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I really really do not like this Xatalos read on rayn. Look at this:
On October 23 2015 06:54 Xatalos wrote:
Meh... maybe rayn could be scum after all? He seems a bit too similar to his last scumgame on VS. There his reads were mostly unexplained and the read progressions were rather hard to understand. He also was quite nitpicky / aggressive towards things that weren't necessarily scummy at all. It's an uncomfortable feeling I got from the last pages.
On October 23 2015 07:08 Xatalos wrote:
Hm. I mean... town rayn can be aggressive, but it's usually more focused on specifically scummy things and quite "tunnely". Like a bull seeing red and then attacking until it's dead. From my last scum experience with rayn, he shifted his stances a lot, in weird and unexplained ways. It was more like searching for an angle of attack rather than attacking something suspicious. I get an eerily similar feeling from him this game :/
On October 23 2015 07:12 Xatalos wrote:
Has anyone played with town rayn in like the last months? Has he become this... "shifty", hard to grasp as town too?
On October 23 2015 07:24 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2015 07:21 ritoky wrote:On October 23 2015 07:18 raynpelikoneet wrote:On October 23 2015 07:17 ritoky wrote:On October 23 2015 07:16 raynpelikoneet wrote:On October 23 2015 07:13 marvellosity wrote:On October 23 2015 05:10 raynpelikoneet wrote:
okay after poe i am lynching into:
Blazinghand
Xatalos
Onegu
Alakaslam
ritoky
i am pretty sure we have three mafia there. i thought you told me ritoky was town? yeah that was yesterday. On October 23 2015 06:53 ritoky wrote:On October 22 2015 12:48 raynpelikoneet wrote:
i think ritoky is town tbh On October 23 2015 05:10 raynpelikoneet wrote:
okay after poe i am lynching into:
Blazinghand
Xatalos
Onegu
Alakaslam
ritoky
i am pretty sure we have three mafia there. On October 23 2015 05:24 raynpelikoneet wrote:
I don't understand the reads on ritoky. He literally said:
"BH is town until he does something egregious enough to be considered not town."
"generally speaking he doesn't rng as mafia, but i wouldn't put it past him to break meta."
So what? He townreads Blazinghand for something he then says, in the next post, is not a reason to townread Blazinghand`!!? On October 23 2015 05:42 raynpelikoneet wrote:On October 23 2015 05:39 Blazinghand wrote:On October 23 2015 05:37 raynpelikoneet wrote:
I fail to see how i am being "aggressive" here, so could you explain BH? well, not towards me. You're actually being a little more gentle with me, compared to normal. Normally I'd expect you to end up TRing ritoky for that on your own. Maybe it's been some time since we played together, or my edge is getting dull, but I recall you being pretty good at noticing people's motivations. ritoky is a really had to read for me and i don't think he has said much of anything that could be in my opinion considered townie.Maybe it's jsut like you say and other people do not know you as well as i do (and what you can / cannot do as mafia), but still... it's really hard for me to believe both of Xatalos and ritoky actually believe you are town for your actions regarding the rng lynch. I just don't fucking buy it. nice one bro. respond. no y'know, gonna be honest here. you're the most underwhelming player that people tell me is good on these forums. i just don't see it; maybe i am the one who is so bad i can't comprehend your greatness; but i don't think that's the case. Well it's quite possible he may just be scum this game. In fact I'm leaning in that direction right now. He can be great as town.
It's like Xatalos really really wants to call rayn mafia but never actually does. He's just kind of throwing suspicion out there about "an uncomfortable feeling". And then he asks people if rayn has been "shifty"? Like he's looking for approval from other people before he actually calls rayn mafia. Xatalos does end up voting rayn, but never confidently says that he's mafia or even probable mafia. Just non-committal "he just may be scum" and "uncomfortable feelings".
What Xatalos calls "shifty" and "unexplained read changes" really is just that rayn flipped his read on ritoky (and maybe his Hopeless read?). Why doesn't he just say that then? Why ask "has town rayn been shifty?" when you could ask "does town rayn flip reads?" The first one paints rayn in a much worse light, but the second one is much clearer and more accurate to what's going on.
In addition, I honestly don't see how flipping a read is even a scum trait. Mafia don't do 180s on their reads for no reason, but town will totally 180 on reads if they reevaluate and think that they used to be wrong. As scum it's so so easy to just stick to your reads no matter what and not have to deal with the suspicion of switching them. It's possible that a townie just disagrees with me on this, but I don't think it's at all accurate to categorize it as "searching for an angle of attack". And I don't think it's at all a reasonable reason for a vote.
These just gave me a really bad feeling. It felt like he's trying to throw suspicion onto rayn without actually attacking him.
I mentioned that I was probably going to flip my read on Xatalos, so here it is. For some reason I didn't pick up on any of this the first few times around, but it started to jump out to me.
I completely agree with what gumshoe said about Xatalos' reads being very waffly:
+ Show Spoiler +On October 22 2015 09:43 gumshoe wrote:... while your here what do you think of xatalos? Personally I feel as if he dedicates alot of talk to the rng thing without actually looking into what it meant about Bh. Burning filter basically. I also get the feeling that hes using my lurky history as a way to waffle on me, thereby positioning himself to go ether way depending on town. Show nested quote +Dunno. I really don't know how gumshoe should be read. You know? I remember him being a really inactive/bad town once and he was basically policy lynched. Then he was extremely similar as scum and managed to survive like that (I even defended him because of him being similar as town earlier lol). Here he's surprisingly actually posting stuff... Or has he started generally posting lately? Show nested quote +Well so far Blazinghand and Vivax feel town. ritoky too? Not as sure about Chromatically yet. yamato and gumshoe are in the gray area.
Of course, rayn = scum. Show nested quote +Hm so you think gumshoe is lightly town? I guess his attempt at playing so far has been decent compared to my past experiences with him...... Show nested quote +Tbh I think any of yamato/gumshoe/Chromatically could be scum atm. None of them feel strongly that way though. Show nested quote +And how would you characterize his meta? My experience has been basically "scummy lurker as either alignment".
Would also like to know why you put ritoky as town as especially marv. He eventually seems to settle on me bieng town, but by then I think the general sentiment was favoring me? if that makes sense / : he just seems very wishy washy, which we all are somewhat at the start of course, but his posting comes off as very repetitive and pointless. He talks about the rng vote, but doesn't infer any reads from it, he jokes alot about the rain vote but again doesn't derive anything from it. Hes just commenting on stuff that means nothing, and cautiously testing the waters with his uncertain reads. would also explain his weird early interaction with chrom, someone hes kinda pushing but not really. I'm open to bieng wrong this game, Xata may very well just be perplexed by my bieng really active, but for now I'm reading him as red / : I go bed now. good night : D
He consistently keeps his options open. Really, go read his filter and count how many strong reads you see. He has one strong read on Vivax that he posts and that's honestly it (apart from his town feel on BH). Look at how much he says "maybe this" and things like that.
On October 22 2015 07:34 Xatalos wrote:
Well I think yamato is probably the most disturbing one of those who have already posted. It's basically nothing but empty complaining. My vote might go to him soon... Though I kind of don't want to abandon the rayn train.
Like what is this? yamato is "disturbing" and he MIGHT move his vote there? It's very non-committal.
If you don't read anything else, look at this post and keep reading from there. He says the exact same waffle about me and yamato THREE TIMES IN A ROW. This doesn't make any sense from a town perspective, but it does make sense from the perspective of a mafia who's trying to be active and show that they're "thinking about the game".
I also didn't like Xatalos' opening posts after reading them again. He starts by asking Vivax where to find a comic, and then spends a few posts talking about randomness and the Random class? Mafia often have a hard time entering the thread, and talking about irrelevant stuff like that is an easy way to do it. He posts a lot and appears active, but very few of the posts contain content. Some examples:
On October 22 2015 06:38 Xatalos wrote:
Why does marv being in the scumteam make it weak? :D
Anyways I was under the impression that TL towns have mostly beaten RNG in recent years.
On October 22 2015 06:32 Xatalos wrote:
Oh well, Java's Random uses the system clock as well, so it's a bit similar, although "more" random.
On October 22 2015 06:35 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2015 06:30 Vivax wrote:
We might already have caught mafia here since yammo doesn't reply in response to my phantastic intimidating presence.
When he's afk he's mafia. Unbeatable logic. I think I've seen him be pretty inactive/useless as scum all around, and mostly OK as town. I think there was one(?) game where he was inactive/useless as town too though.
