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On November 24 2015 07:39 NocturneMage wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2015 07:34 ritoky wrote:On November 24 2015 07:30 Fecalfeast wrote:
Nah you had me hook line and sinker I wouldn't have voted you there if I was awake rit you were my plan for mylo whether i regretted it or not; since disfo decided randomly half way through the game he not longer wanted to be in my pocket. you also wanted to save me for mylo from your posts which is why I was heavily suspicious of you. honest question, was that setup argument you were making straight up BS or is it something you would have pushed as town? that shit is honestly over my head. and from your posts you wanted to push me over disformation.
it was true and i probably would have pushed it but not so heavily as town.
basically how it works is this:
mafia notified of roles at beginning of game -> mafia knows town has 0 investigative power. this means if you can place yourself in a situation where you are so firmly embedded in town via play, that it is impossible to discover you. therefore bussing is optimal. if you lead a lynch on your partner and are very clearly the most vocal, making the arguments, and the originator of content; then the likelihood that anyone scumreads you outside of tinfoil late game is extremely low. how town usually resolves this problem is through investigations or proper tinfoil when strange people start dying; the game had 1/2 of the solution missing from town, which makes it an optimal line of play. the problem was, and the reason i didn't pursue it was because the lynch was going on breshke and not trfel who had the only relevant role in our team(in hindsight actively lynching my own RB might have been even more cred...but geript would have gotten most of it). i don't know if this is a better explanation for you.
to try and simplify it more: as mafia if you actively (not just along for the ride) kill your partners you get town reads cuz you killed mafia, the way you get caught from that position is having a meta of bussing (me), invesitgations (none in this game), or nk analysis/tinfoil (can be easily disuaded). when much of that is inherently missing from the setup bussing becomes an even more powerful tool to hide in the town. so the argument was hard defending is worse than bussing based on setup, therefore hard defending probably means not teammates.
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imo from a mafia strategy perspective on a setup that is m13 vigi + doc/vet vs rb; the ideal line of play is to set up your mafia as follows:
busser - the primary workhorse of your team, needs to be TR early, plans to bus teammate on day 2, will do day 1 if necessary
bussee - person who is least favorably viewed, entire job is to survive to day 2 and get steamrolled by teammate; should try not to get vigi shot and not be an essential role.
survivor - the failsafe, your job is to play the middle, side with the bus on your teammate, and basically be the support and backup win-con if busser gets caught; also may be forced into becoming bussee. kind of your flex player.
for example one of the more clean wins using this method was me, damdred, and GB; GB was the bussee, damdred was the busser, and i was the survivor/flex.
of course every game is different and adaptations are needed, you also have to pick your roles based on how the first 24 hours of the game goes and what perceptions are made unless you wanna force it. but generally speaking in m13 if everyone understands and commits to this method and playing as a team you're gonna get to mylo probably 8 or 9 out of 10 times and then you just need to outplay or have enough cred to win from there.
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On November 24 2015 08:28 disformation wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2015 08:22 ritoky wrote:
imo from a mafia strategy perspective on a setup that is m13 vigi + doc/vet vs rb; the ideal line of play is to set up your mafia as follows:
busser - the primary workhorse of your team, needs to be TR early, plans to bus teammate on day 2, will do day 1 if necessary
bussee - person who is least favorably viewed, entire job is to survive to day 2 and get steamrolled by teammate; should try not to get vigi shot and not be an essential role.
survivor - the failsafe, your job is to play the middle, side with the bus on your teammate, and basically be the support and backup win-con if busser gets caught; also may be forced into becoming bussee. kind of your flex player.
for example one of the more clean wins using this method was me, damdred, and GB; GB was the bussee, damdred was the busser, and i was the survivor/flex.
of course every game is different and adaptations are needed, you also have to pick your roles based on how the first 24 hours of the game goes and what perceptions are made unless you wanna force it. but generally speaking in m13 if everyone understands and commits to this method and playing as a team you're gonna get to mylo probably 8 or 9 out of 10 times and then you just need to outplay or have enough cred to win from there. Hm. Good to know. Will save that somewhere and try to remember it, should I ever manage to roll town.  TBH I so far I have put like 0 thought into long term planing and stuff, so that could screw me over, if I ever mange to roll scum.
Generally speaking from a scum coaching perspective; the #1 issue that comes about and ruins scum teams is that they think mafia is an individual game. It appears that way at times, but ultimately it is a team game; and as a team you want to communicate and construct a plan that places at least 1 of your players in the best position to win the game possible. If everyone tries to play in an individualistic and self-preservationist manner you tend to end up with a clusterfuck and no strong win condition. Whereas if teammates sacrifice themselves in the proper way to strengthen a teammate's win condition you can win with a higher rate imo. All you need is 1 alive with a great backstory to win lylo/mylo for your team, so it is better to construct that narrative than to just do your own thing. Many would disagree with me though I am sure.
