EPTKelsierSC said that he is just getting back from the hospital and couldn't properly read the thread to find the case on him. I see no reason to doubt that he just didn't see the voting situation and didn't realize that he could save himself by voting for Holyflare.
TL Mafia LXIX: Carol Of The Bells - Page 3
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Trfel
7015 Posts
KelsierSC said that he is just getting back from the hospital and couldn't properly read the thread to find the case on him. I see no reason to doubt that he just didn't see the voting situation and didn't realize that he could save himself by voting for Holyflare. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On December 14 2014 12:43 ObiWanShinobi wrote: Holyflare, your bit about Kelsier calling you town meaning that you're town is awful. Gotta go with ObiWanShinobi and rsoultin on this one. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On December 14 2014 12:59 rsoultin wrote: Agreed on the one point and debunked all your others ^^ That was when you called me a gnat as I recall. Why did you switch? Which part of GBs case convinced you? Yes, I would like to know the answer to this, as well as if you still think that Holyflare is scum, and why or why not? | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On December 14 2014 14:10 Vivax wrote: I rather think not just cause of the wagons, he's probably the counterwagon to Kelsier. Why did you switch your vote to him without saying it in thread? On December 14 2014 07:41 Trfel wrote: Switching to Holyflare because of a gut call. It's hard to explain. If someone really wants me to, I can try though. On December 14 2014 07:54 Trfel wrote: Last game, my first TL Mafia game, I made two big scum calls. I was wrong on both. I suppose I've lost a good bit of self confidence at Mafia. Now I presented a case that (I feel) is strong, but isn't foolproof. And it instantly gathered tons of support. Meanwhile, several veterans and people that I trust (namely GlowingBear and Vivax) are sticking with the Holyflare lynch. That makes me worry that the Mafia are using my case to avoid a Holyflare lynch. Still though, it's really weird that Vivax hasn't provided anything of his own on GlowingBear. I am happy with either lynch. It's really hard to call. Not voting for KelsierSC doesn't mean that I don't want to see him lynched. Him being in the hospital does make me more reluctant to lynch him, though, and I am okay with giving him a day to redeem himself (same with Fecalfeast). If anyone has any further questions about this, I'm listening. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
I believe you mean intentionally following someone else and copying their reasoning. I sheeped GlowingBear and Vivax to vote for Holyflare. Holyflare, we all know you are an extremely convincing and dominating player. Unfortunately, that's making it really hard for me to townread you, since your mafia play is that good. Which is another reason that I decided to follow some veterans. My case on KelsierSC was made completely independently. I just looked at his filter and went top to bottom. If it lined up with your case, that was without me looking at it. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On December 14 2014 14:35 Vivax wrote: Sorry, I asked for your additions on GlowingBear's case, not your thoughts on GlowingBear's alignment. My claim that you had none is directly based on your response: Oh and Trfel I forgot you wanted to see my additions on GB and you claimed I have none, well, that's what I initially thought of him when he started posting against HF, I guess you missed it in my filter? + Show Spoiler + On December 13 2014 11:23 Vivax wrote: @ GB So you thought froggynoddys entrance was bad but didn't give a shit about him afterwards, also you include arguments for him being scum but only focus on HF today. Needless to say how that looks to me. Unless you have an explanation for only bringing up that entry as scummy now that you use it in your case against HF. Not impressed at all. On December 13 2014 14:16 Vivax wrote: Fact of the matter is that I have arguments for both GB and FF being scum, not just gut reads. The gut reads are basically everyone else (Templar, trfel) since those arguments rely on their meta. GB's stance regarding froggy doesn't make sense since he scumreads him for his entrance but doesn't try to analyse his templar read further besides saying "it's ok". Also he says it's ok but he doesn't scumread templar so I wonder how he can find a read ok if he doesn't agree with it? Plus his narrowness on having HF as scumread and not openly considering a froggy lynch even though he gave all the arguments for his being a scum entrance. On December 14 2014 07:41 Vivax wrote: Cause I read his post and it convinced me, nothing else really. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
