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On September 29 2016 07:01 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2016 07:00 Calix wrote:On September 29 2016 06:58 Xatalos wrote:On September 29 2016 06:56 DoYouHas wrote:On September 29 2016 06:50 Xatalos wrote:On September 29 2016 06:48 DoYouHas wrote:On September 29 2016 06:39 Calix wrote:
DYH, why try to start a new train when you could vote for Stutters?
I find that extremely weird when you said he was a possible scum tbh. Let's be honest here, I'm not turning this train on me around. There is too much information to be gained and too much has happened/not happened to and from me to not go through with the lynch. So I'm going to put my vote on the person I think is most likely to flip scum. Stutters is possible scum but I still trust my gut reads from early in the game. If I end up being wrong, so be it, but I think Scott is more likely. Is there something other on scott than NK analysis? Eh, nothing concrete or convincing. It is mostly PoE from my other reads. I nod along with most of Skynx's posts and can see them coming from town, Scott gets squinty eyes from me with how he is pushing people, being agreeable and generally not sticking his neck out. Hm ok.... Well, let's hope it was right.. What do you mean with this post exactly? That this lynch choice was right........ But doesn't seem like it was.......
You were talking to DYH and it sounded like you were hoping that Scott was scum though? So I'm confused there.
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I don't think DYH's reads are going to be accurate because of D1 and all but I'm going to reread them when I wake up because it's a good reminder of what people did on D1...even if most of them are saying how his town-reads are town.
I might do some now - I can't get a jot of sleep because some idiots are yodeling outside my bedroom door -.-
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Instead of waving around promises of reasoning, maybe just say it so that I don't have to ask you for it? lol
I read DYH's reasoning on Stutters and I'm not convinced since it's partly because of self-meta (NAI) and he changes his mind mid-way through the read.
And his minor point about Jealous' comment isn't bad. I still should get around to rereading him sometime, definitely not now though.
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On September 29 2016 21:08 Tictock wrote:Idk, it's probably best not to try to anticipate host action but given his last post was about 2 days ago... it's possible. It's probably noteworthy that Stutters didn't seem very interested in lynching DYH, seems he was scumreading Scott and Dane more.
What conclusions are you drawing from that exactly?
I'm not so sure on Stutters myself anymore.
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So I decided to look back through the posts leading up to the ML and I think Jealous has the most questionable sequence with regards to his DYH read.
Here's what tipped me off:
+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2016 08:31 Jealous wrote:
It seems like people have mostly vocally agreed on DYH with a few exceptions, but I don't see the votes on him. I'll construct my case on him then, just so that it's out there. I was going to revisit Stutters but I see DYH as priority right now. Working. On September 28 2016 09:09 Jealous wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 24 2016 11:26 DoYouHas wrote:
I think I like you as well Stutters. Good on ya.
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I'll try to get into something beyond these gut reads tomorrow, hopefully when a few more people have posted. As is I'm pretty happy with tonight. 3/5 for my town pile and 2 I need to think about and watch. Gnight. Promises more substance tomorrow, let's see if he delivers. + Show Spoiler +On September 25 2016 10:11 DoYouHas wrote:
I am around Stutters. What are your thoughts on ptmc? I'll trade you for some on SEQ. He's been gone for almost 24 hours and comes back with this. For reference, Stutters was making a case on SEQ and told people to go look at SEQ filter. DYH is basically saying "okay, I'll do what you suggest to check out your scumread and work with you, but only if you give me your thoughts on ptmc, about whom I haven't said a word yet." I don't know if this is very townie behavior. Why wouldn't he just give his thoughts on SEQ and then ask about ptmc? + Show Spoiler [Sidenote] +Interesting post from Xata on this, prior to DoYouHas' return: On September 25 2016 06:50 Xatalos wrote:
DoYouHas did make quite a bit of posts earlier btw. 6 posts, only 4 of which were during the game, and none of which had substance besides 3 gut reads. Is this really worth commenting on? Is this really "quite a bit?" Hmm. On September 25 2016 10:16 DoYouHas wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2016 10:15 Jealous wrote:On September 25 2016 00:23 Lunaticman wrote:
The game is 4 pages long day one, take a chill pill. I dare to say I have done more than half the players in the game and in my experience you never hit mafia day one. It is much better to build a town circle.
Also Stutters is in all likelyhood a blue role. And if he dies it is on you and Rels.
