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On January 03 2015 08:50 KelsierSC wrote:
Eden you made this giant post on bats with 3 reasons for calling him scum. I think your second case is good because I made it.
My question is this. If you have 3 reasons for calling bats scum right at the deadline why didn't you bother to read him or make a case on him earlier.
It feels like TMI
Someone else brought him up as a possible kill when there was roughly an hour or so left. I want to say Artanis without looking, but I don't know. I don't remember remembering anything batsnacks had done to that point, and I remember saying I would read batsnacks instead of someone else (I think Lazermonkey and Vivax?). I read his filter, examined the context of the posts I thought were important and made the case in a larger post.
I certainly wouldn't call it "right at the deadline," I think I made it with about 50 minutes left in the day, with at least a half-dozen people online to see it. Close, but not so close that people didn't have time to evaluate it for themselves.
I have to admit I don't really understand where your question is going.
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On January 03 2015 08:52 justanothertownie wrote:
Eden, would you say your towngame changed since heavyweight? If the answer is yes then how?
Absolutely, in large part because of it. I never had a handle on much of Heavyweight as it was going on. I just got myself towncleared day 1 by being spammy and trolly and coasted until everyone else who was talking died, and I got so wrapped up in trying to be spammy and trolly and funny that I forgot about actually playing the game. I did what I could to salvage it and tried to find the mafia at the end, but I was so far behind the eight ball that it's doubtful I would have really come back to win even if the mafia team hadn't played absurdly well.
This began a decline in my online town play with some egregiously disastrous mislynches I drove and mafia I defended, because I took the wrong lessons from the game. Here's what I should have learned from it and did learn after having another disastrous performance recently in my Facebook group:
- I was not engaged enough in digging into the content of posts. I got away from asking questions and following up on things and found myself mostly sheeping things that sounded good late in phases. On the odd occasion I was questioned about things I found myself unable to articulate convincingly why I believed certain things I did. I've tried to refocus myself toward more pointed questioning, and I hope it's shown in some of my interrogating this game.
- I was too engaged with the game in terms of time. I averaged a post every 15 minutes for the entire span of the game. That's fucking ridiculous. I got obsessive with the game and checked it nearly every waking hour I had. When you work overnights with an Internet connection, as I did back then, that's a lot of waking hours. I spammed a bunch and made the thread shitty to read and when I did try to follow up on something (ex: stupid tunnels on Holyflare and marv), I never gave myself a chance to look at it with a fresh set of eyes. You can't genuinely look at something with a fresh set of eyes when you're checking the game every 2 hours. Combined with working another job where I can't readily access the game, one thing I've done differently this game is force myself to be away from the thread at times, so that I can give myself a reset and stop myself from chasing my tail. It's made keeping up a little difficult because there's a lot of posts in this game, but I'm doing what I can.
- I got too paranoid about my townreads. My constant back-and-forth about Holyflare being town then Holyflare being mafia etc. was one example. I don't talk about townreads as much because I don't really see the need to do so, but where I have come around to townreading people, like Doc for example, I'm making myself trust the read even if there's a voice in the back of my head casting doubt on it. I've mislynched out of paranoia too many townies who I obviously and correctly townread, and I've decided that plays like your play in WHC, where I get totally bamboozled, are too few and far between to be worth worrying about.
- Time. That was five months ago. I feel like I've grown a lot personally, become a lot more mindful, etc. etc. I could go on here but five months is a long time for a 20-something in terms of maturity.
I think that hit the high points, if you care to hear more I can go dig up FB chats from the past 2 weeks and talk more about individual happenings but I think this should suffice.
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On January 03 2015 09:07 IAmRobik wrote:
I can't believe you just spent 627 words describing how you've changed since a game 3 months ago. Thanks for wasting peoples time. And thanks to JAT for asking a useless question that cause him to waste peoples time
Thanks for spending time to run a word count on that post. What would you like to discuss instead?
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On January 03 2015 08:56 KelsierSC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2015 08:53 Eden1892 wrote:On January 03 2015 08:50 KelsierSC wrote:
Eden you made this giant post on bats with 3 reasons for calling him scum. I think your second case is good because I made it.
My question is this. If you have 3 reasons for calling bats scum right at the deadline why didn't you bother to read him or make a case on him earlier.
