EPT[M][N] Unoriginal Name Mini Mafia
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
On January 09 2016 12:44 slOosh wrote: I can see where you are coming from - I was merely giving my whole thinking process. The fact is I play (or at least I think I play) a more logical fashion, sometimes roundabout style. I was noting that some other playstyles hate this (and the player mentioned was just one that came to mind). The tone of this post is scummy. Cooler shit later. | ||
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
I'm starting off with some setup analysis because the only thing I cared about on page 5 was Artanis posting the possible setups. I'm sure at least some of you already figured this out, mafia geniuses you are, but as I'm still working through it, I figure that possibly some of you are too. The first thing worth noting about this setup is that the mafia know for sure whether or not there is a doctor in the game. If, down the line, it's apparent that the mafia is playing around a doctor, we can say with a greater degree of certainty that we are in Setup B or C, and that should inform our vetting of role claims accordingly. The second thing is that the Named VT, the Doctor, or the Veteran (and there is certainly one of these roles) knows the setup fully (or in the Doctor's case, almost fully -- is missing the other town role). If you are one of these roles, you should of course keep that under wraps for now, but know that you have unique information that may help us unravel complicated role claims down the line, and don't forget that you have that information, because the rest of us have to wait for you to flip to get it. Actually, I lied earlier. There was one post that caught my attention, I've touched a bit on my opinion on it already. On January 09 2016 08:50 GiygaS wrote: Before I leave if there's a vanilla townie, should they claim? It would give us useful setup info and maybe confirm someone right? I like that this player, right from the start, was thinking about how to gain additional info about the setup. I think the answer to this question is "no" -- we don't need the information this early, and saving it until later may allow for a much bigger blowout if the hypothetical Named VT ends up under fire or the mafia get involved in some claims fiasco -- but I think looking toward this immediately at the game start is correct, as we were given additional relevant information to start the game (the four possible setups), and GiygaS immediately began thinking about how to maximize the use of this information. I looked at the rest of the filter for this player, and GiygaS is talking to what seems like half of the thread (and almost all of the active players), throwing early reads out and being willing to defend them on concrete (at least for 8 hours into day 1) grounds. I'm sure this read is pretty easy, but I think GiygaS is town. I also like this question from rayn during page 6: On January 09 2016 09:56 raynpelikoneet wrote: Actually Koshi why did you pick medic dodge as an example to the named VT question? It has nothing to do with it. Koshi does come to the incorrect conclusion about why the Named VT shouldn't out. The mafia already know whether or not a Doctor is in the game, so the Named VT potentially outing doesn't change this aspect of the equation. I bring this up not to talk about Koshi (I find the "I misread the OP" back-and-forth that ensued to be not particularly indicative of anything for him) but instead to highlight rayn, who I think was pretty on-point about everything early. His reaction to Tubesock's comment about dumb tells and his questioning of slOosh (both on page 8) were both correct. I think raynpelikoneet is also town. | ||
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
(Not really, but since you asked so nicely, I guess I can try...) On January 09 2016 12:25 slOosh wrote: Hmm big things are you as strong town for picking up on similar things to me + more. GGTeMpLaR I also noticed his first post was kinda awkward, but I felt like he could very well be those townies that if you pressure they just ... react poorly? I'm not sure how to phrase it, but I don't think a direct pressure approach would work out. So I wanted him to post on something else to figure out if he is nervous b/c scum or nervous b/c newer player. Vayne ... I feel like he is reading me slightly more scum than someone reasonably could? Either that or his style of playing is very different to mine, almost like Oatsmaster or something if he is still around. No one else has too much for me. What is this post actually trying to say, slOosh? In the first place, I don't follow what you mean when you say: "I wanted him to post on something else to figure out if he is nervous b/c scum or nervous b/c new player." What "something else" did you want him to post about? GGTemplar opened his post by saying that he intended to "tone down" relative to his previous games. You then asked him about his reads in his previous games. A few questions about this: (1) How is this "on something else"? (1.5) What even is this "something else"? (3) What is the difference between being nervous due to newness or scumminess, and (3b) How can you tell that difference from the question you asked? I don't understand the direction of your question to him. Second, you say this: "Vayne ... I feel like he is reading me slightly more scum than someone reasonably could? Either that or his style of playing is very different to mine, almost like Oatsmaster or something if he is still around." What is your actual conclusion about Vayne? What's unreasonable about his scumread on you? Your post purports to give reads about two different people (as it's in response to rayn asking you for reads), but you come to no conclusion regarding either that I can see. Do you have actual conclusions about them? On January 09 2016 12:40 slOosh wrote: I asked specifically about GiygaS because I took his initial wording as more scum vibe. It's really awkward that a VT would say "vanilla town" and not differentiate that he is talking about the Named VT, and I think blue roles are somewhat unlikely to want to talk about role claiming and whatnot, which leaves perhaps