Am I crazy for thinking this is an anti town post? Making Stutters out to be blue role with no nuance is downright retarded. It is absolutely anti-town. Do you think it is bad play or scum? On September 25 2016 10:53 DoYouHas wrote:
So is it bad enough that you would want to lynch him or do you currently have a stronger scum read on someone else currently? On September 25 2016 11:09 DoYouHas wrote:
@Jealous, are you in and out? Why is it taking you this long to respond to me? As Tictock pointed out, DYH seems to be pressuring me more than Lunatic despite (at least superficially) agreeing with me that Lunatic is playing anti-town. In fact, DYH hadn't said a word about Lunatic at all up until this point. Surely he saw the post? Why ignore Lunatic? Why jump on me? + Show Spoiler +On September 26 2016 03:45 DoYouHas wrote:You have Giacomo! (so long as you are leading against DH, Luna, or Jealous) So he throws Luna into the mix now that Luna has drawn attention but dilutes it by throwing two other names in there, neither of which he had mentioned until now. The only person he had really said anything of substance about until here is SEQ, besides his gutreads at the start of the game. (Also, he didn't really contribute anything in over 27 hours, despite promising to do so). This is his first time calling any of the three scum, and does it in a way that provides no substance whatsoever. + Show Spoiler +On September 26 2016 03:58 DoYouHas wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2016 03:50 Superbia wrote:
I am so fucking confused as to why no one has called me mafia yet this game and now everyone is reacting like this.
???
Oh well. Activity levels are low and there are better lynch targets than you, especially if your going to ramp up. DH's tunnel onto Luna is very contrived with no follow through. Pair that with his questionable early posting and it feels like scum to me. Maybe he brings something to the table before deadline now, but it feels like he tunneled just long enough to get the spotlight on someone else then disappeared. Luna made an anti-town play and has essentially shut down since coming under the displeasure of the thread, making him a very reasonable lynch and possible scum. I don't think making a meta read is in any way alignment indicative but I appear to be in the minority on that. Jealous started with fluff, then stirred the pot, and finished by being super non-commital. Townies should be trusting there own judgement over that of people's whose alignments are uncertain. Also potentially scum. Here he elaborates, imaginably because he is trying to get Superbia to sheep him. Doesn't like DH for scumreading Luna, despite also saying Luna is "possible scum," and then puts me in the same group again. Note, I was against Luna at the time as well. How would that team of 3 ever make sense? Both I and DH go for a bus halfway through D1 when there were only a handful of pages and posts, after telling Lunatic to post like an idiot? That's a stretch, and DYH makes no sense here otherwise. + Show Spoiler +On September 26 2016 04:04 DoYouHas wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2016 03:59 Superbia wrote:On September 26 2016 03:58 DoYouHas wrote:On September 26 2016 03:50 Superbia wrote:
I am so fucking confused as to why no one has called me mafia yet this game and now everyone is reacting like this.
???
Oh well. Activity levels are low and there are better lynch targets than you, especially if your going to ramp up. DH's tunnel onto Luna is very contrived with no follow through. Pair that with his questionable early posting and it feels like scum to me. Maybe he brings something to the table before deadline now, but it feels like he tunneled just long enough to get the spotlight on someone else then disappeared. Luna made an anti-town play and has essentially shut down since coming under the displeasure of the thread, making him a very reasonable lynch and possible scum. I don't think making a meta read is in any way alignment indicative but I appear to be in the minority on that. Jealous started with fluff, then stirred the pot, and finished by being super non-commital. Townies should be trusting there own judgement over that of people's whose alignments are uncertain. Also potentially scum. So uh. Read on DH is pre-flip association or what? I don't think Luna and Dane are likely to be scum together, but taking there play individually I think either of them could be scum here. Is that what you meant? I guess this explains the previous post somewhat, but he only makes the distinction when asked by Superbia? You would think that would be something you'd want to put in your post that is supposed to be informative to Superbia, and not only when probed further. In short, he threw out three scum reads he had never mentioned until then, then elaborated on it, but didn't mention he didn't think they were on a team together. That's careless at best; misleading seems more likely. Show nested quote +On September 26 2016 04:18 DoYouHas wrote:
##Vote: Luna
Kind of a shame, in my head he was going to come back strong today and I was going to be able to make a case for Dane over him. But every hour that goes by without him contributing makes it more and more likely he flips scum. This post still sucks. + Show Spoiler +On September 26 2016 04:27 DoYouHas wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2016 04:20 Rels wrote:On September 25 2016 10:11 DoYouHas wrote:
I am around Stutters. What are your thoughts on ptmc? I'll trade you for some on SEQ. On September 25 2016 11:02 DoYouHas wrote:On September 25 2016 10:56 Stutters695 wrote:On September 25 2016 10:11 DoYouHas wrote:
