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On March 21 2015 07:02 Superbia wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 07:00 Palmar wrote:On March 21 2015 06:58 Superbia wrote:
Like you're one of the only people I don't dislike on that wagon atm Palmar.
I like HF's plan of letting Vigi(s) do whatever the fuck they want tonight. Maybe we confirm one, maybe we force mafia's hand in roleblocking a Vigi over a RB. if you think the wagon is bad, you should be voting the other. we're lynching one of them or the other tonight. I don't really care which one. It makes more sense that Vivax is the mafia, but Toad made a bad play if he's town so I'm fine with lynching him too. It's still possible that they're both town. I like HF's play. Let Vigi(s) do what they want, if mafia RB a vigi the tracker gets free reign, otherwise vigi(s) can confirm themselves (probably). Uh, what?
First of all, I'm not convinced that raynpelikoneet's claim is truthful. Second, let's imagine it is truthful, and the vigilantes are both still alive, and raynpelikoneet wasn't roleblocked. I don't see how this helps us at all?
Please explain.
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On March 21 2015 07:07 Breshke wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 07:04 Trfel wrote:On March 21 2015 07:02 Superbia wrote:On March 21 2015 07:00 Palmar wrote:On March 21 2015 06:58 Superbia wrote:
Like you're one of the only people I don't dislike on that wagon atm Palmar.
I like HF's plan of letting Vigi(s) do whatever the fuck they want tonight. Maybe we confirm one, maybe we force mafia's hand in roleblocking a Vigi over a RB. if you think the wagon is bad, you should be voting the other. we're lynching one of them or the other tonight. I don't really care which one. It makes more sense that Vivax is the mafia, but Toad made a bad play if he's town so I'm fine with lynching him too. It's still possible that they're both town. I like HF's play. Let Vigi(s) do what they want, if mafia RB a vigi the tracker gets free reign, otherwise vigi(s) can confirm themselves (probably). Uh, what? First of all, I'm not convinced that raynpelikoneet's claim is truthful. Second, let's imagine it is truthful, and the vigilantes are both still alive, and raynpelikoneet wasn't roleblocked. I don't see how this helps us at all? Please explain. tracker tracks a vigi. They can see if they shoot someone or if they are roleblocked etc. This plan fails though if the mafia who CC'd is not the mafia vig Ok, let's imagine that mafia roleblocks the town vigilante. If the tracker tracks the roleblocked vigilante, then town gets no information. If the tracker tracks the mafia, then as long as that mafia isn't carrying KP (reasonable assumption), then they won't get anything from that either.
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On March 21 2015 07:10 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 07:09 Trfel wrote:On March 21 2015 07:07 Breshke wrote:On March 21 2015 07:04 Trfel wrote:On March 21 2015 07:02 Superbia wrote:On March 21 2015 07:00 Palmar wrote:On March 21 2015 06:58 Superbia wrote:
Like you're one of the only people I don't dislike on that wagon atm Palmar.
I like HF's plan of letting Vigi(s) do whatever the fuck they want tonight. Maybe we confirm one, maybe we force mafia's hand in roleblocking a Vigi over a RB. if you think the wagon is bad, you should be voting the other. we're lynching one of them or the other tonight. I don't really care which one. It makes more sense that Vivax is the mafia, but Toad made a bad play if he's town so I'm fine with lynching him too. It's still possible that they're both town. I like HF's play. Let Vigi(s) do what they want, if mafia RB a vigi the tracker gets free reign, otherwise vigi(s) can confirm themselves (probably). Uh, what? First of all, I'm not convinced that raynpelikoneet's claim is truthful. Second, let's imagine it is truthful, and the vigilantes are both still alive, and raynpelikoneet wasn't roleblocked. I don't see how this helps us at all? Please explain. tracker tracks a vigi. They can see if they shoot someone or if they are roleblocked etc. This plan fails though if the mafia who CC'd is not the mafia vig Ok, let's imagine that mafia roleblocks the town vigilante. If the tracker tracks the roleblocked vigilante, then town gets no information. If the tracker tracks the mafia, then as long as that mafia isn't carrying KP (reasonable assumption), then they won't get anything from that either. and that makes me mafia how? It's obviously completely unrelated.
