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On May 03 2015 04:38 y0su wrote:
BTW (and I probably should have asked earlier) does it matter too much that I'm in a really early timezone? (3h ahead of UK)
Keep in mind not every moderator has the same deadline time - it varies from game to game. This game's deadline is midnight for me, and it is probably the latest I prefer it.
Tried a NA-friendly deadline (5am in my case) in Titanic and that was a bit uncomfortable trying to play the way I wanted to for EoD. It's not mandatory to be around EoD (end of day) but a lot of players generally try to, if there is a last minute vote switch (or "shennanies") or if there are other plays like claims/day actions, etc.
We have had Asians/Aussies play and their deadlines are ungodly early. Breshke in particular I have no idea how he does it. Don't think Oatsmaster (who's in Singapore) has it easy either. But they carry on.
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Finished my personal obligations for today - knackered, but nonetheless, reading the thread and catching up.
Any pertinent issues that need focused on in the meantime?
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Superbia, lol?
Pages 8-9 - really don't like either of Superbia's or prp's entrances. There's sarcasm on the people (Scott and Shining) whose posts they were picking on - it appears like they are making something out of nothing.
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Through page 13 -
Really not liking Superbia at all. I'm seeing a lot of questions which is okay, but no preliminary conclusions from them, not yet. The vote on me was pure policy, and generally a vet like him would go policy (on anyone) only if there was a total lack of scumreads. Pressure voting is okay, but this goes back to my first sentence, no conclusions from the questions he has asked. If he's concluded people look townie and then wants to policy vote, then that's another issue. That doesn't appear to be the case from what I read.
I've yet to play with Scott as town (or observe him as town) as scum I recall a lot of his arguments being contrived. He feels natural so far.
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On May 04 2015 05:23 Tictock wrote:
I'm getting pretty strong town vibes from y0su, disformation, and ritoky. I really like disformation's attempts to poke and ask questions. y0su is my weakest read of these 3, but feels like a solid town.
Can you define what you mean by "vibes" particularly with y0su and ritoky? Do you mean a tone read (which to my understanding most consider weak) or was there a particular quote/page/interaction that solidifies them as town?
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I'm back. Was hoping to get into the game yesterday and then something came up at home. Catching up.
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Looking at some of the shorter filters -
Stutters is someone that I think needs to wait until D2 or after to conclude. I don't know what his scum meta is and I played in NSM 7, and his play mirrors that here - not really into D1 and only really picked it up afterwards with more information. He was town in NSM 7 but his D1 play in of itself can come from either alignment. Null for now.
prplhz is someone who does jack all and posts nearly jack all in his scum games, Titanic being the most recent example.
But since he says he wasn't around, I'll focus on what he posted when he was:
On May 03 2015 08:40 prplhz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2015 08:34 The Shining wrote:
I'm going to go ahead and be as useless as always D1. Let's do this. Willing to lynch Super, FF, Scott so far.
Super wants to lynch Scott for opening with a town claim. FF and Super willing to lynch Scott off that. It's cuz Scott looks bad off of an unpressured town claim. FF and Super setting up to bus Scott d1 if needed.
Super, FF, Scott scumteam gg this is rubbing me the WRONG WAY
On May 03 2015 08:41 prplhz wrote:
like he's trying to make up some excuse for being useless and then he tries to solve the game and that like 30 posts into the game
I'm assuming he's drawing a scumread on Shining from his first quote. Thing is, I know both Shining and prplhz have played enough games to understand the concept of the "bullshitting phase of the game" and that post was sarcastic enough that prplhz probably should have picked up on it or at least waited to see what else Shining had or if he further pushed what he thought were his scumreads. To me that latter quote looks like prplhz is trying to make himself look good.
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Celestial, I have a townread on him. I know list posts in TL are generally frowned upon but his coming off with the list post to me is NAI - I was on the scumteam with him in Newbie LX, and he had mentioned to me he does those things as both alignments. His followup on Scott though is pretty solid (looking at Cel's filter, bottom of page 1, first post in page 2 of his filter) from the point he picks him off sheeping Superbia without looking into the case to the last quote he mentioned about his trying to get Celestial to back off him.
