Damdred OK this is going to be quick. I cannot read the guy town because he almost didn't do any scumhunting. His only analysis post is this one: + Show Spoiler +
On June 14 2015 12:15 Damdred wrote: Damdreds Late night Reads List:
Firstly i'm going to take out the wagons that ended up with 0 votes to start with, and also the scratched people presently. I'll dedicate a post later to talking about vote changes (maybe in this post on some people) to determine some alignments if I can.
First thing I do is color in Geript with a bold and a green since hes flipped to the thread.
Secondly since im not confirmed to the thread but to myself (go me) i'm putting myself as green. I'd rather not have to right out a town case currently for myself so just trust me for now.
Two easiest town reads are now colored in green for me.
Batsnacks I've covered pretty extensively in my earlier filter, if you want the longer case its in my filter go read it a bit. But to add on a bit, Bats made a decent point and pushed it. Thought he found a slip and pushed it, he led the lynch on Geript even fi he flipped town. Scum bats is really back seat he does try to cause confusion. However at this end of day he was really useful he was calm and acted really towny with how he went about the lynch. This guy might be the most town I've ever seen Bats be before, if he did this as scum i'm pretty impressed.
Trfel, is town also. Made some excellent points on Rel, but ended up sheeping Batsnacks around the same time I did. The posts that Trfel did make were some of the longer cases I thought were pretty good and factually sound. Though some people might disagree with them It hought they were really good and showed a clear understanding of what was going on. Also Trfel knows my kryptonite somewhat and how to abuse me in a thread without seeming scummy for it and chose to try to work with me and give me time instead of coming down hard on me. Its also partially a tone read and how the involvement in the thread is going. i'm pretty confident that Trfel is town here.
Ruxxar is one of my scum leans currently. I won't take credit for the initial find of the post where he switched votes from bats to Geript. (Wave gets credit for pointing it out) He shows very little consistency with how his reads change and how he approaches the thread, for example when bats makes his push on Geript he showed very little suspicion for someone that was hard scum reading Bats and thought that he was the best lynch in the entire game. Also he gave kickstart a town lean for almost no reason when he was suspicious of him before. He also has expanded his filter with a lot of talk about speculation and about claims and how to handl blues etc. Overall I think hes decently scummy and should be lookd at harder.
WaveofShadow is another decent town lean currently. He shows genuine interest in figuring out peoples alignments, he pushes on people and is searching to find scum when he is here. One of the negatives I have is that sometimes he feels a little passive in the way that he does things at the same time. I know for instance he asked me several questions that I just didn't answer at the time and still haven't answered (I believe) and even though I've been in the thread with him he just hasn't cared. So he worries me a little bit but i'm generally paranoid of him also, plus he soft pushed geript a little bit.
Moosy I think is town, I would look at him more later, and its mostly just a gut feeling. He feels really honest to me and just confused at points. I think hes town.
Tone read on scott, and his postings just feel like his towny self. Good direction I feel like at points.
I am going to end this here for now, I don't have the attention span to go through everything. I'll try to finish reads before the morning on the others. I'm still leaning scum on Rels and kickstarts activity is worrying and lack of real content compared to his other games.
And while there is nothing in here scummy, there is only one mafia accusation that I partially disagree with. It's true that I don't like ruxxar's posts about blues, and his vote could be opportunistic. To me that's not enough to make him mafia, especially when several people's vote could be considered opportunistic.
Nevertheless I can not read this guy mafia either because his posts in general seem genuine. In particular, I loved this post:
On June 14 2015 09:09 Damdred wrote: Umm Idk why Geript as confirmed town would have better reads than say... anyone left alive?
Like I can understand parssing what Geript said see who voted him why (good catch wave) but I don't think,scum,bats leads the lynch onto Geript,like this. Nor do I think we should really debate if the big should shoot him or not
On June 16 2015 07:16 WaveofShadow wrote: What seems genuine or 'observation-y' about that post you highlighted Rels? I just see a post that anyone with common sense and experience would post, of either alignment.
