EPTNewbie Student Mafia XII
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For now. | ||
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edit: open player obviously I'll try and make do without a coach and see how I do. | ||
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All Dota players are confirmed town.  | ||
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Don't know the newbies that well.... | ||
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On July 11 2015 07:03 KelsierSC wrote: nice flavour ^^ <3 Onegu | ||
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The key to joining the town circle - if you aren't doing so already - is to start playing dota  If you already do, name your three favourite heroes. | ||
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noob why the vote on NHM? Can't tell whether your vote is a joke vote or not, the others I can. Fidei's first posting to me is NAI, he - or anyone for the matter - can talk anti spam. If you read other games, usually the first 1-2 pages are silly and most people make useless/silly/goofy posts. Sometimes with certain veterans it goes a bit longer than that. | ||
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If you look at my profile you can get a sense for my experience on TL. If you go to the database thread for any player who's played at least 1 game here (at least since Kitas last update here) you can also do the same. | ||
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On July 11 2015 22:32 Fidei86 wrote: @HTS I agree that it's easy to talk anti-spam. And it's also obviously possible to play a perfectly good scum game without either spamming or lurking. But my view is that if we build a good town atmosphere with all townies being active but not spammy, it makes it much harder for even good scum players to hide. If I start lurking or spamming, that'll be a good sign I'm Mafia. But since I'm town, I'll do my best to stick to my words. One thing that irks me is that I know that you aren't the biggest fan of spam either. Obviously this thread is much more in danger of being too quiet than too loud, but I would have hoped you'd join me echoing my words. Why the change of heart? Or have you just got your game face on (which, admittedly, wouldn't be very alignment indicative..) I honestly didn't feel it needed repeating (it stood on its own) and just wanted to start seeing what I could get out of the thread. I definitely agree to discourage spam as much as possible but at the same time don't ignore the lurkers. Similarly as was already said, there are high volume posters that do play well as mafia. Sometimes you might also get a milder form of spam if you have too many conversational posters. I can't remember where I said this before but I've said it multiple times now - there's conversational and case based posting and inevitably some people are going to have longer filters if they do engage in long - even if useful - conversation. That said I think either way if people keep things to the point, EBWOPs aside, spam really shouldn't be an issue. That said, this post by Grokken http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=129&topic_id=488742 was called into question and honestly I don't think this warrants a scum read - if he's scum, it's not going to be for this. In the context of that entire conversation, there's nothing but sarcasm, to me it's just a cheeky post especially considering the "oh shit you got me" response Gandhi posted after that. The two of them (him and Gandhi) seem pretty carefree like they don't really care what people think of them, which actually warrant a town tell. The second quote that was called into question - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/488742-newbie-student-mafia-xii?page=8#148 First off - one liners aren't alignment indicative either way - like I said before someone might try to evaluate conversation as they have it. I don't think it's reasonable to scum read him largely because NHM hasn't been back to respond so how are you setting up the expectation already that he needs to follow up? There's nothing to follow up on. I think Grokken is a townlean based on his first few posts, it is reasonable for a new player to question something that seems off or may warrant an explanation - and I agree it does. I don't think TJ is being reasonable to set up the follow-up expectation when it's pretty clear where the expectation lies - the answer to that particular question. A haste to judgement is a scumlean (esp for a player I don't know). | ||
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On July 12 2015 02:32 GhandiEAGLE wrote: Grokken's first post seems pretty innocuous to me, and even if there was something sinister behind it, reading someone at all in the first few posts creates poor conclusions, imo. Second post there is sketchier to me, in that it seems serious in its attempts to prod the town, despite not actually bringing up any discussion that will lead to a conclusion. That's a little smelly to me. That said, it's tiny enough that it could fly either way. Day 1 reads are all luck anyways :| The irony here is that it did - although more on the asker of the question (Grokken) than the subject (NHM). In any case I do want to see what NHM says on Fidei's opening or subsequent posts. Also find it interesting that Sulfurus tells MD to create his big filter, yet he doesnt' comment on anything MD has posted so far nor does he derive a conclusion from the latest quote MD posted about creating a big filter. Usually hanging back like this is a scum tell for a newbie player. On July 12 2015 04:09 Sulfurus wrote: @Moosy If you want a monster filter do it yourself. | ||
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On July 12 2015 02:59 MoosyDoosy wrote: Let's talk guys. I want to create a monster filter so that no one can accuse me of Mafia. :3 On this quote itself, this could be self-consciousness (a scum tell) or it could be an earnest townie just wanting to play the game, but then again scum wouldn't make this so obvious. Newbie scum....ehhhh probably not. Probably a slight townlean, maybe I'm wrong, I don't know how MD played last game. | ||
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On July 12 2015 04:46 GhandiEAGLE wrote: Right now its basically impossible to read into anything effectively, so Day 1 we might as well just flush out all of the lurkers, which I may work on when I get off work in a couple hours. If I'm reading you correctly you want to lynch lurkers (bolded). Policy lynches are something you resort to (or calling for a potential vigilante to shoot them or any DT to check them at night) for lurkers. You always want to give some effort to look for some sort of scummy behaviour. I did gloss quick over the first few pages of the one game you played. You seemed a bit clueless as town in some of your posts, so I am inclined this could be another deer in the headlights reaction from you however, pretending to do nothing is a meta that can be easily faked. It's a null read for now until I see the first wave of reads from you - which you did eventually offer in your town game. | ||
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The same thing would also apply for (at this point in time) WannaPlay who has yet to post. SW is a null read as he is repeating most of the points said and repeating (parroting is another term you'll see used) is something that can be done as either alignment early on, exclusively parroting the entire game is usually scum indicative. Looking through the thread I would say my top three lynches at this point in time are Sulfurus (the post on MD), MD (self-meta) - I know I've seen veterans try to trash/adjust their meta, but for someone who's only played one game on site, I don't understand why you'd want to make the game more difficult for yourself as town - and to a lesser extent NHM (the post on Fidei). On MD, aside from what others have said, I also don't like the comment "creating specific scenarios" - unless you are directly accusing noobking of actually lying about what happened last game, it would otherwise seem he's relating from another game - database on NSM shows what noob said actually happened re: the nightkills so that is a clear indication you were in decent standing amongst the playerbase in that game. | ||
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On July 12 2015 12:06 GhandiEAGLE wrote: I'm strictly against considering policy lynches this early in the day. I'm saying we should get everyone to start talking because lurkers quickly become scapegoats, especially in newbie games where lurkers are often people who are just unsure of what to say. Alright, good, thanks for clarifying. I wasn't sure by when you said "flush out" - I usually think "get rid of" but you simply meant "expose" or force them to play. Fair enough. From what I read of your other game you have admitted some hesitation as town to read people. Do you have even a slight thought on the most discussed lynch targets (from what I can tell - scott/Nydus/Moosy/Sulfurus)? | ||
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Another thing of note - for MD - question for you On July 12 2015 07:49 MoosyDoosy wrote: For people wondering, what I do is find townreads and work from there so don't expect me to be finding Mafia anytime soon. In the earlier stages of the game, and especially when there are at least 3-4 individuals that have little to no posting with (I think approx 19h left in the day cycle), how do you expect to ultimately decide whom you want to lynch for the D1? | ||
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You're not particularly answering the question. Maybe it might help if you answered the one I just posed. | ||
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On July 12 2015 09:57 TJHuggins wrote: I think you're reaching a bit here. This post seems so opposite to everything else you've written this game. What gives? I don't think I agree with this sentiment TJ. I think I know what Fidei is trying to achieve with the question, but I'll let him sort it out. | ||
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On July 12 2015 12:21 MoosyDoosy wrote: Not particularly interested in something because I'm still waiting but whatever. I try and form who I think are the core of townies and work from there. I do tend to sheep cases in the earlier stages of the game but it's not because I'm mindless.  Something to keep in mind.And what if town are on the wrong track? How do we know you aren't taking advantage of that as scum? | ||
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On July 12 2015 12:41 MoosyDoosy wrote: You don't. Which is why things are interesting. :D I think in 18-19 hours' time let's see if you find the noose interesting. ##vote MoosyDoosy | ||
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If you're town you shouldn't be doing this. What do you think on the most widely (not just me) discussed potential scum if you aren't? (scott/nydus/sulfurus) | ||
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On July 12 2015 13:35 Grokken wrote: Also, I might have to change my stance on MD being town. his later posts seem rather suspicious as other people have pointed out. I don't really buy the "switching things up" claim. Also, the following seems contradictory: HtS proposed that we try to lynch the most scummy person rather than policy-lynching people for lurking, and rather use DT checks/VT shots for the lurkers, which seems reasonable to me. I listed the lurkers as potential lynch targets mostly because I didn't have any other scumreads. MD might be a better target for a day 1 lynch. You said in your FIRST assessment of him: On July 12 2015 06:22 Grokken wrote: MoosyDoosy: Has made some good posts in my opinion. In particular I agree with the following post: I was going to bring this up myself, but seems like you beat me to it. Although the defense is good, I think it would be better to just let me defend myself, especially because I haven't really posted much before now. MoosyDoosy is a townread for me. You pick up ONE post that was good but the posts that others commented on that were poor were also BEFORE you posted. The two posts called into question by others BEFORE your first assessment are: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/488742-newbie-student-mafia-xii?page=8#160 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/488742-newbie-student-mafia-xii?page=9#174 If you townread him for his posting in general, why did these posts pass you by? The second was about an hour before you responded so it's not likely you were ninjaed there. The switching things up argument was also made BEFORE your first townread of him. To me at first glance, this looks like you are blending in with the crowd once MD has been called out. | ||