The only way this makes you mafia is because you are being defensive to the point of continuously misinterpreting what I'm saying.
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On March 21 2015 07:12 raynpelikoneet wrote:
why am i mafia again Trfel? I just don't see all that much reason to believe your claim. That's all. I'm suspicious of you because your play has seemed very strange and illogical, and a lot of people were suspecting you earlier (I believe for not doing very much).
I'm not worrying about you at this time because you're not the lynch for today.
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On March 21 2015 07:17 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 07:15 Trfel wrote:On March 21 2015 07:12 raynpelikoneet wrote:
why am i mafia again Trfel? I just don't see all that much reason to believe your claim. That's all. I'm suspicious of you because your play has seemed very strange and illogical, and a lot of people were suspecting you earlier (I believe for not doing very much). I'm not worrying about you at this time because you're not the lynch for today. but you read vivax scum, there is no reason fro you to throw me there when my claim is totally unrealted to his/toad's. So explain, why am i there in that post? You don't even want to really lynch Vivax in that post. I was responding to someone who was using the tracker as a reason to not lynch both vigilantes. It makes sense that my doubt of the validity of the tracker claim would have an affect on this argument.
I need to leave for a while, I'll be back right before EOD. But I'm feeling okay with a Vivax lynch here.
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Vivax. You denied it when I said that you were open to the possibility of two town vigilantes. Now you're saying that you're open to the thought.
What?
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On March 21 2015 07:43 Vivax wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 07:42 Trfel wrote:
Vivax. You denied it when I said that you were open to the possibility of two town vigilantes. Now you're saying that you're open to the thought.
What? What's the first thing you think when you have a role and get CCd that role? To be honest, I don't know.
But I don't see how it is relevant to what I posted at all.
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On March 21 2015 07:45 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 07:44 Palmar wrote:
I'm behind again.
What should I be doing? Vote for Vivax unless you want to talk about vigis all day again tomorrow as neither of them die and one shot probably gets rbed. This is where I'm at, too.
I just don't see this getting resolved without using a lynch.
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On March 21 2015 07:46 Vivax wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 07:44 Trfel wrote:On March 21 2015 07:43 Vivax wrote:On March 21 2015 07:42 Trfel wrote:
Vivax. You denied it when I said that you were open to the possibility of two town vigilantes. Now you're saying that you're open to the thought.
What? What's the first thing you think when you have a role and get CCd that role? To be honest, I don't know. But I don't see how it is relevant to what I posted at all. You think the guy who's CCing you is mafia. But in this case it only makes sense for Toad if it means that a mafia would die guaranteed if I don't get lynched. Like it makes sense for me to not fakeclaim vig out of all the roles if I was mafia. I reacted, I thought, I concluded. You kept insisting that Toadesstern was obvious mafia and we could only have one vigilante for well over an hour. This seems unlikely.
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Vivax, I wasn't wanting to lynch you before the claimfest began. It was Toadesstern's counterclaim and your play after that that made me want to lynch you.
If you're town, I'm sorry.
I need to run and grab dinner really fast, I'll try to be back for the deadline.
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On March 21 2015 08:07 Vivax wrote:![[image loading]](http://i.giphy.com/4bpgqEqmOTwuk.gif) BETTER A VANILLA THAN ME. Now I can shoot Toad. Let's start making plans on how to solve this situation without wasting blues. What about the part where you just said that Toadesstern was probably town, and there could be two vigilantes?
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Not very happy with Palmar right now.
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On March 21 2015 23:56 VisceraEyes wrote:
Vivax catch on Trfel so good. Hm? It's not good, I already explained why it's not good, before he posted......