It feels like TMI Someone else brought him up as a possible kill when there was roughly an hour or so left. I want to say Artanis without looking, but I don't know. I don't remember remembering anything batsnacks had done to that point, and I remember saying I would read batsnacks instead of someone else (I think Lazermonkey and Vivax?). I read his filter, examined the context of the posts I thought were important and made the case in a larger post. I certainly wouldn't call it "right at the deadline," I think I made it with about 50 minutes left in the day, with at least a half-dozen people online to see it. Close, but not so close that people didn't have time to evaluate it for themselves. I have to admit I don't really understand where your question is going. my point is this. You have absolutely nothing on bats and no read but then you come up with a whole bunch of reasons to scum read him. Why weren't you looking at him earlier since you were such a headless chicken before then. why does point 1 make bats scummy? why does point 3?
I don't recall saying anything about being a headless chicken. As I said, I didn't remember remembering anything batsnacks had said. When people are talking about killing someone, and you find yourself with absolutely no impression of them, would you not go reread them? (Especially if their filter is only 3 pgs long. If his filter had been longer I mightn't even have bothered, given time constraints. I think I said something about that with Lazermonkey, want to say marv said that he was a "background player" which means looking at basically everything he said and the few pages around it. With an hour, that's a lot of work for so little time.)
As for "points 1 and 3" you're gonna have to explain your breakdown of my case to me. I couldn't remember breaking it down into three concise points and on rereading it, I didn't.
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On January 03 2015 09:10 IAmRobik wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2015 09:09 Eden1892 wrote:On January 03 2015 09:07 IAmRobik wrote:
I can't believe you just spent 627 words describing how you've changed since a game 3 months ago. Thanks for wasting peoples time. And thanks to JAT for asking a useless question that cause him to waste peoples time Thanks for spending time to run a word count on that post. What would you like to discuss instead? You're welcome. I'd like to discuss who is/isn't mafia instead of why/how your gameplay changed. Maybe I'm asking too much
Well, you don't need my permission. (Do you?) What are you waiting for?
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On January 03 2015 09:17 IAmRobik wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2015 09:12 Eden1892 wrote:On January 03 2015 09:10 IAmRobik wrote:On January 03 2015 09:09 Eden1892 wrote:On January 03 2015 09:07 IAmRobik wrote:
I can't believe you just spent 627 words describing how you've changed since a game 3 months ago. Thanks for wasting peoples time. And thanks to JAT for asking a useless question that cause him to waste peoples time Thanks for spending time to run a word count on that post. What would you like to discuss instead? You're welcome. I'd like to discuss who is/isn't mafia instead of why/how your gameplay changed. Maybe I'm asking too much Well, you don't need my permission. (Do you?) What are you waiting for? i've given my thoughts, but you talking about how your game has changed isn't providing anything to the game. It's a waste of fucking space and now it's wasting my time talking about how it was a waste of space and how JAT should ask better questions
You said this about one of post of mine in a side tangent literally at the same time as multiple other, perhaps more directly salient lines of conversation were going on. You are just as guilty of "wasting time" on it as we are since you could have just left it alone and spent those posts talking about whatever you feel was a better use of your time.
And that's assuming all of that was indeed a waste, JAT apparently found it useful and for reasons outside the game I found it incredibly helpful as well (although I'll acknowledge that doesn't do anything for you in this game right now).
Please restate your most important thought right now for me.
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reminder for sicklucker: I need answers to these. No answer means I probably have to fail you, waiting longer than necessary to answer will affect your grade in ways that will make your parents scowl at your report card.
On January 03 2015 08:34 Eden1892 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2015 08:21 sicklucker wrote:On January 03 2015 08:12 Eden1892 wrote:On January 03 2015 07:56 sicklucker wrote:
@edin im a math person and not confident in day 1 reads. When 4 people I believe to be town agree on a lynch I will follow their instincts over my own. Thats all their really is to it. If 4 people I believe are town of 6 think player x is mafia he is the most likely mafia in my mind. Would you describe yourself as not confident in your read on geript on day 1? Rereading the vote counts I believe the 4 town reads you cited were me, Doc, Arty and Damdred. Is that correct? If so, can you explain for me why you townread Artanis day 1? If not, can you tell me who they were? Correct. Like artanis was the one who called out gerit for his half ass poor read on me. From my pov hes correct so for day one hes totally town could be pocketed but less likely I need an answer to the first question in my last post here. Would you describe yourself as not confident in your read on geript on day 1? Can you elaborate a bit on what read Artanis called out from geript that made Artanis seem town to you?
