Witchcraft Mini Mafia III

On June 08 2015 08:30 wherebugsgo wrote:


refusing to divulge relevant information sure is!

identity is a large part of mafia.

On June 08 2015 08:35 LightningStrike wrote:
So Breshke any thoughts on Wherebugsgo right now?

On June 08 2015 08:36 wherebugsgo wrote:


I think they would be more likely to reveal themselves as town.

Granted, a smurf does not have to reveal themselves to be useful to town. I have smurfed myself, and the reason I do it is often quite simple-most people don't ask, and those who do can be placated by providing opinions and good reads. I have never had the luxury of rolling scum while smurfing, but if I ever did I do not doubt it would be one of the easiest ways to achieve victory.

It is plainly obvious why smurfing is far more advantageous to the individual player than the team as a whole. The town only benefits if the player who is smurfing is a high caliber town player, rolls town, and escapes getting shot night 1 due to being a smurf. Otherwise, town stands to gain nothing from a mediocre townie or a bad townie smurfing other than a lack of insight into the player's behaviour.

You should always hold smurfs to a higher standard because if they refuse to reveal their identity then you have no background to be working with. You have no expectation of their play, and an ordinarily good townie has rolled scum on a smurf you have no way of knowing.

On June 08 2015 08:49 LightningStrike wrote:

I kinda dislike his pressure on FreezingFoot since FreezingFoot could be a smurf and him calling him out so early just seems like it's a preplanned motion from him regardless of his alignment so null.

On June 08 2015 08:52 wherebugsgo wrote:


No it isn't. Read what I said again. The player does not necessarily have to reveal themselves. They just have to prove they can contribute. Asking that of scum will result in one or more of a.) More questions, b.) Nothing, c.) A bunch of filler nonsense, or d.) A response that takes a lot of effort.

Asking a townie will often give us something useful. It may be the actual behaviour in the response itself (and so far actually his response has been a bit useful to me in getting a read on him) and it may be the subsequent posts as we get reads/thoughts on the game/thought process from the player.

a.), b.) and c.) are all great, those types of responses would warrant more votes. d.) almost never happens because scum on this forum suck. But if it did, it would take a good amount of time for it to come out and it would probably be incredibly underwhelming from a scum.



What?? Mafia are always hunting roles.

I also don't understand, is this supposed to be separate from the previous part of the post? Are you saying that the people who are voted to get roles choose investigative ones?

On June 08 2015 08:56 LightningStrike wrote:

I seems preplanned so it's null on that part but it did generate discussion although it's early in the game and not much going on outside the FreezingFoot stuff. I mean sure I would like to know his aka to do a meta read later on but the reason for people to smurf is they want to hide their identity so we can't use meta on them.

On June 08 2015 09:53 FreezingFoot wrote:
Dude, you are scum reading me for something that makes no one scum. I want to understand your thought process before forming a solid read on you. I am NOT answering a question YOU were supposed to clarify.

On June 08 2015 09:03 wherebugsgo wrote:


No you don't, because you repeatedly have shown an inability to read what I am saying.

I have said twice now that a smurf DOES NOT HAVE TO REVEAL THEMSELVES to satisfy my line of questioning.

I simply want more out of this particular player. The responses I have received so far have been relatively lukewarm at best. However, I'm going to step it up a bit further.



So did I, you just failed to read where I said it. Twice. Now three times, actually, and if you count this now, four.



Nope. You're not reading. Keep this up and I'm going to just ignore you.



Nope. I am saying you do not understand because, well...you don't.

Let me clarify for you what has happened so far, and what is now worth discussing.



He doesn't like my opening. Sign #1 he doesn't like me.

Cool.

Let's skip over his direct response to my vote, because it was useless.

Third post following my vote:



What I exhibited is a "scum behaviour" according to Freezingfoot. He didn't like my original post, and he thinks I am not trying to build original reads. He claims I don't care about his alignment.

Fourth post:



Implicitly calling my approach scum approach. But not directly doing it.

If Freezingfoot thinks my approach is so scummy, in four straight posts....

Why doesn't he vote me? If he tries to get me killed directly that would be one thing, but he's just weakly throwing back mud at me.

On June 08 2015 10:21 FreezingFoot wrote:


I saw it
What about it?

See, this is what I'm looking at when I see bugs post:

Who is scum? FreezingFoot
Why he could be scum? Because he is not revealing his identity when he is getting voted.
Why not revealing his identity when up to the lynch is a mafia behaviour? (silence)

On June 08 2015 11:28 Kickstart wrote:


Breshke plz explain. You've posited and answered questions but you've not explained this vote imo.

On June 08 2015 08:46 wherebugsgo wrote:


you apparently don't understand.

