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On June 13 2015 16:58 FreezingFoot wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2015 16:49 wherebugsgo wrote:it blows my mind that after all he said d1 that people thought he was in their top 3 town reads I was starting to think he was more town over time because of the sheer number of people yelling at me but on d1 I would never have considered voting him On June 13 2015 16:48 yamato77 wrote:
I agree with your point in principle but disagree with it in practice, because rarely will a town smurf just freely out and most of the time you just waste a lot of the time in the day you could be using to pressure players for things they've actually done since role PMs were handed out. Even when the smurf in question is mafia, it's impossible to get people to policy lynch a smurf and convincing people that ONLY a mafia smurf wouldn't out is just loltastic. All it does is make you look worse for focusing on such an irrelevant point and give the player in question reason to be a dick and OMGUS you. nah it was very clear based on the pressure that he was either hiding being a smurf for a bad reason or he was scum. Like for almost 12 hours we got almost nothing out of him, and it forced him to be more active, but he never provided real reads I only backed off because of the sheer backlash I got, otherwise I would've kept tunneling him till he died. I got almost no backup at all on that push so I switched to LS also if I knew his meta I probably would've nailed him 100%. I didn't have the time to look into his past games when he slipped GB but at that point I assumed I was wrong already Would never reveal who I was if I were town. I chose to smurf so people wouldn't have this idea that "he is glowingbear, he is wrong". But then I rolled scum, and being bad would be helpful if I got my identity revealed at some point. In other words, in the beginning of the game, you were right for the wrong reasons
except the reads you provided weren't even reads lol
they had no specificity to them
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On June 13 2015 16:58 Kickstart wrote:
Yeah I was not buying that they bussed their silver bullet, makes zero sense. How you read my EoD and Night Phase postings and dont see that I found you suspicious is beyond me.
Being suspicious =\= pretty sure
Doesn't mean you were wrong
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On June 13 2015 16:59 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2015 16:58 FreezingFoot wrote:On June 13 2015 16:49 wherebugsgo wrote:it blows my mind that after all he said d1 that people thought he was in their top 3 town reads I was starting to think he was more town over time because of the sheer number of people yelling at me but on d1 I would never have considered voting him On June 13 2015 16:48 yamato77 wrote:
I agree with your point in principle but disagree with it in practice, because rarely will a town smurf just freely out and most of the time you just waste a lot of the time in the day you could be using to pressure players for things they've actually done since role PMs were handed out. Even when the smurf in question is mafia, it's impossible to get people to policy lynch a smurf and convincing people that ONLY a mafia smurf wouldn't out is just loltastic. All it does is make you look worse for focusing on such an irrelevant point and give the player in question reason to be a dick and OMGUS you. nah it was very clear based on the pressure that he was either hiding being a smurf for a bad reason or he was scum. Like for almost 12 hours we got almost nothing out of him, and it forced him to be more active, but he never provided real reads I only backed off because of the sheer backlash I got, otherwise I would've kept tunneling him till he died. I got almost no backup at all on that push so I switched to LS also if I knew his meta I probably would've nailed him 100%. I didn't have the time to look into his past games when he slipped GB but at that point I assumed I was wrong already Would never reveal who I was if I were town. I chose to smurf so people wouldn't have this idea that "he is glowingbear, he is wrong". But then I rolled scum, and being bad would be helpful if I got my identity revealed at some point. In other words, in the beginning of the game, you were right for the wrong reasons except the reads you provided weren't even reads lol they had no specificity to them
Yes, but this has nothing to do with the smurf matter?