(This one appears relevant but actually says nothing about yamato, more waffle).
Also his townread on BH doesn't make much sense like rayn has already said. Maybe he's just town and made a bad read (imo) on non-alignment indicative stuff, but I think there's a reasonable chance that as mafia Xatalos just threw out a townread without thinking about the logical town reasoning for it.
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Sorry about that wall of text and hopefully it's readable. The main points are:
- Very wishy-washy reads on everyone, very few strong reads
- Similarly wishy-washy read on rayn where he just throws suspicion
- Irrelevant first postings that feel like scum trying to enter the thread and seem active
- Townread on BH for irrational reasons (take or leave this one, you probably already have an opinion and it's not a main point)
A lot of it is also a feel/gut read I got from his posts, especially his first posts in the thread. I don't think I can explain that that well so I would look at it yourselves.
##Unvote
##Vote: Xatalos
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I haven't really changed my read on ritoky, but I think there's a better case for Xatalos right now. I get the feel that he thinks he really knows how to read BH from the fact that he talks about BH a lot, which would mean that he's less likely to be mafia just throwing a townread out there without any reason. Also I don't really get bad feelings from his posting.
GB could be mafia too. I liked how he entered the thread but his Vivax thing was weird. I don't feel very strongly about that right now though.
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GB, what did you like about this post that made you think Xatalos is town?
On October 23 2015 05:33 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2015 05:28 raynpelikoneet wrote:
There is absolutely nothing alignment indicative in your rng Blazinghand, you know it, everyone should know it. "Figuring out" something regarding it is a waste of time. Well it's kind of like... Imagine player X. He has a great record of posting a lengthy introduction post as scum when he starts the game, and as town he's so far just immediately jumped in and started posting actual content. Now in a current game he immediately makes a lengthy introduction post. Could he have done it as town to make himself harder to read? Possibly. But I'd still take into account that maybe the meta is repeating itself, no? And if you read my posts, it's not just that about Blazinghand, but more like how he was so excited about the RNG when he's several times before said that it's pro-town. It would be harder to convey that excitement as scum when he think it's so pro-town clearly.
I'm not down to lynch Vivax; I think he's been very town by laying out his reads and thought process openly. I don't think Onegu or Hopeless are particularly town but they haven't done anything terrible. I would lynch them but I think there are better options. rayn claims that he can read Hopeless so I can trust in that for a bit until I get a better idea.
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On October 23 2015 12:17 GlowingBear wrote:Also, I just went to the database and I saw that Xatalos never had a filter length bigger than 15 pages as mafia in any of his games. Carol of the Bells, for instance, is a game where he survived until day5 and had 15 pages of filter. He has more than the half of it on day1 here. So lynching Xatalos today is COMPLETELY out of the question IMO. For reference, here is my meta case on Xatalos that happened to be right on Carol of the Bells, for anyone who is interested. I don't know if it makes Xata town or Mafia here, I didn't re-read it (lol), I'm just bringing it here for the sake of more information. + Show Spoiler [metacase] +On December 22 2014 11:21 GlowingBear wrote:So, if we talk about town Xatalos, we are mostly talking about an absurd filter length. But more than filter length, Xatalos is a guy who keeps his thoughts in the thread, not in his mind, and is constantly trying to solve the game. I've picked up a game where we played together, it was Guilty Mini Mafia. This is a post he had on his second page of filter: + Show Spoiler +On August 22 2014 19:17 Xatalos wrote:
Damdred -1 Pretty forgettable posts so far instead of awkward like last time.... scum(my)?
raynpelikoneet -1 Robik made a funny point about the way how rayn would have stayed up as town (and he even said that he would stay for the deadline too??) haha - started really aggressive after that, nothing really special to say about that, just a bit of an uncomfortable feeling with the not posting at night despite apparently staying up around the deadline... and somehow his reads feel a bit too certain/forced? let's just say null with some concern for now
Hapahauli 0
justanothertownie 0
Onegu 0
VayneAuthority 0
IAmRobik 1 Casually townreading people etc. just feels a bit towny, probably
KelsierSC 1 "tryhardish" opening post that is actually fluff - and the theme continues.... :/ ugh so awkward, but also confrontational, so maybe just awkwardly tryhard? - really eager to lynch "useless" people ugh..? what is this... well continues to antagonize people so prolly town maybe? dunno... well seems so tryhard that I guess town maybe
yamato77 1 said nothing noteworthy yet - well started making some jokey posts so town?
turtlevine 2 obvious smurf... pretty funny/constructive opening post, townish feels I guess
GlowingBear 4 a LOT less awkward than in the Arnie game IMO, so town? yeah seems pretty natural at posting overall, and constructive, so towntown
WaveOfShadow 4 Reveals willingly which players he's confident in reading and responds to Kelsier in a pretty casual/townish(?) way - really casual posting style so town lean for now You see, he is someone who has reads on a lot of people and contributes with discussion by exteriorising them. More than that, he takes original stances on people. Here is another post by Xatalos on day 1: + Show Spoiler +On August 23 2014 00:08 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 23:58 raynpelikoneet wrote:
So far were doing good.
We are not lynching me, KSC, JAT or Robik in any case. Because we are town.
Hapa and Onge have not postesd yet so there is at least one scum in active players.
I am leaning scum on Wave and Glowingbear, strongly.
Is there anyone who thinks they are town? KSC - yeah probably town, really feels like he believes his own ideas and pushes them strongly without care for how he's viewed as a result jat - no idea, how do you townread him so strongly? he had a humongous filter as scum earlier so not activity... and he immediately jumped to discredit me without calling me scum when you called me scum... I just can't feel the strong townread so help me here Robik - not as sure as last game but yeah leaning town for being pretty active and posting stuff you - still not sure, I think you're very capable of doing everything you've done so far as scum so hard to townread you WOS - my earlier townread on him was a bit faulty so I don't really anyhow heavily townread him anymore, why is he scum though? GB - I don't necessarily think he's town anymore, his weird connection read on me+WOS, curiousness about someone townreading him, and overall awkward posts lately don't look good... could be scum I guess You see, he is already giving reads on a lot of people. But more than this: he is contributing without being asked to contribute. Take a look at the nested quote. Rayn isn't directing a question towards Xatalos. Xatalos is posting this because he wanted to contribute, he wanted to discuss his reads. I'll go ahead into later days to show you that he keeps the "solving the game" stance throughout the whole thread: + Show Spoiler +On August 27 2014 01:15 Xatalos wrote:
Still weird that he refused to vote for Robik when 1) he claimed to follow jat's lead and jat voted for Robik 2) he didn't have any real opinion of Robik (except "Robik being Robik") and didn't exactly townread me, but agreed with me a lot and didn't seem to at least suspect me. On August 26 2014 02:17 Xatalos wrote:
Actually I just had a thought. In the Arnie game Damdred constantly asked me these little questions to share my reads more / make me more readable. Damdred's play here reminds me a lot of that. So yeah, I don't want to lynch Damdred today. On August 26 2014 02:50 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2014 02:32 KelsierSC wrote:
Xat Could you give me a condensed version of how you read the game right now after the night kills and the VA claim? Here are my "condensed" reads >.> VayneAuthority -2 not really a fan of his posts so far, I think someone said that he's pretty serious as scum and trolly as town? serious so far... seems to focus only on survival + made a rather dubious roleclaim claimed JOAT early on D2 "to survive" Onegu -1 AFK and still catching up :/ - entered the game constructively and tried to figure out the game, probably town... Hapa made good points about him being reckless to push rayn as scum + showing suspicion towards a Mason claim haha - well hasn't done much lately so dropped points - rayn flipping town puts him into worse light especially since he just threw his vote on rayn and disappeared Damdred 1 Pretty forgettable posts so far instead of awkward like last time.... scum(my)? - actually his more recent posts mirror my thoughts so town? - rayn made a decent(ish) point about him perhaps being SK since he's a bit forgettable/passive??? and also looked for bluetells earlier... but still not a D1 lynch - worst D1 deadline vote, not good - actually his little questions to me remind a lot of the Arnie game so rather wait and see than lynch for now, feels like potentially town Hapahauli 2 entered with great posts on rayn & me, quite confident that he's town - then dropped rayn suddenly, weird, possible scum after all? dunno, doesn't feel like a good D1 lynch anyway - went on to lynch Mafia GF which makes him a lot more towny - possible SK still considering rayn NK? KelsierSC 3 "tryhardish" opening post that is actually fluff - and the theme continues.... :/ ugh so awkward, but also confrontational, so maybe just awkwardly tryhard? - really eager to lynch "useless" people ugh..? what is this... well continues to antagonize people so prolly town maybe? dunno... well seems so tryhard that I guess town maybe... yeah I guess so - well he's been defending rayn and pushing me with very forced reasons so not confident about him being town anymore (though he'd be very stupid if he's scum with rayn) - well more likely town still, very fearless if scum WaveOfShadow 3 Reveals willingly which players he's confident in reading and responds to Kelsier in a pretty casual/townish(?) way - really casual posting style so town lean for now - really active/chatty in Championship as scum though so could be scum too - but he's still pretty happily participating in the discussion and felt genuinely frustrated at some point so town after all? - away for a lot of crucial discussion which drops his points by one - well he's come back to the thread and his posts seem pretty good lately - his thoughts resonated with my thoughts around deadline quite a bit which is good yamato77 3 said nothing noteworthy yet - well started making some jokey posts so town? very lurky though which is scummy for him - re-entered the thread with vengeance and has been very townish, I'd say even obvtown level pretty much - Hapa made some good points about him lacking confidence and going on lurking periods though - still (actively?) lurking and posting here and there... gave up exactly like in the PYP game ALERT ALERT - went on to vote & kill Robik though and started actually doing stuff so probably town after all Look at how he has opinion on everybody and shares it with everyone. Look at how he tried to see things from people's perspective. Look at how he has a thought and posts it in the thread to share his opinion with everybody. This is town Xatalos. ************** Mafia Xatalos is determined by suing the necessary, asking questions, and not really having original thoughts and stances. Moreover, he doesn't have an overall view of the game. + Show Spoiler +On December 10 2013 06:49 Xatalos wrote:
Kushm4sta, by the way, I hope you're planning to play this game seriously. I've witnessed several games that you've partly ruined by lurking or worse.
