EPT[M][N] Mini Mafia: The (kinda) Vanilla Experience - Page 14
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Chromatically
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On October 31 2015 03:32 Blazinghand wrote: Why WOULDN'T you 100% bus Onegu? And when push came to shove didn't vote him until he was the only other wagon? Even when you threw away your vote D2, you threw it away on rayn, not on Onegu. You talk a big talk about lynching Onegu but... well, you never voted him, and never tried to REALLY get things going on him, until he was literally the only other wagon. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/497022-mini-mafia-the-vanilla-experience-voting-thread?user=glowingbear where are your Onegu votes, if you've been on him? It's a nice attempt at a bus I guess Exactly this. There's no actual attempt at getting Onegu lynched or pushing him until you have no choice but to vote him. | ||
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On October 31 2015 03:33 GlowingBear wrote: "Let's lynch slam!" "I can read him better later, it's better to lynch Onegu" "No let's lynch yamato then!" "Him also. I'll vote him but seriously, I prefer lynching Onegu". When I could just "Oh yeah, slam play makes no sense, let's lynch him Gg" Yes, you saying Onegu should be lynched is never going to get anyone else to vote on him and so isn't actually going to get him lynched at all. As mafia, you'd actually want to do exactly what you did: say that he looks scummy (so you can argue this when he flips) but not actually push to get him lynched. | ||
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Stick to the plan and lynch GlowingBear and Hopeless. Some of the reasons for GB I quoted in this post HERE, so seriously go look at all those quotes if you haven't. Here's what I've said about the association between GB-Onegu: On October 31 2015 01:45 Chromatically wrote: This doesn't even have anything to do with what I said! THERE IS NO LOGIC TO GB FLIPPING HIS READS LIKE THIS OUT OF NOWHERE. GB has not been bussing Onegu. He's been throwing suspicion on Onegu and saying he's mafia, but never once has he pushed Onegu to be lynched with any kind of force. He votes yamato over Onegu D2 without pushing Onegu and then switches to rayn? If you were mafia and your team was Onegu/Hopeless, would you really not throw suspicion on them? Here's the kind of stuff he's been saying: There is absolutely nothing in here that makes a GB-Onegu team unlikely at all. I would argue that the suspicion without pushing it at all makes it more likely. On October 30 2015 11:09 Chromatically wrote: Here's every read Onegu gave on GB: + Show Spoiler + On October 25 2015 09:42 Onegu wrote: Ill read the GB case in a bit. He has been really null for me. On October 26 2015 23:44 Onegu wrote: No I never said he was lying. He never said he was working. I point it out because sometimes I dont know if he is working or not. I do not know his work schedule. My point was out of the 2 wagons I would lynch yamato over GB because of activity. And normally that doesnt work for yamato you cannot make a read off of him because of activity because he is working. But this game I know he wasnt working. This doesnt mean yamato is my preferred lynch, he looked really townie day 1. On October 26 2015 23:57 Onegu wrote: No I am not calling him mafia rayn. I am null on him. I am null on GB. They are the 2 current wagons. I gave my thoughts on the wagons. I said if I had to choose from the wagons I would vote Yamato. On October 27 2015 00:21 Onegu wrote: Becuase it effects my read on him. That is why I would lynch him over GB. But I am waiting for you to tell me why GB is scum. On October 30 2015 01:32 Onegu wrote: The main reason is because I am scum reading you two more. GB needs looked at also, but I feel multiple people scum read GB maybe he shoots rayn, but only rayn and myself were scum reading you. Rayn had the clout that I dont to actually lynch you. And here's most of what he says about Hopeless (I omitted a bunch of "lynch hopeless" posts): + Show Spoiler + On October 24 2015 02:55 Onegu wrote: ... Hopeless said he was going to lynch me for being useless I told him good luck, he didnt bite at the bait. Not looking good. IE rels in rayns game. ... On October 25 2015 05:48 Onegu wrote: ... Could also lynch hopeless here. Like I