It seems genuine to me 'cause a lot of people were sucking noobking's dick when he died. In my mind it's easy for mafia to say how great a town dead player was, to gain town cred. You're right it's not a super town tell. That's why damdred is null for me actually.
On June 16 2015 07:16 batsnacks wrote: I don't know why Rels is going through the motions with this actually. He responded to what was brought against him his time would be better spent playing the game again instead of going through these tedious null reads.
The serious answer ? Cause I promised to, so I wanna finish. I agree the last 2 analysis and the one coming are super lackluster.
But it's not useless to me. Rereding your, damdred's and oat's filters put some things in my memory. I just can't explain them nor have I good reads on you 3 for the time being.
Oatsmaster OK I'm super tired so this one is going to be shit. I think he's town cause I like how he questions every post he sees that is weird in his mind. And I have the feeling reading his filters that I saw his train of thought in front of me. That's it. Conclusion: Town lean
OK I learned something today. Yeah for newbie game.
First, I had fun reading people attacks on me and try to see which one were well spirited and which one felt forced. Second, I learned things rereading the game, and I should keep doing that. Third, I feel my cases on my hard scums reflect exactly what I have in mind. But my cases on my town leans were almost useless to be nice, and my cases on my null reads were useless. I finished these cases 'cause I promised, but in the future I will only do that for suspicious people.
So. At the end of the day, I think my case on Kickstart was the strongest. I also think that the strongest point on this case is that he jumped on the train to lynch me so opportunistically that it screams scum. My train was super easy to hop on at the time, so I feel people doing so too easily are really suspicious; so Kickstart is my vote for the moment.
On June 16 2015 07:11 Damdred wrote: Why is bring wrong a negative exactly?
It doesn't by itself. I just don't want to forget that the only cases you made were wrong. Doesn't make you mafia.
Don you think,generally town is usually more often wrong than scum?
I think it's easy for mafia to make good looking cases on townie, starting from a simple contradiction and blowing it out of proportion.
Itsactually much,much harder as mafia to,contribute in the same way as town. I read an amazing post at one point that explained why being scum is difficult. Its much more psychologically draining than most people think.
Dunno about forum mafia, but I enjoy being werewolf IRL. Maybe that's different in forum games where you have to keep your lies in your mind for several days in a row.
On June 16 2015 11:08 Kickstart wrote: People are just desperate to get a lynch on me, to the point they are making stuff up. I never promised anything, people saying I did is a lie. [...]
You actually did. Please read my case on you.
On June 15 2015 23:19 Rels wrote: Kickstart I think the guy is mafia for these reasons: 1. Lots of fluff and not a lot of analysis. I didn't believe that before rerading his filter but that is true: there is almost no analysis in it. 2. This case is super forced 4 hours into the game. + Show Spoiler +
On June 12 2015 11:16 Kickstart wrote: Here's something of a mini-case on why I am scum reading ruXxar atm.
First several posts he seems quite concerned about the scum team! Why is this. This doesn't seem to be normal new town player concerns to me.
On June 12 2015 07:26 ruXxar wrote: I actually believe in the right of individual freedom, so as long as the mafia just stick to themselves and don't hurt anyone, I don't mind having them around .
*slaps himself*
No, stop daydreaming ruxx!
Then there was his answering question slip which has been the topic of much debate. It is really weird because I said I don't like people answering questions directed at others, Trfel asks me why, and then ruxx answers -______-. I think a townie would read that and be wary of answering because they see me saying that answering for others is a bad thing. My take on it is that ruxx maybe saw an easy opportunity to seem helpful and didn't even pay attention to the interaction going on there.
On June 12 2015 07:18 Kickstart wrote: A friendly PSA: I don't like lurkers or liers or people who answer questions directed at other people.
Why don't you like it when people answer questions directed at others?
