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Yeah, I guess it's fair to say that we brought our own downfall 
BM's crazy D1 play wasn't necessarily 100% bad, but it should have been discussed beforehand IMO. I was under the impression that BM was planning to use his nuke towards the endgame, perhaps at LYLO. When I had to post in the thread, I was very surprised by that play and had absolutely no idea what we intended to do with it, so I just ended up taking a scummy soft stance on it. Several people noticed my lackluster stance and that was one of the reasons why I was a lynch candidate that day.
Same goes for Palmar's push on sandroba and marv, I guess. Luckily I had already managed to take a strong stance on sandroba being town and not wanting to lynch marv, so I didn't end up taking a similar scummy stance on yet another issue. But Palmar ended up being shot for that which sealed our fate...
All in all, a lot of miscommunication and lackluster plays from our team. marv at least managed to stay somewhat unsuspected during all that But that's hardly enough when the rest are dead...
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This is the first time I see good players advocating against constant reads post.
I've alway advocate the "post what you see", because it generates discussion. Generating discussion will have people dropping information in thread. Information in thread means you have instruments to work with.
If you take a game like Avogadro's Mini Mafia, for example. A lot of townies lurked and it was impossible to figure out their alignment because there simply wasn't enough information in thread.
That is why I posted the flawed reads case early on. It's based on weak arguments, but of course it got people talking. I don't see why that it is bad. Can someone clarify it for me?
Also, regarding this:
Key here is that they all felt they had to address BM but didn’t want to push him hardcore, so they have this awkward situation where they try to not get BM pushed but not look like they’re ignoring it
I got marv doing this with Onegu. He was Mafia.
But I also got oats doing this with other people he raised suspicions and never revisited.
How do you differ when a townie do and a Mafia do?
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I also saw that you based a lot of your reads on unflipped associafion, which I always heard isn't good.
What would you do if BM flipped town, for example?
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I think one thing to consider is that this puts them into a scum pile but there has to be something that you compare it to, other things that happen etc., while oats was never solidly town for me I thought that some of his stuff was trying to solve the game and he was way more active in this situation than the last time he was mafia.
So a bit meta on oats for example, and he did have other hard stances he took as well. So its a bit tough and might be a bit to oversimplified on that part
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
On May 18 2015 01:04 Xatalos wrote:All in all, a lot of miscommunication and lackluster plays from our team. marv at least managed to stay somewhat unsuspected during all that But that's hardly enough when the rest are dead...
This is what made me laugh about the analysis about mafia planning. I played pretty ok most of d1, but I cannot allow for BM shooting nukes off without warning, and I can't allow for Xata (and jat to an extent, especially early) just being very suspicious by playing not very strongly.
And I cannot count for Palmar making this terrible, terrible push on sandroba (and then me) that basically only comes from mafia.
Most of you are too young (lol) to remember Bureaucracy mafia (another Ver game), but in that game mafia-Palmar made a nonsensical push on obviously town syllogism. Just history repeating itself. Which obviously puts me (who is supposed to know Palmar better than anyone) in an extraordinarily difficult position. Because town-me strings up Palmar immediately.
My point being, it was never a failure of planning etc on our part - we didn't need janitor, even in hindsight with the analysis going "omg why not pick janitor" - no, we did not need janitor at all. What we needed was scumteam members not to do random terrible shit on their own accord, not to place other members in terrible positions for no reason, just solid play.
Another funny aside is that both days the game lasted, we lynched a townie. I managed to make the d1 wagons from mafia-town to town-town. What we lacked was playing a solid game, people not doing terrible shit for no reason.
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
Show nested quote +
Key here is that they all felt they had to address BM but didn’t want to push him hardcore, so they have this awkward situation where they try to not get BM pushed but not look like they’re ignoring it
I got marv doing this with Onegu. He was Mafia.
er, no you didn't, i pushed BM pretty consistently, i made his wagon... nothing you picked at from me made me mafia.
rsoultin made the best posts for me being mafia.