The other problem I have with Scott reading his filter (and after page 15 again) is not only that he didn't check Superbia's rationale/whatever but typically if you sheep someone you obviously want to be sure that the person in question is town. Going through his filter, he said he was going to keep an eye on the vets, Superbia being one of them. But if you look at page 1 of Scott's filter, there is not even an inference that he's concluding that Superbia is town nor does he appear confident in the former's reads before sheeping him. So that's another reason to scumread Scott for sure.
To further elaborate on Scott's approach to the game, as I've said in other games, going after inactives isn't bad in of itself, but only after you've townread most others and you're deeper into the game. It's generally never a good thing for town agenda to do it D1 and not everyone right now is active enough to even attempt PoE.
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On May 04 2015 20:59 sicklucker wrote:
Im pretty sure we coached him to doing a list post so I kind of expect him to do it.
Why are listposts frowned apon there my fav.
Same.
I didn't have a problem with it, but there were at least 2-3 comments I read from others that they didn't like listposts or that listposts were scummy.
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I've been pretty uncomfortable with Superbia's play - yea he's active, but I feel this is another example of him either misunderstanding or misleading people. I'll use this post as an example actually -
On May 03 2015 19:58 Superbia wrote:
Celestial likely mafai. Introductory lists posts like that more often come from mafia than from town. Mafia feel like they need to contribute and are usually afraid to make a casual entry.
This part I'm not going to consider either way, and if Superbia somehow is town, he doesn't know Celestial's style of play (whereas both SL and I do) so this part is reasonable for him not knowing Celestial. However we carry on -
On May 03 2015 19:58 Superbia wrote:The entire thing also starts off with an excuse: + Show Spoiler +On May 03 2015 11:34 -Celestial- wrote:
Hey guys. Sorry for the late entry. I've been somewhat distracted playing KanColle recently; there's an event on and I'm desperate to clear it, first event I've been in. Anyway there's probably just about enough to write something on most people now so...off we go.
Unfortunately in the time I've been away I've NOT been keeping an eye on games going on. Then again I tend to prefer any meta reading from games people have actually been in together. On with the show: What are you apologizing for? This feels like you yourself don't have any faith in your reads. This is likely because you had to fabricate them due to being mafia, because you feel confident enough to start a wagon on scott. Also, starting off with an apology for being late is pretty mafia.
This second part above, I simply interpreted Celestial just disregarding meta and drawing his own conclusions based on his following list post. Yes, what Superbia quoted there was preamble, and IIRC, Celestial did get a few scum reads for not posting prior to that list post. But his comment was also not the first on disregarding meta reads (I know one of the newbies mentioned that too, disinf maybe?), and that said I don't think there's anything wrong with an apology - he follows up with a list of reads based on what he has.
I think "not having any faith" in his reads isn't an appropriate comment at all, in fact I think he's just making Celestial look bad. The comment would be more applicable to someone who makes excuses like "well it's D1 and D1 reads are trash" then yeh saying that is fine, but this isn't the case. What part of the quote are you reading that way?
On May 03 2015 19:58 Superbia wrote:There's also a flagrant disparity between what you say about disformation and ritoky (which leads me to believe both are town if you end up being mafia): + Show Spoiler +On May 03 2015 11:34 -Celestial- wrote:
disformation starting post I REALLY don't like. However he IS making an attempt to start producing reads. Earnest newbie with a weak entry I think. Weakly town.
ritoky's sole post of note is an easy push on disformation. Other than that he's just posting nonsense and off-topic stuff. Coming across as pretty scummy to me; complete misdirection plays. So you say that you yourself did not like disformation's opening post, but you feel like ritoky is scummy for pushing on him? Is it not townie for ritoky to push on something that may very well be scummy? Furthermore, "easy push"? Since when are you so sure that disformation is town? Rest of your reads are pretty fluffy.