If you're scum, you can get policy lynched. That's fine. High level of certainty/aggressiveness, uncommon on his townplay described above. + Show Spoiler +On December 10 2013 07:43 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 07:36 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:24 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:21 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:19 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:17 LSB wrote:
I think we need to calm down. My "townie on townie day 1 shitstorm" sense is tingling.
That speaking, oddly enough it does encourage a Xatalos lynch Whom do you feel are townies from this and why? It hasn't really been one on one. It's been HF and Xatalos against Cora, and myself, Alakaslam and you against Xatalos. If you feel it's townie on townie, then you'd think Xatalos was town. So far I think I am townie, I haven't really thought past that. I just don't think this day 1 attitude is gonna be very productive. The whole entire Xatalos suspicion does require a meta read on Xatalos to see if he is brilliant enough to try for the plan on day 1, or does he just play like this. I just skimmed through the filter he linked and I don't think it looks like the start of this game at all. He's far more aggressive here. What were you trying to say exactly with your initial post if you didn't mean to give anyone a town read but yourself? I'm confused. I don't think a plan other than "starting shit" is required for scum. That's always a good thing. In my opinion natural scum play is to stay low, especially on day 1, the town tends to self destruct anyways day 1. This whole entire "starting shit" strat is actually pretty good, even though it is counterintuitive to the idea of trying to not draw attention. Thus I assumed this strat is not very obvious, especially since I personally never considered it. This is all pure speculation. Something more grounded is that Xatalos is definably acting very different from before, and in my eyes less of a townie Well, that game is special in the sense that it started during night and nights were PM-only within given Houses. I definitely put pressure on gumshoe and Grackaroni during the night, I'd say. And I was relatively aggressive during the first day, as well. Probably not as aggressive as here, I agree. Do you mean that passive = townish and aggressive/proactive = scummy? Or what? I can't really see myself playing like this as scum. It'd have to be pretty carefully crafted at least. Too defensive when inquired, lacking deep reads on people. + Show Spoiler +On December 10 2013 08:09 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 08:01 Holyflare wrote:On December 10 2013 07:42 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:36 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:24 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:21 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:19 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:17 LSB wrote:
I think we need to calm down. My "townie on townie day 1 shitstorm" sense is tingling.
That speaking, oddly enough it does encourage a Xatalos lynch Whom do you feel are townies from this and why? It hasn't really been one on one. It's been HF and Xatalos against Cora, and myself, Alakaslam and you against Xatalos. If you feel it's townie on townie, then you'd think Xatalos was town. So far I think I am townie, I haven't really thought past that. I just don't think this day 1 attitude is gonna be very productive. The whole entire Xatalos suspicion does require a meta read on Xatalos to see if he is brilliant enough to try for the plan on day 1, or does he just play like this. I just skimmed through the filter he linked and I don't think it looks like the start of this game at all. He's far more aggressive here. What were you trying to say exactly with your initial post if you didn't mean to give anyone a town read but yourself? I'm confused. I don't think a plan other than "starting shit" is required for scum. That's always a good thing. In my opinion natural scum play is to stay low, especially on day 1, the town tends to self destruct anyways day 1. This whole entire "starting shit" strat is actually pretty good, even though it is counterintuitive to the idea of trying to not draw attention. Thus I assumed this strat is not very obvious, especially since I personally never considered it. This is all pure speculation. Something more grounded is that Xatalos is definably acting very different from before, and in my eyes less of a townie I don't feel like Xatalos put himself in the spotlight as much as trying to put others in the spotlight. Corazon put himself in the spotlight without any scum gain. When you look at his post from a scum point of view, it doesn't make sense for them to make it. I can see a scum agenda behind Xatalos' posts. That said, I do like his view on my pressure on him in that it was nuanced rather than trying to score town points. The rest of the day should provide more information. On December 10 2013 07:36 Holyflare wrote:Nobody going to discuss cora's mindset or are you going to dismiss it outright for xantos discussion some more? On December 10 2013 06:52 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Holy, I don't feel like his response is that different. I also don't think he'd put himself out there so much at the start of the game. No reason to draw attention to yourself like that as scum. Given you quoted me I take it you'd like a response from me? I don't find Corazon scummy at this point in time because he drew attention to himself without any scum benefit. Is it not also a scum mindset to heavily defend themselves when attacked, unnaturally so? Also while defending themselves to then deflect upon another person? Why are you only looking for the people that are "starting shit"? I only know a few scum that play that way. Have you any scum meta on Xatalos that suggests he plays like he is? I don't like how you're so dismissive over cora without discussion when with Xantos you skim the filters to discuss him further. On December 10 2013 06:52 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Holy, I don't feel like his response is that different. I also don't think he'd put himself out there so much at the start of the game. No reason to draw attention to yourself like that as scum. On December 10 2013 07:24 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:21 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:19 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:17 LSB wrote:
I think we need to calm down. My "townie on townie day 1 shitstorm" sense is tingling.
That speaking, oddly enough it does encourage a Xatalos lynch Whom do you feel are townies from this and why? It hasn't really been one on one. It's been HF and Xatalos against Cora, and myself, Alakaslam and you against Xatalos. If you feel it's townie on townie, then you'd think Xatalos was town. So far I think I am townie, I haven't really thought past that. I just don't think this day 1 attitude is gonna be very productive. The whole entire Xatalos suspicion does require a meta read on Xatalos to see if he is brilliant enough to try for the plan on day 1, or does he just play like this. I just skimmed through the filter he linked and I don't think it looks like the start of this game at all. He's far more aggressive here. What were you trying to say exactly with your initial post if you didn't mean to give anyone a town read but yourself? I'm confused. I don't think a plan other than "starting shit" is required for scum. That's always a good thing. Look at the difference between these two points - on the one hand (cora) is dismissed by saying "I don't think scum plays that way" whereas the second (Xatalos) is "I have skimmed it briefly and think it's different because X,Y,Z. Question, question. _____________________________ In regards to the point that you made about cora, I don't think he's "putting himself out there" like you suggest, he said that he couldn't dedicate some time towards the game but would still post actively and got picked up on it and was like OMGNUUWRONGRAWRRR!!!!!! and then didn't discuss why with people further or indicate that he had reads on other people because of what happened. He left the thread and then returned when people started mentioning Xatalos and piggybacked upon that with no new reasoning other than what people had said before. He mentions how people in the thread were piggybacking previously (me, etc.) and had qualms with them but then does the same thing here: On December 10 2013 07:10 Corazon wrote:
I do feel like Slam was right as well. If Xatalos was using good logic and pushing me like a townie, I wouldn't have a problem with him. However, he is using faulty logic on purpose and trying to pass it off as correct when in fact his conclusions only come about because he needs to fake pressure on me. This is contradictary with his previous approach of disliking people that piggybacking and is essentially +1ing another players points. Take this in B2B for example, people had a bad read on him and he DISCUSSED why it was bad: On November 21 2013 01:00 Corazon wrote:
When did I say that sciberia was bad town? Please find a post where I said he was bad town.