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anyway it's something interesting. I obviously don't agree with the conclusion of the other people in this game that smurfs should be treated the same as other townies. I think that type of thinking can potentially be really dangerous. Perhaps some people smurf for "obvious" reasons but it's valuable to understand those motivations because identity is like literally the most important thing in this game when you don't have better things to work with. Someone who is named Foolishness should be punished for having shitty reads, but if you don't know that they are Foolishness (or cannot get enough info out of them to understand that they should potentially be a strong player) then you are at a huge disadvantage when attempting to read them
e:
On June 13 2015 17:00 FreezingFoot wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2015 16:59 wherebugsgo wrote:On June 13 2015 16:58 FreezingFoot wrote:On June 13 2015 16:49 wherebugsgo wrote:it blows my mind that after all he said d1 that people thought he was in their top 3 town reads I was starting to think he was more town over time because of the sheer number of people yelling at me but on d1 I would never have considered voting him On June 13 2015 16:48 yamato77 wrote:
I agree with your point in principle but disagree with it in practice, because rarely will a town smurf just freely out and most of the time you just waste a lot of the time in the day you could be using to pressure players for things they've actually done since role PMs were handed out. Even when the smurf in question is mafia, it's impossible to get people to policy lynch a smurf and convincing people that ONLY a mafia smurf wouldn't out is just loltastic. All it does is make you look worse for focusing on such an irrelevant point and give the player in question reason to be a dick and OMGUS you. nah it was very clear based on the pressure that he was either hiding being a smurf for a bad reason or he was scum. Like for almost 12 hours we got almost nothing out of him, and it forced him to be more active, but he never provided real reads I only backed off because of the sheer backlash I got, otherwise I would've kept tunneling him till he died. I got almost no backup at all on that push so I switched to LS also if I knew his meta I probably would've nailed him 100%. I didn't have the time to look into his past games when he slipped GB but at that point I assumed I was wrong already Would never reveal who I was if I were town. I chose to smurf so people wouldn't have this idea that "he is glowingbear, he is wrong". But then I rolled scum, and being bad would be helpful if I got my identity revealed at some point. In other words, in the beginning of the game, you were right for the wrong reasons except the reads you provided weren't even reads lol they had no specificity to them Yes, but this has nothing to do with the smurf matter?
yes, it does.
Some people just don't have specificity in their reads when they are town, because they have bad reads in general. With those types of players if you know that (and the only way you'd know that is by reading their town games) you can adjust your read of them based on that.
After having read some of your town games I know you may be wrong sometimes but you at least give reasons for your reads. Your reasons this game either didn't exist or they sucked (and by sucked I mean the thought process made close to 0 sense from a town perspective) but without knowing your identity I had no idea whether that was normal or not
So the only gauge I had was other people disagreeing with me so I backed off
smurfing is powerful as fuck when you land scum.
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On June 13 2015 16:57 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2015 16:54 FreezingFoot wrote:On June 13 2015 16:48 yamato77 wrote:
I agree with your point in principle but disagree with it in practice, because rarely will a town smurf just freely out and most of the time you just waste a lot of the time in the day you could be using to pressure players for things they've actually done since role PMs were handed out. Even when the smurf in question is mafia, it's impossible to get people to policy lynch a smurf and convincing people that ONLY a mafia smurf wouldn't out is just loltastic. All it does is make you look worse for focusing on such an irrelevant point and give the player in question reason to be a dick and OMGUS you. ^ this You actually made things very easy to me in early day 1 with this, bugs. why? I really don't understand why this is such a controversial opinion. I think I did my best to show why it was in town's best interest to either get something out of you, whether it be an identity or reads. We got absolutely nothing and yet people still considered you town I only backed off because people disagreed with me. Generally when so many people disagree with me I start convincing myself that I am wrong. I did not like what you posted but I gave it a rest because it was destroying the thread. That's why I started calling you bad, because if so many people disagreed with me I thought you must be an idiot townie who I should start ignoring for having bad opinions. It's good that I picked up on LS otherwise I would've started tunneling some poor townie like stutters also it was definitely NOT a policy lynch. It was pressure based on being a smurf and I didn't like the direction you took after the pressure
The problem with this argument is that you see it objectively (knowing his identity is beneficial to town; thus not revealing it is a scum agenda), but ignores it subjectively (this guy has reasons to smurf that can go beyond his team's goals)
When you start forcing this matter, it gets easier for me to defend myself (you see, everybody understood you but nobody agreed with you), plus it gives me a easy reason to scum read you.