I looked at ritoky's opening post which I also thought was pretty bad
On May 03 2015 09:54 ritoky wrote:
i randomly clicked to a page, and there was a disformation guy or girl....w8 no girls on internet, must be guy. anywayz dat dude was liek full of smileyz and shit everywhere. i don't like people who spam emoticons. top scum read.
Then he mentions it's bullshit because he's loopy or whatever, but his later posts - particularly the one where he checks Superbia for not providing anything alignment indicative on SL aside from the pressure vote is quite townie to me. Ritoky that is.
But back to Superbia.
One of the things I've made clear in a lot of my games is that it's not the push on someone (esp a newbie or a weak player) that makes someone scummy, it's how that push is done. That said, looking at Superbia's quote, ritoky may have had a "bad" reason (smileys) to push on disinformation but from what I read of disinformation's entry post THAT IS NOT THE SAME REASON WHY CELESTIAL HAD A PROBLEM WITH THAT POST. He didn't comment on his smileys at all - his first post gave zero information and you can tell from Celestial's phrasing that his point on disinformation is JUST on that.
[spoiler]On May 03 2015 11:34 -Celestial- wrote:
disformation starting post I REALLY don't like. However he IS making an attempt to start producing reads. Earnest newbie with a weak entry I think. Weakly town.
And again, more context problems with Superbia's "easy push" - doesn't mean he's saying that disinformation or anyone is town.
Easy pushes generally mean the player is weak - that comment was made because he's new to TL (first game) and not because he was so sure disinformation is town. Even Celestial himself said "weakly town."
That post is quite scumlike behaviour from Superbia. It's so bad.
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So far, I have Superbia and Scott pretty red.
Shining, Celestial look town.
ritoky weak town lean.
prplhz slight scum lean.
Stutters is null, same for sicklucker.
I will look at disinformation, yosu, and ticktock next, after I get off this conference call.
At this point in time, I can vote either of Superbia or scott.
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On May 04 2015 20:45 sicklucker wrote:
I might just leave my vote on scott. First impresions are usually the best
Looking at why you voted Scott, I assume you mean his entry. No issues with your vote on Scott.
If so, what are your impressions of some of others' first posts?
Because Scott isn't the only one with a poor first entry to be honest.
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Damn, Celestial, I missed your case on Scott whilst I was on Superbia. I'll re-read after this call finishes.
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Voted Scott in the voting thread. Still on call here.
I want Superbia to respond when he's around.
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On May 04 2015 22:13 y0su wrote:
That said, I'm still not shaking the strange feeling that you're trying too hard to get a ML.. (hence I'm not jumping on the scott train yet.)
Have your feelings towards ritoky changed? I still see his "loopy" entrance as a red flag (as big if not bigger than people that haven't been posting).
I know you are new to the game, but someone making a scumread on someone early in the day and then pushing him throughout the day is considered a town tell across the board because it shows the person pushing the case believes in the case and he's not just faking it for survivability's sake.
If you think the reasoning behind the case is faulty (do you?) then that's another issue.
Regarding ritoky (and others) - as I said with sicklucker it's very possible to have a very poor entrance and then pick it up later on. Some people are good at spotting mafia off the first post, particularly the established players like marvellosity/Holyflare/JAT but this is a newbie game, so the calibre isn't expected to be the same.
Do you think ritoky looks bad from subsequent posts?
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On May 04 2015 22:21 Half the Sky wrote:
If you think the reasoning behind the case is faulty (do you?) then that's another issue.
EBWOP - clarification - do you (y0su) think Celestial's reasoning behind the case is faulty?
And if so, what are the specifics you have problems with?
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On May 04 2015 02:00 ritoky wrote:prp is town because i literally mind melded him here: Show nested quote +On May 03 2015 08:40 prplhz wrote:On May 03 2015 08:34 The Shining wrote:
I'm going to go ahead and be as useless as always D1. Let's do this. Willing to lynch Super, FF, Scott so far.