I didn't vote for sciberia because 0% of wagons in the first 2 hours of a game actually get to the deadline? None. What is the point of vote-jumping? It just allows people to skim my cases once they see the bold vote and only really look at it once it's my turn to be under the gun. Voting for people at this stage is pretty useless because it's not going to get a lynch going. I guarantee you that our reads and opinions are going to change before the deadline and it's useless to lock yourself in (or at least making a statement saying you are going to) 2 hours into a game.
That case was confirmation bias because you took 1-2 decent points about me (which alone are not enough to justify a vote or my lynching) and then supplemented them with saying "Corazon is doing stuff that he always does in every game, he has to be scum for it in this one". He mentions WHY the case was bad etc etc, discusses it and outlines why he thinks it was bad croming from X player. Where is that here? It was a dissmissal of a case from me and a sheep onto townish consesus Xatalos. __________________________________________ I don't like how these things are most definitely brushed off for simplicity that "I don't think scum do this" when there is a body of evidence that suggests a player does not play like this. Vote Cora for best lynch. These are definitely some good points. It's surely premature to declare Corazon as today's lynch, but it would be a good pick in the current situation. I dislike Artanis's dismissal of Corazon's play as well, but I doubt Artanis and Corazon would be scum together. It would seem risky to make a connection like that. That's WIFOM, though. Commenting others ideas without actually bringing his own to the table. Says something wishy washy without risking himself with his reads ********* Xatalos is playing much more like his scum game than his town game here. This is specific and out of context, but illustrates what I'm saying: + Show Spoiler +On December 18 2014 23:31 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 23:22 rsoultin wrote:
Okay -_- So for those of you who don't like wall posts I will make my stance simple. Most of my points on GB could happen as either town or mafia. Town can flip their reads on a gut read (odd that the one it protects is scum, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything) to someone instead of focusing on genuinely scummy behavior. Town can digress into a "town only gives presents to town" WIFOM for no reason. Town can speculate on set-ups and base scum reads on that. Town can tunnel. All of these things together look worse...or at least make the player look like a bad town player...but there are a couple things that are scum-motivated that have no town motivation at all:
- Continually calling for mass claiming in an open set-up where scum has 2-3KSs.Or calling for certain individuals to claim (carolers, those who were roleblocked, vet)
- Attempting to take credit for a lynch when he did not catch the lie, and furthermore did not vote for the player being lynched, when he clearly had enough time to do so. His defense that he was trying to see who would jump onto a third train was never followed through on...he is back on his old soapbox today.
^ There are no reasons that these are town behaviors. Plain and simple. You can ignore everything else and write it off as a pisspoor town player, but there are no reasons for a town player to do these two things.
HF may well be scum, I don't know. But I haven't seen him do scummy things, and I have seen GB do a multitude. Again, if you want to base your lynch decisions on WIFOM, presents, and set-up speculation...be my guest. Don't be surprised if it comes back to bite you in the arse though. Yeah I agree. For both of those the scum motivation is strong and the town motivation is non-existent. I like Templar as scum too, though. But at least he hasn't actively pushed scum agenda. ##Vote GlowingBear This is Xat agreeing with an idea which is not his own, going against a townie, which he had no deep read or strong push. He also doesn't have any list post like I've brought from Guilty Mini Mafia. (Town game: Guilty Mini Mafia Scum game: Titanic II)( (I'd also like to add up that reading this game has been delightful. I can't say how much I prefer a concise AND precise thread like this)
The filter length argument is good. But why would you only look at filter length and clear Xatalos on that when you have a whole prewritten meta case you could have looked at?
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On October 23 2015 13:26 GlowingBear wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2015 12:30 Chromatically wrote:On October 23 2015 12:17 GlowingBear wrote:Also, I just went to the database and I saw that Xatalos never had a filter length bigger than 15 pages as mafia in any of his games. Carol of the Bells, for instance, is a game where he survived until day5 and had 15 pages of filter. He has more than the half of it on day1 here. So lynching Xatalos today is COMPLETELY out of the question IMO. For reference, here is my meta case on Xatalos that happened to be right on Carol of the Bells, for anyone who is interested. I don't know if it makes Xata town or Mafia here, I didn't re-read it (lol), I'm just bringing it here for the sake of more information. + Show Spoiler [metacase] +On December 22 2014 11:21 GlowingBear wrote:So, if we talk about town Xatalos, we are mostly talking about an absurd filter length. But more than filter length, Xatalos is a guy who keeps his thoughts in the thread, not in his mind, and is constantly trying to solve the game. I've picked up a game where we played together, it was Guilty Mini Mafia. This is a post he had on his second page of filter: + Show Spoiler +On August 22 2014 19:17 Xatalos wrote:
Damdred -1 Pretty forgettable posts so far instead of awkward like last time.... scum(my)?
raynpelikoneet -1 Robik made a funny point about the way how rayn would have stayed up as town (and he even said that he would stay for the deadline too??) haha - started really aggressive after that, nothing really special to say about that, just a bit of an uncomfortable feeling with the not posting at night despite apparently staying up around the deadline... and somehow his reads feel a bit too certain/forced? let's just say null with some concern for now
Hapahauli 0
justanothertownie 0
Onegu 0
VayneAuthority 0
IAmRobik 1 Casually townreading people etc. just feels a bit towny, probably
KelsierSC 1 "tryhardish" opening post that is actually fluff - and the theme continues.... :/ ugh so awkward, but also confrontational, so maybe just awkwardly tryhard? - really eager to lynch "useless" people ugh..? what is this... well continues to antagonize people so prolly town maybe? dunno... well seems so tryhard that I guess town maybe
yamato77 1 said nothing noteworthy yet - well started making some jokey posts so town?
turtlevine 2 obvious smurf... pretty funny/constructive opening post, townish feels I guess
GlowingBear 4 a LOT less awkward than in the Arnie game IMO, so town? yeah seems pretty natural at posting overall, and constructive, so towntown
WaveOfShadow 4 Reveals willingly which players he's confident in reading and responds to Kelsier in a pretty casual/townish(?) way - really casual posting style so town lean for now You see, he is someone who has reads on a lot of people and contributes with discussion by exteriorising them. More than that, he takes original stances on people. Here is another post by Xatalos on day 1: + Show Spoiler +On August 23 2014 00:08 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 23:58 raynpelikoneet wrote:
So far were doing good.
We are not lynching me, KSC, JAT or Robik in any case. Because we are town.
Hapa and Onge have not postesd yet so there is at least one scum in active players.
I am leaning scum on Wave and Glowingbear, strongly.
