TL Mafia LXXII: Gaiden 2

Yes, the section of my post marked "Pointless Fluff" is entirely necessary. You must read it.



I've been listening to this song a lot over the past few days. I like it a lot.



This one too. They're good songs, listen to them. It'll improve your scumhunting.

Anyway, I'm kind of sad that I'm mostly able to play when most people are sleeping. How boring. So I'll just make a fancy list post.

I don't have a very good record of reading Palmar in the past. But I'm still pretty confident that Palmar is town here for the way he's been driven and focused. He's provided insightful comments and I like his push on justanothertownie. His tone also feels relaxed. I know this doesn't make him town, as he is capable of having a relaxed tone as mafia, but in this game his tone is most natural when he's giving reads on (arguably) harder-to-read players, which feels much harder to fake than normal relaxed tone.

Marvellosity is definitely capable of tricking me, but I feel he's likely town here. If he isn't, it should be more clear in a few days, anyway.

Marvellosity feels more driven here than as mafia in Assassination Mafia, where he played well enough to avoid being lynched and have some thread presence, but was not above suspicion. Given how much he enjoys playing mafia, I wouldn't really expect him to increase his effort compared to that game.

These posts don't really make sense. Why does he want to talk about me (Trfel), when all he wants is an answer to my question? That's not something he can get while I'm not present. He seems to realize that discussing me at this time doesn't help with anything, and doesn't mention me for quite some time.

I don't find his interactions with WaveofShadow scummy.

But this post:is all wrong. The majority of WaveofShadow's posts at this point were jokes. He never called rsoultin out, and jokes can't really be seen as having a direct manner. The only things he directly committed to are finding scum and voting for marvellosity (which clearly wasn't a hard commitment, as expected). This post doesn't make much sense. I would like an explanation from MoosyDoosy (tone doesn't align with direct manner and calling out rsoultin when the posts are jokes).

Tone seems very relaxed and seems to show a town mindset.

In general, his thought process and reads match and are sensible.

The downside is that KelsierSC is quite good as mafia. He showed this in Gaiden 1.

I like his questioning to MoosyDoosy about his townread of WaveofShadow, but he drops it before reaching a real conclusion based on this.

I'm fine with this read for now, anyway.

I'm sleepy.

A lot of it's tone, and I don't feel like his reads are too constructed/clean/correct. Though this is a weak read.

I refuse to be wrong on rsoultin. I can accomplish that by not giving a read.

(Plus I'm sleepy, basically always think rsoultin is town, and don't think that rsoultin is a good lynch today even if I found a few things that made me suspicious)

First he votes for WaveofShadow, and then decides to change his vote to MoosyDoosy based on how MoosyDoosy kept talking to WaveofShadow.This isn't a convincing case at all. VisceraEyes starts out by saying that he thinks that MoosyDoosy is pocketing WaveofShadow, but this is reasonable from town, but he gets a bad feeling anyway. Then he says that he can see something that can be considered towny may be able to come from a mafia perspective. And then he says it's better than voting for someone who is AFK.

Which results in a vote on MoosyDoosy.

VisceraEyes doesn't seem convinced by his own case. And he's downplaying his earlier vote on WaveofShadow, which felt really out of place anyway.

I don't understand why he voted for WaveofShadow in the first place. The strength he places in his WaveofShadow read seems to vary a lot:

VisceraEyes transitions from voting for WaveofShadow to seemingly being surprised and not having considered that WaveofShadow could be mafia.

He generally doesn't play as mafia. He was mafia last game, didn't play, and died. This game, he said he would play, confirmed, and then hasn't posted anything yet.

Not going to repeat everything that's been mentioned about him.

But I find it very hard to get a read on him because it seems like justanothertownie is a player who is very self-confident and prides himself in always being right. Thus, when people disagree with him and push him all game, I can see him getting caught up arguing with them when it clearly isn't going anywhere, I can see him constantly insulting and throwing scum on people he later says are probably town, I can see him sort of playing like this.

In the end, I'm torn. I think that his play is objectively bad, but I'm not sure if that makes him scum here.