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On July 12 2015 22:07 KelsierSC wrote: I will send out the message from my cabin but I see no reason to abandon my sanctuary to the "chaotic" game I created. Groken and Wp look like scum so far . Terrible list posts early in the game. How are they terrible list posts? Repeating here but newbies do that a lot. How is that outside the realm of possibilities for town? And for people legitimately entering the thread late what are your expectations? Additionally Grokken's posted more than that how much did you take that into account? How much of the WP read is OMGUS? | ||
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On July 13 2015 05:15 Sulfurus wrote: So as far as I am concerned Moosy has killed himself and talking about him is a waste of time, which ironically makes Kelsier the most productive town since he moved the conversation to something actually important. Anyway I noticed that HTS came to Grokk's defense against an accurate post on him even after calling Grokk out for blatantly reversing his read on Moosy just to fit thread sentiment. What's up with that? No, just no. Out of context much? There's a massive difference between questioning someone's argument on/for their target (which n00bking did too mind you) and defending said target. There was reason to question Kelsier over what he posted, and that is not the same as coming to Grok's defence. Just no, and your first sentence in that post is like you don't care about the lynch which screams mafia. The fact you aren't even lending your opinion re: MD when presumably you've had experience with him one way or another is also another red flag and I'm thinking you're just content to let him die if he's town. You haven't done jack all and that's not even considering that your first serious post in the game is actually scummy. n00bking might be on to something about that meta argument of yours. You haven't even passed judgement on some of the other players in this game. Maybe there's a solution to that...the noose. ##unvote ##vote Sulfurus | ||
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Sulfurus > MD/NHM (tossup) > Scott I shouldn't be talking about replacements...but there was a call for one for this game, and I'll just leave it at that. | ||
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On July 13 2015 06:04 silentwarrior wrote: Gonna vote for NydusHerMain. Right now, she isn't saying much at all, and left pretty suspiciously. I would rather her get lynched than MoosyDoosy, since he is actually active and contributing. That helps the town, even if most of what he says is bad and he is still high on my scumlist. However, not saying anything dosen't help much at all. Do you have any comments on the other top candidates? (sulfurus/scott) | ||
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On July 13 2015 05:40 Fidei86 wrote: I've got my vote in for Moosy, just in case my internet crashes or I get distracted or something. But I'll try and be around for EOD. I'd much rather lynch Sulfurus, NHM or Scott. Anyone willing to help with one of those? I'd prefer NHM, I think, but any of those would be fine. I cannot abide lurkers. Sulfurus is the most scummy lurker. | ||
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He's got a point here Kels, Anyone can parrot and continuous parroting is a problem but fundamentally if there's no original material, most list posts are actually null provided they aren't totally illogical, or something in that post isn't out of context (which is why SW was null to me as well on his first set of opinions). Now where is everyone, switching to Gaiden until I see more people....but I am here. | ||
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On July 13 2015 03:32 Fidei86 wrote: You're asking people to vote for you? You very rarely see town do that. Actually on average townies are more likely to do that than mafia especially in newbie games. Veteran games are slightly different but newbie games...but the fact that MD self-metaed already obviously negates all that. On July 13 2015 05:32 n00bKing wrote: Looking forward to half the players being mod-killed by Day 2, for failure to vote.  Just by the way, does anyone know of any decent websites for playing Mafia-by-Forum? This is honestly one of the best ones. Stick around for the veteran games, from what I can tell of your play, regardless of whichever alignment you are, you seem pretty cut out for the vet games, where people do take things a little more seriously. The thread on average moves slower in newbie games, that's just how it is. On July 13 2015 03:43 TJHuggins wrote: Can you explain to me how I am supposed to differentiate "shitty townie" play from Mafia play? The way your posts are reading to me now it sounds like you are a mafia resigned to their fate. If that's not the case then what is your play here? Do you have anyone you think is mafia? Anyone that you think is town? Any reasons for those reads? Any reasoning for why you have been writing/acting like a 14 year old for the last 12 hours? I'm going to be seriously upset if you are lynched and flip town because all that I will be thinking is: "What the fuck?" Honestly I'm fearing that, and ESPECIALLY with the afk votes, and the comment by Sulfurus.... WAKE UP PEOPLE. | ||
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On July 13 2015 06:31 TJHuggins wrote: Figured I would post where I am at before EOD (for obvious reasons). Here's a scum list for me right now in order: 1. MoosyDoosy 2. Sulfuras 3. Grokken Scott, NHM, and silentwarrior are all in a 3rd category for me which includes players that haven't impressed me with their content and have not left any last impact on me. Might be mafia, might be town. I would rather wait until day 2 to deal with this group since it may give them more time to provide content for me to figure out their alignment. Personally, I'd rather kill someone whos acting scummy than someone whos just a crap shoot (actually if this were video mafia I would pressure them and force them to talk but I can't really do that here.) If at EOD 2 I still have nothing on those three, I would advocate to shooting, cop checking, lynching them. I would caution against vig shooting or cop checking any of the lurkers this night because I don't think it will really help progress our scum leads much. A vig shot is better saved on a clearly scummy person (same logic as above) and cop check better on someone whos a bit more active. If there's a vig in the setup, shoot Sulfurus 100%. I'm waiting to see if there's more votes for the switch, but I'm fearing with the number of people just sat on MD and the last comment by Sulfurus, MD if town, made this an easy ML for the mafia, which is infuriating, especially for a D1 lynch. If there's a DT, check any of the lurkers/nulls - NHM/Scott/SW/WP And what specifically is the deal with Grokken from your end? | ||
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On July 13 2015 06:09 Half the Sky wrote: My preferred order atm Sulfurus > MD/NHM (tossup) > Scott I shouldn't be talking about replacements...but there was a call for one for this game, and I'll just leave it at that. | ||
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MD FFS SAVE YOURSELF IF YOU ARE TOWN. | ||
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On July 13 2015 06:50 n00bKing wrote: Unless you know more than what is bolded, your post could just as easily refer to Scott. Anyway, I have moved my vote to Sulfurus. Very true, I had Scott as null/policy lynch regardless but that just reinforces the case that both should probably be left alone. | ||
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On July 13 2015 06:52 n00bKing wrote: Believe that there are now 4 votes on Sulfurus. You/fidei/Kelsier/me. And in your 3 votes on Moosy, are you counting his own vote? Because it won't/shouldn't count. Grokken, Sulfurus, TJH Eagle hasn't voted I don't think. | ||
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On June 27 2015 13:22 Onegu wrote: Voting rules: 1. Voting is done by posting in the separate voting thread. Votes posted in this thread will not be counted. 2. Please vote in the following format: ##Vote: Kavdragon or ##Vote Kavdragon. Votes must be in bold, and votes not written in the correct fashion will not be counted. 3. No conditional voting. 4. You may vote only for other living players in the thread. You may not vote for yourself. 5. This game uses plurality voting, so whoever has the most votes at the end of the day is lynched. There is no minimum number of votes required to lynch someone. If there is a tie for most votes, whoever most recently had more votes than the other is the person who is up for the lynch. 6. The person who is up for the lynch is whoever has the most votes. Bringing another player up to that number of votes doesn't put him up for the lynch; he has to have the most votes. 7. Voting is mandatory. You may NOT abstain. Not to be persnickety... | ||
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On July 13 2015 06:56 Sulfurus wrote: lol this is the most OMGUS vote I've ever seen. I'm sure most people just saw a bunch of words in HTS's filter and assumed she was town without noticing the way she is just throwing out accusations until she gets something to stick. You realise there's not a shred of OMGUS in my argument and then again I scumread you BEFORE your last comment on me so that is also debunked. | ||
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On July 13 2015 05:15 Sulfurus wrote: So as far as I am concerned Moosy has killed himself and talking about him is a waste of time, which ironically makes Kelsier the most productive town since he moved the conversation to something actually important. Anyway I noticed that HTS came to Grokk's defense against an accurate post on him even after calling Grokk out for blatantly reversing his read on Moosy just to fit thread sentiment. What's up with that? Seriously how in the hell do you say something like this with the amount of time you had to sort him out? | ||
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GGs Sulfurus. It wasn't personal <3 | ||
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Vig....ehhhhhh....I'm not sure on this one. Medic, if you exist...well the voting table should clearly indicate whom to save. | ||
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On July 13 2015 07:11 TJHuggins wrote: Wow. Mod-error in town's favor. I'll take it. We pointed that out in page 15. Nothing was changed after the fact. I'd have responded to you but some mods modkill if you post after deadline and as a moderator myself I didn't want to chance that. | ||