Is there anyone who thinks they are town? KSC - yeah probably town, really feels like he believes his own ideas and pushes them strongly without care for how he's viewed as a result jat - no idea, how do you townread him so strongly? he had a humongous filter as scum earlier so not activity... and he immediately jumped to discredit me without calling me scum when you called me scum... I just can't feel the strong townread so help me here Robik - not as sure as last game but yeah leaning town for being pretty active and posting stuff you - still not sure, I think you're very capable of doing everything you've done so far as scum so hard to townread you WOS - my earlier townread on him was a bit faulty so I don't really anyhow heavily townread him anymore, why is he scum though? GB - I don't necessarily think he's town anymore, his weird connection read on me+WOS, curiousness about someone townreading him, and overall awkward posts lately don't look good... could be scum I guess You see, he is already giving reads on a lot of people. But more than this: he is contributing without being asked to contribute. Take a look at the nested quote. Rayn isn't directing a question towards Xatalos. Xatalos is posting this because he wanted to contribute, he wanted to discuss his reads. I'll go ahead into later days to show you that he keeps the "solving the game" stance throughout the whole thread: + Show Spoiler +On August 27 2014 01:15 Xatalos wrote:
Still weird that he refused to vote for Robik when 1) he claimed to follow jat's lead and jat voted for Robik 2) he didn't have any real opinion of Robik (except "Robik being Robik") and didn't exactly townread me, but agreed with me a lot and didn't seem to at least suspect me. On August 26 2014 02:17 Xatalos wrote:
Actually I just had a thought. In the Arnie game Damdred constantly asked me these little questions to share my reads more / make me more readable. Damdred's play here reminds me a lot of that. So yeah, I don't want to lynch Damdred today. On August 26 2014 02:50 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2014 02:32 KelsierSC wrote:
Xat Could you give me a condensed version of how you read the game right now after the night kills and the VA claim? Here are my "condensed" reads >.> VayneAuthority -2 not really a fan of his posts so far, I think someone said that he's pretty serious as scum and trolly as town? serious so far... seems to focus only on survival + made a rather dubious roleclaim claimed JOAT early on D2 "to survive" Onegu -1 AFK and still catching up :/ - entered the game constructively and tried to figure out the game, probably town... Hapa made good points about him being reckless to push rayn as scum + showing suspicion towards a Mason claim haha - well hasn't done much lately so dropped points - rayn flipping town puts him into worse light especially since he just threw his vote on rayn and disappeared Damdred 1 Pretty forgettable posts so far instead of awkward like last time.... scum(my)? - actually his more recent posts mirror my thoughts so town? - rayn made a decent(ish) point about him perhaps being SK since he's a bit forgettable/passive??? and also looked for bluetells earlier... but still not a D1 lynch - worst D1 deadline vote, not good - actually his little questions to me remind a lot of the Arnie game so rather wait and see than lynch for now, feels like potentially town Hapahauli 2 entered with great posts on rayn & me, quite confident that he's town - then dropped rayn suddenly, weird, possible scum after all? dunno, doesn't feel like a good D1 lynch anyway - went on to lynch Mafia GF which makes him a lot more towny - possible SK still considering rayn NK? KelsierSC 3 "tryhardish" opening post that is actually fluff - and the theme continues.... :/ ugh so awkward, but also confrontational, so maybe just awkwardly tryhard? - really eager to lynch "useless" people ugh..? what is this... well continues to antagonize people so prolly town maybe? dunno... well seems so tryhard that I guess town maybe... yeah I guess so - well he's been defending rayn and pushing me with very forced reasons so not confident about him being town anymore (though he'd be very stupid if he's scum with rayn) - well more likely town still, very fearless if scum WaveOfShadow 3 Reveals willingly which players he's confident in reading and responds to Kelsier in a pretty casual/townish(?) way - really casual posting style so town lean for now - really active/chatty in Championship as scum though so could be scum too - but he's still pretty happily participating in the discussion and felt genuinely frustrated at some point so town after all? - away for a lot of crucial discussion which drops his points by one - well he's come back to the thread and his posts seem pretty good lately - his thoughts resonated with my thoughts around deadline quite a bit which is good yamato77 3 said nothing noteworthy yet - well started making some jokey posts so town? very lurky though which is scummy for him - re-entered the thread with vengeance and has been very townish, I'd say even obvtown level pretty much - Hapa made some good points about him lacking confidence and going on lurking periods though - still (actively?) lurking and posting here and there... gave up exactly like in the PYP game ALERT ALERT - went on to vote & kill Robik though and started actually doing stuff so probably town after all Look at how he has opinion on everybody and shares it with everyone. Look at how he tried to see things from people's perspective. Look at how he has a thought and posts it in the thread to share his opinion with everybody. This is town Xatalos. ************** Mafia Xatalos is determined by suing the necessary, asking questions, and not really having original thoughts and stances. Moreover, he doesn't have an overall view of the game. + Show Spoiler +On December 10 2013 06:49 Xatalos wrote:
Kushm4sta, by the way, I hope you're planning to play this game seriously. I've witnessed several games that you've partly ruined by lurking or worse.
If you're scum, you can get policy lynched. That's fine. High level of certainty/aggressiveness, uncommon on his townplay described above. + Show Spoiler +On December 10 2013 07:43 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 07:36 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:24 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:21 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:19 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:17 LSB wrote:
I think we need to calm down. My "townie on townie day 1 shitstorm" sense is tingling.
That speaking, oddly enough it does encourage a Xatalos lynch Whom do you feel are townies from this and why? It hasn't really been one on one. It's been HF and Xatalos against Cora, and myself, Alakaslam and you against Xatalos. If you feel it's townie on townie, then you'd think Xatalos was town. So far I think I am townie, I haven't really thought past that. I just don't think this day 1 attitude is gonna be very productive. The whole entire Xatalos suspicion does require a meta read on Xatalos to see if he is brilliant enough to try for the plan on day 1, or does he just play like this. I just skimmed through the filter he linked and I don't think it looks like the start of this game at all. He's far more aggressive here. What were you trying to say exactly with your initial post if you didn't mean to give anyone a town read but yourself? I'm confused. I don't think a plan other than "starting shit" is required for scum. That's always a good thing. In my opinion natural scum play is to stay low, especially on day 1, the town tends to self destruct anyways day 1. This whole entire "starting shit" strat is actually pretty good, even though it is counterintuitive to the idea of trying to not draw attention. Thus I assumed this strat is not very obvious, especially since I personally never considered it. This is all pure speculation. Something more grounded is that Xatalos is definably acting very different from before, and in my eyes less of a townie Well, that game is special in the sense that it started during night and nights were PM-only within given Houses. I definitely put pressure on gumshoe and Grackaroni during the night, I'd say. And I was relatively aggressive during the first day, as well. Probably not as aggressive as here, I agree. Do you mean that passive = townish and aggressive/proactive = scummy? Or what? I can't really see myself playing like this as scum. It'd have to be pretty carefully crafted at least. Too defensive when inquired, lacking deep reads on people. + Show Spoiler +On December 10 2013 08:09 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 08:01 Holyflare wrote:On December 10 2013 07:42 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:36 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:24 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:21 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:19 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:17 LSB wrote:
I think we need to calm down. My "townie on townie day 1 shitstorm" sense is tingling.
That speaking, oddly enough it does encourage a Xatalos lynch Whom do you feel are townies from this and why? It hasn't really been one on one. It's been HF and Xatalos against Cora, and myself, Alakaslam and you against Xatalos. If you feel it's townie on townie, then you'd think Xatalos was town. So far I think I am townie, I haven't really thought past that. I just don't think this day 1 attitude is gonna be very productive. The whole entire Xatalos suspicion does require a meta read on Xatalos to see if he is brilliant enough to try for the plan on day 1, or does he just play like this. I just skimmed through the filter he linked and I don't think it looks like the start of this game at all. He's far more aggressive here. What were you trying to say exactly with your initial post if you didn't mean to give anyone a town read but yourself? I'm confused. I don't think a plan other than "starting shit" is required for scum. That's always a good thing. In my opinion natural scum play is to stay low, especially on day 1, the town tends to self destruct anyways day 1. This whole entire "starting shit" strat is actually pretty good, even though it is counterintuitive to the idea of trying to not draw attention. Thus I assumed this strat is not very obvious, especially since I personally never considered it. This is all pure speculation. Something more grounded is that Xatalos is definably acting very different from before, and in my eyes less of a townie I don't feel like Xatalos put himself in the spotlight as much as trying to put others in the spotlight. Corazon put himself in the spotlight without any scum gain. When you look at his post from a scum point of view, it doesn't make sense for them to make it. I can see a scum agenda behind Xatalos' posts. That said, I do like his view on my pressure on him in that it was nuanced rather than trying to score town points. The rest of the day should provide more information. On December 10 2013 07:36 Holyflare wrote:Nobody going to discuss cora's mindset or are you going to dismiss it outright for xantos discussion some more? On December 10 2013 06:52 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Holy, I don't feel like his response is that different. I also don't think he'd put himself out there so much at the start of the game. No reason to draw attention to yourself like that as scum. Given you quoted me I take it you'd like a response from me? I don't find Corazon scummy at this point in time because he drew attention to himself without any scum benefit. Is it not also a scum mindset to heavily defend themselves when attacked, unnaturally so? Also while defending themselves to then deflect upon another person? Why are you only looking for the people that are "starting shit"? I only know a few scum that play that way. Have you any scum meta on Xatalos that suggests he plays like he is? I don't like how you're so dismissive over cora without discussion when with Xantos you skim the filters to discuss him further. On December 10 2013 06:52 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Holy, I don't feel like his response is that different. I also don't think he'd put himself out there so much at the start of the game. No reason to draw attention to yourself like that as scum. On December 10 2013 07:24 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:21 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:19 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:17 LSB wrote:
I think we need to calm down. My "townie on townie day 1 shitstorm" sense is tingling.