Super wants to lynch Scott for opening with a town claim. FF and Super willing to lynch Scott off that. It's cuz Scott looks bad off of an unpressured town claim. FF and Super setting up to bus Scott d1 if needed.
Super, FF, Scott scumteam gg this is rubbing me the WRONG WAY
Question for ritoky - prp has four posts. I took a different conclusion from this post. How do you know that Shining wasn't being sarcastic for him to rub you the wrong way? Opening hour/bullshit phase of the game, these comments were made.
(From your mind meld comment, I assume you had scummed Shining for this too.)
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EBWOP - And I mentioned his low post count largely because there's very little else you could use to draw that town conclusion.
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On May 04 2015 22:23 -Celestial- wrote:
ritoky is eh to me right now. I still don't like the joking around and there's a certain amount of circumstantial evidence linking him with Superbia. But he's also been making more of an effort that he was initially (admittedly that's not hard). Still leaning scum, but on balance I don't think his position has changed too much in my eyes. He's still scummy but still my weakest read and I could be convinced otherwise on him much more easily than scott or Superbia.
ritoky is a very good scum player, so I do fear him generally speaking. However, for this game, I am also taking into context he doesn't know some of the players as well as I do. For example his read on Shining is likely wrong - between hosting and playing with Shining, I know Shining to be a very emotional player as both alignments (though more so as town I think) so his tone doesn't bother me whereas ritoky is seeing Shining as overreacting. For him not knowing Shining (don't recall those two playing together) his read on Shining is reasonable.
The problem I do have with ritoky on this read is that he's willing to lynch Shining on what appears to be a tone read whereas earlier he's questioned Scott 3x in page 2 of his own filter, and then he indicates again he has a problem with Scott's gameplay. More substantive than a tone read. It should take precedence over a tone read. In theory anyways.
On May 04 2015 09:08 ritoky wrote:
overreact much? way too defensive in response to the tiniest of comments. as for why the way you phrase things bugs the living shit out of me; it is pretty much irrelevant to explain. you're just kinda like sqrtneg1 i think. everything you type regardless of content or alignment indicativeness just makes me want to lynch you. i need to train myself to try and read the content rather than just want to lynch you. for example: i avoided getting bothered here and noted your large overreaction, which pushes you toward being more scum.
Then I read sentences like the bolded and it very well could be a townie tripping over confirmation bias.
I like how ritoky questioned Superbia for not providing the alignment indicative info on SL though. He also seemed trying to find something on y0su in figuring his alignment. Though he couldn't conclude because he left open the fact y0su's gameplay was due to the fact he's newish and offered him advice. Could be done as either alignment.
For now, as I had stated, I still maintain that light townread on him. I'd have to see more.
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On May 04 2015 22:47 y0su wrote:
And if something is considered a town tell wouldn't scum jump on an opportunity to do it (if they thought they could pull it off)? I'd assume that especially in a newbie game a gamble like that would have less risk and more reward...
ML is how they win right?
I haven't found any fault in the case (again, first one I've read) and I have nothing but that uncomfortable feeling towards -c- keeping me from voting Scott...
Yes. In a 13-person setup, assuming no medic saves and no vigilante, scum need 4 mislynches to win.
Yes a top player can easily look town in a sea of scummy looking town players. But like I said, it's not THAT the push is happening, it's HOW the push is happening that usually differentiates town from scum. Earlier = more towny for example. More consistent pushes. There has to be solid evidence (i.e. a DT check) for him to back off, or a scum flip off one of his solid townreads to work backwards for someone to consider changing their read.
I gather that this "uncomfortable feeling" towards Celestial is a tone read, and I can infer that you have some sort of weak scum read based on his tone. But surely there's a post somewhere that has stoked this feeling given the content Celestial has pointed and the fact you have mentioned this feeling twice.
Can you point it out?
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EPT