baited him and he did nothing about it and just went after easy lynches even after threatening me. His reads seem to just go along with thread sentiment. ... On October 26 2015 14:27 Onegu wrote: Ok I take back my read on Gumshoe. He looks really townie now. I think I like a hopeless lynch at this point. He is just lurking which is with the way the thread was and has been imploding I cant shake the feeling there is at least 1 scum in the lurkers if not 2 or even 3. Plus I did a test for him and he failed it hard. He said he would vote me if I did nothing and I basically told him I look forward to it and he did nothing about it. There are a few other things like his votes and reasons. I will go more into it tomorrow. Ritoky could also easily be mafia as a lurker, plus his thing following his towniest read and that read was BH. Ill get into more details tomorrow. But for now. ##Vote: Hopeless On October 30 2015 01:48 Onegu wrote: That vote from hopeless on Xata is so fucking random, If he is going to be around why use a placeholder and why Xata. Then he drops a vote on GB... Why does this give me the heebie jeebies that this is two town wagons... Can we please vote hopeless? ##Vote: Hopeless So my initial reaction to this is that Onegu never giving a read at all on GB looks really really bad. I don't think this says much about Hopeless at all, it could be Onegu pushing an easy target or it could be him putting pressure on his scumbuddy that's not playing (and wasn't really up for lynch any of those days). IF GB is somehow town, then the team is almost certainly Hopeless + Vivax, just from the votes. Logic here: On October 31 2015 01:36 Chromatically wrote: Guys, think about this: IF GB is town: The mafia are three out of {me, Vivax, Hopeless}. No question. If you believe otherwise (that at least one mafia was bussing), then you have to find a person on the Onegu wagon that couldn't have switched to secure the GB lynch. gumshoe wrote a justification for voting GB, he could have kept his vote there. BH was posting a lot about being worried about the lynch, he could have easily switched at the last second and people would be like "Oh BH, you silly goose! You and your shenannies!" ritoky switched for basically no reason and hammered scum, he 100% could have just kept his vote on GB with perfect justification. Xatalos was saying that he might be okay with lynching GB earlier in the day and he's been scumreading GB too, he could have switched. The mafia team is EITHER GB + someone else OR {me/Vivax/Hopeless}. To believe otherwise, you have to think that scum willingly avoided, for basically no reason, lynching a town and saving Onegu, which would have put us into 4-3 LYLO. | ||
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On October 31 2015 03:43 GlowingBear wrote: Repeatedly saying you want to lynch Onegu is me not actually wanting to lynch Onegu. How do you think I should've pushed Onegu, then? Like my push on Vivax? It surely worked wonders, didn't it? No, probably something more like the pushes you make in your town games. Here's an example: On July 27 2015 03:46 GlowingBear wrote: .:Case on KelsierSC:. 1) Constantly whining about having to waste posts with bad things without actually using his remaining 50+ posts for anything else + Show Spoiler + /*really long nested quote omitted*/ If he is so worried about wasting posts with useless stuff, WHY DOES HE WASTE POSTS TO KEEP SAYING HE IS ANNOYED? "Yes, one person is enough to annoy me", really? Why is he so annoyed, man? "Everybody is playing like shit". No, nobody is playing like shit in this game. This game is pretty concise and to the point. His annoyance is unjustified, it's ridiculous. Looks like mafia trying to fake being emotional. 2) Deflecting any early suspicions brought on him + guilty conscience THIS IS HIS SECOND POST IN THE GAME! This is an unnatural reaction to what scott posted. In town mindset, the reaction I would expect would be "then you're stupid because I'm town" and not "ok, you think I'm scum, am I the only one lol". It reveals mafia's guilty conscience. More than that, and more important, it is a deflection of early pressure. He sees someone calling him scum and softly tries to shift pressure to someone else. If you ask "am I the only one?" a common response would be "no, I didn't like X as well" and if they keep talking about X, the pressure is shifted. The same reaction can be seen here: + Show Spoiler + On July 25 2015 19:54 KelsierSC wrote: This isn't going to lead to anything productive so I think it's best to just end it here. It can be interpreted in both ways: town not wanting to shit the thread, or scum deflecting pressure. Since Kelsier already displayed the deflection behaviour, the second option is more likely. 