Usually you want to hear the reasoning of the person you're asking.
If someone answers the question before him, you potentially open up for someone else to make a logical conclusion beforehand, and then the guy the question was directed at get an easy bandwagon onto that guys conclusions.
At least that is what I think.
Another post which doesn't seem like a town mindset at all to me. Why would town try to defend lying. This seems like scum saying "lying is ok" but trying to make it seem like something town just does all the time too, it isn't, and this is scum mindset imo.
On June 12 2015 07:18 Kickstart wrote: A friendly PSA: I don't like lurkers or liers or people who answer questions directed at other people.
Why don't you like liars? Lying is a powerful tool that when used in the right situation can greatly benefit one's interests. This goes for both sides. Deception is not a thing reserved only for mafia.
What you meant to say is that you don't like liars that have conflicting interests from you.
And yet another on the lying thing that I just don't see a townie making. This just stinks of scum mindset to me again.
On June 12 2015 07:18 Kickstart wrote: A friendly PSA: I don't like lurkers or liers or people who answer questions directed at other people.
Why don't you like it when people answer questions directed at others?
Usually you want to hear the reasoning of the person you're asking.
If someone answers the question before him, you potentially open up for someone else to make a logical conclusion beforehand, and then the guy the question was directed at get an easy bandwagon onto that guys conclusions.
At least that is what I think.
........
The "at least that is what I think" pushes it over the top. I could see it as a joke, but then there's no reason to include the last sentence. It's either inherently contradictory or unnecessarily cautious.
Scum lean.
What I meant by the last sentence was that that was my number one assumption of why he made that statement. I won't pretend to be a mind reader, but I find it strange that he throws out unsubstantiated claims like that.
So far kickstart is a scumlean for me.
Wait....
So you are serious about your explanation for not answering a question directed at someone else, because it helps them answer the question if they are scum. But in saying this, you answered a question directed at someone else, your scum read?
This explanation is going to be good.
Yes my answer was serious.
I see now how that actually denied us information from kick start. It was a mistake on my part to actually answer that question.
Can you please clarify, why are you scumreading Kickstart?
I didn't like his statement about not liking liars.
This whole game is based on the concept of deception. If you don't like that aspect of the game, why are you here? You might claim that you like hunting lying mafia, But it's not a given beforehand what role you will be, so that doesn't make sense either.
I have no prior info about any of the players here, so he might have some personal conviction for why he said that, but to me it didn't seem like a genuine well thought through statement.
And here is a ton of WIFOM that is literally useless to town. Ended with a pointless question to me. Again to me it is just obvious why as town you don't like people to lie, I even explained a few times what I meant by the statement, so he is either not reading or pressing a nonsensical point.
On June 12 2015 07:18 Kickstart wrote: A friendly PSA: I don't like lurkers or liers or people who answer questions directed at other people.
Why don't you like it when people answer questions directed at others?
Usually you want to hear the reasoning of the person you're asking.
If someone answers the question before him, you potentially open up for someone else to make a logical conclusion beforehand, and then the guy the question was directed at get an easy bandwagon onto that guys conclusions.
At least that is what I think.
RuXxar provided a reasonable explanation for why it is bad to answer questions directed at other people. However, this explanation was an answer to my question directed at Kickstart. In this very post, he's doing why he says that this is bad.
He's confident enough to ignore any potential purpose that I had for this question, confident enough in Kickstart's alignment that he doesn't want to hear Kickstart's answer, but not confident enough to leave the post without stating that this is what he thinks, implying that he could be wrong.
2. The person he answered a question for is now his scumread + Show Spoiler +
On June 12 2015 07:18 Kickstart wrote: A friendly PSA: I don't like lurkers or liers or people who answer questions directed at other people.
Why don't you like it when people answer questions directed at others?
Usually you want to hear the reasoning of the person you're asking.