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On January 03 2015 09:25 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Eden I thought at first was just nice but he always trying too hard not to ruffle feathers and seems to lack too much confidence at this point in the game. he seemed more confident in the first two hours of the game
I wouldn't say I lack confidence, but I am on principle trying not to ruffle feathers, yes. There's another long-winded explanation for this involving out-of-game stuff that will give Robik an aneurysm if I explain though. 
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On January 03 2015 09:31 IAmRobik wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2015 09:28 Eden1892 wrote:On January 03 2015 09:17 IAmRobik wrote:On January 03 2015 09:12 Eden1892 wrote:On January 03 2015 09:10 IAmRobik wrote:On January 03 2015 09:09 Eden1892 wrote:On January 03 2015 09:07 IAmRobik wrote:
I can't believe you just spent 627 words describing how you've changed since a game 3 months ago. Thanks for wasting peoples time. And thanks to JAT for asking a useless question that cause him to waste peoples time Thanks for spending time to run a word count on that post. What would you like to discuss instead? You're welcome. I'd like to discuss who is/isn't mafia instead of why/how your gameplay changed. Maybe I'm asking too much Well, you don't need my permission. (Do you?) What are you waiting for? i've given my thoughts, but you talking about how your game has changed isn't providing anything to the game. It's a waste of fucking space and now it's wasting my time talking about how it was a waste of space and how JAT should ask better questions You said this about one of post of mine in a side tangent literally at the same time as multiple other, perhaps more directly salient lines of conversation were going on. You are just as guilty of "wasting time" on it as we are since you could have just left it alone and spent those posts talking about whatever you feel was a better use of your time. And that's assuming all of that was indeed a waste, JAT apparently found it useful and for reasons outside the game I found it incredibly helpful as well (although I'll acknowledge that doesn't do anything for you in this game right now). Please restate your most important thought right now for me. I'm obivously bringing it up becuase I believe if JAT is more scummy cause he's pretending to participate as opposed to actually participating
Well, yes, I put that together. Sort of. I actually noticed that your point seemed to be less "Therefore, JAT is suspicious" and more "Therefore, JAT asks bad questions."
I admit I haven't paid careful attention to your suspects. Excepting this, what was your view of JAT, and what is your view of him now?
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Man, come on. Don't be like this, Robik. Please?
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Kelsier, this is the second error of fact you've made about my case, both of them pretty significant. I didn't say everything batsnacks had done was suspicious. I pointed out a few things that were.
You said you would read my case and give me critiques of it. When is this going to happen?
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On January 03 2015 09:36 KelsierSC wrote:
eden you case was roughly
1) bats read on robik was weird
2) his misrepresenting chyz
3) his last pages not having anything substantiaal
I guess that's a decent breakdown, but I still find it misrepresenting to say that I broke it down into those three subsections, when it clearly (to me) reads more as a freeflowing assessment of batsnacks. Doubly so when you start couching it in terms of "isn't it weird how he had these 3 points he was instantly ready to make on batsnacks," as you've essentially been looking to do.
(1) is not quite correct. The read was off, as I explained; what made it suspicious to me is that there wasn't any followup to it, nor did it seem any other suspect had commanded his attention to distract him from following up. It just kinda gets dropped without any explanation. I admit I wasn't as clear on this as I should have been, though.
(2) is also not quite correct, and I feel like it's more clearly not quite correct than your reading of (1). Again, it's this attempt to read/contribute something about Chyz that doesn't make much sense that's weird, and the lack of meaningful direction or followup to it that's suspicious. I did call it a "horrible misinterpretation" but that's not why I found it suspicious.
(3) is pretty much correct, and is indeed suspicious given (1) and (2) constitute his main focuses in the thread.
And while it's not in the case itself, I feel it would be remiss to overlook the point I hammered home the most in my arguing for batsnacks to be lynched, which was that batsnacks was defaulting to a policy lynch on Chyz and pointedly refusing to tell me whether or not he actually thought Chyz was mafia.