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On July 13 2015 07:29 Sulfurus wrote: I don't count this as getting lynched since 4 people didn't vote but regardless gg wp. It's plurality lynch Sulfurus, not majority. There's a massive difference between the two, hopefully someone's telling you that in the obs qt. On July 13 2015 07:14 TJHuggins wrote: I so strongly felt that MD is the most obvious mafia there could possible be... I was going to be so mad if Sulfuras flipped town. Now I'm not so sure since sulfuras was voting on MD. I need to reread Sulfuras posts to see why he was voting on MD. That's part of the problem....there were none. That is how I tagged him! On July 13 2015 07:32 TJHuggins wrote: Also doesn't giving people only a warning for not voting a bit of a bad precedent to set? Isn't this essentially akin to allowing each player to make one non-vote each game? This is a newbie game for a reason. People here (well 10/13) are new to TL. It's trying to get used to our site - kiddie pool style. Even in veteran games some moderators (Artanis, myself, etc) will allow warnings for first offences, and others (e.g. Blazinghand) will directly modkill. Again, the rules are NOT universal, so always read the OP. On July 13 2015 08:12 n00bKing wrote: Would be interested in hearing opinions from others, on whether this would be the best use of a Cop's ability. A null is always statistically more likely to be Town than not. So if a Cop just goes stumbling into that group, he can expect to get a Town check back. The good thing about getting a town check on someone in that group is that you won't mislynch them, when otherwise, it is always tempting to lynch a lurker. But the bad thing about getting a town check on someone in that group is that...even once you know you can trust them, how much help are you really going to get from them? If Nydus were to come back, and we knew he could be trusted, then maybe that would be awesome, having a vet that is known to be Town, for sure. But right now, I don't see how we can bank on Scott/SilentWarrior/WonnaPlay giving us a lot of assistance in reasoning things out, even if they were known to be Town. Grokken and TJ have both been much more active. I'm more curious about whether those guys are actually allies of mine, than I am about whether Scott is. And each is suspicious, in his own way. They both had their vote on Moosy while the Godfather was getting lynched. So that's not great. And then: Grokken - Kelsier hated his list post. I didn't, really. But Kelsier could still be right, even though I didn't see anything. What was more suspicious to me was that when I started to turn thread sentiment against Moosy, Grokken quickly flipped his read on Moosy from Green to Red. TJ - Being pissed about the Sulfurus lynch isn't necessarily alignment-indicative. Because if he were scum & smart, he would raise hell about it in the scum thread, and not here in the main thread, where it paints him in a negative light. But he could have been WIFOM'ing, or he could have been reacting in an emotional moment, without first thinking about how it would be perceived (as this is his first Mafia-by-Forum game, it sounded like). Moreover, there was something specific about TJ's behavior (that I won't bring to light just yet) that I found suspicious throughout all of Day 1. A town-check on this guy would keep me from spending the rest of the game tunneled on him. lol Well here's the thing, there are two ways to play this, if there is a DT in this game. Clearing lurkers or red checking them will help you in LYLO - as scum will push a certain way through a game and then boom late game clearing people may catch them off guard. Alternatively you can also look at people whose current behaviour (if reasonably active) are soemwhat questionable or you cannot get a good read on them or if they appear controversial (like some people are townreading and others are scumreading) then they are also good checks. Given the current game state, I think for example Grokken would be a good check in this category. As for TJ's behaviour I think I know what you might be inferring but we'll see how he progresses N1/D2. | ||
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On July 13 2015 08:49 n00bKing wrote: Well HtS was already giving advice to the cop. hehI think it's worthwhile for people to give advice to pretty much any role that can use an action. The only reason for anyone to talk during the Night Phase is to guide the actions of the Blue Roles. That's it. Otherwise, no one should say anything until a minute before the deadline. Well it never hurts to plan for the next phase. I look at those who haven't voted for instance and I do wonder if some of them were trying to blend in (maybe? IDK, it's too early to tell, ie WP), but they really need to step up if they are town and.... ....the four people who did not vote for the love of everything good esp if you are town, DO NOT FORGET TO VOTE!!!!!!!!! | ||
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On July 13 2015 08:17 MoosyDoosy wrote: nonono Sulfurus was busing me. I'm Mafia too guys plz kill me. XD Alright down to business. Apparently my bait was successful although I wasn't around to catch the slip from Sulfurus. Glad to see that Half the Sky caught it. I'm going to actually work from here on out. Re-reading the thread seriously. LOL... anyhow....if you are town, you are in a good position to tell us who the scummers - if any - were on your wagon. Who do you think they were? | ||
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On July 13 2015 19:55 Fidei86 wrote: Meh, two things: 1) I don't think it necessarily reads that way; and 2) I don't think we should place too much weight on what he said, since technically he shouldn't have said anything. Or the fact that given he's flipped scum, it really should be disregarded as WIFOM. | ||
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Town: Fidei, myself, NK Probable town: KSC Town lean/maybe town: MD Null: Ghandi, WP, SW, Grokken Null/Policy: Scott Scumlean: NHM Probable scum: TJHuggins Grokken's thread sentiment point I did query that earlier and I think noob, you mentioned that too, do you think this response makes sense for the read change? Not sure if you missed it. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/488742-newbie-student-mafia-xii?page=11#210 | ||
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On July 13 2015 21:37 Fidei86 wrote: Has anyone ever been in a game with a successful D1 lynch? This is kind of new territory for me, I'm used to going straight through to LYLO with mislynches... Yes, twice, once as each alignment, though. Can you tie Sulfurus to anyone else, maybe? I guess that's what you are asking? | ||
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The short answer is that both individuals in my cases were caught out more or less because of meta. In Linux, the person who got nailed D1 was done so because he was more lurky than his town meta and he didn't followup on important points he made. He also showed a little too much concern for getting killed Night 1 (and he was getting killed N1 a lot) so he made excuses to not play D1. Additionally he made a very awkward turnabout read on a player that claimed blue D1. In Not Themed, the scummer who got lynched did so because he has a known meta where he contributes little and does nothing as scum. The individual who would have gotten lynched otherwise wound up being blue and people didn't lynch him even though his gameplay was scummy, so he wound up being the fallback alternative. The problem for town was that several townies were playing poor so it was easy to take advantage and neither myself nor my remaining teammate were ever caught. TLDR - D1 lynches come down to how organised town is, and why the lynches occur also lend some insight as to how they will progress later in the game. | ||
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On July 13 2015 22:07 Fidei86 wrote: Also, I think this is probably worth saying - if there is a medic, they should 100% try and save HTS this evening. She is probably the most town-read person (maybe along side me), but given that she just nailed Sulfurus in one post, I definitely think she's towns biggest asset right now. She's definitely smarter than me, anyway Awwwww <3 | ||
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And Tictock would appear to be a relatively easy player to read. I'd know, I coached him as town in NSM10 *happy dance* On July 13 2015 21:41 Fidei86 wrote: @HTS My list is basically exactly the same as yours, which is encouraging. I'm thinking the same on TJH, but I haven't had time to properly filter dive yet. Was there anything in particular you wanted to flag up, so I could keep my eyes open for it? Oh my, I realised I missed this question. Hold on. Grabbing relevant quotes. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler [initial read] + On July 12 2015 01:49 TJHuggins wrote: My initial reads so far is that i am town leaning on Fidei. I like the things he said in relation to spamming, and I think that him relating the perspective to a previous game where he was town feels like he's looking at the game from the perspective of a town. When he responded to HTS regarding talking about anti-spam being easy, he seems genuine. Or maybe it's just because I like his writing. No clue. My initial scum read is Grokken. It's nothing all that strong but I'm getting a wierd feeling about the things he's posted. To me it feels like he is trying to find ways to participate and seem town by chiming in now and again but really has no clue what to write about. I think that one sentence posts that appear to contribute to the game and don't really offer anything just kind of irk me the wrong way. I guess it's worth noting he did write that thing about Dota as well which was also one sentence but that's neither here nor there when it comes to the game I think. When I went back and read the post about him showing off his dota stats that actually reads to me a bit more towny now that I think about it, so not really sure. just an initial read. This post, there's an agenda in the sense that this read lacks context. First quote was part of a joke between him and Ghandi, and nothing should be made of it and TJH tried to. Second quote, there was reason to question NHM and that question isn't for naught. Overall he's making something out of nothing. I also feel he did the same thing when he tried to pin Fidei for the wording on MD earlier. + Show Spoiler [followup - "town prodding"] + On July 12 2015 03:10 TJHuggins wrote: I agree that it was grokken's town prodding question that got me suspicious of him in the first place. Then right after he says "this posts doesn't really offer anything" he then says it's a "town prodding question" (which noob called him out for anyways) so then why did he say before that it doesn't really offer anything? The wording association between those two quotes is really awkward. + Show Spoiler [comment on Sulfurus] + On July 13 2015 07:14 TJHuggins wrote: I so strongly felt that MD is the most obvious mafia there could possible be... I was going to be so mad if Sulfuras flipped town. Now I'm not so sure since sulfuras was voting on MD. I need to reread Sulfuras posts to see why he was voting on MD. Now TJH already had Sulfurus as 2 on his list of scummies so why would he need to reread it - additionally there was nothing Sulfur even said on MD which was the biggest issue I had. + Show Spoiler [Kelsier scumread] + On July 12 2015 23:16 TJHuggins wrote: Kelsier, I'm wondering if you would care to explain what factors weighed in on your decision here to vote for Wonnaplay as opposed to Grokken when from your previous post it appears you considered them equally scummy for the same reason? On July 12 2015 23:18 TJHuggins wrote: I think it's more like: Act like a fool and get town read for it. This one is pretty simple - he appears scumread Kelsier and then he drops that read altogether in his lynch list. Or at least it's not clear why he dropped him or where he stands on him now. TLDR - there's a bit of awkward progression and grasping for straws with the scumreads he's putting in. Also his reaction post-lynch was a bit more subdued and I'm ignoring the issues he's had with the mods, I'm more specifically talking about the "mod error I'll take it" post. | ||
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Town: Fidei, myself, NK Probable town: KSC Town lean/maybe town: MD Null: Ghandi, WP (cracking his latest post) Scott (scumreads pending) Grokken Tictock (replacement/additional material pending) Scumlean: SW (latest post okay, but possible distancing d1?) Probable scum: TJHuggins (aforementioned) Would like to see where some of you are getting the Ghandi town reads - still at null for me and I can't see where the clear town agenda is coming from. The policy lynch post/stance can easily be said by scum, unless people are light townreading him for his tone at the game's opening. This post is noncommittal. From a town perspective it may be understandably so or he could be scum struggling for a read. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/488742-newbie-student-mafia-xii?page=9#162 SW I have one reservation on him. There might be some distancing going on. I checked his filter again. There wasn't a weigh in on MD although the only thing SW said d1 was that he'd rather NHM over MD get lynched. However, look at his filter - first 5 posts on first page of his filter were before the lynch. His two posts on voting NHM were after my Sulfurus tag, and he makes zero mention one way or other on Sulfurus. Furthermore looking at votes, scum do and can hide on as solo votes, and a bit more apparent in newbie games (veterans are a bit more careful) so seeing SW solo voting nhm might be something to think about. If he posted his vote/observation on NHM before my tag or if he'd taken any stance on Sulfurus I'd have less reason to suspect him, but him not appearing to take a stance at all on Sulfurus is a red flag. (His last post prior to EoD was 56m prior to lynch, and returned 1h after lynch, first stance on Sulfur was 1h25m after lynch.) So alone his latest post may be wrong but that combined with a solo vote and lack of a stance anywhere prior to lynch has me reason to slight scumlean him for now. If TJH should happen to flip scum subsequently then SW becomes to me, that more suspicious. Sidenote - you said dinner Tictock? Sounds like you are in Europe? Whereabouts? Safe travels home tomorrow in any case. | ||