The biggest problem I have with him is that he simply isn't pushing his reads. Here's justanothertownie's filter with only the read progression (only including the main scum reads, excluding all of the stuff to rsoultin/Palmar due to previously mentioned reasons)

• On August 26 2015 20:11 justanothertownie wrote:
  Yeah? I would like to know what's the point of this when marv had done absolutely nothing at that point in time:
  

  Show nested quote +
  

  On August 26 2015 13:21 Trfel wrote:
  Otherwise, I'm interested to see what Palmar has to say about marvellosity.

  
  
  He goes on to explain this several more times, and say that it is the best thing mentioned in the thread.
  
• On August 27 2015 01:01 justanothertownie wrote:
  Ok, Wave is voting me because Palmar caught HIM as mafia in the past. Makes a huge post and talks about everything but me except for this statement. This might be the first mafia joining the push.
  
  
• On August 27 2015 02:18 justanothertownie wrote:
  Currently I would look for scum between WoS, Trfel, Moosy and possibly CC between the people that have posted a little.
  Why MoosyDoosy? (not throwing suspicion, actually wondering, and a note to self (that I probably will forget about) to look into this)
  
• On August 27 2015 02:23 justanothertownie wrote:
  

  Show nested quote +
  

  On August 27 2015 02:22 Palmar wrote:
  

  On August 27 2015 02:18 justanothertownie wrote:
  Well, I am leaving now. It is wednesday and wednesday night is pubquiz time. Maybe I will return for a short while later, maybe I won't. Can make any promises about tomorrows activity since it is my birthday.
  
  When I return I will flat out ignore any further bullshit brought up against me unless I think it is alignment indicative.
  
  Currently I would look for scum between WoS, Trfel, Moosy and possibly CC between the people that have posted a little.

  
  Explain exactly why you think CC is mafia.

  
  He is a little too correct I think. Very very clean posts.
  This is interesting, because this is the opposite impression I got from Mr. Cheesecake at this time. When later questioned on this, justanothertownie used an example that happened after this post was made.
  
  Between the start of the game and this post, Mr. Cheesecake said the following (abbreviated):
  + Show Spoiler +
  Rsoultin is town for tone
  MoosyDoosy is town for claiming VT
  Palmar and marvellosity are probably town
  KelsierSC is probably mafia
  Justanothertownie is probably town
  Goes back a little on his reason to townread justanothertownie
  
  I'm labeling this list very subjectively. Strikethrough reads are reads that are easy to make (meaning that they are low risk reads for mafia, in that they won't have repercussions and likely won't be questioned later, or are just obvious). Red reads are reads that justanothertownie disagreed with.
  
  Assuming that justanothertownie thinks that his own reads are correct, Mr. Cheesecake didn't actually make any reads that are significant that aligned with his own, except for saying that justanothertownie is town.
  
  I don't see how justanothertownie sees Mr. Cheesecake's posts here as being clean or accurate.

And that's all that I see.

What I don't see is an actual push. He's said the same point about me (Trfel) many times (saying it's one of the best things in the thread), and people have disagreed. But he hasn't said much about the rest of my play. He hasn't commented on a single thing I've done being towny, but he doesn't seem convinced that anything I've done outside of that one post makes me scum.

I don't see him really pushing WaveofShadow, either. He said that WaveofShadow might be the first mafia joining the push [on himself], but never said more (other than agreeing with Mr. Cheesecake's posts about him).

Justanothertownie hasn't seemed very motivated at trying to convince people or push one of his scumreads. He hasn't even voted yet.

It almost feels like he's too frustrated to lead an actual push himself, and is throwing some suspicion and waiting to vote with whatever people like. Which is a mafia-motivated mindset.

Both of these things are indicative of me being mafia. But why isn't he pushing me as mafia at this point?
Why does he mention Palmar's townread on me in this post? Does he not want to address me with his scumread? He has enough information to be actually pushing me here. It feels like he is being aggressive for the purpose of being aggressive here, not actually trying to push a scumread.

The funny thing is that despite always making more reasons to lynch me, he doesn't really push me all that much. Not when it matters. Not at all on Day 2. He's just content with lynching Mr. Cheesecake (more on this later).