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On November 24 2015 15:32 geript wrote:
A few things:
1. Re: hosting. Learning how to host is tough. Whatever you do is always wrong 99% of the time. The big thing is to learn and move forward. IDK what I would've done with Farah; I know I wouldn't have replaced Damdred into the game for another player. That said, subbing in Damdred for Farah was pretty game changing because scum had thread control somehow IDK how exactly; I don't think the sub there changed scum's ability to win, I just don't think scum adjusted well to it. Eversince should've been modkilled for sure though between inactivity and failure to vote etc.
2. Re: Trfel. As scum, you have this tendency to write shitty cases. You focus on things which are completely NAI but sound good. You push people for stupid shitty reasons. Stop. You're able to "sound good" and be convincing but I don't think any experienced player would've followed any of your pushes because they were really bad. TBH, the newer players should've picked up on this more as well.
3. Re: Breshke. You got caught on meta. Sorry bud. Even still, you need to try and put forth effort as scum. I think the major reason why people moved to default to lynch you D2 was the variety of odd things AND you were slowing in activity. Your team needs you.
4. Re: Ritoky. I think I would've caught you if I would've stayed alive longer. The no sheeping thing really was exceptionally odd; like really, really odd especially as you didn't have a hard town read on him. I was just focused on your partners more and hoped they'd figure it out on D3 when you were still alive.
5. Re: Scum as a whole. The D1 strategy was ok from what I saw: basically townread your partners when it's semi-reasonable to and push inactives. The big thing that you didn't do is set up reasonable future lynches well at all. The vig shot on VE kinda hurt you, but you guys didn't seem to have a general idea of where to go after the Scott lynch. I think it would've been more reasonable to push between Ever/Scott D1 and get Ever lynched. Since he's a coinflip regardless, you can likely then push onto scott D2. That way you get to keep crazytown Moosy helping you and you can each have 2-3 reasonable targets to push scum onto while potentially including a partner.
You didn't read the scum QT then I don't think geript. The plan from day 2 on was: trfel stays anti-farrah -> do EVERYTHING to avoid a lynch day 2 -> open of day 3 trfel claims doctor against farrah -> if accepted universally we win, if not both breshke and I insta-bus trfel and that should win it for 1 of us in mylo. It fell apart due to a sub making trfel feel he couldn't win in claim wars vs damdred and breshke quitting.
We had a very clear plan to victory at multiple points, subs and afk breshke ruined a lot of them unfortunately.
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On November 24 2015 13:34 Tictock wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2015 07:19 ritoky wrote:
About ever, the moment ever failed to vote, she also broke the activity rule; which stated direct modkill no sub considered. Either edit your OP or follow your own rules or see it coming after being gone 72 hours and push for the sub with 24 hours left in day 2. If the player hasn't come back in 72 hours they aren't coming back. That was a strange situation though. I have never seen a host modkill someone for forgetting to vote, especially not in a newbie game. The rules state that voting is mandatory, not that failing to do so will result in a modkill. My own standard, and what I have seen other Hosts do in newbies, is issue warnings to players who forgot to vote. The 2nd offense is generally when I have seen replacements/modkills become an option. Since it was apparent that Ever was no longer playing and I was already looking for a replacement I did not bother to issue a warning on the matter. I do agree that I did not react to the situation soon enough as it would have been very possible to have replaced her after the lynch or even early D2. It is definitely my fault for not being proactive regarding the situation when it was clearly a possibility from D1. Perhaps the rules could have been clearer. Obviously I just copy-pasted an OP and only edited it slightly for my needs. Next time I will make sure to update the OP to properly reflect my own standards used regarding these situations.
I have seen players modkilled for no-post + no-vote beyond day 2 before; most people prefer not to. TBH the ever thing was such a bizarre situation that it is w/e. I would have handled it x way, the next person would have handled it y. Something probably should have been done sooner, particularly when I was talking to you about it in the scum QT; but ultimately that situation probably never happens again. The real error is on the farah sub you can't ask out of a game just cuz. I made enough of a stink already, but it was an error that had massive influence on the game ultimately; so I think it warrants it. We all learn I guess? Idk
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I think it was unsalvagable. We needed breshke to do anything. Both of us had sacrificed a ton to save him day 1 and pushing on him then was counter to everything we had been doing and would also have diminishing returns. Everyone had already wanted to lynch Breshke so the potential gain for the bus was too low to really reward us. Once Breshke goes down, trfel has no chance of surviving the entire game due to hard aligning with flipped mafia; and my best bet is to go to mylo w/ Damdred who soul reads me.
The claim plan was set up very well by me and trfel. Trfel was advocating a lynch into an uncc'd blue and yelling at peole; it was a solid softing of doctor to be reaped the next day. He got dissuaded out of it and ended up just looking dumb because he didn't feel confident in sub wars; plus there was no way to avoid lynching breshke since he essentially quit.
Saving breshke day 1 was probably the biggest error the mafia team as a whole made imo in hindsight. We did a lot of dumb things to keep him alive, expecting him to play some and try to consequently keep himself alive and he just didn't. Had I known he was going to not play I would have advocated simply burying him for credit (which I almost did).
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sub wars = claim wars, too much twitch.
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EPT