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GGs KSC. | ||
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Could be a medic dodge if there is a medic in the setup. Only other thing I can think of if KSC was on to someone that no one else was. That is another angle. Nightkills are WIFOM but it's to look at all angles. | ||
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This means a medic dodge is possible and the prot role is a medic. In randomised open setups, if there is roleblockable veteran in the setup, usually the RB and NK actions are stacked on the target to avoid chancing hitting the veteran. The fact that the nightactions were on separate targets, indicates that the prot role is likely to be a medic. (It should also be of note that scum already know the setup from the off, so me discussing this doesn't give them any extra advantage.) | ||
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On July 14 2015 06:40 Tictock wrote: @ HtS I am currently in Geneva, but tonight is my last night here. Will be boarding a flight tomorrow morning back to the States. I'm visiting my dad who moved out here a few years ago ( he works for the WMO), and did a crazy trip over the past week. We've been here in Geneva, Germany, and also Poland. Technically France as well but only for a short bit today. Very nice. I hope you enjoyed your holiday! Sounds like a blast. Speaking of life on the road, I'm headed to Munich for work in about 3 weeks time after a trip to the States (specifically NYC) starting Friday for 3 weeks (again for work) so I'm headed for a very interesting road trip myself. | ||
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Without further ado... ##vote TJHuggins Will return tomorrow. | ||
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On July 12 2015 14:16 scott31337 wrote: This is a pretty bad idea - I just was filter diving on who talked about/with Damdred - You, Boxer, Trfel and Milo looked the worst, and Breshke, HalfTheSky and Vivax look much more interactive with him. What do you think of Boxerfred? For everyone else this is the quote in question. Bottom of page 284. | ||
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I'm in Gaiden now but I will return here ASAP. | ||
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On July 15 2015 00:14 WonnaPlay wrote: @HtS : Probably a bit of a newbie question, but why did you immediately claim you had been Roleblocked? Everyone pretty much trusts you at this moment, so claiming Roleblock doesn't add any strength to your township. If someone else would claim RoleBlock and you were roleblocked this night, it would become your word against their word and then it's an easy lynch for all of us. Was it so that it helps figuring out what the scum was thinking or do people just always claim roleblock? I have a lot to add with analysis here but I will answer this question real quick. If you are roleblocked, always claim when RBs are notified. This is even more critical in semi-open setups (where you aren't 100% sure an RB exists). Anyone should do it, though in this case I was not concerned about towncred. People TRYING to do it for towncred is another issue entirely. 1 It tells town what scum were thinking. 2 It confirms a medic (and not veteran in the game) because the targets had different actions on them. If there was a vet, KSC has a 10 percent chance of being vet and being one scumer down already, scum don't want to chance getting KP blocked. 3 If someone else claims roleblocked, it's 100% a scum claim - or at least I know that. If you don't believe me then when I flip, you'll know immediately to lynch the other person. 4 When RBs are notified it gives town information. RBs especially in late game confirm townies so you'll see scumteams (reference NSM10) hold their roleblocks and in extreme case (usually in a 4-man mylo or if they opt for a no lynch in mylo) scum can hold their KP. | ||
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But I will put aside some time to post. Largely the TLDR version is that Ghandi looks significantly worse, Scott needs to fill in the gaps with his scumreads, his fear read on me is normal considering that he was on a scumteam where I (more or less) carried, and TJH is still poor, Grokken is slightly better, just skimming I need to get a firmer read on SW, WP and Tictock, the last of whom is concerning from a fear read (read: Holy Guardians) standpoint. The real question for me is whether I want to lynch TJH or Ghandi. WP seems okay for a newbie though. SW is the one I had a prior concern on. I observed that game and I want to cross compare points from that game, but from what I recall, the big problem was that you had milo who was guilty of TMI, Chocolate and Templar were too easy to lynch because they WERE pretty scummy and then Damdred and VE were both playing suboptimally and Scott was also easily mislynched. So basically in this game the way to prevent that with any potential player is if the town stays cohesive it will be harder for scum to hide. There was a Dutch newbie who was playing pretty well enough to not get MLed (in fact he got NKed N2 which was weird in of itself) and ritoky was also doing well but those two were offed pretty quickly. In a game where town plays suboptimally it will be much harder, based on meta you have to find out whether a player really believes someone is scum or is just trying to push an easy mislynch. Right now there aren't many standing out from the crowd so I'm thinking at this point in time Tic would be an easy read. If there's something you recall from HG that jumps out to you regarding Tictock shout. I do need to look at him in detail. | ||
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On July 14 2015 08:04 Fidei86 wrote: ??? TJH actually said *nothing* about Sulfurus, except adding him at #2 to his 'scum list' out of nowhere, and then being angry we didn't lynch Moosy. He voted for Moosy. To say he was "an early bird on the Sulfurus Train" is just totally wrong. This is actually why TJH is more likely to be scum. He "safely" put Sulfurus name as second behind Moosy. You have an unexplained change in reads and furthermore there was no followup after the fact. Not impressed with this one (Ghandi, that is, not Fidei's quote.) | ||
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On July 14 2015 08:09 GhandiEAGLE wrote: The rest of his filter is absolute trash, by the way. Nothing helpful at all; all of his posts constantly criticize other people for suspecting him, while offering literally zero content to push the town forward. If he isn't scum, I'd still policy lynch him Day 3 since based_HTS gave us plenty of time. I need meaningful contribution from Moosey or I'm not likely moving off of my vote without heavy evidence on someone else. ##Vote: MoosyDoosy I'm going to ignore the rest of this post because this actually speaks for itself - besides the points others brought up you aren't even taking into consideration why MoosyDoosy posted the way he did. I think the entire game agrees it is suboptimal but he's purposely putting himself as suboptimal and risked getting lynched to do that. Do you even remotely think it's likely scum would do that? He breadcrumbed his strategy. And you don't ever do policy lynches D2 and beyond in TL games, ever. There are 100-year exceptions but this would not qualify as one of them. And the waffling which others mentioned in comparison makes me realise you're trying to spare TJHuggins. On July 14 2015 08:12 GhandiEAGLE wrote: Filler and waffle is over, I've started making legit posts again. TJH wasn't a lie, I just misread the filter page. My inactivity is also clearly over. If you misread the filter page on TJH, you should also be changing your read. There is ZERO information from TJH on Sulfurus prior to the unexplained change in read. If you mis-read - then your read on him HAS to change if you are townie. On July 14 2015 08:11 GhandiEAGLE wrote: Note: I don't really think Moosy is mafia. I want him to help or get out. THEN YOU DON'T LYNCH HIM END OF. In case I wasn't clear the first time, and in the event you are a newbie..... DO NOT POLICY VOTE D2 AND BEYOND. EVER. THERE IS MORE THAN SUFFICIENT INFORMATION (THE D1 VOTE TABLE FOR STARTERS) TO GET A PROPER SCUM LYNCH OFF. On July 14 2015 08:15 GhandiEAGLE wrote: I already said I don't really want to lynch Moosy unless he keeps shitposting tomorrow, and at that point its a policy lynch. Also, talking about the likelihood of both D1 wagons being scum is irrelevant, just because it's unlikely doesn't mean that it justifies any of Moosy's play. Then you shouldn't even be voting him. Find the remaining scummers if you aren't one of them. On July 14 2015 08:45 GhandiEAGLE wrote: 1) Fidei. Town read; pushing me for my admittedly shitty posting when there was no real consideration of it earlier is pretty darn town. 2) WonnaPlay Lurk City, hard to know if spooked or noob, but sketchy either way. Because its a noob game all lurkers basically stay in neutral range, instead of my usual neutral-lurker range. 3) N00bking. Neutral; dont like his filter but he voted for sulfurus, so the two cancel each other out. 4) Silentwarrior. Shit-tier read list, bandwagonning, lurking. Didn't vote Moosy N1, so neutral or bad scum imo. 5) NHM/Tictoc Awful posting but apparently had an excuse so mleh. Tictoc says he's followed the game, and showed that he was present in the thread, but has yet to give anything meaningful to the game, so he's on my naughty list until something comes up. Most lurkers commit, but he's already poked his head recently. 6) Moosy Shit town, prodding him to post better hopefully he actually does, otherwise lynch for derailing conversation. No more discussion on him because its also just derailing now. C'mon man shape up. 7) TJ Huggins Bandwagonned on Moosy, pointed a lot of fingers, but generally been pretty baseless. This isn't quite a 180 of what I said earlier, because I said in my post that he wasn't scum to me. That hasn't changed; I should have clarified that I didn't think he was that innocent either, he's high up on my neutral list. Just not enough yet to vote on him. 8) Grokken. Seems pretty sketchy to me. Need to chug through filter again, but voting on me even before Fidei did just feels like someone trying to stand out and be opportunistic. He didn't start the attack, so he doesn't assume culpability if I get lynched and I'm town. He also can't hold onto an accusation. That said, he didn't fight Sulfurus being lynched; he voted Moosy but didn't protest Sulfurus' death. That doesn't mean, however, that he's not my scum read. Because he is. 9) HtS Untouchable right now. No fun there :< 10) scottblahblahnumbers The WORST kind of lurker, if he was maf, I'd be willing to bet he'd be more active, especially since he's not on the noob list; who plays mafia multiple times without wanting to actually participate? For that reasoning he's really town to me, but damn I hate how he's basically not in the game. It's frustrating. For n00bking if you are going to push a universally read town, you had better specify what you don't like about his filter. And if you are going to argue he bussed sulfurus instead of just saying cancelled out, you have to explain the risk reward analysis from his end. You fail to do that. Generally speaking your statement is incongruent, either the voting is the strongest evidence or you need to find a reason where his filter overrides the town cred from hammering (he was the deciding vote on) Sulfurus. You do neither. Saying overall neutral is a shallow read. And then you turn around and say SW is bandwagonning. On whom? D1, he was a solo voter which is one of the problems I had with him. The rest of your argument is unsubstantiated. The Scott read is terrible considering you have lurkers on other standards (double standards) like WP/SW. If you feel Grokken is scum, you should be pushing him. You should be voting him. TLDR: Basically your posting is just not believable from a town perspective nor you have/are doing jack all to reconcile those differences. I feel the posting before all of this too is contrived. I think you have the same problem as Sulfurus. You really don't care between lynching between Grokken and MD and being one down already you're badly in need of a mislynch. | ||