That speaking, oddly enough it does encourage a Xatalos lynch Whom do you feel are townies from this and why? It hasn't really been one on one. It's been HF and Xatalos against Cora, and myself, Alakaslam and you against Xatalos. If you feel it's townie on townie, then you'd think Xatalos was town. So far I think I am townie, I haven't really thought past that. I just don't think this day 1 attitude is gonna be very productive. The whole entire Xatalos suspicion does require a meta read on Xatalos to see if he is brilliant enough to try for the plan on day 1, or does he just play like this. I just skimmed through the filter he linked and I don't think it looks like the start of this game at all. He's far more aggressive here. What were you trying to say exactly with your initial post if you didn't mean to give anyone a town read but yourself? I'm confused. I don't think a plan other than "starting shit" is required for scum. That's always a good thing. Look at the difference between these two points - on the one hand (cora) is dismissed by saying "I don't think scum plays that way" whereas the second (Xatalos) is "I have skimmed it briefly and think it's different because X,Y,Z. Question, question. _____________________________ In regards to the point that you made about cora, I don't think he's "putting himself out there" like you suggest, he said that he couldn't dedicate some time towards the game but would still post actively and got picked up on it and was like OMGNUUWRONGRAWRRR!!!!!! and then didn't discuss why with people further or indicate that he had reads on other people because of what happened. He left the thread and then returned when people started mentioning Xatalos and piggybacked upon that with no new reasoning other than what people had said before. He mentions how people in the thread were piggybacking previously (me, etc.) and had qualms with them but then does the same thing here: On December 10 2013 07:10 Corazon wrote:
I do feel like Slam was right as well. If Xatalos was using good logic and pushing me like a townie, I wouldn't have a problem with him. However, he is using faulty logic on purpose and trying to pass it off as correct when in fact his conclusions only come about because he needs to fake pressure on me. This is contradictary with his previous approach of disliking people that piggybacking and is essentially +1ing another players points. Take this in B2B for example, people had a bad read on him and he DISCUSSED why it was bad: On November 21 2013 01:00 Corazon wrote:
When did I say that sciberia was bad town? Please find a post where I said he was bad town.
I didn't vote for sciberia because 0% of wagons in the first 2 hours of a game actually get to the deadline? None. What is the point of vote-jumping? It just allows people to skim my cases once they see the bold vote and only really look at it once it's my turn to be under the gun. Voting for people at this stage is pretty useless because it's not going to get a lynch going. I guarantee you that our reads and opinions are going to change before the deadline and it's useless to lock yourself in (or at least making a statement saying you are going to) 2 hours into a game.
That case was confirmation bias because you took 1-2 decent points about me (which alone are not enough to justify a vote or my lynching) and then supplemented them with saying "Corazon is doing stuff that he always does in every game, he has to be scum for it in this one". He mentions WHY the case was bad etc etc, discusses it and outlines why he thinks it was bad croming from X player. Where is that here? It was a dissmissal of a case from me and a sheep onto townish consesus Xatalos. __________________________________________ I don't like how these things are most definitely brushed off for simplicity that "I don't think scum do this" when there is a body of evidence that suggests a player does not play like this. Vote Cora for best lynch. These are definitely some good points. It's surely premature to declare Corazon as today's lynch, but it would be a good pick in the current situation. I dislike Artanis's dismissal of Corazon's play as well, but I doubt Artanis and Corazon would be scum together. It would seem risky to make a connection like that. That's WIFOM, though. Commenting others ideas without actually bringing his own to the table. Says something wishy washy without risking himself with his reads ********* Xatalos is playing much more like his scum game than his town game here. This is specific and out of context, but illustrates what I'm saying: + Show Spoiler +On December 18 2014 23:31 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 23:22 rsoultin wrote:
Okay -_- So for those of you who don't like wall posts I will make my stance simple. Most of my points on GB could happen as either town or mafia. Town can flip their reads on a gut read (odd that the one it protects is scum, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything) to someone instead of focusing on genuinely scummy behavior. Town can digress into a "town only gives presents to town" WIFOM for no reason. Town can speculate on set-ups and base scum reads on that. Town can tunnel. All of these things together look worse...or at least make the player look like a bad town player...but there are a couple things that are scum-motivated that have no town motivation at all:
- Continually calling for mass claiming in an open set-up where scum has 2-3KSs.Or calling for certain individuals to claim (carolers, those who were roleblocked, vet)
- Attempting to take credit for a lynch when he did not catch the lie, and furthermore did not vote for the player being lynched, when he clearly had enough time to do so. His defense that he was trying to see who would jump onto a third train was never followed through on...he is back on his old soapbox today.
^ There are no reasons that these are town behaviors. Plain and simple. You can ignore everything else and write it off as a pisspoor town player, but there are no reasons for a town player to do these two things.
HF may well be scum, I don't know. But I haven't seen him do scummy things, and I have seen GB do a multitude. Again, if you want to base your lynch decisions on WIFOM, presents, and set-up speculation...be my guest. Don't be surprised if it comes back to bite you in the arse though. Yeah I agree. For both of those the scum motivation is strong and the town motivation is non-existent. I like Templar as scum too, though. But at least he hasn't actively pushed scum agenda. ##Vote GlowingBear This is Xat agreeing with an idea which is not his own, going against a townie, which he had no deep read or strong push. He also doesn't have any list post like I've brought from Guilty Mini Mafia. (Town game: Guilty Mini Mafia Scum game: Titanic II)( (I'd also like to add up that reading this game has been delightful. I can't say how much I prefer a concise AND precise thread like this) The filter length argument is good. But why would you only look at filter length and clear Xatalos on that when you have a whole prewritten meta case you could have looked at? It takes less effort to click on filter than to actually read the case  Show nested quote +On October 23 2015 12:23 Chromatically wrote:GB, what did you like about this post that made you think Xatalos is town? On October 23 2015 05:33 Xatalos wrote:On October 23 2015 05:28 raynpelikoneet wrote:
There is absolutely nothing alignment indicative in your rng Blazinghand, you know it, everyone should know it. "Figuring out" something regarding it is a waste of time. Well it's kind of like... Imagine player X. He has a great record of posting a lengthy introduction post as scum when he starts the game, and as town he's so far just immediately jumped in and started posting actual content. Now in a current game he immediately makes a lengthy introduction post. Could he have done it as town to make himself harder to read? Possibly. But I'd still take into account that maybe the meta is repeating itself, no? And if you read my posts, it's not just that about Blazinghand, but more like how he was so excited about the RNG when he's several times before said that it's pro-town. It would be harder to convey that excitement as scum when he think it's so pro-town clearly. I'm not down to lynch Vivax; I think he's been very town by laying out his reads and thought process openly. I don't think Onegu or Hopeless are particularly town but they haven't done anything terrible. I would lynch them but I think there are better options. rayn claims that he can read Hopeless so I can trust in that for a bit until I get a better idea. I'm not sure but it sound to me that he is really trying to figure out the game. His explanation sounds genuine in here. I mean, I can get behind his logic, although I don't agree with it. Who would be a better lynch other than Xatalos, then? I really don't see better lynches than the ones I proposed
I don't see how that post is town at all. I think it would be very easy to make an analogy like that as mafia because you don't have to talk about people in the game; he can genuinely believe that his analogy is true as mafia because it's a general statement. It just seems like a weird post to pick out as town to me.
Xatalos would be good. BH/Onegu/Slam/ritoky would be the people I would look at next for not doing anything I think is particularly town (Hopeless would be too if not for rayn/yamato saying he's town). ritoky's read on BH doesn't make any sense but the way he's gone about it makes me think that he might actually believe he has a good read on BH. So maybe not him as much. Maybe you on there too. Not sure, I like Xatalos much better than others right now.
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So I assume no one agrees with me on Xatalos then?
On October 23 2015 21:59 Xatalos wrote:
Ah, and Chromatically... Not sure yet. He's kept being pretty reasonable / constructive all game, but I don't really think there's been much (if anything?) I've agreed with him on... And that case against me is just, pretty much describing my town meta features as scummy points. The stuff he's saying about me is null at worst. And then I'm confidently scum? I've received a couple of cases like that (from scum) before. Most notably the case that called me a "drama queen" or something (LOL). That was a funny case. Anyways, it feels kind of like those cases, nitpicking null/towny things and painting them in the worst possible light. It doesn't even feel like an actual case, more like an effort to try and find *somethjng* (anything) bad about me... And failing, but calling me scum regardless.
