from in terms of perspective. The whole thing is just so bullshit. Ofc you imply that he is scum. How can you say that he is being anti-town but at the same time say that "sorry guys he's anti-town but I'm not scumreading him"? What was the point of that in the end? Obviously nothing, you tried something as a scum and got called out and had to backpaddle for next 5 pages try to bury it. ---- Foreman Very dodgy vote for "overanalyzing = tryhard" or w/e. Gets called out by Calix, as his vote came after NU with very little reasoning behind. First, it was not a push. You voted Calix for absolutely nothing scum indicative then call his callout discrediting you. You didn't have a push. You voted, then made up reasons for it cuz the vote was shit: The so called "tryhard and overanalyzing" transformed into "going after low hanging fruit and motivating people to behave anti-town" - accuses 3 players of scummish behaviour/mistakes - no followup or conclusion. - Should this be read as "you are scum" or as a "you are town but suck"? - If it is the first, I would expect him to follow up on it. But he did not. - If it is the second, shouldn't it be in his interest to guide them to the light, instead of shading them with this aimless post. If you consider them shitty town mates, you need them! To me this posts fits a scum agenda. From a mafia POV: He spots legitimate weaknesses by townies, brings them up, casts doubt, but no follow up. --- Instead he followed it up with a case on TT. Uhm... Yeah. I can't really follow it. At this point TT was mostly untouched, and this was like a "Look, I'm a cool guy and go for someone no one ever went for" This isn't a bad thing, but when doing it I would have expected something more convincing. But this case reads weaker than what he brought against Calix or me just the post before. --- I'm split on his post on NU It kinda ignores the maybe-softconfirm on NU... But in general it voices a lot of concerns I have with NU. I can't make up my mind how to interpret doing such a post against a softconfirm (without detailing why you doubt the softconfirm). I can find good explanations and bad explanations, so maybe someone else wants to share his opinion on that. --- Finally a list post: Who doesn't love those. On November 05 2016 01:35 Skynx wrote: Summary Very town: mahg Townlean: Exo, Calix Not read at all: darth Bad but not thoroughly read:Foreman Nullish cuz neither town nor scum but bad: Rels Scum: TT, NU I pushed mahg earlier, his respons I liked. His lists later on I liked. He's not overly spammy. He's the most town imo. Exo's retaliation is a towntell from my perspective as he's been sr'd by almost everyone in the game, some of which for very bad reasons or no reasons at all. Its his right to retaliate. However not much arguments otherise, he's just been defending all game, I've been in this situation and can sympathise. Calix is quite null actually this was hard to decide. His early game has been bad a he should know better by now after 3 games here that him vs NU just results in them filling filters and nothing else. He needs more thorough read for sure. I'm mostly townreading him on tone which I'm kinda confident after playing with him often in past few months, which i know is bad but its the best i can do atm. Darth had that conspiracy about his opinion on me as a reason Rels and some others scumread, which doesn't mean anything imo but need to read him later on. I just got the feeling he's not been bad overall. I don't like Foreman's over-aggressive tone. He didn't get much going against him but why so aggressive then? He most definitely needs a re-read, I think he's been flying under the radar. Read above for opinions on Rels. Read cases in filter for opinions on NU and TT. I bolded the part that triggers me. Okay, he doubted me at first, later said he liked my reasoning in a oneliner. Suddenly I'm toptown. Wow, quick progression, but he posted an explanation why this is the case, okay. I bolded the key part. His next town is Exo. Didn't I just spent the largest part of my more recent post (at this time) volume on casing Exo? He even asks in his next post for cases on Exo and questions why I'm voting him. WTF? - You liked my posts? But hadn't yet found a case on exo? - You liked my posts, but don't know why I'm voting him? - You call me out for having no reasoning in my vote, but call me your toptown? --- + Show Spoiler + On November 05 2016 01:56 Skynx wrote: I'll build up on both TT and NU cases in the night to convince more people i guess. I feel like Exo lynch will only strengthen my point. Again, I bolded the part that struck me. (this same line is repeated few posts later) This posts starts a build up I really don't like. He never doubts for a moment that Exo could be scum. His best reasoning for Exo not being scum were some emotells on retaliation and everything. It's okay to believe Exo to be town. But 100% sure he is town? No way. But from this point on, Skynx started his campaign of: "I defended Exo all the time, Exo flips Green, I'm the good guy." He later on confirms my case to be convincing, yet his question at Exo is again "what you thing about foreman and Mahrgell?" What am I? Toptown? unreasoned voter? convincing? scumsus again? What a rollercoaster. --- I somehow liked this post. So I expected some critical thinking now. Some arguments. But I was let down. The problem I see is: in all those posts he confirms how he believes