Now, I thought about going aggressively against you. But it was too easy. I took a step back and I started thinking of how I would react as town. And that was not going full throttle that early. It was to read you slowly and slowly forming my opinion on you. I thought this would grant me town points.
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yes, obviously convincing people is harder than forming the read. which is why I'm actually trying to show how it can almost never be beneficial for the TEAM for a person to smurf.
When people actually understand this they'll stop giving a fuck if smurfing has "benefits that go beyond his team's goals" which is a fancier way of saying "smurfing benefits the player themselves." That's exactly my overarching point, in like 99% of cases smurfing only benefits the individual player. Town play is entirely team-based, which is why it's almost never in town's interest to have a smurf.
e: also if you have personal interests in smurfing and you don't want to reveal you identity that's generally fine, as I mentioned in-game. Your reaction was solely based on identity though, which was very telling. Since you lacked proper reads that led me further into believing you were scum.
Again the problem was convincing other people, which is so incredibly hard. I've found it's easier to convince them emotionally which is usually why I get people to mislynch into randoms when I play scum. As town for whatever reason I find it really hard to do that because it's hard to use emotion while simultaneously having high confidence you have a scum lynch. Basically what happens is if you lynch the wrong dude you end up dying yourself because you so persuasively told everyone some poor townie was scum
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On June 13 2015 17:01 wherebugsgo wrote:anyway it's something interesting. I obviously don't agree with the conclusion of the other people in this game that smurfs should be treated the same as other townies. I think that type of thinking can potentially be really dangerous. Perhaps some people smurf for "obvious" reasons but it's valuable to understand those motivations because identity is like literally the most important thing in this game when you don't have better things to work with. Someone who is named Foolishness should be punished for having shitty reads, but if you don't know that they are Foolishness (or cannot get enough info out of them to understand that they should potentially be a strong player) then you are at a huge disadvantage when attempting to read them e: Show nested quote +On June 13 2015 17:00 FreezingFoot wrote:On June 13 2015 16:59 wherebugsgo wrote:On June 13 2015 16:58 FreezingFoot wrote:On June 13 2015 16:49 wherebugsgo wrote:it blows my mind that after all he said d1 that people thought he was in their top 3 town reads I was starting to think he was more town over time because of the sheer number of people yelling at me but on d1 I would never have considered voting him On June 13 2015 16:48 yamato77 wrote:
I agree with your point in principle but disagree with it in practice, because rarely will a town smurf just freely out and most of the time you just waste a lot of the time in the day you could be using to pressure players for things they've actually done since role PMs were handed out. Even when the smurf in question is mafia, it's impossible to get people to policy lynch a smurf and convincing people that ONLY a mafia smurf wouldn't out is just loltastic. All it does is make you look worse for focusing on such an irrelevant point and give the player in question reason to be a dick and OMGUS you. nah it was very clear based on the pressure that he was either hiding being a smurf for a bad reason or he was scum. Like for almost 12 hours we got almost nothing out of him, and it forced him to be more active, but he never provided real reads I only backed off because of the sheer backlash I got, otherwise I would've kept tunneling him till he died. I got almost no backup at all on that push so I switched to LS also if I knew his meta I probably would've nailed him 100%. I didn't have the time to look into his past games when he slipped GB but at that point I assumed I was wrong already Would never reveal who I was if I were town. I chose to smurf so people wouldn't have this idea that "he is glowingbear, he is wrong". But then I rolled scum, and being bad would be helpful if I got my identity revealed at some point. In other words, in the beginning of the game, you were right for the wrong reasons except the reads you provided weren't even reads lol they had no specificity to them Yes, but this has nothing to do with the smurf matter? yes, it does. Some people just don't have specificity in their reads when they are town, because they have bad reads in general. With those types of players if you know that (and the only way you'd know that is by reading their town games) you can adjust your read of them based on that. After having read some of your town games I know you may be wrong sometimes but you at least give reasons for your reads. Your reasons this game either didn't exist or they sucked (and by sucked I mean the thought process made close to 0 sense from a town perspective) but without knowing your identity I had no idea whether that was normal or not So the only gauge I had was other people disagreeing with me so I backed off smurfing is powerful as fuck when you land scum.