I am around Stutters. What are your thoughts on ptmc? I'll trade you for some on SEQ. I don't think ptmc is a better lynch before SEQ gets to respond. Voting me with his focus on Luna is super weird also. SEQ does not bother me much at all. He reads like he jumped in with both feet and started rooting around. The line you bolded would be weak reasoning if he had actually gone after Xata or spread suspicion on him, but I don't think he did. He moves on pretty quickly and after talking about mafia in a pretty general sense (not unusual for someone new to forum mafia, especially with Jealous getting into it too) he seems to be scumhunting. You have picked a pretty early statement from him that does not, to me, hold the significance you are assigning it. Calix is right. The sequence seems pretty forced. DYH said "I'll exchange your read on ptmc for my read on SEQ" when his read on SEQ is null. And it also looks like he was waiting of Stutters to go "OK what's your read on SEQ now ?"; but Stutters didn't, and DYH said it anyway. It looks like it was planned to appear to have a conversation. Or maybe, just maybe, both of your assumptions are wrong here. 1. I wasn't providing a null read on SEQ 2. I was actually trying to have a conversation with someone I townread. Stutters being the "someone I townread," which he did with "gut" in the first few hours of the game, which he never mentioned again. Also note that he still hasn't provided anything as he had promised at the start. + Show Spoiler +On September 26 2016 10:32 DoYouHas wrote:
Ok, here is where I'm at for the night
Mafia
Jealous
Town
Rels
SEQ
Calix
Stutters
Skynx
Probably Town
Xata
Looking better post-flip
Dane
Unsure
Scott
Superbia
ptmc
Dane(again)
I ask why I am his scumread, only scumread. + Show Spoiler +On September 26 2016 11:56 DoYouHas wrote:GRAH, I CAN'T MAKE IT STICK For everything I don't like about you and think makes you scum: Your early fluff, non-committal, over-defensiveness, appeals to your noobieness, misrepresenting me, buddying Calix, looking at the proposal of multiple wagons from a mafia perspective instead of a town one (looking at it as a trap to be avoided instead of as an opportunity for better VCA) I can't seem to find the mafia actions in your play around the lynch. If I'm having trouble convincing myself of probably the most important part when I undoubtedly have my confirmation bias glasses on it probably isn't there. I was seeing your tonal shifts from casually attacking Luna to guarded consideration then back to casual attacking as very odd. But the thing I can't figure out if you are scum is why you would leave your vote on Luna and not Stutters before the wagon on Luna got rolling. This post: Show nested quote +On September 25 2016 17:17 Jealous wrote:
I have to agree with Calix on the more anti-town part. [B]## Lunaticman just in case I don't make it back. It doesn't fit or is significantly more clever than I am. Damn, damn, damn. I hate having no scum reads. I really do need to get to bed though. See you all with the daypost. This takes him a whole hour and he calls me all sorts of terrible but still can't make a case. This means he is town/null-reading everyone in the game, was pushing a lynch/scumread since his first few posts D1 that he himself can't support and had given no concrete evidence on at all until he was forced to draw some out. That is simply foolish, and scummy in my book. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/513316-newbie-student-mafia-xxiii?page=40#791http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/513316-newbie-student-mafia-xxiii?page=40#792These are his last two posts, nearly a day ago. And frankly, I don't think they are very good. Although I think Rels post did have some stuff I didn't agree with, and DYH pointed them out, the rest of it was pretty weak. He doesn't make much sense in some parts nor does he substantiate much of his argument about why DH or I were scummy, which he references a few times. His earlier posts on the subject were, as you can see above, were weak as well, so it's not like he could reference some strong analysis from before. Overall, I think DYH is scum. I don't think neither Xata nor skynx are worth a vote right now, but I will definitely look into them more in detail. There are still some fishy things I don't like about Xata and Skynx doesn't seem to be paying much attention to the game in certain posts of his, which I don't like but can't necessarily say is scummy until I see them side-by-side in analysis. So yea, I voted DYH.
He acknowledges that DYH is someone that pretty much everyone agrees is scummy, yet he thinks that it's a good use of his time to make a massive case against him and hop on the train because 'he doesn't have that many votes on him'. Keep in mind that DYH is the leading train at this point with the Xatalos/ Skynx thing being supported by almost nobody save for each other and Stutters having a few supporters. That is it. The Stutters train was not even a thing for most of the day.
He references a fair number of arguments used by other players (TT, myself, etc) and the points he added aren't anything massively incriminating in retrospect. My point? It makes me wonder why Jealous felt the need to devote a large amount of his time to a case on someone that he was already scum-reading given that he largely rehashes the arguments of other players and this is all on a player that he's already given opinions on. That's not a case of bad priorities, that's posting for the hell of it.
If you want an example of not-scummy points he raised, look no further than him criticising DYH for going "Lunatic, Jealous, DanelerH are my scum-reads" because "that team makes no sense". This is all fine and dandy...if we were talking about a post made on Day 4. That's not the case though; he's talking about reads made early on Day 1. Most players do not consider associative tells that early on in the game because the goal is to lynch a scum. Until then, you have no concrete information to base associative reads from so criticising DYH for that is nit-picky and doesn't add anything to the argument.