this to be a mislynch. He defends Exo_ lightly. But... I fail to see where he tried to change it. If he was so sure of this to be wrong, why not change the track? Again push for another lynch, convince people to hop off Exo, and follow Skynx read. This all reads like "please lynch Exo, so I'm proven correct that he is good". He started casting doubt on Exo voters motivation. But this is not what was needed here to save Exo. What was needed was another train. Throwing one vote around randomly isn't doing that. He was more concerned about being right than about changing the lynch. --- He later again picked a fight with NU. I actually share his concerns regarding NU again but now as I wrote this all up... This actually started with quite some time left before lynch. And he promised t make a case on NU during the night. Oh, great. Exactly what is needed to save someone you are sure to be town from a mislynch. I feel much worse about Skynx now than before writing. I originally felt like he was Neut, maximum a slight scumlean. But at this point I'm strongly scum leaning him. My case on Exo was mostly due to his seemingly complete lack of town agenda. But with Skynx... At this point I can see a full blown scum agenda here. All I see him do it throwing around shade at virtually everyone. He then pulls back, and goes at it again with someone else. Most of those shade throws are not tied to any consequence. (I'm aware that I'm very fond of doing that too, but I explained my reasoning and I believe that my play style is very different from Skynx) And this buildup for the Exolynch just triggers me hard. | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
I should stop rambling and condense more. | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
I see a very clear and continuous scum agenda in most of his posts: 1) casting doubt on everyone, never following up He went after myself, Foremen and Calix multiple times, pointing out our scummish behaviour, never ever with any followup. Rels gets doubted too at some point. Even in the middle of his "I stand with Exo" he had to post this as if he made sure that nobody takes his "defense of Exo" too serious His issues with NU and TT are another story. Looks like only DF got away without getting shaded. 2) his case on TT: his reasoning looked weaker than what he posted 2 minutes earlier against Calix and me, yet he chose to go after TT. He even announced "you have to do more to avoid a lynch" yet never tried to convince anyone of this lynch. 3) His entire alignment towards me is unfounded: he suspects me, accepts my response, suddenly im Toptown, because "he likes my lists". At this time my main contribution was my case on Exo_ Yet he also townreads Exo, says there are no compelling arguments against him. A few minute later he asks for evidence against Exo_, and points out that 3 players, including me, have no reason at all to vote Exo. He may have missed my case, but then what made him toptown me? How can I be toptown because of my good posts, when those posts are directly attacking his other toptown. How can I be toptown when he calls me out for voting without reason? As the EoD happened, he again called Exo for his opinion on Foreman and me. What am I? toptown? scum? This falls back to 1) 4) His stance in the Exo lynch. He was most concerned about pointing out that he was 100% sure that Exo was town. He stated multiple times that he believes that the mislynch of Exo will show us a lot. Yet I fail to see any serious attempt to convince people to jump off the train. He somehow shaped up NU as alternative, but promised "to make a case against him during the night phase". He never tried to really convince anyone to join the NU train. Or does this count as effort? This again looks like what I pointed out in 1) He weakly defended Exo_ on emotional reasons, yet was 100% he was town. He later admitted that there was some reason in the cases against Exo_, his defense consisted only out of this. No reaching out to change it He was more concerned about being right than about saving someone he believed 100% to flip green. | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
oups... Never thought about the liquiddota links... Afaik you can replace the liquiddota with teamliquid manually, but I promise to use tl links in future. Sorry --- And I wrote a tldr, I hope this is better. --- about calix post: I agree with her on FM. I still lack any attempt from him to bring the game forward. All I see are snarky comments excused by him having a shit character. If I'm out of scumleans, this would be my policy lynch by now. | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
On November 05 2016 23:32 Calix wrote: By the way mahrgell, what did you think of my Rels case? I'm only really asking because I'm going to die in like, three hours so I'd like an answer before then and you haven't talked about him much as of late. Rels wasn't on top of my todo pile as im still trying to work through that, but I can look into him first. Gimme some minutes. | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