And yeah, I know you're reading it, my point is that you've made multiple significant errors of fact and that you're not reading the case fairly. You entered your read of it wanting to find a way to make it fit into your preconceived notion that I came out of nowhere with 3 points I'd been sitting on in order to bury a townie, instead of reading it with a genuine interest in determining my alignment and the alignment of the people that followed my vote onto batsnacks.
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On January 03 2015 09:40 Vivax wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2015 09:32 Eden1892 wrote:On January 03 2015 09:25 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Eden I thought at first was just nice but he always trying too hard not to ruffle feathers and seems to lack too much confidence at this point in the game. he seemed more confident in the first two hours of the game I wouldn't say I lack confidence, but I am on principle trying not to ruffle feathers, yes. There's another long-winded explanation for this involving out-of-game stuff that will give Robik an aneurysm if I explain though. Do you remember that monologue you started when DrH gave you ways of suspicion? Care to explain why you'd somehow talk like you're silently making the narrative up to yourself other than simply calling these things out in the thread and get DrH or anyone else to get some feedback on it?
What did you think me posting that list of reasons I found Doc suspicious was for, other than calling them out in the thread and getting feedback on them? If I simply needed a mental note to remember to revisit Doc in the morning, I'd have written it on my notebook and checked it in the morning, no post needed. The point of that post was (a) to highlight it for other people so they could discuss it while I went to bed, and (b) to give a clean reference point when I inevitably revisited it tomorrow, anticipating that just bringing it up cold turkey would be more confusing than helpful.
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On January 03 2015 10:05 Vivax wrote:
Kinda bugs me how Eden first scumreads Doc, then scumreads Chyz, then goes on with saying "One or the other is mafia" when they have been in such a clińch. Excluding a bussing here cause of that ragequit from Chyz. But I feel like Eden has been way less vocal about DrH than say TheCyyz.
Er... sorry, what was the end point here? I know what you're referencing but I'm not following what you mean. I scumread Doc about an hour into d1 for reasons I don't remember now, I scumread Chyz for his entry post. Don't remember exactly when I said "one or the other is mafia" (fairly certain it was in the morning/early afternoon of NYE my time, which would be first half of d1) so I don't remember what prompted me to say it, but I do remember saying this. It ended up not being important because both Doc and Chyz helped me clarify my reads on them with certain other actions later into d1.
Where are you going here? It is a little odd to me that you're bringing up some things I said about Doc and Chyz from relatively early in d1 that aren't really relevant to my reads on them now.
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On January 03 2015 09:52 KelsierSC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2015 09:47 Eden1892 wrote:On January 03 2015 09:36 KelsierSC wrote:
eden you case was roughly
1) bats read on robik was weird
2) his misrepresenting chyz
3) his last pages not having anything substantiaal I guess that's a decent breakdown, but I still find it misrepresenting to say that I broke it down into those three subsections, when it clearly (to me) reads more as a freeflowing assessment of batsnacks. Doubly so when you start couching it in terms of "isn't it weird how he had these 3 points he was instantly ready to make on batsnacks," as you've essentially been looking to do. (1) is not quite correct. The read was off, as I explained; what made it suspicious to me is that there wasn't any followup to it, nor did it seem any other suspect had commanded his attention to distract him from following up. It just kinda gets dropped without any explanation. I admit I wasn't as clear on this as I should have been, though. (2) is also not quite correct, and I feel like it's more clearly not quite correct than your reading of (1). Again, it's this attempt to read/contribute something about Chyz that doesn't make much sense that's weird, and the lack of meaningful direction or followup to it that's suspicious. I did call it a "horrible misinterpretation" but that's not why I found it suspicious. (3) is pretty much correct, and is indeed suspicious given (1) and (2) constitute his main focuses in the thread. And while it's not in the case itself, I feel it would be remiss to overlook the point I hammered home the most in my arguing for batsnacks to be lynched, which was that batsnacks was defaulting to a policy lynch on Chyz and pointedly refusing to tell me whether or not he actually thought Chyz was mafia. And yeah, I know you're reading it, my point is that you've made multiple significant errors of fact and that you're not reading the case fairly. You entered your read of it wanting to find a way to make it fit into your preconceived notion that I came out of nowhere with 3 points I'd been sitting on in order to bury a townie, instead of reading it with a genuine interest in determining my alignment and the alignment of the people that followed my vote onto batsnacks. that is how the case looked broken down to me eden, just how it felt in my mind. I think you defended your case pretty well and you are right it wasnt just before deadline. you feel town
Enh... that felt a little quick. You seemed awful sure earlier.