It is in town's benefit to know his identity. If he refuses while taking votes that's anti-town.

So just vote him and see what he does. If he doesn't give town anything what use is he alive? His contribution to this conversation has been a gif in response to my quote post. It is early in the day, but this is a good chance to see how our smurf wants to play the game.

On June 08 2015 09:53 FreezingFoot wrote:
Dude, you are scum reading me for something that makes no one scum. I want to understand your thought process before forming a solid read on you. I am NOT answering a question YOU were supposed to clarify.

On June 08 2015 13:29 Kickstart wrote:
What is most concerning to me at the moment in this situation is that bugs seems genuinely concerned, but Breshke's vote is just piggybacking off of everything bugs is saying. This irks me because when asked to explain Breshke just quotes bugs again. I specifically asked for the vote with no explanation in the post to be explained and all I got was a quote from what someone else had said.
Quite a convenient way to later say that "Oh I just thought that Bugses case was good thats why I voted, clearly since bugs pushed it though bugs is more likely to be scum than me who just thought the point was good". Especially since the only real reason to have a vote parked on foot at the moment is for pressure, but if your intent was to pressure you wouldn't just echo everything another player has said without asking the person you are trying to pressure any questions. Seems quite scummy to me, and since I asked for an explanation but didn't get a satisfactory one in my opinion:

##Unvote
##Vote Breshke

On June 08 2015 16:16 wherebugsgo wrote:
I have like 5 people right now on my list I would consider nearly 100% town

anyone else agree with me?

On June 08 2015 18:49 Onegu wrote:



Im here and I am always underwhelming.

On June 09 2015 11:29 Bill Murray wrote:

ad hominem is, as is misrepresentation, flailing, scumandeering/the way he is spotlighting this game, and my meta on him

he is much nicer as town, so while you may say "this is a policy lynch, BM", it isn't just a policy lynch

he is very likely scum

On June 09 2015 12:05 Bill Murray wrote:
If you look into the wording WBG is using it's as if "useful" to him is who will push forth his agenda

If you're not buddying him, and especially those who are voting him, are getting negative points from him/he's flinging shit/flailing at them

He is a part of a generation of players that were run off from here; he is a condescending player, especially as scum

this is his scum game 110%

On June 09 2015 12:12 Bill Murray wrote:

from my experience with WBG he tends to lurk a lot more as town, and will pop up to be helpful. He isn't condescending in the least. This is sheer flailing and something that I haven't seen from him before. He's saying I don't see how he acts as scum.. well him acting like a crybaby is new to me, so that must be his scum meta

my case on him is more deductive reasoning and seeing if something would stick than anything. Granted, a page ago, when he posted what he did, it has me kind of wanting to come off my vote... but the feeling that he is likely scum is just too much.

I don't want to let someone like this get away with this. He can act condescending all he wants, and say "when have you ever caught me as scum", but this guy never roles scum here for me to have a meta on.

TL;DR I know his town meta; and this isn't it

On June 09 2015 12:18 Kickstart wrote:
Yeh the spreadsheet is alright but paying attention to his top town reads and top scum reads I don't really agree. Mainly he has 99% towned people that I don't particularly agree with, but he does have a tendency to just go "95% sure they are town" :/, at least he has in this game.

On June 09 2015 13:42 Tubesock wrote:
##Vote: wherebugsgo

1. Chezinu rules. I worship the brown. LightningStrike basically same rule.
2. Flat wrong on the smurf issue and continues to bring it up. Town points to the person who understands the massive town advantage to having FreezingFoot be someone like townHolyflare. Bugs is NK1 hunting. Why would he ask who he should suck up to and who sucks?
3. Pretty often tunnelled towns help dig their own grave. If can't out him, easy mlynch.
4. After a couple people town Foot (sorry reading FF makes me think of Fecalfeast) he posts "oooh look I have 5 townreads! I'm just like YOU GUYS!"
5. Bill Mother Fucking Murray.

On June 09 2015 13:52 yamato77 wrote:

Lol you must be mafia.

On June 09 2015 12:01 Breshke wrote:
##Vote Onegu

You said yourself you didn't claim VT

On June 09 2015 13:54 Tubesock wrote:


I don't know if LS is town or not. No real idea. I wasn't playing but I read his last couple games while they were playing and I feel he's much more obvious D2/3.

2. I don't really understand your comment. His scummates won't know anybetter than him?

3. FreezingFoot was the tunneled town, but he didn't play into it. He responded really well. And Bugs switched to LS as soon as he saw it wasn't going to gain traction.

4. I think Foot is town.

On June 09 2015 13:59 FreezingFoot wrote:
##Unvote
##Vote:Shockey

I've being extremely busy today. Just got home.