a careless scum post. I don't agree with the conclusion of your townread but I understand it and find it logical. What wording did you take as "more scum vibe"? Specifically what is awkward about a VT asking the question GiygaS asked earlier in the thread about the Named VT revealing? (If you assume that this VT isn't dumb enough to think he's the only VT in the game, then you can infer that he's not asking for a mass VT role reveal, at which point it's pretty easy to discern that he's referring to the named VT.) And if you disagree with rayn townreading GiygaS then why did you leave rayn's townread conclusion with a "makes sense"? If you think GiygaS is scum then it shouldn't "make sense" that someone can read the exact same thing you do and come to the opposite conclusion. You can't both be right, so how can you both be making sense of the same information? ((Also: boo rayn for giving a lazy "Okay that makes sense" response instead of making this observation. I can't do all the heavy lifting here...)) On January 09 2016 12:44 slOosh wrote: I can see where you are coming from - I was merely giving my whole thinking process. The fact is I play (or at least I think I play) a more logical fashion, sometimes roundabout style. I was noting that some other playstyles hate this (and the player mentioned was just one that came to mind). Are you saying Vayne's read on you is illogical or comes from an illogical playstyle? Why is this? This is similar to my previous question on the matter, but it irks me that you are a self-described logical player but don't explain why you think someone scumreading you this early is illogical. Also wtf does "a sometimes roundabout [logical] style" mean lol | ||
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
On January 09 2016 16:34 darthfoley wrote: I'm also voting Koshi as it stands. The more I look at his posts, the less helpful they seem to the Town. ##Vote: Koshi What is unhelpful about Koshi's posts in your own words? As they seem less helpful the more you look at them, I expect that you will be able to explain this pretty easily for this potato townie questioning you. | ||
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
On January 09 2016 12:57 Koshi wrote: ##vote: Nooniansoong I got reasons. But they are "terrible". I am also extremely tired so I can't promise I will remember them. But I think he might be biggest shot on mafia. This is really out of the blue to me. noonian has posted literal nothing. Pretty sure you won't answer this until you wake up, and I hope you remember them, because I want to know them, so you're gonna need to tell me to the best of your recollection. | ||
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
Needless to say I'm not feeling very good about slOosh. The early posting was rather directionless in my opinion (or at least, the direction was difficult to discern, where I think normally it shouldn't be) -- I for sure don't get the attempt to discern whether or not GGTemplar (I'm not capitalizing all that shit and I'm not sorry for it) is scum or nervous town, since I don't really see any clear criterion that would help distinguish the two, and certainly nothing that would arise from the softball slOosh lobbed at GG early. Just felt like there was a lot of air masquerading as ink in the first two-thirds of the filter. slOosh picks it up a bit and gets somewhat more concrete in the accusation of Koshi, but I don't like how uninteractive the accusation is. When I saw Koshi had scumread noonian, I was perplexed as well, but my instinct wasn't "kill this man," it was "ask him wtf he's talking about." slOosh's reaction seemed more like "I can make this guy look really bad with this." In fact while I'm at it: Koshi spends half his posts talking about some setup fluff. What's scummy about "setup fluff"? It gets the right juices flowing in my brain when I start a new game, and discussion tends to out easy townreads like GiygaS that wouldn't otherwise arise. Koshi spends the other half of his posts repeating the same post, telling me (his scum read), why I am scum, instead of telling others. What does this mean? Don't get what's suspicious about him talking to you about his suspicions of you, so please quote something more specific to illustrate where this is more malevolent than you make it sound here. Koshi leaves the thread by placing a vote on someone other than me, without giving reasons, and also claims that they are best chance of being mafia. So why didn't you ask him more about it and find out his answer? You kinda react to it, but it's not in a way that looks like you're suspicious of him for suspecting noonian. If anything you're supplying reasoning for him to suspect noonian (saying noonian had a weird exit to the thread). It sounds like you agree with the read! But then you vote Koshi for it? | ||
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
On January 09 2016 17:01 GGTeMpLaR wrote: I actually think that it would be very strange for him to 'design' this plan as a mafia alignment. Best case scenario he gets people to critically reread Noon's filter which, as you said, is practically nothing. It seems more intuitively correct if he's town and just wants to throw out a read. I mean, I can get that he might just randomly post something as mafia without thinking it through. Mafia do that all the time, even smart mafia. ((Especially potato mafia, as Koshi can sometimes be. Much love Koshi!)) But we can't tell that from his post. Which makes the correct line of response to talk to Koshi about it and figure out wtf he's talking about. Not just try to help supply the reasoning for Koshi, and then scumread Koshi for making the post, as slOosh did. | ||
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
On January 09 2016 11:46 Tubesock wrote: Is this going to be another game where people get towned for dumb tells or not reading the OP? GGTemp, I also wonder what you meant when you said in that first paragraph. Irrelevant or not. On January 09 2016 12:07 Tubesock wrote: gurss I never liked the too stupid/scummy to be scum type reads. Meh This was also a weird sequence of posts that I'd hate to have buried in all the discussion about slOosh and Koshi. Like... why even bring this up? What triggered the thought if, as Tubesock says, "no one" got townread for dumb tells/etc.? I mean, I get it, I hate 'em too, but I still just went "what the hell?" when these posts came up, because it didn't look like that was happening. So I'm wondering what made Tubesock say this. Tubesock why did you say this? | ||