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On July 15 2015 00:07 WonnaPlay wrote: Top scumlist for me : 1] Scott - Gets defended by some people, without him having done anything. I think one of the people talking for him is atleast scum, defending scum. It would also explain the post Sulfurus made about "unvalid vote" and would even explain the night kill on Kelsier (if what you guys saying is true about veterans killing Kelsier). He isn't even AFK, but because he's afraid from HtS and therefore he is lurking, which raises alarmbells all over the place for me.. 2] Ghandi - too sketchy for my taste. The reason I don't have Ghandi on my #1 is that his list looks pretty decent. I'd agree on most points with him there, but who knows if he turns around again after that.. Also his conclusion on Scott being town is totally unwarranted. If Scott turns out to be scum, then Ghandi is one aswell. 3] TJH - made some weird posts during the end of the day regarding the votes, but I could see him being legitimately frustrated about his idea of different rules. I do think that HtS made some solid points, which I can't ignore since she was spot on in the last day. He's also very quiet since that day.. I don't think you are scum for this but a few things - Sulfurus was flipped scum so anything he says on the invalid vote should be disregarded as WIFOM. - Scott isn't afraid of me because he's scum - yes he could be but it's not for that comment on me. He's fearing that I'M scum - this is from his experience with me together on a scumteam. More on this in another post I will have on Scott. - Regarding your Scott/Ghandi/TJH reads, between Scott and Ghandi, who is MORE likely to be scum? And how do you know Ghandi, being the worse of the two from your perpective isn't BSing about Scott? | ||
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But unless there is an overriding reason you always side with percentage play analysis and Sulfurus didn't leave too much behind post-lynch. Whether you believe Scott or TJH is the final mafia you have to go with percentage play. ##unvote ##vote GhandiEAGLE | ||
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On July 14 2015 10:42 scott31337 wrote: I'm off in left field in this game but I think we almost have it solved - Sorry I'm not contributing much. HtS town love gives me a stiffy and normally she's not solid - <3 If you have reason to suspect me, you have a lot of things to prove. 1 I hard bussed Sulfurus from the off. If I were scum, tell me how many cycles it would be before I run into the "why is she alive" theory. 2 I was roleblocked. You'd have to either believe a) scum held their roleblock or b) there is reason to see a veteran in the game as they double stacked actions on KSC or c) I am the roleblocker. In the case of b) you'd still have to explain why KSC got NKed over n00b and Fidei. 3 In line with 1, assuming MD is town you'd have to believe as scum I saved a town that could have very easily been mislynched. I could have just done nothing. 4 You'd have to believe that I had TMI on Sulfurus based on the method that I used to tag him and/or to put it in simpler terms, you believe no townie can look at Sulfurus' post and question why Sulfurus thought it was a waste of time to discuss the leading wagon with 1h45m until EoD with FOUR NO-VOTES. 5 You'd have to believe that MoosyDoosy (who admitted he was springing a trap) and I were both scummates setting our own teammate up to be lynched, a teammate who was much less likely to be lynched than Moosy with at least 6 votes. Ockham's razor is usually the way to go unless you have reason (above) to think otherwise. If you can reasonably discuss at least 2-3 of the 5 points I raised above, then you might actually have a case. TLDR - Based on you being on a scumteam with me, you are not unreasonable to fear read me. That post does not make you scum. But fear reading alone isn't going to get you anywhere, and I learnt that one the hard way with Kitaman in Aperture 4. If you cannot discuss the above, then try again. On July 14 2015 19:11 Fidei86 wrote: Frankfurt airport is awesome - look for the recline chairs with the charging points if you're in terminal 2. Very comfortable. I can sheep this On July 14 2015 19:39 Tictock wrote: HtS can attest that my setup/role speculation has been very poor in the past as well, lol. This I can also sheep, in addition to your setup speculation. Vigilantes usually shoot N1 and there were several reasons to, even ignoring lurkers. (And it should have been clear from me telling a vig to shoot Sulfurus at EoD that I'm not a vig.) | ||
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Also 2 hours post-lynch depending on timezone is not considered too soon. Stateside, the EoDs (I'm assuming you are EU btw) are during evening rush hour, so who knows. I know you're new so I'm considering this part NAI for now. But popping up so soon after the lynch, 2 hours is not considered very soon. 2 minutes, yes you have a case. Again I am a bit ahead and it is an associative read at this point in time (meaning can't know until a Gandhi flip) but I'm still null on SW at the moment. I think based on effort most newbie scum wouldn't give much effort. At the same time scum are concerned with "looking town" so I do remain cautious on SW. | ||
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On July 15 2015 05:24 GhandiEAGLE wrote: But disagreeing with your points isn't what's scummy to me. What's scummy is that you jumped on the first bandwagon that had nothing to do with supposedly likely scum, TJ. You issued a short, uninformative paragraph, and then immediately voted for me before even the original accuser, Fidei, did. To me this just seems like opportunistic play that would side yourself with a clear town, give you little to no culpability when I turn up town after a lynch, and still allow you to have a time in your filter where you seemed proactive in a town role, so as to be another defense later. That seems scummy to me. ##Vote: Grokken That's the second time I've seen you misuse the word bandwagon this game. Now how does the first bolded sentence exclusively make Grokken mafia? I don't like the second bolded sentence since you are putting words in his mouth but I think there is a reason Grokken didn't vote TJ. But let's see if anyone else sorts that out. | ||
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On July 15 2015 08:37 n00bKing wrote: I don't think it's that big of a red flag. Sulfurus offered very little to take a stance on. I could see a new player looking at Sulfurus' filter and thinking "there is nothing here to work with." This is a decent point. He was a solo voter and having done too many VCAs to count I might be a little biased since he solo voted, but newbies probably don't have the concept of town consolidation down either, at least not yet. | ||
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On July 15 2015 08:44 n00bKing wrote: Well...then if the scum team knows there is a Vigilante in the setup, you can probably expect to be roleblocked again on Night 2 as well. Because they will be worried that you are yourself the Vigilante. In reality, the Vigilante may just have not fired yet, but they probably won't take the chance, and would roleblock you again. If anyone besides you gets RB'd on Night 2, then it's probably a Cop setup instead. Come to think of it, I have been in a newbie game where a newbie vigilante did not fire his shot. I guess it is possible. But it really doesn't happen often. We'll see. | ||
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I will put aside some time in about 2 hours when I step away for food. | ||
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On July 16 2015 00:25 scott31337 wrote: I've been really busy as well, but I can't forget to vote this time...We don't need any modkilled townies. ##Vote Tjhuggins Can you sum up where you stand on people in general this game? I don't need a big case or wall of text, even a list post, exclusive scumreads only, or something so we know where you stand. Or even in one line why you think TJH is the best lynch. | ||
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But Scott coming in without a previously stated stance on TJH is a bit interesting and if we're wrong on TJH, could point to the Scott/GE world that SW and (I think??) Grokken were discussing earlier given that I'm confident the rest of the wagon is green. | ||
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On July 15 2015 11:52 Tictock wrote: The issue with solo voting is that it makes it harder to look at vote counts after a flip. Ideally you want 2 solid wagons so that when you hit on scum you can start to figuer out which players on the opposing wagon are likely scum and which, if any, are scum bussing a teammate. I'm pretty guilty of throwing my vote out solo in past newbie games, so I understand the temptation to ignore the majority and vote for your own reads. However if you think about it all it really does it make it easier for scum to swing the votes in their favor. Maybe HtS can answer a little better, also I'm sure there is someplace on the interwebs that has in depth talk about what is good for voteing patterns as town. My counter question to get you thinking about it more, what do you think could be good about solovoting? Solovoting is an issue with closely contested wagons. You're removing yourself from the main wagons - there are a few legit reasons to solo vote but I'll allow you to see if you can sort that out. Basically I'll explain town consolidation. Tic alluded to it but town need to consolidate at EoD so that scum cannot take advantage of a split up town. The other thing is accountability - if vote counts for multiple (like 4 or more) wagons (let's say you have 3-4 wagons roughtly with the same number of votes) are relatively equal then there's no accountability and town cannot analyse and scum can hide anywhere. In veteran games you'll see multiple scumreads and then town will assemble on where they think the lynch goes. So here in terms of vote splitting the other problem with solo voting is that you would appear (if you have no good reason) to remove yourself from being accountable on a larger wagon. You'll often hear that scum hide solo or off the main wagons. http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Voting_patterns I took your vote in the context of your overall play and it seemed that in addition to what you said you just didn't even consider Sulfurus though Tic (or was it noob? one of them) qualified it might not have been much to work with, then the same could be argued for NHM, sparse yet suspicious. Now this is a newbie game, so I am trying to keep that in mind. But hopefully this makes a little more sense why I'm viewing your play the way I am. | ||