Did a quick skim in the thread. I've read bugs spread sheet and his reads felt genuine (with the exception of Breshke), reevaluating most of them accordingly to thread progression + I'm not willing to lynch the biggest filter day1 + him being upset with lack of activity feels true (I don't think scum would fuck off like he did when he is the main wagon). He may still be scum but this is enough to let him live another day. We already have a lot of information from him and we can deal with him later, if that is the case. I prefer to have him around day2 than any other scummy person who has few to almost no post at all.

On June 09 2015 14:16 Tubesock wrote:


1. I don't think he's mafia either though? And Chezinu literally did this in his champions game against his mafia mate.

2. I don't mean he's nightkill hunting by asking what people think would be the best town. I think it's what's on his mind. His push on Foot has three benefits to him if he is mafia. 1. it makes him appear town (pushing thread/conversation, and getting information), if he drives hard into someone often time these people fold and look scummy for a mlynch, outs the smurf he can decide with more accurate information who to kill AND this will likely generate more jubjubing from town deciding if the smurf lied or not.

He sees the push on Foot doesn't have traction and people are towning him, so he posts "oh I have 5 town reads! this was totes productive! I'm so TOWN!" Then knows that he can't just kill a lurker, he goes after LS who is well LS.

I don't know how you guys write notes, but uh I don't use sentences I use code words to remind me. Otherwise I would run out. He made it all pretty and nice to read for us. bleh

Also, I don't like martyrs.

On June 09 2015 14:53 FreezingFoot wrote:
Onegu is much more a coin flip than anything. He should definetely not be lynched today.
I think LS is the same. He always is this passive regardless of alignment

On June 09 2015 15:00 Kickstart wrote:
yeh setup says 1 priest 2 witchhunters (each is 1 shot silver bullet). sad times

On June 09 2015 14:59 FreezingFoot wrote:


Because Onegu and LS just had non-alignment indicative behaviour regarding their meta, but Shockey's two posts' inconsistencies fits much more a mafia mindset

On June 09 2015 15:35 Tubesock wrote:
So, what are we doing here? Lynching the lurkiest?

On June 09 2015 21:53 batsnacks wrote:
Can we not lynch bugs btw? BM's push is compelling and all but mafia is rarely the person making the first push on someone (bugs pushing foots, LS). I think it's more likely that bugs is just excited/rusty town. He even took it all personal when people didn't validate his effort.

On June 10 2015 07:24 wherebugsgo wrote:
oh god I'm nervous

On June 10 2015 09:07 wherebugsgo wrote:


what?

It may have no effect only if the RB hits the priest.

I don't think scum are ballsy enough to both deliver the KP and a silver bullet on the same player (if they choose to fire a silver bullet tonight). If they try to snipe a blue tonight they almost certainly will use both players to deliver KP, otherwise if the witch hunter gets RBed both of their KPs fail

I am 99% sure I play better scum than you and let me be frank when I say a DT check would not scare me in this setup nearly as much as an RB or a jailkeeper prot.

On June 10 2015 16:35 Tubesock wrote:
We have such a showman. It's the little touches I really enjoy. Like his so pretty google doc he made for "us".


"w/e fuck it let's not get paranoid" is my favorite part. I particularly like it since I need to be reminded that Bugs is also displaying a towny trait! This entire doc is such a blessing to town. So helpful. Only a towny would be that helpful.

Damn near every one of his entries is a display to make him look more towny.

Since none of you would answer my request to point out why it is beneficial to town for Foot to not out. I can explain it for you lazy sheep.

First, I think it is important to acknowledge that the players in this game are largely unfamiliar with each other. This can make the night one kill choice more difficult than if the majority of players know each other. I'm sure sensai Bugs will say that "No, mafia ALWAYS WITHOUT EXCEPTION kill the town who is the closest to being right". Uh yeah no sometimes town doesn't really have any idea, so mafia kill the ones they fear. Not all the time but often.

There are various scenarios concerning the smurf and I won't come close to seeing them all. But take for instance a player like Holyflare or his caliber. A player who is both good at town and scum. There are players on this forum that are constantly killed night one. If they survive till Day 3 then they get lynched because no one can read them and if they survive they are obviously mafia. They die because mafia KNOWS they will figure out the game.

So, Holyflare wants to actually play a game and go past night 1 or 2. You will never be able to convince me that 1) the chances of NKing HF would be the same and 2) that it would not benefit town IMMENSELY to have HF live for a few more days. HF just singlehandedly won a game in 5-3 mylo very recently because mafia didn't kill him for some reason. How the fuck can you say him staying hidden doesn't benefit town?

So let's say he outs. Now, mafia has more information to judge their night kill on. Town will also just as likely argue about the outs authenticity. That benefits mafia again, no one is scumhunting. Town has to figure out the players alignment no matter if they out or not. But it gives mafia more information. It benefits mafia more than it benefits town.