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On May 18 2015 02:03 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2015 01:04 Xatalos wrote:All in all, a lot of miscommunication and lackluster plays from our team. marv at least managed to stay somewhat unsuspected during all that But that's hardly enough when the rest are dead... This is what made me laugh about the analysis about mafia planning. I played pretty ok most of d1, but I cannot allow for BM shooting nukes off without warning, and I can't allow for Xata (and jat to an extent, especially early) just being very suspicious by playing not very strongly. And I cannot count for Palmar making this terrible, terrible push on sandroba (and then me) that basically only comes from mafia. Most of you are too young (lol) to remember Bureaucracy mafia (another Ver game), but in that game mafia-Palmar made a nonsensical push on obviously town syllogism. Just history repeating itself. Which obviously puts me (who is supposed to know Palmar better than anyone) in an extraordinarily difficult position. Because town-me strings up Palmar immediately. My point being, it was never a failure of planning etc on our part - we didn't need janitor, even in hindsight with the analysis going "omg why not pick janitor" - no, we did not need janitor at all. What we needed was scumteam members not to do random terrible shit on their own accord, not to place other members in terrible positions for no reason, just solid play. Another funny aside is that both days the game lasted, we lynched a townie. I managed to make the d1 wagons from mafia-town to town-town. What we lacked was playing a solid game, people not doing terrible shit for no reason.
I 100 % agree with this post. Except for the Bureaucracy part for that I am too young to remember.
If BM does not decide it is time to be the scummiest mofo on earth on his own suddenly, if Xata and me don't let themselves be shocked by it the way we did/if we put more effort in (this could have been and to some extent was "repaired" later though) and if Palmar does not randomly decide it is time to push the towniest people for no reason then scum is in a really good spot this game without a janitor and without a great masterplan. Scum generally does not need any plan at all to win games, they just need to not do stupid shit.
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On May 18 2015 02:04 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +
Key here is that they all felt they had to address BM but didn’t want to push him hardcore, so they have this awkward situation where they try to not get BM pushed but not look like they’re ignoring it
I got marv doing this with Onegu. He was Mafia. rsoultin made the best posts for me being mafia.
Yup. That's also one of the really good parts of the analysis. Town marv would 100 % reacted differently to being nuked.
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On May 18 2015 02:04 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +
Key here is that they all felt they had to address BM but didn’t want to push him hardcore, so they have this awkward situation where they try to not get BM pushed but not look like they’re ignoring it
I got marv doing this with Onegu. He was Mafia. er, no you didn't, i pushed BM pretty consistently, i made his wagon... nothing you picked at from me made me mafia. rsoultin made the best posts for me being mafia.
On May 16 2015 13:05 GlowingBear wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2015 12:52 LightningStrike wrote:On May 16 2015 12:19 GlowingBear wrote:On May 16 2015 12:15 LightningStrike wrote:On May 16 2015 12:10 Oatsmaster wrote:
Glowing bear is ignoring all the claims.
Also ls, it's basically impossible that both of them are scum. I know it's like impossible that both are scum that why I asking him why Marv over TD. I'm not saying marv over TD. I'm saying marv. Because I AM IGNORING THOSE CLAIMS  LS, it's all in my filter. Can you tell me why marv is town, in the other hand? Okay so first you didn't like the fact he was dodging you hard then found it suspicious that Marv was willing to tell his role to Sandroba, Damdred, and Palmar who he didn't trust at the time which is weird to do. My arguement for Marv being town was he was the first one to claim Mason Recruiter in a high chance of a counter claim but that is only it. No. 1) Marv's play is uninspiring, lurky, not actually trying to solve the game, voting people for weak reasons 2) Marv townread me because I was bad, and he knows I am bad as both alignments. He says that he can differ my scumbad to my townbad, but he doesn't explain how. Extremely dodgy 3) Marv raises suspicions on oats twice during day1. Never follow up this suspicion. Ignores me when I raise suspicions on oats but talks to me to say "BH is not the lynch". He saw those suspicions because this part of "BH is up for the lynch" was next to my suspicions on oats4) Marv agrees with one point of my case on oats, does not say which point it is, say that he caught oats like that once AND COMPLETELY IGNORE OATS AGAIN. In other words: marv does not stick to his suspicions and rather vote on confirmed townies (BH, Vivax, Onegu) for weak reasons. Specially Onegu.