On March 21 2015 07:52 Trfel wrote:
Vivax, I wasn't wanting to lynch you before the claimfest began. It was Toadesstern's counterclaim and your play after that that made me want to lynch you. Yes, I was (and still am) open to the possibility of two vigilantes. Yes, I wasn't wanting to lynch Vivax earlier. However, after Toadesstern counterclaimed, Vivax's play was extremely weird. He jumped around without logic, and his play was riddled with inconsistency. This is rather obvious. Because of this, and because I don't think the vigilante problem will resolve itself at night, I decided that lynching Vivax wasn't bad. This was completely unrelated to my willingness to accept the possibility of multiple vigilantes.
I tried to look for alternative lynches, however without having actually read the thread, that was difficult. And no one wanted to talk about alternative lynches at all, at least until Holyflare came.
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Oh, and one other thing....
Vivax seems to have an extremely incorrect view of my level of play.
Vivax was my coach in my first game ever, and then he played in my second game ever (Carol of the Bells). We haven't played in the same game since then. In my first game, I was killed Night 1, and in my second game, I led a lynch on scum and was killed Night 2.
Since then, I have led a large number of mislynches, not truly led a scum lynch, and was only night killed once (due to incorrect reputation on Night 1, I was on a plane for much of Day 1 in that game). My two most recent games were losses in 3p and 5p LYLO, due to me not being able to make correct reads.
Vivax, don't shoot me. I'm town. You really don't want to do that. But if I spend all my time trying to convince you not to shoot me, I'll just derail the thread, and I won't be able to find scum. I hope you can understand why I felt your play post-Toadesstern counterclaim was scummy and contradictory.
I'm going to go read this game, and I'm going to try to avoid interacting with the thread so as to not distract myself.
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I did not decide that there could only be one town vigilante. That is NOT why I decided to lynch Vivax.
I had two reasons for lynching Vivax.
1. Poor and inconsistent play after Toadesstern's counter-claim.
2. Helping to resolve the vigilante mess, since night actions are very likely not to do it.
Much of my reason for townreading Vivax was because of the non cc'd vigilante claim. Other than that, I did not have a good town read on Vivax, I just didn't want to lynch him on Day 1.. This is a significant difference.On March 21 2015 05:04 Trfel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 05:03 Vivax wrote:
Ok now that enough mafia or idiots are piled up on me I hardclaim Drax. Well...... ##vote raynpelikoneet for now. I wasn't really liking a Vivax lynch anyway (based on the first 4 pages of Vivax's filter and Damdred's case). Raynpelikoneet's filter feels weaker. "I wasn't really liking a Vivax lynch" isn't the same as "Vivax is town".
I would never have decided to lynch Toadesstern there. Toadesstern counter-claimed when that would be a poor play for mafia to do. He was very forceful about pushing the lynch, as well, and I had a light townread on him for his push on Palmar (despite disagreeing with the Palmar scumread).
After both you and Toadesstern claimed, Toadesstern was never a lynch possibility. It was either you or someone else. And your play made me confident that you were the best lynch (in addition to not liking the Bill Murray push).
I know I said I wasn't going to interact, but I'm going to get shot.... and I can't allow that to happen.
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On March 22 2015 00:54 Vivax wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2015 00:11 Trfel wrote:On March 21 2015 23:56 VisceraEyes wrote:
Vivax catch on Trfel so good. Hm? It's not good, I already explained why it's not good, before he posted...... On March 21 2015 07:52 Trfel wrote:
Vivax, I wasn't wanting to lynch you before the claimfest began. It was Toadesstern's counterclaim and your play after that that made me want to lynch you. Yes, I was (and still am) open to the possibility of two vigilantes. Yes, I wasn't wanting to lynch Vivax earlier. However, after Toadesstern counterclaimed, Vivax's play was extremely weird. He jumped around without logic, and his play was riddled with inconsistency. This is rather obvious. Because of this, and because I don't think the vigilante problem will resolve itself at night, I decided that lynching Vivax wasn't bad. This was completely unrelated to my willingness to accept the possibility of multiple vigilantes. I tried to look for alternative lynches, however without having actually read the thread, that was difficult. And no one wanted to talk about alternative lynches at all, at least until Holyflare came. This is generic bullshit about inconsistency and illogical play. You voted for me before asking me out about the inconsistency so it can't have existed previously but now you bring it up. The inconsistency was that I reconsidered on the 2 x vig version? Well, you decided I was scum before, and tried to push me more afterwards. You claimed my push on Toad was illogical when I kept posting about him through almost the entire day. Yes, I voted for you before you elaborated on the multiple vigilante possibility. I referred to the reasons I ultimately voted you, not initially. I think that's where this whole confusion starts from....