Meh, I can't argue against this because as those reads were mine, I can't see the problems in them.
The thing is that I don't really believe you would have caught me. As you said, you were progressively townreading me, while the others followed the opposite path (like kickstart), which means your townread on me wasn't only for people yelling at you.
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I actually wasn't really paying attention to kickstart, which is why I mentioned to him that I went back and read his posts after he died lol.
Anyway the interesting part to me is that convincing other people as scum is fairly easy because you don't have to worry about being wrong. Well, you can worry about being wrong but worrying about being wrong will usually get you killed because you'll start to show it in your posts.
As town though you have to constantly worry if you are wrong which makes it hard to convince people to vote with you. You can't use emotional appeals because if you end up being wrong you'll look like an idiot and people will try to lynch you (and then you get further away from finding scum)
I really admire those players who can simultaneously find scum and convince townies to vote with them cause that job is so hard
thanks to BH and HtS for hosting and dealing with shenanigans
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On June 13 2015 17:08 wherebugsgo wrote:
yes, obviously convincing people is harder than forming the read. which is why I'm actually trying to show how it can almost never be beneficial for the TEAM for a person to smurf.
When people actually understand this they'll stop giving a fuck if smurfing has "benefits that go beyond his team's goals" which is a fancier way of saying "smurfing benefits the player themselves." That's exactly my overarching point, in like 99% of cases smurfing only benefits the individual player. Town play is entirely team-based, which is why it's almost never in town's interest to have a smurf.
e: also if you have personal interests in smurfing and you don't want to reveal you identity that's generally fine, as I mentioned in-game. Your reaction was solely based on identity though, which was very telling. Since you lacked proper reads that led me further into believing you were scum.
Again the problem was convincing other people, which is so incredibly hard. I've found it's easier to convince them emotionally which is usually why I get people to mislynch into randoms when I play scum. As town for whatever reason I find it really hard to do that because it's hard to use emotion while simultaneously having high confidence you have a scum lynch. Basically what happens is if you lynch the wrong dude you end up dying yourself because you so persuasively told everyone some poor townie was scum
But here is something you're ignoring: yamato instantly townread me because he got to known I was GB and I had wrong reads.
Revealing myself was better to me than to town.
Your argument is too objective. You're just saying that with a smurf you have one less instrument for reading a player: meta.
But meta can work for both sides, as I just said about yamato's townread on me.
IMO: biggest problem of a smurf is when it lurks. And if I kept lurking, you were totally right for wanting to lynch me. But if I kept my activity high, wanting to lynch me at EOD because you didn't know my identity is silly. IMO
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On June 13 2015 17:15 FreezingFoot wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2015 17:08 wherebugsgo wrote:
yes, obviously convincing people is harder than forming the read. which is why I'm actually trying to show how it can almost never be beneficial for the TEAM for a person to smurf.
When people actually understand this they'll stop giving a fuck if smurfing has "benefits that go beyond his team's goals" which is a fancier way of saying "smurfing benefits the player themselves." That's exactly my overarching point, in like 99% of cases smurfing only benefits the individual player. Town play is entirely team-based, which is why it's almost never in town's interest to have a smurf.
e: also if you have personal interests in smurfing and you don't want to reveal you identity that's generally fine, as I mentioned in-game. Your reaction was solely based on identity though, which was very telling. Since you lacked proper reads that led me further into believing you were scum.
Again the problem was convincing other people, which is so incredibly hard. I've found it's easier to convince them emotionally which is usually why I get people to mislynch into randoms when I play scum. As town for whatever reason I find it really hard to do that because it's hard to use emotion while simultaneously having high confidence you have a scum lynch. Basically what happens is if you lynch the wrong dude you end up dying yourself because you so persuasively told everyone some poor townie was scum But here is something you're ignoring: yamato instantly townread me because he got to known I was GB and I had wrong reads. Revealing myself was better to me than to town. Your argument is too objective. You're just saying that with a smurf you have one less instrument for reading a player: meta. But meta can work for both sides, as I just said about yamato's townread on me. IMO: biggest problem of a smurf is when it lurks. And if I kept lurking, you were totally right for wanting to lynch me. But if I kept my activity high, wanting to lynch me at EOD because you didn't know my identity is silly. IMO
yes, but that's because yamato used meta incorrectly.