The bolded is exactly what Ver says it's the best way to catch Mafia.
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United States2186 Posts
I agree the game was lackluster for something this detailed but what can you do lol. This is probably the only time I'll be around here for awhile so I wanted to offer the most I could. I think having two people cover the same things was probably superfluous. I also don't think incog knew mafia gave up after palmar died so you can ignore his comments there.
On May 18 2015 02:03 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2015 01:04 Xatalos wrote:All in all, a lot of miscommunication and lackluster plays from our team. marv at least managed to stay somewhat unsuspected during all that But that's hardly enough when the rest are dead... This is what made me laugh about the analysis about mafia planning. I played pretty ok most of d1, but I cannot allow for BM shooting nukes off without warning, and I can't allow for Xata (and jat to an extent, especially early) just being very suspicious by playing not very strongly. And I cannot count for Palmar making this terrible, terrible push on sandroba (and then me) that basically only comes from mafia. Most of you are too young (lol) to remember Bureaucracy mafia (another Ver game), but in that game mafia-Palmar made a nonsensical push on obviously town syllogism. Just history repeating itself. Which obviously puts me (who is supposed to know Palmar better than anyone) in an extraordinarily difficult position. Because town-me strings up Palmar immediately. My point being, it was never a failure of planning etc on our part - we didn't need janitor, even in hindsight with the analysis going "omg why not pick janitor" - no, we did not need janitor at all. What we needed was scumteam members not to do random terrible shit on their own accord, not to place other members in terrible positions for no reason, just solid play. Another funny aside is that both days the game lasted, we lynched a townie. I managed to make the d1 wagons from mafia-town to town-town. What we lacked was playing a solid game, people not doing terrible shit for no reason.
Obviously your team completely screwed you over. To be fair though, planning things out is also a way to prevent people from doing retarded plays. If you create a setting with your mafia team where people talk over their prospective stances/actions with their team before going rambo, that helps avoid these catastrophic scenarios. I say that having been on teams with people who look Bill Murray's play this game look sane.
The similarity with Bureaucracy is hilarious, but in that game it's at least a little more understandable because he couldn't coordinate anything with his team or have them sanity check him.
And Janitor is clearly a very strong role regardless.
On May 18 2015 02:13 justanothertownie wrote:
Scum generally does not need any plan at all to win games, they just need to not do stupid shit.
If mafia just need to not be stupid, that kinda implies towns suck nowadays?
Sorry if this felt like an attack on the mafia team; that wasn't the intention at all. I guess in retrospect if such a massive analysis is made over a game like this it probably inevitably feels that way. Whoops.
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lol the nuke reaction was it
he was never going to be town to me afterwards. i was wrong on bh but i knew that he knew that nuke wasn't going to kill him, and only mafia knows that
and yes they're right to criticize my play. i switched to this playstyle when i knew i was wrong a ridiculous amount and equally knew that i had a ton of pull on a thread (carol). i do it to protect people from my normal stupidity lol ><
it's just unfortunate that i tend to generally be better at finding scum in the players like holyflare and marvellosity than the other ones, cause those are the players most difficult to get lynched :/ i'm probably going to have to adjust how i approach the game...but i'm not sure the best way to do it -_-
anywho <3 thanks for the analysis, and thanks for the game! it was fun to play lol
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On May 18 2015 04:30 Ver wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2015 02:13 justanothertownie wrote:
Scum generally does not need any plan at all to win games, they just need to not do stupid shit. If mafia just need to not be stupid, that kinda implies towns suck nowadays?
Absolutely not. The reason playing scum is really really hard nowadays is the crazy activity level of most towns. Always seeming genuine and interested in games with hundred of pages is way way way harder than only having to make a few smart posts and only very few people are able to do it as mafia. Many people just tend to post way more as town.
Planning a day from the start is close to impossible because wagons will switch within minutes close to deadline. If you are mafia during this you have to 1) seem like you try to figure things out 2) try to lynch town.
And you have to be quick about your decisions. You rarely have time to use some elaborate strategy.