Much of the reason I voted for you initially was because I needed to have my vote somewhere (the deadline was getting close). With Toadesstern's counterclaim, I felt you were the best choice at that time. I tried to search for alternative wagons, however without me having read the game, and no one else being willing to discuss alternatives, that wasn't really possible. Your actions were rather scummy, and so I kept my vote on you.
I don't understand what exactly you are scumreading me for.
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Vivax, let's assume that we are both town, and that I made a really bad play. I've made bad plays before.
So, now you want to shoot me, because I made an error and wanted to lynch you. Despite a bunch of other people who think I am town.
If you really are town, you shouldn't be using your vigilante bullet for personal grudges. You are experienced, you know very well that people are wrong a whole lot in mafia. You can shoot me here, but that won't gain you anything other than getting rid of someone who wanted to lynch you. And it will lose you your chance to kill mafia, and it will remove one more town from the game.
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On March 22 2015 01:01 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2015 01:00 Trfel wrote:On March 22 2015 00:54 Vivax wrote:On March 22 2015 00:11 Trfel wrote:On March 21 2015 23:56 VisceraEyes wrote:
Vivax catch on Trfel so good. Hm? It's not good, I already explained why it's not good, before he posted...... On March 21 2015 07:52 Trfel wrote:
Vivax, I wasn't wanting to lynch you before the claimfest began. It was Toadesstern's counterclaim and your play after that that made me want to lynch you. Yes, I was (and still am) open to the possibility of two vigilantes. Yes, I wasn't wanting to lynch Vivax earlier. However, after Toadesstern counterclaimed, Vivax's play was extremely weird. He jumped around without logic, and his play was riddled with inconsistency. This is rather obvious. Because of this, and because I don't think the vigilante problem will resolve itself at night, I decided that lynching Vivax wasn't bad. This was completely unrelated to my willingness to accept the possibility of multiple vigilantes. I tried to look for alternative lynches, however without having actually read the thread, that was difficult. And no one wanted to talk about alternative lynches at all, at least until Holyflare came. This is generic bullshit about inconsistency and illogical play. You voted for me before asking me out about the inconsistency so it can't have existed previously but now you bring it up. The inconsistency was that I reconsidered on the 2 x vig version? Well, you decided I was scum before, and tried to push me more afterwards. You claimed my push on Toad was illogical when I kept posting about him through almost the entire day. Yes, I voted for you before you elaborated on the multiple vigilante possibility. I referred to the reasons I ultimately voted you, not initially. I think that's where this whole confusion starts from.... Much of the reason I voted for you initially was because I needed to have my vote somewhere (the deadline was getting close). With Toadesstern's counterclaim, I felt you were the best choice at that time. I tried to search for alternative wagons, however without me having read the game, and no one else being willing to discuss alternatives, that wasn't really possible. Your actions were rather scummy, and so I kept my vote on you. I don't understand what exactly you are scumreading me for. "Much of the reason I voted for you initially was because I needed to have my vote somewhere" "I felt you were the best choice at that time." "I tried to search for alternative wagons" " Your actions were rather scummy, and so I kept my vote on you."  Look, it's not the best vote progression. But from someone who didn't read the game?
1. Vivax was counterclaimed, thus I vote for Vivax.
While recognizing the possibility of multiple vigilantes, there is also a very distinct possibility that there is only one. In addition, some experienced players (specifically Vivax and Toadesstern themselves) were very convinced that there was only one vigilante. Vivax was very stubborn towards Toadesstern, and this played a reasonable role in my initial decision to vote for Vivax.