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On July 15 2015 11:57 Tictock wrote: I overall agree with your post here (as with most of your posts this game) HtS. However I'm wondering if you could explain what you mean by percentage play here. It could mean two things depending on whether you are talking about mechanics or behaviours. Here I'm talking about behaviours. There are many ways to scumhunt - read progression, reads in the context of the thread, thread sentiment, VCA, tone, meta, types of pushes, etc. For the more methods you are having able to connect someone as scumlike, it's more likely they are scum. For mechanics percentage play, it is very hard to explain so I'll give you an example. Say Sulfurus flipped scum vanilla. KSC is NKed. There is a GF remaining and 9 townies remaining. Say one of those townies is a DT. The DT can green check 10 of the remaining 11. If he greenchecks N2, there's a 90% chance the player he checked is town. Percentage play would dictate you do NOT lynch that greenchecked player UNLESS you have qualitative explanation (behaviour) to explain why that person is scum in which case he MUST be the godfather. Therefore the reason to lynch a greenchecked player must be very strong. (Recent example: Bunnies in NSM10 was a greenchecked godfather who was lynched. She was scum because her reads never changed when the players' behaviours did.) (Yes there's a role called mafia framer btw, but that's outside the scope of this game.) I'm really bad at articulating things sometimes but I hope this makes sense. | ||
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On July 16 2015 05:01 GhandiEAGLE wrote: 1) What made me confident that Scott was town is because he was an experienced mafia player (supposedly; Onegu kind of ballsed up the list). To me, it would seem like an experienced mafia player would want to, in some capacity, play the game. If he were picked as scum, he'd almost definitely be more engaged, but if he got a role like Vanilla Town, I could understand him more or less AFKing out of disinterest. Honestly I can't see someone noticing that they're mafia and just deciding that they'd rather not post than actually try and win the game. Why sign up at all if you don't want to play? Have you played any other games with Scott that you can reasonably make that conclusion about him? Because there are plenty of people that lurk as scum on this forum that have way more experience than he. In fact you'll find in a number of veteran games a number of people will just not play as scum, or try in some difficulty before the team busses them. How are you rationalising that one faction would be more motivated than another, let alone a specific player if you don't have experience with him? Most town are more motivated by solving the puzzle than trying to deceive, though some do the latter pretty well. You also are wanting Grokken to be lynched. Who do you think is his teammate and why? | ||
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I am treating TJ's absence as NAI, and really only taking his gameplay up to the point he went AFK into consideration btw. | ||
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GhandiEAGLE(4): Grokken, Fidei86, Half the Sky, silentwarrior TJHuggins(4): Noobking, MoosyDoosy, WonnaPlay, scott31337 Grokken(1): GhandiEAGLE scott31337 (1): Tictock Not Voting(1): TJHuggins Per tiebreaker rules TJH most recently had more votes, so he gets lynched regardless of warning. | ||
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GhandiEAGLE(5): Grokken, Fidei86, Half the Sky, silentwarrior, WonnaPlay TJHuggins(4): Noobking, MoosyDoosy, scott31337 Grokken(1): GhandiEAGLE scott31337 (1): Tictock Not Voting(1): TJHuggins | ||
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Unless scum n00b or Fidei decided to yolo d1......nah I'm not going down that road yet /tinfoil | ||
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We'll sort this out. | ||
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Starting point VCA Day 1 Sulfurus(4): Half the Sky, Fidei86, Kelsier SC, Noobking <--------likely pure wagon MoosyDoosy(3): Grokken, TJHuggins, Sulfurus NydusHerMain (1): silentwarrior Fidei86(1): NydusHerMain Not Voting(4): WonnaPlay, scott31337, GhandiEAGLE. MoosyDoosy Day 2 <4h to EoD GhandiEAGLE(4): Grokken, Fidei86, Half the Sky, silentwarrior TJHuggins(4): Ticktock, Noobking, MoosyDoosy, WonnaPlay Grokken(1): GhandiEAGLE Not Voting(2): scott31337, TJHuggins Day 2 <40m to EoD GhandiEAGLE(5): Grokken, Fidei86, Half the Sky, silentwarrior, WonnaPlay TJHuggins(4): Noobking, MoosyDoosy, scott31337 Grokken(1): GhandiEAGLE scott31337 (1): Tictock Not Voting(1): TJHuggins[/QUOTE] Day 2 EoD GhandiEAGLE(7): Grokken, Fidei86, Half the Sky, silentwarrior, WonnaPlay ,Ticktock, MoosyDoosy TJHuggins(2): Noobking, scott31337 Grokken(1): GhandiEAGLE Not Voting(1): TJHuggins | ||
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On July 16 2015 07:07 Tictock wrote: TJ is in no way off the hook, and now Scott looks much worse and needs to really step it up if he is town. I kinda get what WP was saying about swapping off TJ to GE, it was kinda my thinking as well. Still you guys probably shouldn't just write off our vote switches. Scott could have tried to distance himself from that vote given that a lot of people were scumreading him. He is experienced enough to know this. But it's realllllyyyy wifomy though and extremely high risk (assuming TJH is scum) given that scum are already down a player and he wouldn't stand a chance if he was the last scummer. I think Scott is actually LESS likely to be scum here from a VCA standpoint. He could be, yes, but less likely. Of course if TJH is town then Scott looks significantly worse. | ||
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On July 16 2015 07:11 Tictock wrote: Oh MD ninja voted did he? MD we need to start hearing about your reads man. You've been a terrible & unhelpful all game long and now it looks like you setup a last minuet vote switch to GE. Actually MD is probably the best lynch tomorrow if he does not explain himself in solid detail. I would never bring him into MyLo or LyLo with the way he's been playing. Scott is in that same boat, so between the 2 of them. TJ at least had decent content D1. Wrong, WonnaPlay hammered. What do you mean by MD set him up? Ninjavoting is shite though. But in your world, if MD is scum, it means he set up his own teammate Sulfurus to be lynched d1. Do you think he was faking his breadcrumbs and Sulfurus wanted to bus him d1? Why would a scum player purposely act scummy (referring to MD here)? If MD and Sulfurus were scum, why would Sulfurus slip like he did d1? He could have just said nothing. And TJ had content but some of it was questionable. | ||
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Starting point VCA Day 1 Sulfurus(4): Half the Sky, Fidei86, Kelsier SC, Noobking <--------likely pure wagon MoosyDoosy(3): Grokken, TJHuggins, Sulfurus NydusHerMain (1): silentwarrior Fidei86(1): NydusHerMain Not Voting(4): WonnaPlay, scott31337, GhandiEAGLE. MoosyDoosy Day 2 <4h to EoD GhandiEAGLE(4): Grokken, Fidei86, Half the Sky, silentwarrior TJHuggins(4): Ticktock, Noobking, MoosyDoosy, WonnaPlay Grokken(1): GhandiEAGLE Not Voting(2): scott31337, TJHuggins Day 2 <40m to EoD GhandiEAGLE(5): Grokken, Fidei86, Half the Sky, silentwarrior, WonnaPlay TJHuggins(4): Noobking, MoosyDoosy, scott31337 Grokken(1): GhandiEAGLE scott31337 (1): Tictock Not Voting(1): TJHuggins[/QUOTE] Day 2 EoD GhandiEAGLE(7): Grokken, Fidei86, Half the Sky, silentwarrior, WonnaPlay ,Ticktock, MoosyDoosy TJHuggins(2): Noobking, scott31337 Grokken(1): GhandiEAGLE Not Voting(1): TJHuggins Alright, give me some time to figure this out.... | ||
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On July 16 2015 07:21 Tictock wrote: He has made several promises to us to give us more , and has failed to do so. The only decent posts he made where the ones where he was talking about D1 VCA stuff, which I think WP or n00b pointed out was an easy post to make as that was the general sentiment at the time. What do you think about MD now HtS? Yeah the VCA post there was pretty easy, as for MD, I'd have to assume right now no change from the vote alone, because his vote had zero bearing on the outcome, it wouldn't help or hurt as either alignment. Ninjavoting sucks so it's not a point in his favour but I'm more concerned about the timing of the vote with anyone because you can trace timing to motivation. | ||
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More likely scum from vote analysis alone: Grokken - AFK vote WannaPlay - hammered him scott31337 - possible distancing if TJH was town Less likely scum Tictock - tried separate wagon not sure Silentwarrior - doublecheck reads d1 TJHuggins - afked without voting. Could be tactical since he did acknowledge that people could get away with one no-vote at EoD1 | ||
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If the vig did not shoot N1, I would shoot either Scott or TJH. Going to think harder. | ||
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On July 16 2015 07:44 MoosyDoosy wrote: I did not ninja vote and I did not change my vote. Please change your list before you raise all hell against me Half the Sky. Go the goddamn voting thread for the rest of you people to confirm this. I did not change my vote off TJHuggins. On July 16 2015 07:00 Onegu wrote: Day 2 Final Vote Count GhandiEAGLE(7): Grokken, Fidei86, Half the Sky, silentwarrior, WonnaPlay ,Ticktock, MoosyDoosy TJHuggins(2): Noobking, scott31337 Grokken(1): GhandiEAGLE Not Voting(1): , TJHuggins Reminder Voting is done here. It is mandatory to vote. Not doing so will result in a warning a second non vote will result in a modkill and action taken against you in the Mafia ban thread. Currently GhandiEAGLE is set to be lynched with 7 votes. Day 1 ends in PLEASE REMEMBER THAT IT IS MANDATORY TO VOTE. Moosy, I pulled my counts STRAIGHT FROM THE MOD. Look at the top of the page. Then the mod made an error. I am sorry, I looked at the top of the page of this thread. | ||
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Assumptions - Sulfurus wagon was a pure wagon. Day 2 final vote corrected - MD stays on TJH Starting point VCA Day 1 Sulfurus(4): Half the Sky, Fidei86, Kelsier SC, Noobking <--------likely pure wagon MoosyDoosy(3): Grokken, TJHuggins, Sulfurus NydusHerMain (1): silentwarrior Fidei86(1): NydusHerMain Not Voting(4): WonnaPlay, scott31337, GhandiEAGLE. MoosyDoosy Day 2 <4h to EoD GhandiEAGLE(4): Grokken, Fidei86, Half the Sky, silentwarrior TJHuggins(4): Ticktock, Noobking, MoosyDoosy, WonnaPlay Grokken(1): GhandiEAGLE Not Voting(2): scott31337, TJHuggins Day 2 <40m to EoD GhandiEAGLE(5): Grokken, Fidei86, Half the Sky, silentwarrior, WonnaPlay TJHuggins(4): Noobking, MoosyDoosy, scott31337 Grokken(1): GhandiEAGLE scott31337 (1): Tictock Not Voting(1): TJHuggins[/QUOTE] Day 2 EoD GhandiEAGLE(6): Grokken, Fidei86, Half the Sky, silentwarrior, WonnaPlay ,Ticktock, TJHuggins(3): Noobking, scott31337, MoosyDoosy Grokken(1): GhandiEAGLE Not Voting(1): TJHuggins | ||
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On July 16 2015 07:30 Half the Sky wrote: Offhand More likely scum from vote analysis alone: Grokken - AFK vote WannaPlay - hammered him - trace reads - is he blending in? scott31337 - possible distancing if TJH was town Less likely scum Tictock - tried separate wagon not sure Silentwarrior - doublecheck reads d1 TJHuggins - afked without voting. Could be tactical since he did acknowledge that people could get away with one no-vote at EoD1 No changes in my points or my blue recommendations. Medic, if there is one, do as you please. I think top towns should be obvious. | ||
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Assumptions - Sulfurus wagon was a pure wagon. Day 2 final vote corrected - MD stays on TJH Starting point VCA Day 1 Sulfurus(4): Half the Sky, Fidei86, Kelsier SC, Noobking <--------likely pure wagon MoosyDoosy(3): Grokken, TJHuggins, Sulfurus NydusHerMain (1): silentwarrior Fidei86(1): NydusHerMain Not Voting(4): WonnaPlay, scott31337, GhandiEAGLE. MoosyDoosy Day 2 <4h to EoD GhandiEAGLE(4): Grokken, Fidei86, Half the Sky, silentwarrior TJHuggins(4): Ticktock, Noobking, MoosyDoosy, WonnaPlay Grokken(1): GhandiEAGLE Not Voting(2): scott31337, TJHuggins Day 2 <40m to EoD GhandiEAGLE(5): Grokken, Fidei86, Half the Sky, silentwarrior, WonnaPlay TJHuggins(4): Noobking, MoosyDoosy, scott31337 Grokken(1): GhandiEAGLE scott31337 (1): Tictock Not Voting(1): TJHuggins[/QUOTE] Day 2 EoD GhandiEAGLE(7): Grokken, Fidei86, Half the Sky, silentwarrior, WonnaPlay ,Ticktock, Noobking, TJHuggins(2): scott31337, MoosyDoosy Grokken(1): GhandiEAGLE Not Voting(1): TJHuggins 7-2-1 vote heavily indicates mislynch. | ||