What if HF is scum? Sure, he outs and then we lynch him D3/4 because there is no way HF should be alive that long. So in that respect it benefits mafia for him to remain a smurf. That also requires him to tell the truth. So, HF who consistently is lynched for surviving too long is going to out himself truthfully? That seems like a dumb idea.

Anyway, Bugs never considered more than just the one angle because his motive is to appear towny, not to solve the game. Bugs doesn't know hardly anyone in this game. Assuming new players don't smurf I think he's hoping he knows the player. Then he can make a better NK assessment.

On June 10 2015 16:43 Tubesock wrote:


Questions to towns:

Do you agree that LS would say that in QT at the beginning of the game? I think he would say that right away. Or something similar.

If you were his partner, would you bus him? I would absolutely. I wouldn't do it straight out the gate but early enough so I can take credit. I'm pretty sure there were two games very recently that had mafia bussing each other D1 on this forum. It happens and it's a fucking smart play when you know your mate is going to be lynched D2 or 3 anyway.

It could have been Onegu who actually first scummed LS I don't remember but it's obvious Bugs is taking credit for it and pushing how mafia would NEVER bus day 1 like that. NEVER.

How many of you would? Maybe Bugs is town and he really wouldn't. It's possible. I think reality is that he is mafia and is doing a little magic trick for us.

On June 10 2015 16:47 Tubesock wrote:
I'm willing to take the 7/8 odds that I am not miller.

Cop and priest check me tonight. If I don't turn up green on both lynch me. Simple.

Almost every single one of you sheep think I am scum. So what's to lose? I promise to still contribute what I think on non Bugs players even since you all seem to think he's so town.

On June 10 2015 17:04 Tubesock wrote:


Like who?

On June 10 2015 17:06 Tubesock wrote:


I think the smurf thing was a show to look towny. He continues to push it. I'm saying he isn't looking at more than one angle of his argument because he isn't motivated to find the truth, he's motivated to look towny.

On June 10 2015 17:11 Tubesock wrote:


That's very possible. But what if you have 2 mafia players who feel comfortable projecting town and can likely get and win votes? Sure, having that blue snipe ability is nice, but I think it pays off to bus a mate who will die in a day or two anyway. If I were mafia I would bus LS just like Bugs did. At least try to anyway.

On June 10 2015 17:38 Tubesock wrote:


From page 9 of his filter. Just prior to his post to me and after you and him talked blue powers.

On June 11 2015 11:12 yamato77 wrote:
breshke do you have objections to a BM lynch or are you just convinced that tube is more mafia?

On June 11 2015 12:23 Tubesock wrote:
You would have to do more work to understand that the Chezinu rule doesn't require any read on Chezinu or in this case LS. Further, it's not particularly you obviously have no idea what my points are. You are hung up on you think Bugs is town so whatever I say is weird and thus scummy.

It is laughable that someone towns me for try hard night posting. This is something I can do just as easily as mafia or town.

On June 11 2015 12:58 Tubesock wrote:
Yes I think BM is totes town.

Why wouldn't the 3rd vote LS? I think the 3rd did. I don't think any of the non-LS voters were mafia. So...what's the question really?

On June 11 2015 13:13 Tubesock wrote:


Clearly, I'm not really understanding your question haha.

You asked if I thought the 3rd mafia player would vote LS. That the 3rd would also bus him.

I think 3rd did. I think the 3 people (aside from LS) are town...I feel like I'm saying "YES" and you are reading kanji or something.

On June 11 2015 13:32 Tubesock wrote:


I understand it's a majority lynch and how that works.

So scenarios. The scum can either try to save a basically saveless LS (meaning later in the game) and later respond to heat for saving LS D1, they can just bus him and avoid suspicion altogether and possibly gain some town cred, or go for the no lynch and then receive heat for it. I don't think the resultant town chaos would be worth it.

That situation I think the smartest move is to be on LS. Course it's possible they weren't but I think that the decision to bus was made well in advance.

On June 11 2015 13:47 Tubesock wrote:


So, you think that mafiaLS isn't obvious mafia on D3? You think he can maintain his level of posting over the course of a couple days? I do not. The longer LS is alive the more and more scummy he appears to everyone. He maintains his town posting. Do you not agree with that? The longer he is alive as mafia this drastically lowers any towncred a bus offers.

On June 12 2015 11:19 wherebugsgo wrote:


no, I didn't live because of the prot unless one of the claimers is lying

you have to explain how KS died if the JK saved me. I had to have eaten the WH shot, and kickstart probably ate the normal shot.

This makes the most sense because scum probably knew I was going to be protted.