This is also one of the worst EOD posts:
[B]On September 29 2016 06:40 Jealous wrote:
I'm starting to WIFOM over the fact that DYH showed up just before EoD when the train is on him. Like, would a scum normally do this? I don't think I would lol. The reason it's WIFOM is because maybe he is trying to make people doubt his scumminess last second and shenanie? I'm locked in but I'll feel a little bad about it if he flips town ):
As you can see, he is showing some doubt over DYH flipping scum. That's all fine, nothing to see there, but his reasoning is absolutely insane.
tl;dr:
- DYH showed up when he got voted
- Scum wouldn't bother to turn up because scum!Jealous would not bother
As Rels said earlier, this is a piss-poor reason to start doubting a scum-read when a) scum 100% would want to defend themselves so that they...don't get lynched and b) time-zones/ RL commitments can also influence if someone arrives at EOD.
That's not a strong enough explanation to make anyone doubt themselves about a read, especially after the case that Jealous made where he concluded 'scum'. The mere act of posting at EOD when you are being voted has jack shit to do with your alignment.
Furthermore, he wasn't interested in switching wagons from DYH so I see no logical or emotional motivation for this sudden doubt. Thus I'm concluding that he's full of shit. That post had him stretching so hard for an excuse to distance from the ML that he sprained a muscle.
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Oh yeah, with regards to my last point, I think Jealous is having a case of scum-guilt. (largely tone and some of his comments about his reads/ guilt that give me this vibe)
He's been bugging me for a while and I think I've finally figured out why 
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Also I don't think Stutters/ Jealous are on a team together unless they took their early-distancing way too far. Jealous was pushing Stutters too much for that to be the case.
Thinking TvS atm. Too bad Stutters is AWOL, it's going to be a pain in the arse to suss that one out.
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Xatalos/ Skynx were sitting on their hands, making fluff comments, dicking around at EOD and generally being stupid. Possible that both of them were too caught-up in their bitch-fight to give a fuck, but neither of them had good votes on DYH. I dislike Xatalos more because he was hedging around DYH for no reason.
TT was making some odd comments. I still don't relate to asking about how DYH was posting his reads - it's not something I would consider when seeing some reads. I can't see scum motivation for them though so going to keep a mental note of them for now. And I did like his initial response to DYH's post on 867, meta reference aside.
Didn't even notice that Daneler was online at EOD, all he did was pop in to vote. I don't think he's done much recently and he's becoming hazy in my mind so I'd like to hear more from him.
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Oh yeah, he's the dude that made that floppy case on Lunatic and the SEQ/ Stutters case. I wouldn't have figured that he only has a 1-page filter, rofl.
Pity that he's dropped off after such a good start but he still looks clear to me.
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On September 29 2016 23:41 Jealous wrote:
I felt guilty because DYH was coming off as town in those last posts, truly trying to help town and all that... it was at the point when it was obvious no one would take their votes off him and everything he had to say was futile, he kept posting for town... hence the guilt ;-;
It's not futile if people read his thoughts after he dies.
I recall you made that teasing comment about his uninformed posting (as in, hadn't read the thread properly) so I don't see what changed for you in his last few posts.
You are still acting like posting is a town tell. It isn't. Have you ever played with HolyFlare? lol
I was skeptical about him not trying to vote for Stutters but in retrospect, that was a pretty stupid thing for me to worry about given the site so.
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On September 30 2016 02:27 Stutters695 wrote:Sorry guys. I got really busy. Just a warning this time. Won't be modkilled.
Jesus tit-sucking Christ, that's a shameless mod-dodge if I ever saw one. Doesn't even comment on the fucking game.
At this point, he needs to be policy-lynched now rather than later to clear shit up. He's a black hole that makes it difficult to judge other players and the discussion around him is getting stale because he does nothing.
He's already survived two days longer than he should have done and that was back when he was actually posting.
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On September 30 2016 03:02 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2016 01:24 Tictock wrote:On September 29 2016 23:41 Jealous wrote:
I felt guilty because DYH was coming off as town in those last posts, truly trying to help town and all that... it was at the point when it was obvious no one would take their votes off him and everything he had to say was futile, he kept posting for town... hence the guilt ;-; You know it does seem a bit odd that if your starting to think someone might be town enough to feel guilty about their flip that you'd post that you are "locked in" rather than suggest a vote switch. I'm locked in because of evidence, guilty because feels. Evidence > feels. Also, @Calix, the only reason I made the long post on DYH is because even though he was being discussed, he only had 2 or 3 votes including myself, 1 on Xata/skynx, and like 6 people yet to vote. I figured people needed more convincing so I did an analysis post by post. Naturally, I came up with some of the same things others had up until that point and reiterated some of my own previous analysis. Don't really see how you're trying to fault me on this one, feels like you're trying to make something out of nothing for the sake of never being without a scumlean.