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On July 16 2015 08:16 TJHuggins wrote: As in - next day phase. Nights are not silent in forum mafia, I know they are silent in video mafia. You should get your thoughts out here if you can do so now. | ||
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Those of you looking into Grokken consider this from D1. | ||
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On July 16 2015 08:22 TJHuggins wrote: This was actually one of the major reasons I put him as #2 on my mafia list on day 1. I thought that it was probable he was caught and a lie and was tying to "talk" his way out of it. You mean #3? I know a point of contention with you was you had Sulfurus as #2....when you didn't previously mention him. But carry on....that's minor. | ||
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Stupid timezones :/ Fidei, I know RL is keeping you busy - yes I talk/play dota with him outside the game so I do have OGI - but if you could lend your voice a bit it would be grand <3 | ||
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On July 16 2015 08:34 Tictock wrote: TJ might be a good person for Medic to visit tonight... Just sayin. Why do you think he's town? | ||
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Spent about an hour writing a lengthy VCA. Bear with me, the wall of text is painful but.... | ||
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Assumptions Sulfurus wagon was a pure wagon given the nature and timing of all the votes. Day 2 final vote corrected - NK on GE Day 1 Sulfurus(4): Half the Sky, Fidei86, Kelsier SC, Noobking MoosyDoosy(3): Grokken, TJHuggins, Sulfurus NydusHerMain (1): silentwarrior Fidei86(1): NydusHerMain Not Voting(4): WonnaPlay, scott31337, GhandiEAGLE. MoosyDoosy From Day 1, it's widely sorted that the Sulfurus wagon is almost certainly town unless either of Fidei or n00bKing yoloed it but there is no such evidence either way to prove that they have either in their reads or votes. On the MD wagon, it is highly unlikely that the entire scumteam hid on the MD wagon. There was reasoning for TJH to be mafia as he voted MD with Sulfurus in second without mentioning the latter and Grokken's post seemed alright (among other things that I hashed in my case). Both silentwarrior and NHM (now Ticktock) solo voted, but they are both unlikely to be scum. I am willing to bet one of them is though - SW has a distancing issue along with potential association issues with Sulfurus (aforementioned) and gave an argument for NHM that he could have for Sulfurus. NHM voted for Fidei very suspiciously before he departed the game. We know GE is confirmed, so he's green. MD is likely green as Sulfurus' vote has made him liable for lynch, prior to n00bking hammering him. More on this later. Scott is a policy lynch for D1 as he's done jack all, and WP is a null read at best largely because of the parroting, though towards the end of D1 he does appear to be slightly more towny. The no vote itself however is NAI. Grokken was pinged out early in the day for changing his read on MD to reflect thread sentiment but remarked it was a mistake. A few people are skeptical of this and another potential issue is that his postcount is low which is generally a scumtell for newbie scum struggling to make reads. His list post otherwise isn't generally terrible though and I had him at null through D1 thinking he'd also AFK voted. Day 2 <4h to EoD GhandiEAGLE(4): Grokken, Fidei86, Half the Sky, silentwarrior TJHuggins(4): Ticktock, Noobking, MoosyDoosy, WonnaPlay Grokken(1): GhandiEAGLE Not Voting(2): scott31337, TJHuggins Grokken votes GE very early in the day before Fidei gets his vote down and scum often in this situation have to decide whether to ML or bus. We don't know TJH's alignment but if TJH is town then he's in the best position to say where he thinks the suspicious votes are. That said I'm going to fill Grokken in red, given this and the d1 post on flipping MD to red. An additional issue is that if he believed that GE was mafia he would have engaged him more as a townie and tried to sort out the alignment. He was pretty quick to put down the vote irregardless of his read on Fidei. Fidei gets his vote off early starting a second train on someone he finds suspicious, which is a sign of town. He does AFK the second half of the cycle, but for OGI reasons I know that is not alignment indicative. n00bKing who hammered Sulfurus with scant time remaining is almost certainly town. Barring further evidence I will also colour him green. I'm also going to colour MD in as green because although he's not fully out of the woods on behaviour alone, it is also highly improbable that if both he and Sulfurus were scum that Sulfurus would have said anything to expose himself. His strategy was breadcrumbed and had 6 votes on him prior to me starting the train which is more than enough for at least 1 scummer to hide. Additionally he's engaging the people that he's suspicious of through n2 so I'm going to say he's town. Tictock is a bit of an enigma with the votes. He votes TJHuggins right at the daypost or soon after it. If TJH is town, this is somewhat problematic using the scum ML/bus decision tree and the predecessor vote. So we have to look at his voteswitches and potential motivations on them - more on that later. Neutral from the start for now. SW votes GE and is the first hammer on GE. The solo vote on NHM was a problem, so we look at his read on GE. The timing is just after midway through d1, 23h left, so no issues here. The read on GE is alright though I had reservations on the top half of his long post. It would also make sense for him here to NOT vote TJH as he's townreading TJH - the read I felt at that time was wrong but did not in itself make him scummy. Additionally the effort is quite much for a newbie scum, so I am going to say a very tentative townlean. I very well could be wrong here but taking into account SW's responses on the solo voting, it could all just be newb play and not scum play. WonnaPlay brings TJH up to four votes. This can be viewed as two ways - as mafia he makes it hard for town to get a decent lynch off, but the same can be said for SW at this point in time. So we have to look at his read basis and the timing. With about 13h left he joined NK in the pressure vote with the caveat he'd switch back to GE if nothing changed. He follows up on this 2h before EoD. Given his d1 into early d2 posting though, I'm seeing a devil-may-care attitude about getting his thoughts out there which indicates town. He's not terribly concerned about how he'll look and mentioned that he'd vote for pressure despite the TJH read not being top. Also as he scumreads Scott, he switches off the wagon that Scott joined. Most likely town, not the strongest read, but that's the overall picture I'm getting. Earnest newbie town. Day 2 <40m to EoD GhandiEAGLE(5): Grokken, Fidei86, Half the Sky, silentwarrior, WonnaPlay TJHuggins(4): Noobking, MoosyDoosy, scott31337 Grokken(1): GhandiEAGLE scott31337 (1): Tictock Not Voting(1): TJHuggins Here's where things start to get interesting. Tictock starts a wagon on Scott. The idea is a good one, but there's just one problem here - lack of followthrough. He cannot engage an AFK Scott, which is okay, but in his posting he should encourage votes on Scott further than the initial vote. He does switch his vote later on after the train fails to gain traction. It does raise the question though whether he tried to look towny after the fact but at the same time he did insist pressure voting Scott. It's a reasonable concept from a town standpoint. Now WP switches his vote from TJH to GE, thus effectively hammering GE. I explained before that he qualified his vote and that GE was at the top of his list so this vote is in line with his reads. No problem here. Day 2 Final GhandiEAGLE(7): Grokken, Fidei86, Half the Sky, silentwarrior, WonnaPlay ,Tictock, Noobking, TJHuggins(2): scott31337, MoosyDoosy Grokken(1): GhandiEAGLE Not Voting(1): TJHuggins 7-2-1 vote heavily indicates mislynch. So we can draw the conclusions that scum generally vote at the very beginning of the train or sometimes at the very end to hide their intentions. Tictock's vote here as he was late to the party (not his fault) is further compounded by his predecessor's suspcious AFK solo vote on Fidei who is almost certainly town and his scum reads aren't original on either of GE or TJH so exercising caution is the way to go in the event he's sheeping poor reads. If TJH is town, the voting further implicates Tictock. (Hence the name in italics.) The hammer vote is problematic only if it is made too close to EoD. WP's vote was made approximately 2 hours prior to then and it made sense with what he was planning to do. WP placing his vote back on TJH would not only have not made sense but keeping the vote too close would have made scum want to manipulate the vote, though here they did not need to. The following are implicated more heavily through VCA (from most to least) - Grokken, Tictock (if TJH is town), scott31337 (hammer vote on TJH prior to departure), silentwarrior (based on D1 vote). Scott could be mafia but per vote analysis he is actually less likely to be mafia. The thing that irks me is that he AFKed his vote without explanation and he's had no prior read on TJHuggins. Given the number of people willing to vote TJH, this is reckless at best as a townie and horribly scummy at worst, given the timing it's not terribly obvious. One thing is pretty clear though, given where the votes were when Scott afked, it's a decent bet that TJH and Scott aren't on the same team. WP's hammer was not made at a critical timing so if he should be for mafia, this wouldn't be it. Additionally at that time TJH could have been countervoted given the number of people willing to vote either, and the read was not incongruent with his prior stance. TJH as he failed to vote, and was hampered due to RL, his no-vote in d2 is NAI but now he's in the best position to tell us who could be suspicious - if he's town. Nightaction Recommendations Detective: 1) Grokken, 2) SW, 3) Tictock, 4) TJHiggins Caveat: I would NOT check Scott if you think there's a vig in this setup - he should be getting shot, so consider any of Grokken, Tictock, SW or if you are unsure of WP, then him, but I am thinking WP might be green here. A check on Scott should have been done d1 and if you haven't done it now you may want to exercise caution if the vig held his shot, which could happen in a newbie game. Vigilante: Scott, Scott, Scott. Vig a scummy lurker who is least likely to help town (if he's town) By far, this person would be Scott. Shoot Scott. No, you should have done that yesterday Medic: I would say any of the trio of Fidei, n00bking, or myself. Use your judgement. | ||
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At some point I'll weigh in on n00b's posts. | ||
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On July 17 2015 03:40 Fidei86 wrote: Okay, I am about and I'm going to go back to the start of the game and see if I can't solve this thing. If you have any specific questions for me, post them now and I'll get to them, I promise. Curious to hear your opinions on: Grokken, Tictock, Silentwarrior, TJHuggins and a world in which WonnaPlay could be scum. | ||
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*looks at Fidei innocently* Well I hope you aren't mafia Fidei... /tinfoil | ||
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I'm going to assume medic save because like I said d1, I was RBed, and KSC was killed and a veteran would cause scum to stack RB/KP. | ||
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On July 17 2015 07:05 rsoultin wrote: There was no mod error. Rsoul best mod! Cheers for helping out Ras <3 And very nicely done Mr. Medic. <3 | ||