Is it really that suspicious that I constructed my own argument without looking at someone else's? I read the posts looking for information based on what KelsierSC said, not for what others said about him. I've already stated that I don't feel like I can read everything as carefully as I would like in such a large game, so I limited myself to KelsierSC's filter and any outside information I deemed necessary while reading the filter. I will take another look tomorrow to attempt to get a read from this Holyflare/GlowingBear mess. Right now, I won't offer reads about either player since I haven't given the arguments much attention since the lynch. I am sorry that I forgot about the Holyflare defense post, that was pretty sloppy of me. Also, agreeing with someone doesn't mean you have to townread them. GlowingBear said that he was okay with lynching KelsierSC as well, so do I need to townread both of you? | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On December 14 2014 15:06 Holyflare wrote: Yes because as you literally just stated you are reading kelsiers filter and i just linked page 2 of his filter where he's literally just arguing with me about the town read on me and the batsnacks town read. He even quotes my posts many many times. I think it's bad that if you base 2/3 of your case on something that isn't original thought and if you actually read his filter to make a case you'd instantly know it isn't (there is absolutely no way I'd see you missing something so evident) that you would even contemplate voting them off when they aren't around to talk over someone you made a case on! You even sheeped vivax when he called gb scummy all day yet jumped on me and you even said gb's case on me was bad iirc??? I literally have no idea how you could ignore a fecal wagon all game but so easily jump on someone you should be super hesitant about lynching especially over your own case/my points. Well, I believe this is my 17th post for the night, so I don't plan on posting much more before the day phase. Plus, I don't plan on arguing with you about this any more, as it just won't go anywhere productive. I will turn my attention back to finding scum instead of defending myself. My main points: 1. Whether or not I used your posts to build my case is completely irrelevant. It simply doesn't matter. KelsierSC is dead, move on. 2. Even if I did copy your case exactly for my case, I don't see why that makes my vote for you suspicious. You can make an argument as town or scum. 3. I didn't ignore the Fecalfeast lynch, I addressed it several times. I just feel that his play is poor, but not necessarily scummy. I feel like the Holyflare case has much more force than the Fecalfeast case. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On December 14 2014 15:59 Holyflare wrote: Then when a mislynch opportunity arose you were quite quick to dismiss your entire case on your mafia buddy to lynch me. I don't see this at all. GlowingBear's Holyflare case was posted BEFORE I posted my KelsierSC case. In fact, I referenced this case in the last line of my case. All this time, the Holyflare case gathered momentum, but I only switched to Holyflare AFTER KelsierSC finally took the lead in the vote count. If I was mafia, why would I do that? I admit that it was a stupid thing to do. But it happened. Whether I'm town or mafia, it was a stupid thing to do. I do like GlowingBear's case on you. It's not amazing, but I do like it, and it doesn't feel like a mafia-produced case (though GlowingBear may be mafia for other reasons, I haven't looked closely yet). I posted my criticisms of it looking for a response from GlowingBear, Vivax, or one of the other Holyflare voters, not because I didn't like the case. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
Here is a list of every reason why I changed my vote: 1. Lack of confidence in my own reads after being wrong on 2/2 big reads in the Student Mafia IV game 2. Confusion over what's happening in the game and being unable to follow everything as carefully as I would like 3. Holyflare is a very strong player and will provide strong arguments against being lynched as either alignment 4. My case on KelsierSC picked up a lot of support very quickly, which I found really weird, since it didn't feel quite as strong as the cases I made in the previous game, and those cases didn't build up much support despite my constant pressure 5. I trusted the reads of veterans like GlowingBear and Vivax over my own 6. I agreed with Vivax that the way GlowingBear was going about pushing the Holyflare lynch seemed towny I could have missed something, but I think that's about it. On December 14 2014 16:23 Holyflare wrote: I don't know how obvious an answer you want but not killing a team mate seems like an obvious one to your statement. Yes, if I was mafia I can see that I would switch votes to Holyflare to avoid KelsierSC, my mafia buddy, getting lynched. But what I cannot see is why I would choose that time to switch. It's basically the worst time for it. Plus, in the event that KelsierSC had avoided the lynch, it cost me the town credit I might have gained (see Vivax's post). Again, it was a moronic thing to do, regardless of my alignment. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
There could be one Ghost of Christmas Present, or fifteen, or zero. Counterclaiming doesn't prove anything about LightningStrike's alignment. The lack of a counterclaim also doesn't show anything about LightningStrike, since the Ghost of Christmas Present could simply have chosen not to claim, or there could be zero of that role in the game. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