If someone answers the question before him, you potentially open up for someone else to make a logical conclusion beforehand, and then the guy the question was directed at get an easy bandwagon onto that guys conclusions.
At least that is what I think.
........
The "at least that is what I think" pushes it over the top. I could see it as a joke, but then there's no reason to include the last sentence. It's either inherently contradictory or unnecessarily cautious.
Scum lean.
What I meant by the last sentence was that that was my number one assumption of why he made that statement. I won't pretend to be a mind reader, but I find it strange that he throws out unsubstantiated claims like that.
So far kickstart is a scumlean for me.
When he is questioned, ruxXar throws out a scum lean. However, he does this on Kickstart, the same player he just answered a question for.
Imagine that ruXxar is town. He sees Kickstart make a post, but doesn't try to look into his alignment. Then he sees me (Trfel) ask a question to Kickstart about that post, then immediately answers the question without stopping to realize that this is the same behavior criticized in his explanation (and he realizes that his play hurt town here). Only after answering my question to Kickstart does he bother to actually think about Kickstart's alignment.
I can't see this coming from a town mindset, from someone who is actually interested in determining people's alignments.
Furthermore, he hasn't made any alignment-related comments about anyone in the game other than Kickstart.
RuXxar is being contradictory, cautious, and is showing a mindset that isn't towny at all. He's not interested in thinking about people's alignments.
I beg to differ.
I've been leading an open and active discussion, answering and asking questions. If I was scum I would be very careful not to expose myself like that. I already admitted that I missed the logical inconsistency in answering kick starts question.
If I had been mafia then I would have been way more careful in considering my response and not make such an obvious error.
The only one that has made any statements that I don't understand / agree with so far is kick start. He's also dodged my question so far.
Liers means if you say you are going to do something but don't when it comes to forum mafia. Also good job breaking one of my rules,
He only explained what it means, not why he said it.
So @ kickstart.
Please explain why you don't like liars.
On its own this post isn't too bad but coupled with his general tone I think this just adds to it. A tell that a lot of new scum players fall for is proclaiming their inexperience. He does this a lot in his earlier posts in the way of justifying various things because of not knowing the game or the players, and in this post he does it again when it is needless imo. Saying I agree would have sufficed but for some reason he feels the need to proclaim his inexperience, something that everyone in the game knows.
On June 12 2015 08:24 ruXxar wrote: I'm not voting on anyone yet, it's way too early for that.
I'm gathering information to base my reads upon. I can only evaluate what I've read so far.
Putting pressure on people is also a good thing, not necessarily because you believe they are scum, but to see how they react in tense situations.
You're right, putting pressure on people can be a good thing, to see how they react.
That's why you're wrong, it is not too early to vote.
I agree.
As said, it's my first time playing mafia and I haven't been in many situations lately where i have to formulate sharp logical arguments.
I am usually forgiving to players I don't know or newer players, but to me there are so many things that seem scummy to me that I can't do that in ruXxars case.
Thoughts?
3. Posted a lot day 1 and left a good impression on everyone, then left. Came back multiple times with an excuse but didn't a whole lot and left again. Even worse, promised something and never did it. + Show Spoiler +
First time he came, he promised an analysis of bats filter that never came.
On June 13 2015 05:37 Kickstart wrote: Damn I went back to sleep and slept forever. 2 replacements already whata game. Still think ruXxar is slightly scummy but several people think he isn't so that's that. Sulfuris did come in and logic up his posts but that still leaves me baffled about his initial vote. If he is so concerned with the logic of his arguments and reads then how the hell did he make that post with that mindset. Seems like he did something scummy then tried to logic his way out. Seems the idea of a bats lynch is gathering steam. I actually thought his posting was weird but I have only played with him in 1 other game to go off of. I'll reread his filter at some point before EoD and see if I still get that impression.