Here are the basic points I made: Xatalos was active without posting anything particularly in the beginning of the game (mafia do this because they want to appear active but have trouble posting content), waffling on votes (mafia do this because they want to keep their options open and not ignore their partners), throwing suspicion on rayn initially (mafia do this to make people look worse than they are), weird read on BH (mafia throw out townreads without thinking about why). The last two points are meh, but the first two I think are pretty clearly scum traits and certainly not "null at worst" from any perspective. The filter length defense is the only good one I've heard, but filter length is not everything.
If people really don't want to lynch Xatalos, I'll obviously consolidate onto someone else. But I do think I made a strong case and I feel good about it.
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On October 23 2015 23:17 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2015 23:10 Chromatically wrote:So I assume no one agrees with me on Xatalos then? On October 23 2015 21:59 Xatalos wrote:
Ah, and Chromatically... Not sure yet. He's kept being pretty reasonable / constructive all game, but I don't really think there's been much (if anything?) I've agreed with him on... And that case against me is just, pretty much describing my town meta features as scummy points. The stuff he's saying about me is null at worst. And then I'm confidently scum? I've received a couple of cases like that (from scum) before. Most notably the case that called me a "drama queen" or something (LOL). That was a funny case. Anyways, it feels kind of like those cases, nitpicking null/towny things and painting them in the worst possible light. It doesn't even feel like an actual case, more like an effort to try and find *somethjng* (anything) bad about me... And failing, but calling me scum regardless. Here are the basic points I made: Xatalos was active without posting anything particularly in the beginning of the game (mafia do this because they want to appear active but have trouble posting content), waffling on votes (mafia do this because they want to keep their options open and not ignore their partners), throwing suspicion on rayn initially (mafia do this to make people look worse than they are), weird read on BH (mafia throw out townreads without thinking about why). The last two points are meh, but the first two I think are pretty clearly scum traits and certainly not "null at worst" from any perspective. The filter length defense is the only good one I've heard, but filter length is not everything. If people really don't want to lynch Xatalos, I'll obviously consolidate onto someone else. But I do think I made a strong case and I feel good about it. I mean... Posting a lot (including filler) is my town meta. As scum, I select more carefully what I post. Waffling is something I will do as scum, but also as town, so it's not really.... a point. I think my read on BH is decent, do you disagree with it? Even rayn finally admitted it wasn't meritless (at least "from my perspective" lol). Not sure why scumhunting is scummy again. It's not like I showed suspicion towards rayn baselessly.
I made the point as just a general point not really looking at meta, but when I do look at meta I don't see a lot of filler as either alignment. Waffling I thought I saw more of as mafia than as town, as town I thought I saw a lot more confident reads on people (posting "X is probably town" etc). I didn't think that was strong enough to post though and the post was long enough already. I do disagree on BH, I think the RNG thing at the beginning was entirely not alignment indicative and there was no reason to townread him for it but that's been talked about a lot already and you could be town that just sees it differently (in a way I think is wrong), so I guess that point is fine. The rayn thing the way you said things about him was misrepresenting what he was doing to make it look worse, and I thought that it was weird to jump on him for what you did.
If not you (which is looking very unlikely), then probably GB? I'm looking at GB/Slam/BH and I'm kind of out of time right now but I can finalize that later. Onegu I got a town feeling when reading through for some reason, ritoky I kind of liked his BH thing, and Hopeless I'm willing to trust the rayn/yamato read for now.
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On October 23 2015 23:24 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2015 23:20 Xatalos wrote:On October 23 2015 23:08 marvellosity wrote:
my reasoning was that you're a bit of a pussy as mafia and it would be much easier for you just to townread me when if you are mafia you know there is a 0% chance of me ever getting lynched.
the fact you pushed me before under similar circumstances weakens that as a heuristic though
although i doubt you'd make the same mistake twice Btw can you really say I'm a pussy as scum after that game where I and Artanis bussed each other all game?  That was fun. yes, bussing each other is pussy way out because it means you don't have the balls to tunnel a townie gonna have to try meta Chrome at some point. My evening cleared up (i was gonna be afk all weekend and spring that on you guys when i finished work, but my plans fell through) Show nested quote +On October 22 2015 13:59 Chromatically wrote:
Alright yamato is off the lynch list for me. I have a hard time seeing him faking anger about getting scumread by people for this and I don't think he's just making up his reasoning there as mafia. Both of those last posts feel really town to me. Show nested quote +On October 23 2015 00:26 Chromatically wrote:
I don't really see why GB is mafia for that read rather than it just being a bad read. Show nested quote +On October 23 2015 02:47 Chromatically wrote:On October 23 2015 02:41 marvellosity wrote:
pretty hard to shake my townfeels on rayn when he comes into the thread saying he has 2 townreads and no mafiareads when at that point i had 2 townreads and no mafiareads and the 2 townreads were the same as mine. I like this post a lot, I get a strong town feeling from this. I don't like any of these posts much. I don't think the anger thing is a good reason to townread yamato. I made an unexplained punt vote on GB and it reads as a bit of a weird defence. I'm also not sure that Chrome should be getting strong townfeels from the post i made rather than others/the whole body of play. Also have this nagging feeling where Chrome described ritoky as picking up on "textbook mafia tells" and he's essentially doing the exact same thing with Xatalos. I don't like it. I understand picking up on Xata's read progression on rayn, I think it's possibly reasonable to be suspicious of that, but the rest of it I don't think I like much.
You didn't think yamato's giant angry lecture about how he plays town was townie? I think that would have been very difficult to emotionally fake as mafia. The GB thing I was posting my thoughts and hoping you would explain your read. Your post I felt was town because I thought it showed a town way of thinking about things. Maybe it's silly but that's the feel I got.
I don't think I'm being hypocritical but I don't think it matters if I am anyway. ritoky felt like he was jumping on something that he could paint as scummy. Xatalos is doing things that mafia have motivation to do. Not sure if that makes sense to anyone.
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I think rayn is very town. I've agreed with almost everything he's said and he is acting very town to me. Maybe I'm just hardcore mafia-siding but I don't think I am right now. So I'm not voting rayn.
I still think Xatalos is a good lynch but I've said enough about that already.
I actually really want to lynch BH too. He's just talked about RNG a lot, then questioned gumshoe which didn't go anywhere and threw out some townreads on ritoky and me. None of it would be difficult to do as mafia and it does a very good job of blending in. Check out his questioning on gumshoe which ends up going nowhere, and his read on ritoky which he posts about several times. So I would lynch BH if people were down to do that.
Slam I don't really know, he makes me a little uncomfortable. GB I could see his actions from both town and mafia so I'm pretty null there. I would vote Slam about GB.
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On October 24 2015 03:08 marvellosity wrote:Meta point on Chromatically: In Detention (town) he didn't give a single townread on day 1 In Order Mafia (mafia) he did Show nested quote +On June 11 2014 07:44 Chromatically wrote:
I think round is town btw. I like how he's clearly not editing how he posts to seem more "townie" (something scum are focused on). I also like that he didn't even know who was pushing on him when I asked him about it. Scum would be more likely to notice that they're under pressure and be worried about it, because their goal is to not get lynched. In this game he has given town reads I'm looking at this because it was a couple of his posts on townreads that made me raise my eyebrows
Wait is this a real argument? Are you serious right now?
If you are town that's seriously the worst meta argument I have ever seen.
I get a scumread off of one game where I didn't post a townread on day 1? That's like the definition of nitpicking.
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On October 24 2015 03:19 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2015 03:16 Chromatically wrote:On October 24 2015 03:08 marvellosity wrote:Meta point on Chromatically: In Detention (town) he didn't give a single townread on day 1 In Order Mafia (mafia) he did On June 11 2014 07:44 Chromatically wrote:
I think round is town btw. I like how he's clearly not editing how he posts to seem more "townie" (something scum are focused on). I also like that he didn't even know who was pushing on him when I asked him about it. Scum would be more likely to notice that they're under pressure and be worried about it, because their goal is to not get lynched. In this game he has given town reads I'm looking at this because it was a couple of his posts on townreads that made me raise my eyebrows Wait is this a real argument? Are you serious right now? If you are town that's seriously the worst meta argument I have ever seen. I get a scumread off of one game where I didn't post a townread on day 1? That's like the definition of nitpicking. no, rayn told me meta made you look town and I've gone and looked and I disagree. can you tell me qualities you think you're displaying this game that you didn't in your mafiagame?
Your only point on my meta is that I didn't give townreads on D1 in one town game while I did in one mafia game. That's what you're basing your disagreement with the meta on. There's a billion other things you could have looked at and you picked the one that happened to match me up with my mafia game. That's my problem with this post.