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
On January 09 2016 16:58 darthfoley wrote: I like this Eden fellow, so crisply formatted What a charming young... man? woman? whatever. Nice to talk to you too. I think I asked you something. I for sure meant to, whether or not I actually did, and you should answer that so as to receive more crisply-formatted posts from yours truly. | ||
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
On January 09 2016 17:13 darthfoley wrote: Well, originally I thought that the conversation's direction regarding sloosh was pretty productive. It got him talking, and also gave out a decent amount of info to sift through, which you've courteously done. Out of all the active players so far, I think rayne has been the most town; his posts are well thought out and his questions are inquisitive. So, I looked at Koshi closer because he was one of the adamant Sloosh scum posters next to rayne. For me, I am mainly am just confused as to why he's been reluctant to back off Sloosh after saying he wouldn't target active townspeople on day 1. Maybe he strictly means he won't vote for active townspeople but still target them in discussion, though his grilling of Sloosh followed by a pivot towards a poster with no history seems out of place and too random for my liking. He cites "terrible" reasons that he probably won't remember in the morning, which basically provides no information about anything at all. Why couldn't he include at least an outline of something relevant? I'm unclear on Sloosh, because some of his questioning lacks a clear direction and looks kind of filler. I think Giygas is town as of now. Your point on his intuitive search for more info at the start of the game re game setup is an angle I hadn't thought of. A counterquestion. Why should Koshi be reluctant to back off? Just because he said he wouldn't lynch active players? Most pushes this early in day 1 don't lead to lynching the people being pushed. I would even go as far as to say that if your early pushes are engineered to lynch people, you're doing it wrong. The point of putting other players' feet to the fire early is to force them to make substantive statements about the game state. This is helpful regardless of whether the player is town or mafia, active or inactive, yada yada. I agree it's a bit bizarre that he pivoted over to noonian and doesn't post anything. Not leaving any reasons for it is, indeed unhelpful. But you said this: I'm also voting Koshi as it stands. The more I look at his posts, the less helpful they seem to the Town. This sounds to me more like an indictment of his entire posting history, not just his admittedly bordering-on-useless "vote/push" post. You're not telling me that of all the posts Koshi has made this day, the whole body of work is unhelpful due to this one post at the end, are you? If you are, forgive me for finding it uncompelling. I think Koshi's been of at least moderate use in generating discussion. I think his pressure on slOosh was constructive, and I would certainly not call the body of work unhelpful. You're going to have to do better than just handwave the whole thing as unhelpful. Maybe cite something specific for me outside of the noonian vote? (Or if you have nothing else, then please elaborate as to why that invalidated the rest of his posting history this game.) | ||
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
On January 09 2016 17:21 raynpelikoneet wrote: boo to yourself eden You do read what I say!  I am curious why you and slOosh seemed to just mutually drop your conversation about your divergent reads on GiygaS. Weren't you a little curious why slOosh could read the same thing you did and conclude the exact opposite thing about GiygaS's alignment? | ||
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
On January 09 2016 17:33 raynpelikoneet wrote: There is no reason for me to answer this before slOosh does. I will after that. I will just say that coming to opposite conclusion (which is btw pretty strong wording here -- since i literally stated my read is "tentative") and concluding that the other person makes sense are not mutually exclusive. They aren't exclusive, I just figured you might still be curious enough to ask. But you are right, I would much rather hear slOosh's answer on this first. On January 09 2016 17:29 darthfoley wrote: Meh, i'm starting to see why there are newbie mafia games run lol. It was a bit too shallow to vote on Koshi given the circumstances. The more I think about it, the more I do see the utility of his grilling of Sloosh near the start. It's true that he doesn't have to back off a scum read, especially because as you said, lots of people get grilled day 1 and it doesn't necessarily mean it's aimed at a lynch. I was under the impression that Koshi actually scum reads Sloosh, although it's useful info either way. The more reflective I am of the Koshi v Sloosh dynamic, the more I realize that I can't let my frustration of being kind of clueless make me jump to hasty conclusions. At this point, I can't constructively add much until Koshi explains his Noon read imo. I don't understand what was shallow about voting Koshi there. If your takeaway from my questions was "you are wrong for voting Koshi," that takeaway isn't the one I intended to convey. The takeaway was "I don't understand why you are voting Koshi" -- and you're essentially telling me you don't have much to add to the discussion until Koshi explains his read. But... you still had a reason for saying that Koshi's posts were unhelpful. After all, unless you intend to tell me your statement that "The more I look at his posts, the less helpful they seem to the Town." was made up, something you read made you think this. I just want to know what that something is. | ||
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