On June 15 2015 07:17 Kickstart wrote: First of all I want to apologize for my lack of activity. It isn't fair to everyone that I am usually quite active and in this game I neglected to play for some time. I am town though. Secondly this end of cycle times is getting really stupid, please set a time and stick to it. I thought it was 21:00 originally then it was 1 hour earlier and now its 18:00.
Originally was suspicious mainly of ruxx and sulf. Sulf still scummy ruxx not so much. Hate to just come in and agree with thread sentiment but rels is scummy as well. Tbh I just skimmed through most of the EoD and the night stuff though.
4. This post seems forced to me too. It's about how he doesn't like noobking's posting. Not sure about that one though. + Show Spoiler +
On June 12 2015 16:38 Kickstart wrote: Eh got some beauty sleep so I'm a bit calmer, lets see how long that lasts. Don't like n00bKing's posting in general. First game here, very lectury. Goes out of his way to tell people not to post fluff, yet posts nothing in the way of reads.
@king Who are you suspicious of at the moment, who do you think could be scum?
5. His progression of his read on me is so bad. I think at least one of the people pushing me is doing so because I'm an easy mislynch. And I think kickstart is the most opportunistic person that came into my train. Here is his train of thought regarding me. Please read at least the last quote in the spoiler, it's hilarious as hell. + Show Spoiler +
On June 12 2015 16:53 Kickstart wrote: Either Rels is second smartest person in here behind me or he is trying real hard to pocket me D:. Everything hes posted has been in line with my thinking as well.
On June 13 2015 07:35 Kickstart wrote: Wheres does scotts 'wouldn't lynch rels' read come from. U wot. Gosh i rly dont like list posts with no reasoning in them. Are me and rels suspicious to you but not enough to not vote and that is why we aren't in your 'like' list or what.
On June 15 2015 07:17 Kickstart wrote: First of all I want to apologize for my lack of activity. It isn't fair to everyone that I am usually quite active and in this game I neglected to play for some time. I am town though. Secondly this end of cycle times is getting really stupid, please set a time and stick to it. I thought it was 21:00 originally then it was 1 hour earlier and now its 18:00.
Originally was suspicious mainly of ruxx and sulf. Sulf still scummy ruxx not so much. Hate to just come in and agree with thread sentiment but rels is scummy as well. Tbh I just skimmed through most of the EoD and the night stuff though.
On June 15 2015 07:18 Kickstart wrote: meant to go ahead and vote.
##Vote Rels
On June 15 2015 07:34 Kickstart wrote: Yeah I don't agree with everything in noobs large post but I tend to agree that the most likely scum trio to me atm is sulf, ruxx, rels. And if one of them flips red it makes the other 2 look even scummier.
On June 15 2015 07:35 Kickstart wrote: Maybe me being suspicious of all of them early day 1 will buy me some town cred???? I need some after being afk so long.
The strongest point of this case to me is the last one. Here is what happened: 1 - you were scumreading ruxx and Sulfu 2 - you jumped on my train and your only reason for doing so was:
On June 15 2015 07:17 Kickstart wrote: First of all I want to apologize for my lack of activity. It isn't fair to everyone that I am usually quite active and in this game I neglected to play for some time. I am town though. Secondly this end of cycle times is getting really stupid, please set a time and stick to it. I thought it was 21:00 originally then it was 1 hour earlier and now its 18:00.
Originally was suspicious mainly of ruxx and sulf. Sulf still scummy ruxx not so much. Hate to just come in and agree with thread sentiment but rels is scummy as well. Tbh I just skimmed through most of the EoD and the night stuff though.
3 - Then not long ago you came back to the thread and posted this:
On June 16 2015 08:07 Kickstart wrote: Ill be a misslynch guys, if you are that concerned wait for a cop check or something. Should just lynch sulfurus like you were supposed to day 1.
##Unvote ##Vote Sulfuras
Really. It is your fucking first post after coming back. You obviously read the thread 'cause you unvoted me. But you didn't bother respond to the case or explain your thought process.