I don't think he bothered to do a behavioural analysis, he fell into the trap that results matter. He was like oh well GB gets reads wrong as town and since his reads all suck here he must be town which logically makes no sense at all
e: for the record by that point I had also been convinced by my self and everyone else that you were town so I wasn't really paying attention to you and I didn't even bother looking up your past games because I trusted yamato's read.
that is something I messed up and I know I won't do in the future
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
Thanks to hts for great co hosting
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On June 13 2015 17:13 wherebugsgo wrote:
I actually wasn't really paying attention to kickstart, which is why I mentioned to him that I went back and read his posts after he died lol.
Anyway the interesting part to me is that convincing other people as scum is fairly easy because you don't have to worry about being wrong. Well, you can worry about being wrong but worrying about being wrong will usually get you killed because you'll start to show it in your posts.
As town though you have to constantly worry if you are wrong which makes it hard to convince people to vote with you. You can't use emotional appeals because if you end up being wrong you'll look like an idiot and people will try to lynch you (and then you get further away from finding scum)
I really admire those players who can simultaneously find scum and convince townies to vote with them cause that job is so hard
thanks to BH and HtS for hosting and dealing with shenanigans
That's why I backtracked on you. I thought giving you a day1 pass would grant me town reads. Like, you were the biggest fikter after all.
But I was aiming for a no lynch. I was VERY surprised when LS's lynch really got traction. So good job lynching him
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btw BH are you gonna do any comments post-game?
interested in knowing what omniscient viewers thought
e: and obs I guess. I actually am curious what people think about the smurf stuff, among other things
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11589 Posts
looooooooool my night WIFOM worked
tbf though BH didn't tell me I had won until just a few hours before deadline LOL
sick plays were made that night
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All I'm trying to say, bugs, is that although you played very well (aside being a dick to people  ) is that I was townread by my own merits and not just because you were yelled at.
Also, there was a post of yours saying something like "well, he could have gambled and tried to save his partner AND looking not-scum because scum would never be so bold"
That was like... Soul reading hahahaha
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Yeah thanks to both the hosts and how fast you answered my questions really appreciate it.
Who didn't follow the voting plan by the way? That could have gone really bad.
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11589 Posts
Eh I townread you because I was lazy
TBH I really didn't read much you posted all game because it was more difficult to decipher than I cared
I did consider the possibility you were mafia after we saw the voting results because I sorta had reasons to townread Onegu and Shockey and you had basically stopped posting but I still would have checked Onegu over you.
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11589 Posts
On June 13 2015 17:25 Breshke wrote:
Yeah thanks to both the hosts and how fast you answered my questions really appreciate it.
Who didn't follow the voting plan by the way? That could have gone really bad.
BH was under the impression I was throwing, LOL.
FULL YOLO engaged, get myself elected and fuck confirming townies.
He didn't realize I wasn't part of the voting blocks.
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On June 13 2015 17:23 yamato77 wrote:
looooooooool my night WIFOM worked
tbf though BH didn't tell me I had won until just a few hours before deadline LOL
sick plays were made that night
Boy I wanted you dead
You were the first person I thought that had witchcraft. Then I moved to Breshke and Kickstart. I could never believe on batsnacks
That mafia QT is a shame though. Game was totally winnable after LS died, specially if we followed my plan.
But well, whatever.
Btw BH, that voting plan is very game breaking. Maybe letting scum voting for people too? I don't know
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On June 13 2015 17:26 yamato77 wrote:
Eh I townread you because I was lazy
TBH I really didn't read much you posted all game because it was more difficult to decipher than I cared
I did consider the possibility you were mafia after we saw the voting results because I sorta had reasons to townread Onegu and Shockey and you had basically stopped posting but I still would have checked Onegu over you.
Difficult to decipher?
Like... Bad spelling?
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EPT