Like you could have looked at the way I gave townreads, or looked at other games (like the one game where I hard defended a lynch candidate all D1), but you picked one small thing like that and made it the basis of your read.
I think I'm showing a town thought process and evolving my reads to the thread, which I have a hard time doing as mafia. Shouldn't that be something that you look for in my games though? What's the point of asking me what I think?
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marv. Do you think you have reasonable evidence that I make townreads as mafia and not as town? Do you think the case you've made for that is good enough?
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On October 24 2015 03:36 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2015 03:35 Chromatically wrote:
marv. Do you think you have reasonable evidence that I make townreads as mafia and not as town? Do you think the case you've made for that is good enough? what's that got to do with anything? it's not why i scumread you it's an observation
So it had nothing to do with your read on me? Why would you post it then? You did use it as a point towards me being mafia.
It got a reaction from me because a) it's completely untrue and b) it's such a nitpicky thing to bring up. You pointed out one game as town I played and used it as the basis to say that I don't make townreads as mafia, which is a clearly unsupported statement that you then used as a point against me.
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On October 24 2015 03:41 Blazinghand wrote:... Show nested quote +On October 23 2015 23:10 Chromatically wrote:So I assume no one agrees with me on Xatalos then? On October 23 2015 21:59 Xatalos wrote:
Ah, and Chromatically... Not sure yet. He's kept being pretty reasonable / constructive all game, but I don't really think there's been much (if anything?) I've agreed with him on... And that case against me is just, pretty much describing my town meta features as scummy points. The stuff he's saying about me is null at worst. And then I'm confidently scum? I've received a couple of cases like that (from scum) before. Most notably the case that called me a "drama queen" or something (LOL). That was a funny case. Anyways, it feels kind of like those cases, nitpicking null/towny things and painting them in the worst possible light. It doesn't even feel like an actual case, more like an effort to try and find *somethjng* (anything) bad about me... And failing, but calling me scum regardless. Here are the basic points I made: Xatalos was active without posting anything particularly in the beginning of the game (mafia do this because they want to appear active but have trouble posting content), waffling on votes (mafia do this because they want to keep their options open and not ignore their partners), throwing suspicion on rayn initially (mafia do this to make people look worse than they are), weird read on BH (mafia throw out townreads without thinking about why). The last two points are meh, but the first two I think are pretty clearly scum traits and certainly not "null at worst" from any perspective. The filter length defense is the only good one I've heard, but filter length is not everything. If people really don't want to lynch Xatalos, I'll obviously consolidate onto someone else. But I do think I made a strong case and I feel good about it. Uh, isn't that consistent with Xat buying into RNG, townreading me, and pushing the RNG target? The actions you've described are like, the actions of someone who has joined the glory of RNG so unless you're saying "buying into RNG is scummy" I dont' think you've got a case here buddy ...
Are you trying to say that Xatalos' read on rayn is based on him following RNG?
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The ritoky picture thing was a joke. I assumed that was obvious.
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##Unvote
##Vote: Alakaslam
I think I've been clearly posting my thoughts in the thread and that you should be able to see my thought process behind how my reads have formed or changed.
I'm okay with Slam being lynched. I think BH or Xatalos would probably be better but I'm doubting myself on Xatalos now too so I don't really know.
I'm probably overreacting to marv because no one else seems to think it's weird.
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On October 24 2015 03:54 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2015 03:43 Chromatically wrote:On October 24 2015 03:36 marvellosity wrote:On October 24 2015 03:35 Chromatically wrote:
marv. Do you think you have reasonable evidence that I make townreads as mafia and not as town? Do you think the case you've made for that is good enough? what's that got to do with anything? it's not why i scumread you it's an observation So it had nothing to do with your read on me? Why would you post it then? You did use it as a point towards me being mafia. It got a reaction from me because a) it's completely untrue and b) it's such a nitpicky thing to bring up. You pointed out one game as town I played and used it as the basis to say that I don't make townreads as mafia, which is a clearly unsupported statement that you then used as a point against me. in Detention as town you didn't make a townread in Order as mafia you did it's not totally untrue. look for yourself.
Yes, I'll take your word for it that those statements are true. Then, in your post, you used those games to imply that I don't give townreads as town, which is a clearly untrue statement you made based on very flimsy evidence. There's no point splitting hairs over this, you should know what I meant.
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On July 15 2013 05:31 Chromatically wrote:I have to rewrite this because my computer crashed, so I'm just going to c/p the parts that hz wrote (without the quotes from Super). Original case is here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=420227¤tpage=28#549The Super CaseShow nested quote +
Super introduces himself as a player who understands that people cannot always respond to posts quickly and as a player who thinks that applying pressure on other players is a good thing. His later posts do not exhibit these traits at all.
Before even starting to scum-hunt, Super is concerned with self-preservation. He is not even interested in getting good conversation flowing to produce information. Self-preservation comes first.
This isn't scummy. I've already talked about this at length, but everyone's first priority is to stay alive. If there was suspicion on me, my first priority is to remove it.Ask yourself: what would you do if you walked into the thread and there was a case on you? You'd defend yourself. Show nested quote +
One of the first things that Super says comes to his mind is that Cloud has not posted yet. Why is this the next thing that Super thinks of, after self-preservation? He later gives a reason but I cannot understand how he arrived at that train of thought.
? His reason makes sense. He didn't have time to do anything more than skim, so he called out someone he thought was lurking. Not particularly townie, but not at all scummy. Show nested quote +
Next Super says that he has not yet scum-hunted, but so far I was his biggest scum read. That would be fine if his reads were fluid after he actually did some scum-hunting. As we will see later though, his read on me persists until I really hammer home the point that there is no good town motivation for his read on me.
This isn't scummy. Bad reads =/= scum, bad townies make bad reads all of the time. You say there's no town motivation, but there's really no scum motivation. Scum know that they won't get a mislynch on you, so they have no reason to scumread you. Show nested quote +
Also, why is he so worried that posting this early read might push him to being lynched? I think that it is because he already knows that he cannot actually justify his read on me.
I didn't really understand what he was saying in that sentence. Show nested quote +
Next, Super calls me a lurker but says that the other Europeans should be excused for not posting much. I had already made several posts at this point and am a European myself.
This isn't scummy. This is bad reasoning. Bad reasoning often comes from bad town. If anything, this is overzealous scumhunting. Show nested quote +
He says that he wants to see more from me, but does not give any indication of what he wants to see. When I later make posts directed towards him he completely ignores then as though they are invisible. If he had a scum read on me and wanted to see more, why does he not reply to my posts?
This, once again, isn't scummy. If I say that I want a scumread to post more, that does NOT mean that I'm planning on replying to them. All it means is that I want them to post their reads and reasoning more often. I'm probably NOT going to reply to them, most of the time, unless I have something in particular to say. I cannot understand why you think this is bad. Show nested quote +
Next Super says that he still thinks I am scum. His reasons are that I have not posted anything which contributed to finding scum. I may be biased on this point, but I do not see how a town Super could say that I had not been contributing. Note that I stopped playing at around 2 AM my time last night, but Super seems to think that it was scummy of me to stop posting. Why would a town player think that?
Once again, bad logic =/= scum. Show nested quote +
Now, Super is still more concerned with self-preservation that with finding scum. He also gently suggests that we should consider a no lynch. If a town player was under pressure at this point they would push a scum-read as hard as they could, but they would not try for a no lynch. Super switches his primary scum read from me to Xzavier, without ever saying why I suddenly became less scummy or Xzavier became more scummy (as Xzavier has not posted in a long time). This is still self-preservation without pushing a scum target with any significant force.
Why would a scum player say that they were just giving reads in self defense? I'll admit that this is a decent point though. So almost all of hz's case is stuff that isn't scummy. When I look at Super's filter, I see someone who's at least trying to find scum and share their reads freely. This is way more than you can say for Kirby.
On July 13 2013 14:04 Chromatically wrote:
Yes, we'll technically never be able to totally disprove the possibility that Stim is town. It's just far less likely. Look at what Stim has done.
Lie about his anger
Town motivation: none
Scum motivation: screwed up the explanation because the anger was faked in the first place
Martyr
Town motivation: none, far more likely that he just explains
Scum motivation: knows he can't explain, so he acts emotional to get people to switch
Day 1 from Newbie XLIV, my second most recent town game.
Accidentally posted it in that game so whoops.
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I'll only be able to be on my phone a little from now until lynch. rayn is a bad lynch. Slam is okay.
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EPT