Yeah I agree AFK != scum. But since his post saying he came back to the thread:
On June 16 2015 08:07 Kickstart wrote: Ill be a misslynch guys, if you are that concerned wait for a cop check or something. Should just lynch sulfurus like you were supposed to day 1.
##Unvote ##Vote Sulfuras
And his last post of the day:
On June 16 2015 14:37 Kickstart wrote: I tend to agree with your reads. Ive been suspicious of ruxx and sulf from the start and theyve not done much to change that. Like I said ruxxars posting is a bit odd so I'm not entirely sure but I would say they are my strongest scum reads. I think Oats play has been suspicious for reasons I pointed out already. I pointed it now but I also pointed it out way early in Day1 because he was doing it then too. Kept asking everyone "Can we just lynch _______?" which I think is weird because it seems like he has had no concern over who the vote is on, ever. Rels was scummy but then he wrote a dissertation so he seems alright for now. Of the veterans I would only be willing to lynch Oats probably, I think we got at least 2 scum in the new players :D. After sulfurus then ruxxar I would have to look at scotts and moosy's filters. Off the top of my head I am more suspicious of scott but that is probably just because he has scum read me and moosy hasnt so I probably need to take a closer look at them both to see how they stand on reads apart from me.
That said it's late and I'm going to sleep~
He posted 9 posts in 6 hours. If he wanted he had the time to explain his thought process, and didn't. It's not like he just posted one post and left. He posted things over 6 hours and didn't explain shit or scumhunt or analyze shit.
Really. His reason for voting me was:
On June 15 2015 07:17 Kickstart wrote: [...] Hate to just come in and agree with thread sentiment but rels is scummy as well. Tbh I just skimmed through most of the EoD and the night stuff though.
And his reason for unvoting me was, 6 hours after the unvote:
On June 16 2015 14:37 Kickstart wrote: [...] Rels was scummy but then he wrote a dissertation so he seems alright for now. [...]
I was writing this answer, then realized I got a bit long-winded. Spoilered for those who aren't interested. + Show Spoiler [Answer to Rels] +
Haha, well first, I'm in the US.... Should probably go to bed sometime myself XD
Anyway, I'm somewhat suspicious of scott31337 myself.
As to your reasons for scott31337 and MoosyDoosy being scum, I disagree. First, despite n00bKing being a flipped town, and their statement that they liked his analysis, that doesn't mean they have to follow it exactly. N00bKing's post was based on a faulty premise, that our two main wagons some time before the Day 1 lynch contained one scum, therefore Sulfurus was scum. The real contribution that n00bKing provided was the unflipped association case, which while good, is still an unflipped association case and therefore is unreliable. In the same way, scumreading MoosyDoosy and scott31337 for this reason suffers from unflipped association (relies on Sulfurus being mafia). If there's something scummy about these votes, this isn't why.
Furthermore, mafia simply won't be able to get away with choosing their targets based on a dead townie's post, as doing so is terrible and ignores a ton of information that's filled the thread since then. For example, you've started looking a ton more townie since n00bKing made this post. However, Sulfurus doesn't seem likely to put up a lot of resistance to being lynched due to his inactivity. So there is mafia motivation to lynch someone else and then Sulfurus later, though this wouldn't be based on n00bKing's post.
Alright TY. It's true that it is super weak. I agree that them utilizing noobking's post is NAI at best. But what I'm suspicious of is that they both looked like they wanted to jump on my wagon at any cost at the start of the day.
I also made a case on scott, but for now KS is scummier. I'll update my scott case day 3 to see if I still want to lynch him or no.
On June 17 2015 01:28 batsnacks wrote: It's my birthday so... Lynch ruxxar/sulf. Maybe kick if you need to but you better have better reasons then 'afk.' I'll try to check in before deadline.
Happy birthday Yesterday you quoted my case on kickstart, in which there is reason other that just afk. Trfek also made a super good case.
EPT
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