2. I searched for alternative wagons to Vivax and Toadesstern.
This is exactly what a townie would do? And what a townie did?
3. Vivax continued to be stubborn and inconsistent, so I kept my vote on Vivax.
I don't see how you can convincingly refute this at all. You can say that Vivax was frustrated because of the counterclaim and not thinking clearly and with complete logic, and that's acceptable from a town point of view. However, I don't think it's more likely than Vivax being a scrambling scum.
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On March 22 2015 01:06 Holyflare wrote:
trfel how can anyone discuss things with you if you just said you hadn't read the game? if you "tried" to look for alternative wagons, how did you go about that?
have you read anything yet? As I said, I tried to look for alternative wagons by asking people for summaries of the wagons. I specifically remember asking about sicklucker and LightningStrike. But no one was interested at all, no one responded, so I let that drop.
I've read the first 40 pages of the game carefully. I read from some page before the claims through the lynch, and I've read the last few pages. I've glanced through a few filters and cases that people said were important.
I did what I thought was best with the information I had. Being well over 50 pages down when the lynch was happening, I thought it would be better to get summaries from other players and reread key parts of the game than trying to read the entire game or just reading filters and making my decisions 100% on my own (no context that way).
I do want to go read the game, but if I get shot, there isn't much point of that. If town!Vivax shoots me, that would be extremely bad for town, so unfortunately that takes precedence over trying to read the game. If Vivax agrees not to shoot me, the first thing I will do is stop posting and go read the game properly.
I don't have any reads on anyone at the moment, it would be premature for me to do so until I read the entire game, and then reread several filters more carefully.
+ Show Spoiler [If you must have reads...] +Here's what I'm thinking right now, though again, my reads are quite likely to change once I get some more time.
I still lean mafia on Vivax, although it seems that his actions post-lynch were townie, and I haven't read that part of the game. Artanis[Xp] switched to townread on Vivax, so that indicates that Vivax is probably town, even though I don't know why and my own, limited read says he is mafia.
I'm still skeptical of raynpelikoneet. Not sold on the tracker claim, not sold on his level of play. It seems noticeably below his play in Mini Mafia Down Under 1. But the night actions ought to help with raynpelikoneet.
I'm somewhat suspicious of Holyflare as well. I like how he was very aggressive to start wagons, notably his early pushes on Alakaslam and sicklucker. However, I don't think the sicklucker push was terribly alignment indicative (of sicklucker), and the Alakaslam push boiled down to a few misunderstandings (as both Holyflare and Alakaslam later realized). In addition, Holyflare is aggressive as mafia as well (Linux Mafia). The one strange thing about Holyflare is his push onto Bill Murray. That was a pretty bad push. In a critical stage of the game (two claimed vigilantes up for lynch), Holyflare made a (self admitted) terrible push against a fairly inactive player. And now he blames it on being drunk. Were it not for the Bill Murray push, I would put Holyflare as town, but now I'm not so sure....
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On March 21 2015 04:36 Trfel wrote:
Sorry, real life jumped up and got frustrating....
Based on the voting, it seems that Vivax and LightningStrike are most likely to be lynched. Are there any other commonly accepted lynch targets?
Damdred wrote a case on Vivax, so I will go read that. Whose filter should I read to see the LightningStrike case?
Thanks. This is me trying to figure out what the main wagons are, so I can be more focused. I obviously wasn't in a position to start a wagon of my own. I did the same thing in my first Newbie Mafia game (third game ever, as town), and I think it's better than trying to read the whole game when the lynch is near.
I considered a raynpelikoneet lynch several times, but people didn't seem to like it, so I let it drop.
On March 21 2015 06:18 Trfel wrote:
What about potentially a sicklucker or LightningStrike lynch?
Palmar, why did you switch to Vivax from Toadesstern? No one responded to this.
From here, Holyflare started his Bill Murray push, but by this time I was more confident in my Vivax scumread and I didn't see why years-old meta would make Bill Murray scum at all.
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EPT