Boxerfred is a policy lynch.

The only post that boxerfred makes after this (in the thread) is this one:After this post, Vivax tries to get support for lynching me.He basically says that boxerfred and Hopeless1der are random lynches, and that he doesn't want to take them.And now he says that boxerfred ninjavoting makes him mafia. This is where Vivax's scumread completely breaks down. Boxerfred's filter is here. He said that he didn't have time to play until tomorrow, voted on the biggest wagon because he got a PM that told him that he needed to vote, and that he isn't sorry. Vivax feels that this is not alignment indicative. However, why is ninja voting alignment indicative at all? It's not. Had he remembered to vote the first time, he wouldn't ninja vote at all. As it is, if he is town, he gets yet another PM from the host, which likely makes him go and actually vote. Ninja voting here fits exactly with boxerfred's play so far from a town perspective, and logically is no scummier than anything boxerfred has already done, which Vivax doesn't want to lynch him for.

Then boxerfred votes in the voting thread, and Vivax pushes him.

Vivax no longer wants to vote for me (his strongest scumread for basically all of the day) to vote for boxerfred. However, even with the lynch being close between boxerfred and Hopeless1der, Vivax doesn't push boxerfred at all. He's still around, just seemingly not caring about the lynch.

I do not understand how town!Vivax can have a strong scumread on me, be null on boxerfred, and then when boxerfred ninja votes (which is not alignment indicative, as previously demonstrated), Vivax decides to vote for boxerfred even when someone else is trying to get a wagon on me and then not seem to care if boxerfred is lynched over Hopeless1der or not.

I feel like VIvax is more invested in being townread than pushing for the lynches that he wants. He plays at the start of the game, but once he starts getting townread he lets up the pressure on me (a relatively hard target) and lynches boxerfred instead (a relatively easy target), despite what his posts would have had you expect. Then on Day 2, his posting drops significantly and he easily goes along with the Mr. Cheesecake wagon. With the thread mostly inactive (marvellosity, justanothertownie, and Palmar busy on the weekend, WaveofShadow and rsoultin night killed) and the lynch not decided, I would expect town!Vivax to start being more active and leading the thread. He has scumreads and loves to lead town when he's needed to do so. But he's willing to relax and not do anything.

So marvellosity is a point of contention, and I (Trfel) was responding to a comment that someone else made, so my question isn't strange.But maybe it's interesting? What?And he's withholding judgement until I explain it, when he's already provided a perfectly reasonable explanation himself? Especially when he already made a townread on me? I don't understand why he's waiting for this, it feels like a way to not fully commit to his initial townread of me.

Wait, what? Look at the nested quote from justanothertownie, this read makes no sense. Justanothertownie says that there hasn't been anything else interesting, but KelsierSC is saying that things have moved on and asking for other reads. Justanothertownie is calling his early question to me the best observation of the game, while KelsierSC is townreading me, already provided a valid explanation, and is wanting to delay talking about this observation until I return to the thread. But he says that justanothertownie's point is good?!?! He disagrees with everything that justanothertownie said in tihs post.

From "I don't like the case on jat" to this? For little/no reason? It feels like KelsierSC was defending justanothertownie from (supposedly) temporary pressure, but then as the pressure became clearly very serious, KelsierSC became more willing to join it. Feels like he's trying to give himself the option of lynching justanothertownie if the wagon stays strong. It just seems opportunistic.

Note that I do have some reservations about justanothertownie and VisceraEyes, though no one else seems to and I realize that I am almost certainly being stupid, even if I don't know exactly why. I'll deal with it later.

And a few more. You get the idea, though. He makes a lot of posts saying that he'd rather lynch Hopeless1der than boxerfred.

Here's a post from Artanis[Xp] (town) in Tropical Storm Mini Mafia, with regards to deconduo (also town).He says that deconduo actually believes he is doing something useful, and he's right. Deconduo tried to prevent people from claiming something that could potentially get them killed by mafia, which he believed was extremely important.

He was lynched Day 1 in this game. He came back and kept posting in the Obs QT, showing an actual interest and investment in the game.

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Day 1
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PalmarTrfelDay 3
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