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It's sad when I'm ignored even in post game 
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Basically if you are able to keep up without fucking up you are already pretty good.
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It was so much easier to play as a 3P in the Ippo game Way easier to adapt to situations and do whatever felt best.
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On May 18 2015 05:06 Xatalos wrote:It was so much easier to play as a 3P in the Ippo game Way easier to adapt to situations and do whatever felt best.
Well, obviously. Because you didn't know the scumteam.
The game is prove for why 3ps suck so much. Punishing the better team etc.
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When you're mafia you play the odds.
Everything I do is done for a reason. Sometimes I misjudge a situation and sometimes I'm right. In general I play mafia with two goals in mind.
1) Avoid the lynch as long as possible
2) Don't leave traces to your teammates if you happen to die.
When I made the point on JAT I did it to distance myself from him, knowing it'd be very easy for me to drop it later in the game. I successfully dropped the point on day 1 and on day 2 after I died at least one person tried to townread JAT based on our interaction there. I think that was a good play overall.
Pushing sandroba I knew would reveal my alignment to him specifically. But I had plenty of people townreading me for it and I had a continuation plan. I was going to "come around" on sandroba day 2 (if we weren't going to shoot him) and basically try to play the "Why would I do this as mafia" card. As I said, you play the odds. I don't think I was in any danger of being lynched, because I had a group of people calling me town and I had a good continuation strategy.
Of course I didn't expect one of the people who aligned hard with sandroba to be a vigilante. I don't play around vigilantes when I'm mafia. I clearly misjudged just how far people would go trusting his reads.
I'm generally fine with looking scum to some people as long as the payoff is good.
If town is interested, if I didn't die that night this is the continuation plan we came up with. I was going to feel really shit about sandroba being town and start becoming increasingly suspicious of marv. But I was going to try to play my suspicion on marv off as on again, off again thing similar to what happened in mafia XXX. The goal here is to dominate the discussion throughout the day to prevent actual useful stuff from happening, and hopefully defaulting to a lurker/weak presence lynch.
The additional benefit of this plan is that it very much distances me and marv when one of us (probably me) inevitably flips.
But town vigilantes were very, very much on their game this game, and sometimes that just happens. I don't think our strategy was bad overall. We could have executed it better, but I'm just mostly going to give this win to excellent KP play by town. Kudos bros!
I'm not good enough at mafia to be in a situation where no one scumreads me. And generally I've found more effective to try to be polarizing than to be unremarkable. Sometimes this works great (see guardians. I employed a very similar strategy of distancing/surviving) and sometimes it simply doesn't. I always play the lynch, instead of playing around vigilantes. Maybe I shouldn't?
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Oh and town benefit greatly from the post restrictions this game. Mafia had multiple players capable of really dominating a discussion through sheer volume or just yelling louder than anyone else and the post restriction really helped town shut that down.
Also this is complete bullshit
On May 17 2015 03:07 justanothertownie wrote:
I mean Palmar is probably the only player on this team that is even remotely able to imitate his towngame as scum.
Do you know how hard it is to fake my day 1 play as mafia? I guess the later days are easier, but I have one of the most distinctive day 1 style on TL Mafia. Faking the insight, subtle tone reads and productive aggression that I usually play with on day 1 is super hard. If you can tell me how to do it, please do.
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On May 18 2015 06:32 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2015 03:07 justanothertownie wrote:
I mean Palmar is probably the only player on this team that is even remotely able to imitate his towngame as scum. Do you know how hard it is to fake my day 1 play as mafia? I guess the later days are easier, but I have one of the most distinctive day 1 style on TL Mafia. Faking the insight, subtle tone reads and productive aggression that I usually play with on day 1 is super hard. If you can tell me how to do it, please do.
I can't. I just know that to me your play usually looks very very similar as long as you are not on the chopping block. That's when your alignment becomes really obvious as town.
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And I am not telling you to play around vigis that's more or less impossible. I am not even disagreeing with your general approach to the game. But in this specific game this specific push on sandroba was so incredibly illogical and bad that there was no justification for it to come from town. It also was completely unnecessary. There is polarization and there is obvious bullshitting.
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EPT