3) Wanting to lynch me then backtracking when having no reasons to + Show Spoiler + */ even longer nested quote */ The progression is this, for people that doesn't want to read the posts: Kelsier says he doesn't like me and he would lynch me happily. I ask him why he doesn't like me. He says everything I post looks stupid. I asked him what is stupid in them and why does that makes me mafia. He said it doesn't make me mafia but he would lynch me anyway, and that he is annoyed because idiots (like me) are annoying him, but never says what are the problems with my posts. He then comes to the thread and says he wants to lynch "hopeless, clarity, obi and bf", not wanting to lynch me. It's simple: he said he didn't like me hoping to have me as an option for mislynch. When I confront it, he says I look stupid but he forgets it's something he doesn't believe is alignment indicative for me. Then he says he would lynch me anyway implying that I annoy him. Well, I wasn't raising suspicions on him since that time. Now I've being pressuring him for the rest of day1 and he doesn't want to lynch me anymore LOL. He is not annoyed with it. What I mean with this is: his actions does not follows his discourse, which is mostly a scum trait. Add to this the fact that he answers almost NOTHING of my posts directed to him. He just deflects them, adding to point (2) of this case. 4) HE IS VOTING TOFU INSTEAD OF SCOTT HE IS FUCKING VOTING TOFU INSTEAD OF SCOTT. SCOTT WAS THE FIRST GUY TO ANNOY HIM (AND KELSIER WOULD LYNCH PEOPLE DOING THAT)! Why he doesn't prefer a scott lynch? Hell, a lot of people thinks he is mafia! Instead of going against the guy that certainly looked as mafia for him, he is going against questionmark!Tofu. More than that, he wasn't advocating for a lynch on Scott, but opened a range of possible lynches he would go against (tofu, scott, obi, clarity). IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE, PEOPLE! COME ON!!! + Show Spoiler [WIFOM] + Points on Kelsier were brought many times and no one quickly jumped on it, not even Scott, who was suspicions on Kelsier in the first place. The quick and unreasonable town reads Kelsier got points out that scum didn't want him as a possible mislynch. I am POSITIVE Kelsier is mafia. Vote him with me. ##Vote: KelsierSC | ||
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On October 31 2015 04:05 gumshoe wrote: Hey chrom, this ones directed at you, remember when you asked Onegu a question and vivax swooped in? this felt super scummy too me on multiple levels. 1: If hes scum with Onegu, maybe hes trying to stop him from saying something stupid seeing as hes probally dead today anyways? 2: Hes trying to crumb more on you, as he has been all game, and kinda on bh as well. 3: rehashing info is a great way for scum to look like they are contributing. just gave me chills at the time / : I don't think that post was particularly scummy. If he wants to stop Onegu from saying something he would just say in the scum qt. I didn't really think he was using it to push me either. | ||
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On October 31 2015 04:12 Xatalos wrote: I'll really feel bad for Chromatically if GB is town  see you already know what it's like when your 97% scum read flips town  | ||
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I still think Vivax is town but it's possible he's not by poe, there's just a few things I don't like about him So my plan is lynch GB and Hopeless if GB is somehow town then lynch Hopeless and Vivax probably because of D3 votes if Hopeless is somehow town then reevaluate everyone hard but probably still lynch GB and Vivax GB is 200% scummier than Vivax | ||
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also I'm totally okay with either GB or Hopeless, slight preference for GB but I don't think there's any real reason for that other than "information" and he's more likely to wiggle out of it later | ||
