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On September 05 2015 10:24 Damdred wrote:
I really am for what its worth sorry for antagonizing fid and a few others when it came up to lynch me the last night we had.
It was all fake the anger etc because I knew that it was the right play especially with the information oneg had given me about winning without going to true lylo.
its unfortunate but after that night I had just decided to screw town I even told Tina I was just going to let mafia win.
before the talk of lynching me came up I had even came up with a plan of sorts to get jj lynched over tt but yeah...
I don't think you can say overall town played horribly Kita played great and had a survivor who scum aided at the end after town siding. It was a rough game. A couple townies half way threw the game.
I think the biggest thing I can say to you tt is that if your going to keep yourself in the game at that point you have to bust your ass and ram down everyone's throats you are town.
Like you had 100% jj and geript against you.
You had me obi and yourself though that could of been convinced to end the game otherwise. So you played well up until the final day even up to the rit lynch wasn't horrible.
I want to be clear. I was not 100% against TT. Like I can see scenarios where I lynch JJ there instead. The problem is that he came back looking really fucking scummy. Plus, I didn't think it mattered who we lynched first because there's like no chance that there's 2 mafia. Except host had really fucked up win cons which should never ever be used and I wasn't aware that such awful win cons existed.
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The thing that I'm most pissed about is the fact that some people were informed about mafia win conditions and others were not.
On September 05 2015 10:24 Damdred wrote:
It was all fake the anger etc because I knew that it was the right play especially with the information oneg had given me about winning without going to true lylo.
Like this is a situation which 100% completely changes how everyone plays. It changes how survivor plays. It changes how mafia plays. It changes how town plays. If players are going to be told this, then it 100% needs to be posted in the OP and made clear to everyone.
This is also the reason why I'll ignore Onegu games from now on.
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On September 05 2015 12:19 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2015 12:04 geript wrote:
The thing that I'm most pissed about is the fact that some people were informed about mafia win conditions and others were not. As far as I know, "some people" is only damdred right? The mafia team wasn't aware that the survivor auto-sided with mafia either. I was fully expecting to have to go through an awkward 1v1v1 king maker scenario where I would need to convince damdred to lynch obi. Considering that mafia had only 1 kp past the first night, which could be roleblocked by the jailer or rber, along with 2 watchers and 3 cops, and several day vigs I don't think it's all that terrible to have the survivor work that way. Maybe the only difference would be to make that fact public, but the setup is closed so that's not really necessary.
That only makes it worse. Mafia didn't receive their win con. 3P received mafia's win con. WTF??? That's even more fucked up.
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Like, the fact that there are 2 cops (maybe 3) and 2 watchers (which are less useful) is balanced out by the fact at mafia has a huge amount of extra KP. 2 Nukes and a PGO at least. Like I don't think you can realistically balance roles/setup in all blue setups. You just have to hope that it's close enough, which I think it is albeit probably 55-60% town favored.
You don't balance out roles by altering win conditions. I mean, think how you would feel if you auto lost because you went into 1-1-1 lylo but were auto lynched because host says so. That's really fucked up and that is essentially what is happening with this win con. You know. Fuck that.
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On September 05 2015 12:55 Damdred wrote:
I asked if like his other games if 3p auto won if it got to lylo with mafia if its win condition wasn't in competition with mafia kp.
And I got my answer, I asked if mafia knew oneg said no. I dropped a hint in the thread then made up fake answers when town for curious.
It stinks for town but yeah
No it doesn't stink for town. It's complete bullshit. Hosts should not decide how the final lynch of the game goes. It's really, really fucked up and shouldn't ever happen. All it does is create feel bads. Put Onegu in OWS's place. They posted about as much and were as effective. But Onegu recently has actually gotten to lynch someone in lylo.
It's a really fucking terrible policy to have as a host and he should change it. If he doesn't change it, then there's literally zero reason for anyone to play in his games because they can't count on regular win conditions or on the host not preemptively ending the game.
In a closed setup, if he's going to answer that question for you, then he needs to post that in the thread. Because it gives an unfair advantage to you. It also pretty heavily favors scum in two different ways; first, it makes it far more favorable to just lynch 3P regardless of what they claim (preventing scum lynches) and second it means they gain an extra player or two near ANY lylo. It's really terrible and should never ever be used. Additionally, people should know what their win conditions are in the least.
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On September 05 2015 13:04 kitaman27 wrote:
Personally I think the survivor role would be more interesting if it always worked by auto siding with mafia at lylo. At least that way there is more incentive for them to hide their identity. Typically survivors just claim day 1, never get shot or lynched because it is so uncommon for mafia to make that play, and then win at endgame.
When survivors are completely neutral at lylo you have this weird situation where the survivor doesn't really care who gets lynched, yet determines the outcome of the game based on whoever they decide to favor.
I'm fine with survivor roles working that way as long as it's clear that they work that way. It makes playing survivor tougher. As an idea of always "mafia siding," I'm fine with that. But you can't have town not know about that situation so they can are unable to make informed decisions. For example, if town knew that then 100% there's far more pressure to nuke/lynch Damdred regardless of the 3p checks.