On November 05 2016 07:12 Calix wrote: + Show Spoiler + Okay so here's what I think. I don't see anything that really gives me town vibes from Rels, he's in my POE reads and I don't really like him. Kind of want to sleep soon so have some bulletpoints: 1. He feels like he has an agenda with his posts. I get this impression from how strongly he emphasises certain points compared to others. It's like he's trying to achieve X but is also trying to hide that he's trying to achieve X. Examples that pinged me include the following A) his town-read on me. He really wanted me to know about that. Nobody really needed like, four reasons for why I am town when nobody scum-read me at all at that point and it's not like I need to be defended. Terrible priorities at best, scum pocketing me at worst. B) his town-read on Foreman. He defends Foreman because of his tone which I'm noting because I don't think he's ever used tone to read anyone else and he seems really invested in that read. This is a very weak point by itself but I'm wondering if it's an example of Rels showing inherent bias when reading players. c) his discredits of Skynx. I'm referring to EOD where he was saying "well Skynx defending ExO isn't a town tell because Skynx would be aware of how that would look to everyone so it's null" which pinged me because he scum-read ExO so why the fuck would he care about how ExO read Skynx if he thinks ExO is mafia? And who thinks that saying "well this thing that you think is townie is actually null" is a good idea BEFORE someone has flipped anyway? I think Rels knew that ExO would flip town and didn't want Skynx getting town cred for defending the ML. 2. His progression with ExO/ darthfoley. While Rels is attacking darthfoley consistently, he didn't have a problem with switching to ExO by making a case. What's the problem there? ExO was already the leading train. Rels was one of the last voters. All that vote did was secure ExO's lynch and was completely pointless. His vote switch is even weirder because Rels said that ExO was 'very likely town' because of his VT claim earlier and spent a fair bit of time explaining that. And he kept that reasoning in mind but I don't get why he felt the need to switch to ExO when he had that VT claim town-read and felt that DF was scummier. Looked at this. 1) This is something I also noticed. Actually with him defending me against DF. At this time, I think I had established that I'm willing to stand up myself. Throw shade at me, and I will try to bring light into it. DF was the only one going for me, everyone was at Exo already. Why even defend me with a huge post? I won't get lynched by DF alone. I can defend myself. This alone would probably not be weird, but it follows your argument. I just had this feeling, but your examples were not as clear to me before you brought them up giving my intuition more concrete food. In general, rereading his filter he had his case on DF... Except for that, all he did was expanding on other peoples stuff. He defended me, after I needed defense. Same with you or Foreman. He suddenly created large Exo accusations after Exo was already voted by 6 people. Etc. Basically all he ever did was to fight on battle fields where the battle was already over. "Look here, I'm fighting" 1c) I can't make sense of this now. I made clear that Skynx is my scumread right now. If we follow the idea of accusing Rels too... They could make up all kind of shit. If Skynx flips town (or I 180 on my read on him), I would probably come back to this. 2) I can follow your thought process here. I'm seeing how this makes you scumread him. But when I'm doing that thought train myself, I end with a "meh, whatever". He later detailed in great detail why he was suddenly considering Exo to be scum. If we buy that, this swap is legitimate. If we don't buy it, it is imho a repeat of what I described under 1), so not a new point. I'm honestly not that experienced in the meta of "If your target of choice won't happen, what will you do? Confirm an acceptable lynch or stay strong with your target." Trying to read something from it is difficult for me. Conclusion: I see your points, I think you are onto something here. But for me right now Skynx is my priority. I can't exactly bend my head around how that Rels suspicion and my Skynx scumread fit together. Do they fit together? Must one be wrong? (Or both wrong and I just suck at this game...) | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
On November 06 2016 00:13 NeverUnlucky wrote: 1) is how I felt when I said that I felt manipulated by Rels. So mahr, I hinted at what I actually detailed in my latest posts regarding DF, Skynx and Rels. The post I had bookmarked from DF: I said I would go after him for that post alone if Exo flipped red. Skynx: His "Exo is 100% town" confused the heck out of me. If Exo would have flipped red, I would have thrown Skynx into a tank full of green paint for being so stubborn. Also his tangle with you had started, and I noticed that this seemingly guaranteed lynch, which rested for several hours as nobody bothered to care anymore was suddenly picking up some surprising movement. Rels I didn't have in minds specifically, but I had noticed before that the dynamics of the accusations against Exo had changed. What happened was that some people went after TTs case, who imho lacked detail. This was an easy target. Then my case was left completely unanswered. And suddenly people fought about it, bringing up more reasons and I wondered what had happened. At that time I was only skimming, trying to keep up but unable to dive deep. But this looked off. Like everyone was fighting for position in this lynch. Rereading that later led to what you find now in the Rels post. | ||
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