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From GB's perspective though, Hopeless should be like 100% mafia because he randomly came into the thread and voted on the town wagon instead of mafia, so that doesn't make any sense. | ||
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On November 01 2015 01:02 Hopeless1der wrote: ##vote: GlowingBear | ||
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I'm fine lynching Hopeless today though, that's probably the "correct" move given that he probably literally isn't going to post today now that he's voted. I do agree with Vivax's desire to see whether the wagons were M-T or T-T, but in either case we should lynch Hopeless so I don't think it actually matters that much. GB just has to be lynched tomorrow. | ||
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On November 01 2015 02:51 gumshoe wrote: I've disagreed with almost all those reasons : P gb just doesn't strike me as the guy I've been playing against. Hes put too much effort into a game that could be easily as seen as lost from the get go. I just dont get how he thought he could win day 1 with a team of hopeless and onegu by playing such an agro style / : like, when I look at gb, I see someone who is just begging to be lynched constantly with his play(coming out with a case against me of all things yesterday -_-) but if your right about his team, hes not bieng an lightning rod for anyone, onegu and hopeless get lynched no matter what, so who is he tanking for? Whats more he IS playing the game, I think your a bit biased by his meta, from a totally neutral standpoint hes been very active and engaging, usually answering all questions directed at him. I just dont see it man, hes playing as if the game isn't lost , especially his big anti me post yesterday, why put in all that stupid effort just to flip and basically prove it all to be bullshit Hes making a post that will make absolutely no difference if he flips scum, so clearly he must think hes going to survive right? But if your right, his own two teamates were bussing him, and they never stopped bussing him 0_0 So gb puts a ton of effort into a case that wont make even make a ripple let alone a wave if he flips scum, on the off chance that town would save him while his own mates were bussing? I just dont buy it, I would expect something like Onegu's pity post any day, but not a whole frikin case that only matters on the off chance that I live when my own team has given up on me -_-. Meanwhile, we have onegu pleading, screaming wifom, and hopeless bending backwards to justify why his null read is his scum read and his should be scum read is a null read. and of course dont forgot Vivax's last second attempt to sway xata -_- Too much effort was put in by all our suspects for a lynch that supposedly didn't fucking matter 0_0 its just not consistent chrom, I checked vivax's games, hes fully capable of playing an active scum game like this / : you should check him out for yourself. I mean... effort does not equal town. For example. I put a lot of effort in regardless of my alignment. I agree that it would have been pretty demoralizing to play the game through with Onegu and Hopeless as your mafia partners (assuming that that's the world), but clearly the mafia IS playing the game and hasn't given up. GB fits that description just as well as Vivax or anyone else. Maybe you could characterize GB as having an "aggro style". but going after people and arguing with them is something that mafia can do and have to do. If you don't do anything in the thread, then you'll obviously get lynched. I can talk specifically with his post about you he made. Why is he more likely to put effort in there as town or as mafia? As mafia, he wants to seem like he's town by pushing to survive, and making posts like that is one of the ways he can seem town. In addition, he probably thinks that he can carry the game better than Onegu can, so he legitimately wants Onegu lynched over him. Putting "effort" in when you're about to be lynched is not a town tell; I would have put in a lot of effort in that position as mafia too. You said that I'm "biased" by his meta, but you don't explain why it's bias. The meta is a very legitimate point against GB. You're similarly using meta as a point against Vivax, but I found his meta pretty inconclusive for me. I did check it out for myself and made a post about it a while ago. He could be playing like this as mafia, but his meta doesn't show that he's more likely to be mafia. With GB, the meta does. | ||