I'll sort it out later I guess.
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On January 03 2015 10:31 Vivax wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2015 10:14 Eden1892 wrote:On January 03 2015 10:05 Vivax wrote:
Kinda bugs me how Eden first scumreads Doc, then scumreads Chyz, then goes on with saying "One or the other is mafia" when they have been in such a clińch. Excluding a bussing here cause of that ragequit from Chyz. But I feel like Eden has been way less vocal about DrH than say TheCyyz. Er... sorry, what was the end point here? I know what you're referencing but I'm not following what you mean. I scumread Doc about an hour into d1 for reasons I don't remember now, I scumread Chyz for his entry post. Don't remember exactly when I said "one or the other is mafia" (fairly certain it was in the morning/early afternoon of NYE my time, which would be first half of d1) so I don't remember what prompted me to say it, but I do remember saying this. It ended up not being important because both Doc and Chyz helped me clarify my reads on them with certain other actions later into d1. Where are you going here? It is a little odd to me that you're bringing up some things I said about Doc and Chyz from relatively early in d1 that aren't really relevant to my reads on them now. Would you kindly point out how Doc and Cyz helped you clarify your reads on them and what the outcome was?
Sure.
Doc pushed hella hard on Chyz and seemed to genuinely believe his case instead of just tunneling for sake of having something to do. I read him as town for this, and although I can see how his actions are not per se inconsistent with him being mafia (unless Chyz is mafia...), I still got the impression that it was a townie push instead of a mafia push. There was just a moment where I was reading Doc's push and was like "This guy is town."
Chyz I've talked about more explicitly, I thought he was town because I didn't really see how the last 3 posts he made came together from a mafia POV. Check his filter and you'll see what I mean (or check my filter shortly before I made my case on batsnacks, somewhere on p3 I think, and you'll see me showing you what I mean). There's this long pbp case on Lazermonkey that screamed town-that-thinks-he-just-found-all-the-answers, with a comment about taking the game too seriously for his health at the start, then 2 posts down there's a ragequit with a long reads list as his last post. I just think that has to be townie. It makes no sense for mafia to do an abrupt 180 from trying to push a lynch on someone else to a ragequit and self-vote -- which he has to figure would lead to him getting killed -- with a long reads/notes list that people weren't going to read.
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Oops missed this.
On January 03 2015 09:47 sicklucker wrote:
Yes I was confident in the original lynch. I was confident in the other one too because of who was voting
OK, I'm running into a problem here. I know people have already brought this up, but I need you to go over this for me one more time. You said here that you switched your vote because you weren't confident in your d1 reads, but it seems to me that your switch is entirely because of confidence in your d1 reads, and you say as much here.
Why the discrepancy between the post I linked and the post I quoted?
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On January 03 2015 11:04 Lazermonkey wrote:
Wait a minute, if SL is scum then geript kinda has to be as well. Why the fuck would he do that retarded vote switch otherwise?
I still have reservations about sicklucker. His 4 town reads thing actually checks out pretty good if you read carefully. That's why I took time to ask him specifically about Artanis -- he very clearly said well before any of me/Damdred/Doc switched to batsnacks that he townread all of us, and while he didn't explicitly say as much with Artanis, his answer checked out when I questioned him on that earlier. "Biggest" townreads might have been a stretch, but if sicklucker is mafia and voted batsnacks to save geript, that's one rather powerful act of divine providence to have 4 people he had previously called town all decide to kill a townie over his partner in the last hour of the game to give him a plausible excuse.
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Oh I know, and I'm with you there. I don't want to say much more because I don't want to lead sicklucker's answer to my last query to him, but once I'm done I'll talk about it.
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On January 03 2015 11:30 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Is there a reason for scum Geript not wanting to lynch Bats though? It's just weird, not alignment indicative.
No clue. It's why I wish he would answer this question so I could stop having to think about it. It's not alignment-indicative in itself but it basically leaves him in my lynch pile until he says something I can actually believe.
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EPT