The other problem I have with this is that you should've had to send in a NK. Because while it's 1-1-1 if you shoot town, you still have the option to shoot Damdred and cause hella trouble.
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On September 05 2015 13:07 ObiWanShinobi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2015 13:02 geript wrote:On September 05 2015 12:55 Damdred wrote:
I asked if like his other games if 3p auto won if it got to lylo with mafia if its win condition wasn't in competition with mafia kp.
And I got my answer, I asked if mafia knew oneg said no. I dropped a hint in the thread then made up fake answers when town for curious.
It stinks for town but yeah No it doesn't stink for town. It's complete bullshit. Hosts should not decide how the final lynch of the game goes. It's really, really fucked up and shouldn't ever happen. All it does is create feel bads. Put Onegu in OWS's place. They posted about as much and were as effective. But Onegu recently has actually gotten to lynch someone in lylo. It's a really fucking terrible policy to have as a host and he should change it. If he doesn't change it, then there's literally zero reason for anyone to play in his games because they can't count on regular win conditions or on the host not preemptively ending the game. In a closed setup, if he's going to answer that question for you, then he needs to post that in the thread. Because it gives an unfair advantage to you. It also pretty heavily favors scum in two different ways; first, it makes it far more favorable to just lynch 3P regardless of what they claim (preventing scum lynches) and second it means they gain an extra player or two near ANY lylo. It's really terrible and should never ever be used. Additionally, people should know what their win conditions are in the least. Huh?
People should never be unclear about their win conditions. If Onegu were playing the game (in your slot) and you hosting, he'd have the feel bads too because the last lynches were set. Onegu has been in idk 2-3 lylos recently; but he's gotten to lycnh people in said lylos. This one not so much. 1-1-3 isn't lylo and shouldn't be unless players are aware of that fact.
Basically, if you run a game with non-standard roles, players should be informed about that. If you run a game with non-standard alignments, players should be informed about that. If you run a game with alignment altering roles, players should be informed about that. If you run a game with non-standard win conditions, players should be informed about that. Jester existing is a bit surprising but is kinda meh because you know it's themed and more likely to have non-standard 3P roles. You can bitch about balance being off a little but because it's themed it's kinda a given going in that one side or another will be heavily favored. But when you spring other major changes (like alignment altering roles or altered win-conditions), that's something people need to know going into the game so they can choose whether the game is right for them to join or not.
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On September 05 2015 13:19 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2015 13:09 geript wrote:On September 05 2015 13:04 kitaman27 wrote:
Personally I think the survivor role would be more interesting if it always worked by auto siding with mafia at lylo. At least that way there is more incentive for them to hide their identity. Typically survivors just claim day 1, never get shot or lynched because it is so uncommon for mafia to make that play, and then win at endgame.
When survivors are completely neutral at lylo you have this weird situation where the survivor doesn't really care who gets lynched, yet determines the outcome of the game based on whoever they decide to favor. I'm fine with survivor roles working that way as long as it's clear that they work that way. It makes playing survivor tougher. As an idea of always "mafia siding," I'm fine with that. But you can't have town not know about that situation so they can are unable to make informed decisions. For example, if town knew that then 100% there's far more pressure to nuke/lynch Damdred regardless of the 3p checks. The other problem I have with this is that you should've had to send in a NK. Because while it's 1-1-1 if you shoot town, you still have the option to shoot Damdred and cause hella trouble. It's a closed setup. Of course the survivor can work that way without informing everyone. I agree that each faction should be aware of their own win condition, but in a closed setup it is not necessary for town to be aware of every win condition. Here is slam's role from Apeture 4, which you co-hosted: Show nested quote +On April 03 2015 08:00 GreYMisT wrote:
In order to win, you must meet 2 of these goals:
1. Frank Underwood must be elected on D1 (as fighter, rogue or cleric)
2. The cleric, the rogue, then the fighter must die in either that or the reverse order
3. 2 planeswalkers must die before they use their ultimate abilities
4. The number of 3rd party in the game equals both the number of mafia and the number of town
5. The Time-Travelling Perfectionist acts on you
6. Kill a role (not via the lynch, unless you mayor control over it) that has been in a previous Greymist game
7. Collect 3 items (you must have the 3 items when you have completed your other required goal)
8. Frame a player the night they are investigated
9. Get a majority of the players in the game to type ##Vote: GLaDOS in the thread in a single day.
10. Survive your "I'm Right, I'll bet my life on it!" ability
Once you achieve 2 victory conditions, then you will be removed from the game. Town doesn't know his win condition so they are unable to make an informed decision, but it was completely acceptable because it's a themed game with a closed setup. As for the shot, I posted my intentions to shoot you in the mafia QT, but I see your point.
On March 23 2015 05:44 GreYMisT wrote:
Alignments
The following Will exist in the game:
Town: Objective - Kill all mafia, and all third parties that can’t win with town
Mafia: Objective - Outnumber the town and no third parties with competing win conditions remain. KP for Mafia is #Mafia/2 rounded up. The number of Mafia is unknown. The Mafia Do not require members to carry out KP.