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On November 01 2015 05:45 gumshoe wrote: For the bias aspect, I checked out gbs games, you only mentioned 6 of them but hes played at close to 30 -_- I checked the games where hes about to get lynched, when hes scum its more like "wow you guys are so bad for voting me" its all about protecting himself, but yesterday he was pretty much resigned to dying, and was more concerned with pushing a scum read before he died. Which is more in line with his town games I've found. Also your argument he was trying to convince town with effort is kinda bull, his own teamers were totally bussing him, it was as grim a situation as it gets, scum gb would spend his last moments yelling at town for thier incompetence, not trying to "solve" the game / : also out of the 7 scum games he played, only one of them has had as much activity as hes shown this game / : his push vs me was all caps and hyperbole. his filter is higher than his scum average his "last moments" are more in line with town gb all in all, his meta seems more in his favour than anything else / : but maybe thats just mah bias. I'll take your main points one by one here. "Only once had this much activity as mafia before" and "filter is higher than the scum average" That's because there's only two games where he gets to the end of D3 as mafia. Same with the point about scum filter average, you're not taking into account game length. Here are the stats from the 5 most recent town games where he gets to end of D3, and the only 2 mafia games where he does: Pages of filter at the end of D3: Town: 10 pgs -Student 27 pgs -Himalayas 11 pgs -Assassination 12 pgs -Down Under 8 pgs -Hammertime Average: 13.6 pgs Mafia: 9 pgs -GoT 11 pgs -LXVIII Average: 10 pgs I'll concede that the activity isn't a point for him to be lynched anymore (the difference isn't large enough and not enough mafia games), but it's not a point in his favor either like you say it is. "Last moments are more in line with town GB" First of all-- of course his teammates would be bussing him, the lynch was between two mafia (assuming GB was mafia); there was no choice! If GB spends his last moments yelling at town, maybe he gets lynched there. Instead, he wants to look as townie as possible, which means posting things relevant to scumhunting. More importantly, I think you've seriously mischaracterized GB's meta. You say that he does the "you guys are bad" thing more often as mafia, but I see him do it as town too (although he does do it as mafia too, so I would say it's not alignment-indicative for him). In fact, as mafia, he pushes scumreads just like you say he wouldn't. Examples (I took one quote from each of the three most recent games where he was lynched as each alignment): Town where he calls the town bad: On June 25 2015 11:53 GlowingBear wrote: townies that mislynched me, know that I will send PM's to you each day, for 365 days after endgame, reminding you how bad you are. Mark my words. The North remembers. On February 01 2015 11:21 GlowingBear wrote: UNVOTE RIGHT NOW YOU STUPID THIS IS LYLO AND YOU'RE THROWING THE GAME OUT On November 29 2014 07:20 GlowingBear wrote: Mislynch damdred then. Or me. I don't fucking care anymore. Mafia where he posts scumreads as he's about to be lynched: On July 07 2015 06:11 GlowingBear wrote: This is the dumbest shit you have said all game If the guy is a tracker he is obviously thinking about who might be delivering kp. This is such a poor argument that it can't be coming from town wave. I refuse to believe you can be this bad as town. This is Himalaya all over. Cixah, Wave, Bill Murray In case I really get lynched, this is the scum team. Go against them when I flip, ESPECIALLY Cixah On April 21 2015 05:33 GlowingBear wrote: Fuck this I want to lynch SL first If impossible, I want to lynch HF If impossible, I'll lynch Koshi I will lynch no one else. I'm pretty certain this is the scum team + Koshi is intentionally trying to piss WoS off, reinforcing the argument that Koshi is mafia with them. On April 12 2015 09:10 GlowingBear wrote: Lol thank you, SL. You just showed that palmar listed obi as possible