I'd find your argument more convincing if I ignored the multitude of posts that I've made against Stutters.
I'm not faulting you for the act of making a case against your scum-read. I'm faulting you because of the context of making that scum-read and how you did it.
Right now, my scum-reads are one of you/ Stutters, Xatalos and maybe Scott if I'm wrong on those three.
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On September 30 2016 14:27 scott31337 wrote:So reading your filter over Stutters, and I saw - Show nested quote +On September 24 2016 07:46 Stutters695 wrote:
I'm here and not scum. How disappointing.
Anyway, as it stands I'd be all for a d1 Xata lynch. Pretty sure he's fooled me like the last 3 times he's been mafia and that's no good.
So, I did some research - Unless there's some newer games this does not have, I only see one game (and Assassination?) where you were town and Xatalos is mafia. [W] Newbie Mini Mafia XXVI http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=363923&user=Stutters695&view=all ![[image loading]](https://i.sli.mg/KdqyBS.jpg)
lol Scott, this is pitiful. You went through the database based on this one comment which looks like a throwaway remark on a player's scum game if anything.
What I don't get is why you think ANYONE would lie about their history with XYZ when they can be easily caught out over something so simple. I don't see scum motivation for Stutters to lie about the number of games he's seen scum!Xatalos in.
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On October 01 2016 03:03 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2016 03:00 Calix wrote:On September 30 2016 02:27 Stutters695 wrote:On September 29 2016 15:05 ptmc wrote:
So stutters is modkilled at EON? Sorry guys. I got really busy. Just a warning this time. Won't be modkilled. Jesus tit-sucking Christ, that's a shameless mod-dodge if I ever saw one. Doesn't even comment on the fucking game. At this point, he needs to be policy-lynched now rather than later to clear shit up. He's a black hole that makes it difficult to judge other players and the discussion around him is getting stale because he does nothing. He's already survived two days longer than he should have done and that was back when he was actually posting. Gotta admit that his play has been subpar at best... It's subpar as either alignment though, not merely subpar as town.
It's a bloody good thing I went out for a walk in a park today. I have some lovely pictures of hedges which remind me of your posts.
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On October 01 2016 02:29 Skynx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2016 22:17 Calix wrote:So I decided to look back through the posts leading up to the ML and I think Jealous has the most questionable sequence with regards to his DYH read. Here's what tipped me off: + Show Spoiler +On September 28 2016 08:31 Jealous wrote:
It seems like people have mostly vocally agreed on DYH with a few exceptions, but I don't see the votes on him. I'll construct my case on him then, just so that it's out there. I was going to revisit Stutters but I see DYH as priority right now. Working. On September 28 2016 09:09 Jealous wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 24 2016 11:26 DoYouHas wrote:
I think I like you as well Stutters. Good on ya.
-
I'll try to get into something beyond these gut reads tomorrow, hopefully when a few more people have posted. As is I'm pretty happy with tonight. 3/5 for my town pile and 2 I need to think about and watch. Gnight. Promises more substance tomorrow, let's see if he delivers. + Show Spoiler +On September 25 2016 10:11 DoYouHas wrote:
I am around Stutters. What are your thoughts on ptmc? I'll trade you for some on SEQ. He's been gone for almost 24 hours and comes back with this. For reference, Stutters was making a case on SEQ and told people to go look at SEQ filter. DYH is basically saying "okay, I'll do what you suggest to check out your scumread and work with you, but only if you give me your thoughts on ptmc, about whom I haven't said a word yet." I don't know if this is very townie behavior. Why wouldn't he just give his thoughts on SEQ and then ask about ptmc? + Show Spoiler [Sidenote] +Interesting post from Xata on this, prior to DoYouHas' return: On September 25 2016 06:50 Xatalos wrote:
DoYouHas did make quite a bit of posts earlier btw. 6 posts, only 4 of which were during the game, and none of which had substance besides 3 gut reads. Is this really worth commenting on? Is this really "quite a bit?" Hmm. On September 25 2016 10:16 DoYouHas wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2016 10:15 Jealous wrote:On September 25 2016 00:23 Lunaticman wrote:
The game is 4 pages long day one, take a chill pill. I dare to say I have done more than half the players in the game and in my experience you never hit mafia day one. It is much better to build a town circle.
Also Stutters is in all likelyhood a blue role. And if he dies it is on you and Rels.