Other factions might exist. Their win condition(s) is/are unknown
There's a major difference though. The OP specifically states that 3P can have a variety of odd win conditions and that Mafia's win condition is clear. Like I'm not bitching about the fact that game ended due to likely 1-1-1 situation; I'm bitching about the fact that that fact is something everyone should've been aware of ahead of time. It's completely normal to expect that when you see normal roles (albeit with twists but still in general normal) and normal 3P, to expect normal win conditions. This game used a different win condition from normal. That's what's unacceptable.
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Like knowing mafia KP value and factional/delivered is nice, but in no way required for figuring out the game and making decent decisions. That sort of thing can be figured out over the course of the game. But knowing that mafia win conditions can be abnormal are exceptionally important because that can 100% change how town plays.
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On September 05 2015 14:17 Onegu wrote:
Ok here goes.
I made the survivor that way because of setup. With only 4 mafia and 1 traitor. Mafia weren't aware that there was a traitor. Mafia weren't aware that Survivor would side with them also. Survivor, Traitor, and Jester were not allowed to claim. Without this the setup was really town favored. I can see why you don't like it. And maybe I should have posted Scum and Town wincons. I made it 6 scum but only 4 could carry KP. Also scum didnt have a ton of KP. They had 2 KP the first night. One scum started with 1 nuke. And one scum PGO. The other nukes were RNG to people.
If Survivor wasn't allowed to claim, then why wasn't Damdred modkilled for claiming survivor like 80 times?
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Like I'm really not trying to give you a hard time, but I don't get why if you consider it a balancing factor why you let one part of said balancing factor slide while enforcing the other half of it.
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On September 05 2015 16:05 rsoultin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 05:26 Onegu wrote:
Disclaimer Part 1: This game is not meant to be played super serious. I will do my best with the balance team to make it balanced. That being said I am trying to theme it well more than balance it well. I would enjoy it if you guys played serious but played to enjoy yourselves more.
Disclaimer Part 2: If you have been a active player in the last 2 years there is a high probability you will be a role in this game. If you dont like it I dont really care I am onegu and you all love me and I am sure will forgive me. If you have a really big problem that you might be a role in this game PM me and I might take you out as a role.
Disclaimer Part 3: This will be a completely closed setup. Nothing will be notified unless absolutely necessary.
Disclaimer Part 4: This is a Onegu hosted game. Expect a hiccup hosting wise, because I am Onegu. Dont bitch about it if/when it happens. I will modkill you so hard ask Koshi. This being said I will do my best to make sure there are no hiccups but no promises.
While I'm paying attention to all of your complaints, geript, they're venturing into the realm of my no longer being able to determine what the purpose is. Please keep your comments constructive. (I did double-check Damdred's role to verify that it was in his role pm that he couldn't claim. It was. Whether or not that made it into the actual pm that was sent I can't verify. Nevertheless, mistakes aside, I fail to see what complaining about it now accomplishes?) The fact of the matter is that Onegu is known for treating 3p roles this way. And you knew from the start that this was a closed setup. I'm sure he's aware that you don't agree with how he balances 3p survivors. It's probably time to move on.
One of these days i just need to write a thing about how to properly host. I hate losing, but nothing is worse than when there are specific things that hosts do that ruin a game. I mean, I don't think it's anything but common sense on how to run a game yet there's a history of people making pretty major mistakes as host. I'd just like to see people actually learn from their mistakes.
For themed games, it's definitely much tougher because balancing is exceptionally hard.
TBH, I don't claim to be the best host ever. My mini PYP was horrifically balanced. In one of my first games as host, I forgot to set an alarm for a deadline and overslept it (was exhausted from school/work).
But the basic rules of hosting a really simple:
1. Keep your OP updated with who's alive/dead, filters, flips and important posts.
2. Make sure that your rules are clear. In themed games this may mean that you just need to note that rules may be abnormal.
3. Don't be afraid to modkill people. In general, it's better to err on the side of modkilling than not.
4. Be around (or have your cohost around) to be there for flips/etc.
5. Any non-standard stuff (roles, rules, alignment, wincons) should be noted in OP.
6. Don't interact with players/ limit interaction with players. Mod confirming is a real thing.
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On September 06 2015 01:25 raynpelikoneet wrote:
geript do you wanna host xfire with me?
maybe, I've got a few job interviews coming up so idk when my free time will be
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On September 06 2015 02:02 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2015 01:53 geript wrote:On September 06 2015 01:25 raynpelikoneet wrote:
geript do you wanna host xfire with me? maybe, I've got a few job interviews coming up so idk when my free time will be now my problem is i cannot host because i have not hosted here, i don't really need a "co-host" (though it would be a help anyways). So basically i don't even care if you do aything at all. i can handle the hosting myself, i just am not allowed to host, which is dumb.
Sure
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You should be able to throw it in the queue. Run the setup by BH
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EPT