Vivax Vivax seems... strange. I'm not really sure what to make of it. The first thing to note is, he has been making a lot of reads. From looking at his filter, here's what I found. + Show Spoiler [Vivax's Reads] + suspicious of 27ninjabunnies suspicious of ritoky suspicious of Tubesock suspicious of KelsierSC suspicious of Xatalos suspicious of rsoultin no longer suspicious of Xatalos suspicious of batsnacks less suspicious of batsnacks suspicious of Fecalfeast suspicious of Trfel suspicious of GlowingBear suspicious of The_Templar suspicious of Oatsmaster suspicious of Holyflare suspicious of Xatalos I think that this is just a playstyle, and not a sign of being mafia. It's not good or bad. Also, his reads are all well-explained and what he is doing makes sense to me. Really, I don't see any signs of him being scum here. Except, his play leading up to the day 2 lynch deadline has felt a bit off to me. On page 120, GlowingBear posts Part 2 of his case on Holyflare. The full case summary is posted on page 121. On page 122, I post a case on KelsierSC. Vivax posts a few pages after this, but doesn't respond to either case. Then he mentions the Holyflare case on page 125 and says he is tempted to go for it, and then votes for Holyflare on page 126. No mention of the KelsierSC case at all, despite being suspicious of him earlier in the game. On page 129, I post a response to GlowingBear's case, hoping for a response from one of the GlowingBear voters. Vivax posts like this: On December 14 2014 07:34 Vivax wrote: Lynch HF On December 14 2014 07:41 Vivax wrote: Cause I read his post and it convinced me, nothing else really. No reference at all to the KelsierSC case, no original reasons for lynching Holyflare, no response to the criticism I presented of the Holyflare case, no sign of the critical thinking and analytical Vivax that I saw throughout the rest of the game. The only town explanation I can come up with for Vivax is that he was reading sporadically and missed my repeated questions on GlowingBear's case, and really was that convinced by GlowingBear's case that he didn't mention the KelsierSC case in an attempt to gather support for lynching Holyflare instead. I'm very hesitant to call Vivax mafia for this. It's the only suspicious thing I see in his filter, while the rest of his play seems to be searching for mafia and being constructive. In the end I leave him at null/town, but he is definitely on my watch list. ______________________________________________________________________________________________ batsnacks It's sort of the same thing for batsnacks. The fact that I tried to get batsnacks lynched last game for not providing scumreads and him ending up being town is still heavily in the back of my mind. So I'm not going to try and get a read on him, but here's some thoughts. Batsnacks makes an early read on Half the Sky, and his reasons for this read have been heavily criticized. I still think this read makes him seem a bit towny, but I could be wrong. His push on LightningStrike is good, too. Batsnacks clearly noticed that I posted a case on KelsierSC, and he put KelsierSC into his "would lynch" list. His vote remained on Holyflare, and he seemed desperate to get people to switch from KelsierSC to Holyflare. He never provided comments on the KelsierSC case, either. ______________________________________________________________________________________________ GlowingBear I don't have a big read on GlowingBear yet. I am just including him here because he pushed on Holyflare over KelsierSC, and it would seem incomplete if I mentioned Vivax and batsnacks without mentioning GlowingBear. The main reason I find GlowingBear's push on Holyflare instead of KelsierSC less suspicious than the two previous cases is that GlowingBear acknowledged the KelsierSC case and said that he was fine with a KelsierSC lynch. ______________________________________________________________________________________________ Fecalfeast I've been defending Fecalfeast a bit throughout day 2. I suppose that was the first controversial read I made all game, since I only started seriously being suspicious of KelsierSC midway through day 2. Anyway, I maintain that Fecalfeast's play seems to be poor town instead of inactive mafia. He should be on a relatively short leash, though. ______________________________________________________________________________________________ sicklucker I said I wouldn't make meta reads. Well, here's a meta read. The main reason is because I tend to have trouble understanding sicklucker's arguments, so I usually somewhat ignore him. Usually, sicklucker is constantly posting and providing tons of different thoughts. Last game, he said that he likes to make fast reads and he was making reads all over the place. One example of that is when I posted a long post on batsnacks, sicklucker responded “I haven't read your post yet, but you are so town for writing that up”. This game, he has definitely done weird things and made a lot of posts, but they are all related to setup, presents, and roles. Very few reads. I don't think it makes sicklucker scum, but I don't see him as a sure town like some other people do. ______________________________________________________________________________________________ Then there's the arguments between Vivax and Xatalos, and GlowingBear and Holyflare. I haven't put enough time into the recent development of those cases, so I don't feel that I have a right to offer an opinion of those cases at the moment. I hope to look heavily into those tomorrow. In case I die, good luck and happy scumhunting! | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
Congratulations town! Nice work. Definitely a lot of fun to play in, and thanks a bunch to Palmar and marv for hosting! Looking forward to the next game. | ||
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