Am I crazy for thinking this is an anti town post? Making Stutters out to be blue role with no nuance is downright retarded. It is absolutely anti-town. Do you think it is bad play or scum? On September 25 2016 10:53 DoYouHas wrote:
So is it bad enough that you would want to lynch him or do you currently have a stronger scum read on someone else currently? On September 25 2016 11:09 DoYouHas wrote:
@Jealous, are you in and out? Why is it taking you this long to respond to me? As Tictock pointed out, DYH seems to be pressuring me more than Lunatic despite (at least superficially) agreeing with me that Lunatic is playing anti-town. In fact, DYH hadn't said a word about Lunatic at all up until this point. Surely he saw the post? Why ignore Lunatic? Why jump on me? + Show Spoiler +On September 26 2016 03:45 DoYouHas wrote:You have Giacomo! (so long as you are leading against DH, Luna, or Jealous) So he throws Luna into the mix now that Luna has drawn attention but dilutes it by throwing two other names in there, neither of which he had mentioned until now. The only person he had really said anything of substance about until here is SEQ, besides his gutreads at the start of the game. (Also, he didn't really contribute anything in over 27 hours, despite promising to do so). This is his first time calling any of the three scum, and does it in a way that provides no substance whatsoever. + Show Spoiler +On September 26 2016 03:58 DoYouHas wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2016 03:50 Superbia wrote:
I am so fucking confused as to why no one has called me mafia yet this game and now everyone is reacting like this.
???
Oh well. Activity levels are low and there are better lynch targets than you, especially if your going to ramp up. DH's tunnel onto Luna is very contrived with no follow through. Pair that with his questionable early posting and it feels like scum to me. Maybe he brings something to the table before deadline now, but it feels like he tunneled just long enough to get the spotlight on someone else then disappeared. Luna made an anti-town play and has essentially shut down since coming under the displeasure of the thread, making him a very reasonable lynch and possible scum. I don't think making a meta read is in any way alignment indicative but I appear to be in the minority on that. Jealous started with fluff, then stirred the pot, and finished by being super non-commital. Townies should be trusting there own judgement over that of people's whose alignments are uncertain. Also potentially scum. Here he elaborates, imaginably because he is trying to get Superbia to sheep him. Doesn't like DH for scumreading Luna, despite also saying Luna is "possible scum," and then puts me in the same group again. Note, I was against Luna at the time as well. How would that team of 3 ever make sense? Both I and DH go for a bus halfway through D1 when there were only a handful of pages and posts, after telling Lunatic to post like an idiot? That's a stretch, and DYH makes no sense here otherwise. + Show Spoiler +On September 26 2016 04:04 DoYouHas wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2016 03:59 Superbia wrote:On September 26 2016 03:58 DoYouHas wrote:On September 26 2016 03:50 Superbia wrote:
I am so fucking confused as to why no one has called me mafia yet this game and now everyone is reacting like this.
???
Oh well. Activity levels are low and there are better lynch targets than you, especially if your going to ramp up. DH's tunnel onto Luna is very contrived with no follow through. Pair that with his questionable early posting and it feels like scum to me. Maybe he brings something to the table before deadline now, but it feels like he tunneled just long enough to get the spotlight on someone else then disappeared. Luna made an anti-town play and has essentially shut down since coming under the displeasure of the thread, making him a very reasonable lynch and possible scum. I don't think making a meta read is in any way alignment indicative but I appear to be in the minority on that. Jealous started with fluff, then stirred the pot, and finished by being super non-commital. Townies should be trusting there own judgement over that of people's whose alignments are uncertain. Also potentially scum. So uh. Read on DH is pre-flip association or what? I don't think Luna and Dane are likely to be scum together, but taking there play individually I think either of them could be scum here. Is that what you meant? I guess this explains the previous post somewhat, but he only makes the distinction when asked by Superbia? You would think that would be something you'd want to put in your post that is supposed to be informative to Superbia, and not only when probed further. In short, he threw out three scum reads he had never mentioned until then, then elaborated on it, but didn't mention he didn't think they were on a team together. That's careless at best; misleading seems more likely. Show nested quote +On September 26 2016 04:18 DoYouHas wrote:
##Vote: Luna
Kind of a shame, in my head he was going to come back strong today and I was going to be able to make a case for Dane over him. But every hour that goes by without him contributing makes it more and more likely he flips scum. This post still sucks. + Show Spoiler +On September 26 2016 04:27 DoYouHas wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2016 04:20 Rels wrote:On September 25 2016 10:11 DoYouHas wrote:
I am around Stutters. What are your thoughts on ptmc? I'll trade you for some on SEQ. On September 25 2016 11:02 DoYouHas wrote:On September 25 2016 10:56 Stutters695 wrote:On September 25 2016 10:11 DoYouHas wrote:
I am around Stutters. What are your thoughts on ptmc? I'll trade you for some on SEQ. I don't think ptmc is a better lynch before SEQ gets to respond. Voting me with his focus on Luna is super weird also. SEQ does not bother me much at all. He reads like he jumped in with both feet and started rooting around. The line you bolded would be weak reasoning if he had actually gone after Xata or spread suspicion on him, but I don't think he did. He moves on pretty quickly and after talking about mafia in a pretty general sense (not unusual for someone new to forum mafia, especially with Jealous getting into it too) he seems to be scumhunting. You have picked a pretty early statement from him that does not, to me, hold the significance you are assigning it. Calix is right. The sequence seems pretty forced. DYH said "I'll exchange your read on ptmc for my read on SEQ" when his read on SEQ is null. And it also looks like he was waiting of Stutters to go "OK what's your read on SEQ now ?"; but Stutters didn't, and DYH said it anyway. It looks like it was planned to appear to have a conversation. Or maybe, just maybe, both of your assumptions are wrong here. 1. I wasn't providing a null read on SEQ 2. I was actually trying to have a conversation with someone I townread. Stutters being the "someone I townread," which he did with "gut" in the first few hours of the game, which he never mentioned again. Also note that he still hasn't provided anything as he had promised at the start. + Show Spoiler +On September 26 2016 10:32 DoYouHas wrote:
Ok, here is where I'm at for the night
Mafia
Jealous
Town
Rels
SEQ
Calix
Stutters
Skynx
Probably Town
Xata
Looking better post-flip
Dane
Unsure
Scott
Superbia
ptmc
Dane(again)
I ask why I am his scumread, only scumread. + Show Spoiler +On September 26 2016 11:56 DoYouHas wrote:GRAH, I CAN'T MAKE IT STICK For everything I don't like about you and think makes you scum: Your early fluff, non-committal, over-defensiveness, appeals to your noobieness, misrepresenting me, buddying Calix, looking at the proposal of multiple wagons from a mafia perspective instead of a town one (looking at it as a trap to be avoided instead of as an opportunity for better VCA) I can't seem to find the mafia actions in your play around the lynch. If I'm having trouble convincing myself of probably the most important part when I undoubtedly have my confirmation bias glasses on it probably isn't there. I was seeing your tonal shifts from casually attacking Luna to guarded consideration then back to casual attacking as very odd. But the thing I can't figure out if you are scum is why you would leave your vote on Luna and not Stutters before the wagon on Luna got rolling. This post: Show nested quote +On September 25 2016 17:17 Jealous wrote:
I have to agree with Calix on the more anti-town part. [B]## Lunaticman just in case I don't make it back. It doesn't fit or is significantly more clever than I am. Damn, damn, damn. I hate having no scum reads. I really do need to get to bed though. See you all with the daypost. This takes him a whole hour and he calls me all sorts of terrible but still can't make a case. This means he is town/null-reading everyone in the game, was pushing a lynch/scumread since his first few posts D1 that he himself can't support and had given no concrete evidence on at all until he was forced to draw some out. That is simply foolish, and scummy in my book. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/513316-newbie-student-mafia-xxiii?page=40#791http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/513316-newbie-student-mafia-xxiii?page=40#792These are his last two posts, nearly a day ago. And frankly, I don't think they are very good. Although I think Rels post did have some stuff I didn't agree with, and DYH pointed them out, the rest of it was pretty weak. He doesn't make much sense in some parts nor does he substantiate much of his argument about why DH or I were scummy, which he references a few times. His earlier posts on the subject were, as you can see above, were weak as well, so it's not like he could reference some strong analysis from before. Overall, I think DYH is scum. I don't think neither Xata nor skynx are worth a vote right now, but I will definitely look into them more in detail. There are still some fishy things I don't like about Xata and Skynx doesn't seem to be paying much attention to the game in certain posts of his, which I don't like but can't necessarily say is scummy until I see them side-by-side in analysis. So yea, I voted DYH. He acknowledges that DYH is someone that pretty much everyone agrees is scummy, yet he thinks that it's a good use of his time to make a massive case against him and hop on the train because 'he doesn't have that many votes on him'. Keep in mind that DYH is the leading train at this point with the Xatalos/ Skynx thing being supported by almost nobody save for each other and Stutters having a few supporters. That is it. The Stutters train was not even a thing for most of the day. He references a fair number of arguments used by other players (TT, myself, etc) and the points he added aren't anything massively incriminating in retrospect. My point? It makes me wonder why Jealous felt the need to devote a large amount of his time to a case on someone that he was already scum-reading given that he largely rehashes the arguments of other players and this is all on a player that he's already given opinions on. That's not a case of bad priorities, that's posting for the hell of it. If you want an example of not-scummy points he raised, look no further than him criticising DYH for going "Lunatic, Jealous, DanelerH are my scum-reads" because "that team makes no sense". This is all fine and dandy...if we were talking about a post made on Day 4. That's not the case though; he's talking about reads made early on Day 1. Most players do not consider associative tells that early on in the game because the goal is to lynch a scum. Until then, you have no concrete information to base associative reads from so criticising DYH for that is nit-picky and doesn't add anything to the argument. This is also one of the worst EOD posts: [B]On September 29 2016 06:40 Jealous wrote:
I'm starting to WIFOM over the fact that DYH showed up just before EoD when the train is on him. Like, would a scum normally do this? I don't think I would lol. The reason it's WIFOM is because maybe he is trying to make people doubt his scumminess last second and shenanie? I'm locked in but I'll feel a little bad about it if he flips town ): As you can see, he is showing some doubt over DYH flipping scum. That's all fine, nothing to see there, but his reasoning is absolutely insane. tl;dr: - DYH showed up when he got voted - Scum wouldn't bother to turn up because scum!Jealous would not bother As Rels said earlier, this is a piss-poor reason to start doubting a scum-read when a) scum 100% would want to defend themselves so that they...don't get lynched and b) time-zones/ RL commitments can also influence if someone arrives at EOD. That's not a strong enough explanation to make anyone doubt themselves about a read, especially after the case that Jealous made where he concluded 'scum'. The mere act of posting at EOD when you are being voted has jack shit to do with your alignment. Furthermore, he wasn't interested in switching wagons from DYH so I see no logical or emotional motivation for this sudden doubt. Thus I'm concluding that he's full of shit. That post had him stretching so hard for an excuse to distance from the ML that he sprained a muscle. I don't think this makes Jealous scum. If you're scum why just not vote DYH without giving any reason and live happily ever after
To make himself look more productive, duh.
My last point is really being overlooked here so I'll repeat myself here. His reasoning for doubting DYH's wagon is contrived no matter how you look at it. How would someone posting at EOD be town-indicative and overwhelm the other reasoning that he laid out just a few hours' earlier? How does anyone scum-read DYH with a multitude of reasons and then doubt that based on him turning up? Try and think through that one and tell me how that makes sense, I'd like to see that work of fiction.
It makes no sense from a town mindset but by all means counter me with some valid explanations or whatever. I'd prefer Jealous but he ignored this point so I'll take spokespeople if it means people actually acknowledge me here.
I should have split up my post or something so people would notice this.
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On October 01 2016 02:55 Xatalos wrote:
In any case, they should be both lynched over stutters every time.
If stutters keeps getting votes, I'll probably need to share my other reason. But the first reason (Lunatic's scum->town-like reaction to stutters) is already pretty clear.
What the fuck is the point of hiding your reasoning? It's a town-read, not nuclear codes.
Your evasiveness is similar to Lunatic's evasion of his Stutters town-read and it's been noted.
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On October 01 2016 03:17 DanelerH wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2016 03:08 Tictock wrote:On October 01 2016 02:31 DanelerH wrote:On October 01 2016 01:08 Xatalos wrote:Finally back. Expected Calix over Rels, but maybe dodged or something. On September 30 2016 09:59 DanelerH wrote:Thank you for the answers, Scott. Now I have a question for Xatalos: On September 29 2016 02:38 Xatalos wrote:
Stutters
A more controversial pick for green color, perhaps, but I agree with whoever said that it would be extremely rare for scum to immediately throw a strong townread on their teammate like Lunatic did. It would only link them together in everyone's minds (something scum would definitely not want) and make the other look bad/scum if the other flips. In addition, it wouldn't come naturally as a careless throwaway comment like how Lunatic said it. It just fits so much better as a casual, too strong townread on someone he would know to be town in advance. Also, I have an interesting theory related to Stutters, but that's best left for later. I'm interested in this theory you have that's related to Stutters. Mind sharing it? I'm assuming it relates to the second good reason you have to Town-read Stutters. + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2016 07:08 Xatalos wrote:
Hm. stutters didn't vote?
There are still two good reasons to townread him, but his play is really... Sorry, it's confidential for now... And not entirely certain. I'll say my thought there when the time is right. However, I'll counter by asking... Where are you going with these questions to different players? Sorry, it's confidential for now... In all serious, though, I noticed a correlation between Superbia and Rels. They were both suspicious of Scott, which is why I started by questioning xem. Judging by Scott's answers, I feel like xe might be leaning Town. They were also both suspicious of you, so I questioned you next. Based on your answer, you're sounding less Town. Can you expand on what you thought was towny about Scott's response and what was scummy about Xata's? I don't like how Xatalos is unwilling to share the theory about Stutters. For Scott, the answers were straightforward and sounded like they came from Town.
Is this a tone read or is it something specific that he said?
From what I've seen of Scott, he is a concise person in general.
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"I'll keep waving around a promise of a super-special contribution on the leading train in lieu of actual contribution."
- You
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Stutters, why don't you try giving your OWN thoughts on Scott?
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