Mafia, never updated this read, but bashes me for voting him. PEOPLE PALMAR AND OBI ARE MAFIA TOGETHER CONSOLIDATE ON PALMAR WITH ME In particular, I think the first mafia post I quoted here is strikingly similar to what he did this game, where he calls out a team and tells the town to go after them if he flips (despite the fact that he is mafia). My point is that mafia GB is perfectly capable of posting scumreads before he flips, as shown here, and that calling the town/people voting him bad is not a mafia-tell for GB (meaning that the fact that he didn't do it this game is irrelevant). "His push vs me was all caps and hyperbole" I don't think allcaps and hyperbole is indicative of town GB at all. GB does the allcaps yelling thing as both alignments. Here's some examples from both alignments, taken from those same games right before he was about to be lynched: Town: On June 25 2015 05:14 GlowingBear wrote: WE ARE LYNCHING HOLYFLARE VOTE HIM RIGHT NOW. On January 31 2015 01:33 GlowingBear wrote: Dude those were TWO QUOTES. TWO QUOTES. SHOW ME ANY EFFORT YOU'VE PUT INTO BRINGING ATTENTION TO YOUR LATE CASE ON ME. PALMAR SAYS WHARRGARBL LYNCH TOAD WHAT DO YOU DO? KEEP SILENT. YOU DON'T SAY "HEY LOOK AT MY CASE AND GIVE THOUGHTS" ARGH On November 29 2014 06:38 GlowingBear wrote: FOR CHRIST SAKE MARV, WHY WOULD I, AS SCUM, GO AGAINST ONE OF THE MOST AGGRESSIVE AND PERSUASIVE PLAYERS ON THE THREAD? WHY WOULD I TAKE THIS STANCE IF I KNEW DAMDRED WAS GOING TO DIE INSTEAD OF ME? THAT'S EXACTLY THE POSITION SUPERBIA IS IN. HE IS NOT GETTING LYNCHED, THEREFORE, FUCK HIS SCUNREAD, HE'LL JUST STAND BY AND SEE THE GUY I CALLED OUT BEING LYNCHED. Mafia: On July 07 2015 09:43 GlowingBear wrote: I KEEP TELLING YOU "I KNOW CIXAH IS MAFIA, I KNOW CIXAH IS MAFIA" AND YOU CAN'T FUCKING GET ME? GODDAMMIT On April 21 2015 07:38 GlowingBear wrote: EVERYTIME I CAN GET MY PHONE TO CHECK THE THREAD THERE IS HF POSTING THIS STUPID "AFK GB AGAIN LOLOLOL MAFIA" AAAAAARGH YOU COULDN'T EVEN EXPLAIN WHY BEING AFK MAKES ME MAFIA AND YOU FUCKING DIDN'T PROPERLY READ MY CASE ON SL, A CASE THAT EVEN HIIIIIIIMSEEEEEELF COULDN'T CLEAR HIS THOUGHT PROCESS WTF AAAAAAAAAAARGH HOW CAN YOU PEOPLE NOT SEE IT?????????????? On April 21 2015 07:50 GlowingBear wrote: IT MAKES NO SENSE TO ACTIVELY VOTE FOR LYNCHING A TOWN READ THAN BACK OFF CONVINIENTLY AT EOD WHEN KOSHI DIDN'T MAKE SHIT FOR YOU TO FLIP LIKE THAT AND FORM A WAGON ON A TOWNIE UNLESS YOU'RE FUCKING MAFIA WITH KOSHI On April 12 2015 11:42 GlowingBear wrote: HAHAHAHA OBI YOU'RE SO FUCKING MAFIA On April 12 2015 12:36 GlowingBear wrote: DAMDY PLEASE LISTEN I AM TOWN HERE, YOU'RE TUNNELED, PLEASE READ MY ARGUMENTS AGAINST OBI AND VOTE HIM Pushing people with allcaps and hyperbole before he's about to be lynched is definitely not a town tell for GB. Reading the filters, I felt like his pushes as mafia were more similar to his push this game (like the last mafia one quoted here), but you can see if you agree with that for yourself. | ||
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/487093-mafia-in-the-himalayas?user=GlowingBear http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/475954-hammertime-mafia?user=GlowingBear http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/471815-russia-today-mini-mafia?user=GlowingBear (town) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/487695-ot-vs-the-mods-mafia?user=GlowingBear http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/482863-game-of-thrones-mini-mafia?user=GlowingBear http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/480965-mafia-mini-mafia2-another-miniature-game-of-mafia?user=GlowingBear (mafia) And to add on, this is all just talking about meta. We haven't even talked about the other points at all, like: - read on Vivax where the reasons always change but his read stays the same - calls rayn town and then mafia for the same reasons without any sign of reevaluation (says he switched because he was worried about OMGUSing?) - ritoky's read about how he expected GB to play - Onegu never gives a read on GB other than null - doesn't go after Vivax/Hopeless (his scumreads from all game) when he should know the wagons were town-mafia on D3 - marv, rayn, Xatalos (confirmed town, strong players that were night killed) all thought that GB was mafia | ||
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