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Shortened nickname. First 1-2 games we had together we developed a nickname for her - Rasputin, sometimes I call her that or just Ras, a few call her by her first name, those that know her outside the game. Next bit is for TJHuggins On July 13 2015 06:31 TJHuggins wrote: Figured I would post where I am at before EOD (for obvious reasons). Here's a scum list for me right now in order: 1. MoosyDoosy 2. Sulfuras 3. Grokken Scott, NHM, and silentwarrior are all in a 3rd category for me which includes players that haven't impressed me with their content and have not left any last impact on me. Might be mafia, might be town. I would rather wait until day 2 to deal with this group since it may give them more time to provide content for me to figure out their alignment. Personally, I'd rather kill someone whos acting scummy than someone whos just a crap shoot (actually if this were video mafia I would pressure them and force them to talk but I can't really do that here.) If at EOD 2 I still have nothing on those three, I would advocate to shooting, cop checking, lynching them. I would caution against vig shooting or cop checking any of the lurkers this night because I don't think it will really help progress our scum leads much. A vig shot is better saved on a clearly scummy person (same logic as above) and cop check better on someone whos a bit more active. On July 16 2015 08:22 TJHuggins wrote: This was actually one of the major reasons I put him as #2 on my mafia list on day 1. I thought that it was probable he was caught and a lie and was tying to "talk" his way out of it. On July 16 2015 08:25 TJHuggins wrote: He characterizes it as a "mistake." But what he is describing isn't really what I would call a mistake; it's more like - I'm not sure what to call it- but not a mistake. If what he says is true, his thought appeared to get mumble jumbled just due to the time that passed between the time when he first started typing his post to when he finished. There's nothing he could do to avoid that really. It seems odd to call that a "mistake." So TJHuggins, Sulfurus is gone now obviously. Aside from the information you've been pinged from (the so called critical information) where do you stand on your reads? - Where do you stand on MD and Grokken? - Who are your remaining two scummers and why? | ||
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On July 17 2015 06:17 scott31337 wrote: WonnaPlay would be the opposite, with top scumming me. "1] Scott - Gets defended by some people, without him having done anything. I think one of the people talking for him is atleast scum, defending scum. It would also explain the post Sulfurus made about "unvalid vote" and would even explain the night kill on Kelsier (if what you guys saying is true about veterans killing Kelsier). He isn't even AFK, but because he's afraid from HtS and therefore he is lurking, which raises alarmbells all over the place for me.. 2] Ghandi - too sketchy for my taste. The reason I don't have Ghandi on my #1 is that his list looks pretty decent. I'd agree on most points with him there, but who knows if he turns around again after that.. Also his conclusion on Scott being town is totally unwarranted. If Scott turns out to be scum, then Ghandi is one aswell. 3] TJH - made some weird posts during the end of the day regarding the votes, but I could see him being legitimately frustrated about his idea of different rules. I do think that HtS made some solid points, which I can't ignore since she was spot on in the last day. He's also very quiet since that day.. " [...] Tictock - his last game made me pretty paranoid. He did a quick vote for Wonna (which I don't care for) but there isn't much else that sticks out at me about him. No tunnels either. Null/scumlean Can you explain how the WP read especially from the perspective of a first timer TL newbie, would make him exclusively mafia? And do you have any thoughts about Tictock's read progression? | ||
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On July 17 2015 19:02 Fidei86 wrote: @TickTock I don't want to blow this out of proportion, but however you worded it, that's what you implied. And it stands against you. It's not the only reason, or even the main reason I would vote for you, but I do count it against you. I guess it's for others to decide who they believe (or whether they believe both of us...). Haste to judgement (anyone) is generally a scum tell because scum need to find ways to spin things for their agenda. Namely finding a path to mislynches. The comment for Scott (second sentence) I also don't like because there is a world where a town Scott would say something like that. (If Scott is Mafia its not for that.) Setup speculation is NAI in most cases to begin with but it's not out of the realm of possibilities for a town veteran to say that in a newbie game (where newbies may not grasp mechanics). Even ignoring Scott's meta (which Tictock won't know regardless of alignment) the reaction could also come from any town who is already being scumread widely and this is true for Scott. He could be saying this as mafia but in reality as any alignment. What I can conclude is there is haste to judgement over the number of posts this has happened on Tictock's filter and not just the post on Scott. He fails to consider the potential town realm for any of the people he's commenting on, and a lack of demonstrating remedy - that is more of a problem when you see that over several posts. For example I already know Grokken's been doing a lot of parroting which in of itself has bothered me but newbies do that as either alignment but there are a few ways to split the newb behaviour from the scum behaviour. Tictock isn't doing that over the course of several posts. I believe n00bKing mentioned something earlier that was similar but that is what I see here. | ||
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On July 17 2015 16:21 Tictock wrote: As much as I want to hear from TJ I'm actually pretty down to lynch SW or Scott at the moment. For now SW takes priority for me. ## Vote: silentwarrior What in your mind makes SW a stronger candidate than TJH or Scott? | ||
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(on mobile at the airport....) | ||
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Point is, there are layers of behaviour that already indicate he's mafia and as for engaging him (or updating with new information), as long as he's AFK the previous stances aren't really going to go away. As for the point on scum making some sort of effort, as for how scum behaves, here's the thing, some can lurk if they see townies tunnelled on each other because they are more or less doing the job for him. There definitely have been student games where the townies were so tunnelled on each other that scum were able to coast and stay under the radar regardless of their own activity. Optimal mafia activity is - or should be - fluid which is why I say that - esepcially in newbie game where the average activity is lower anyhow - activity itself isn't necessarily going to be a scum tell, but can supplment his past behaviour and the current state of the game. Also going for TJ's partner doesn't make sense when you don't know TJ's alignment and when you seem to be less convinced of it. (unless that's what you meant by the third paragraph) If you think SW is independently scummy and the most scummy that's one thing OR since there's a flipped mafia if you think there's enough association there to implicate him then that's a separate issue. As for Ghandi saying that TJ is a bad lynch, that also doesn't mean he's right either. He admitted he might not have had the best grip on reads and especially if he wasn't a blue role where he could have had access to more perfect information. His sentiment was honest, but it's not always going to guarantee he's accurate. My VCA was 50/50 on SW, but I need to review the points that n00b also brought up. You do have a point on how "everyone is willing to lynch him" and how that creates some doubt but you also have to look into those sheeping for bad reasons or whether the evidence that is already there is powerful enough. Furthermore, with 10 players in the game, if TJ is scum, and with only one other scummer left, what choice does the remaining scummer have? I don't think making a ballsy play is relevant. Even if TJ were town, there's a crazy amount of people screwing up for that to happen, and the everyone wanting to lynch TJH argument, well it's also still pretty early in the day and others have yet to chime in. This is not to say that exploring pushing SW is wrong but I think you are discounting TJH for the wrong reasons. If there were say 9 players left, 3 of which were unflipped scum and then you have everyone piling onto one player, that point might have more validity. As for TJ's AFKness, I would expect him to show up at some point and explain himself, answer the questions that are in the thread and look for mafia or suggest alternatives if he isn't one of them. TLDR - the scummers need to be sought out separately before you make associations. You can make pre-associative cases for information but that should not be the brunt of the basis for the lynch. Cases can also be built on layers and not just one massive post (that's what I gathered you were implying from your use of the word case) and scum behaviour is WIFOM/fluid - you cant assume esp in a newbie game that a certain alignment will lurk or not (given your comment "needs to make some kina of effort") | ||
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I do not like the timing of the claim but again...this is a newbie game and this train was pretty run away. The first thing to do is wait for a counterclaim. I figured we're in a DT/medic situation but given he claimed with both of his checks right away it sounds believable. Given those he checked I am inclined to believe him. If there is no counterclaim and with the GF dead we lynch SW 100%. End of. If he flips town then TJH is autolynch. | ||
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On July 18 2015 10:36 MoosyDoosy wrote: k we'll kill u then silentwarrior. Thanks for the information. <3 btw it's bad play to say you have "critical information" and not participate. So we're not terrible but your play was more abysmal than GhandiEAGLE's. Your role claim is terrible too and there's a huge thread in TL Mafia that says role claiming is very bad. Should have waited until Day was almost over if you had to reveal that information. You always need to consider timing and circumstances of the claim. Plus this thread has been very slow. If he claimed and enough were afk he'd still get lynched. I'm going to swap votes for now but will keep an eye on the thread. Additionally TJH ninja voting would be justified if he had a red check. Plus scum are a man down already and a NK down already so it'd make no sense for him to trade himself in 1 for 1 if he were scum. In the meantime it's not too early to start working on SW associations in the abscence of a counterclaim. | ||
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Vote is going back on TJH. James enjoy your holiday but I think you are wrong on SW. <3 I also think Tictock is wrong on Scott. The VCA exonerates Scott as he afk voted and pre-hammered a Mafia assuming TJH flips red. The vote was highly contested at the time Scott voted. WonnaPlay hammered after setting himself up to vote TJH and if both are scum could have been communicated in the scum qt. And even I said even if SW isn't making great posts, newbie scum rarely if ever put in the amount of effort that he has. If SW isn't scum, Wonna is the final one. Just my opinion. | ||
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/tinfoil (Yes Fidei's name is actually James...I play Dota too much with him. <3 Maybe you can join us too Grokken if you don't mind 3k scrubs )Teams being stacked is very possible. Teams are RNGed by most hosts. Skill is irrelevant. | ||
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Yes I saved n00b Night 2. *hugs n00b* I also dispute being MVP but I appreciate the sentiment. Theres a reason scum aimed noob n2 he was more the threat. I am of the mentality Mafia is a team game regardless of alignment and there was good play collectively. And I knew if TJH was scum look at the votes n2...Scott afk voted TJH when it was contested so there was no way Scott was scum even though he lurked like crazy this game. I had a feeling coaches were a bit underused this game....there were a lot basic questions being asked in game and I am just thinking "why aren't these people asking their coaches"... | ||
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Night 1 - save Fidei86 Night 2 - save noob - he was saved Grokken's Night 1 - check MD - green Night 2 - check Tictock - green Game ended D3 | ||
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