On September 04 2014 12:34 ObiWanShinobi wrote: Templar, Vivax can base his reads off of meta because he has tons of first hand experience of playing with both of us.
They look like shitty reasons to you because we've never played together.
This post bothers me the most so far. Unless it's sarcasm, then disregard.
Why would an individual's meta be relevant at all? I understand the nature of certain people may not change much, but especially in a forum-based game, is it really so hard to believe that people would act differently from game to game?
Because to be honest, it does look like the shittiest reason. I don't like this read from Vivax at all. If you can challenge this view, I'd welcome you to do so. No hate, and I promise I'm reading. Keep in mind that people interpret things differently, and that's part of the fun of Mafia. What one person may not see in a post, someone else might.
I really don't think you understand how meta works.
People can consciously change their meta but that doesn't really erase the fact that they're still going to show signs of being mafia or not. Kush is playing to his scum meta because he doesn't give a shit about what's going on. It's hard for him to fake the amount of effort he generally puts into the game when he's town. His posts near EoD were all really good, so it's possible, but he won't be able to keep up that level of interest forever if he's scum.
If you want to go ahead and use the database to confirm your suspicions or to look up whether what we're saying or not is true, then go ahead.
On September 04 2014 13:18 Oatsmaster wrote: Kita come on dude, you can do better than that
I'm still pretty annoyed that Micchan wasted our time like that. We'll never hear from him again and he could probably care less. I suppose it's part of the game though.
I try not to get too worked up over a things so I took a break this evening. Unfortunately, I can't "do better than that" this night cycle with a busy workday tomorrow, but if I don't get shot, things should be much easier once the weekend hits.
On September 04 2014 12:34 ObiWanShinobi wrote: Templar, Vivax can base his reads off of meta because he has tons of first hand experience of playing with both of us.
They look like shitty reasons to you because we've never played together.
This post bothers me the most so far. Unless it's sarcasm, then disregard.
Why would an individual's meta be relevant at all? I understand the nature of certain people may not change much, but especially in a forum-based game, is it really so hard to believe that people would act differently from game to game?
Because to be honest, it does look like the shittiest reason. I don't like this read from Vivax at all. If you can challenge this view, I'd welcome you to do so. No hate, and I promise I'm reading. Keep in mind that people interpret things differently, and that's part of the fun of Mafia. What one person may not see in a post, someone else might.
I really don't think you understand how meta works.
People can consciously change their meta but that doesn't really erase the fact that they're still going to show signs of being mafia or not. Kush is playing to his scum meta because he doesn't give a shit about what's going on. It's hard for him to fake the amount of effort he generally puts into the game when he's town. His posts near EoD were all really good, so it's possible, but he won't be able to keep up that level of interest forever if he's scum.
If you want to go ahead and use the database to confirm your suspicions or to look up whether what we're saying or not is true, then go ahead.
I understand, I might have to look into that. Thank you for explaining. I've never put much weight into this notion, at least not for live mafia. Maybe forum mafia applies differently. That might be why our radars are so out-of-sync though, meta reads on players don't sit very well with me in general.
Re-reading your filter, it does seem like bat's case has a few holes. I didn't take it very seriously at first, since the whole post gave me a bad vibe and bat hadn't exactly seemed the most trustworthy type. What do you think about the discussion of ending the voting early, or otherwise changing the "structural meta?" An idea I had in the shower earlier would be to have each person pick someone who will decide their vote for them. That way, if mafia are forced to vote a certain way, anyone who disobeys the "town meta" will stick out.
It's another shot in the dark, but since it's nighttime anyway, why not. It's been a while since the topic of missions was brought up. So far I see a few ways they could have affected the gameplay, as in my post to batsnacks, but nothing too solid. Any thoughts?
The trouble of going through with trying to fuck with people's missions that we don't even really know about is a bit much. Scumhunting is probably easier, so wharvez.
On September 04 2014 11:30 Damdred wrote: Yes, his read evolution is weird. His town reading bats has me feeling uneasy, and his vote post talking about jumping on a hot wagon and lurking felt off.
so I think he has to be in the discussion
Why did that part of the post feel off to you? I thought it was pretty straightforward.
3d12, I quoted two posts of yours regarding bunnies that seem contradictory and generally dont display well how you decide to get the current read on her, can you go into detail about that stuff?
On September 04 2014 13:43 ObiWanShinobi wrote: Or we can just scumhunt.
The trouble of going through with trying to fuck with people's missions that we don't even really know about is a bit much. Scumhunting is probably easier, so wharvez.
When you say a bit much, do you mean too much effort or too many people?
With a coordinated town effort, I think enough subtle changes to the meta could really throw things off for them. The way I see the Mafia this game, they are likely extra paranoid due to the death condition hanging over their heads. I think the easiest way to bring them out would be to shake things up and see who starts crawling out. Do you disagree?
On September 04 2014 13:43 ObiWanShinobi wrote: Or we can just scumhunt.
The trouble of going through with trying to fuck with people's missions that we don't even really know about is a bit much. Scumhunting is probably easier, so wharvez.
When you say a bit much, do you mean too much effort or too many people?
With a coordinated town effort, I think enough subtle changes to the meta could really throw things off for them. The way I see the Mafia this game, they are likely extra paranoid due to the death condition hanging over their heads. I think the easiest way to bring them out would be to shake things up and see who starts crawling out. Do you disagree?
On September 04 2014 11:43 27ninjabunnies wrote: So, the conversations here have been pretty interesting..
Seriously, batsnacks needs to die! There's been like 4 or 5 times Obi has asked BS to give his read as to why there's one between me and him, and BS still has refused to answer.
Why are you avoiding it so much, Bat?
Also, Dam, how can you be reading me, Bat, and 3d as mafia when I've been pushing on Bat, and called 3d scum/neutral scum earlier?
This alone gives you the confidence that he must be scum?
Bats isn't exactly renowned for caring a lot about his image as town so I wouldn't put it past him that he simply didn't read it or doesn't care about answering, hence I need to see how this argument of yours shows that it must come from his scum mindset.
What do you think about 3d's weird opinion change on you that I displayed above?
No, not alone. I gave several reasons yesterday as a counter wagon to the Micchan lynch. But this more solidifies it. I've played quite a few games with BS. In his past games, to me, he seems to care more, not about his image, but about the game. Tbh, this game is lacking highly.
Why wouldn't he care about answering? If he has a read on a person, and people want to know why, it would be pro town to actually answer it. But instead, he avoids it as if it's a plague.
As for 3d, his opinion change seemed to have a bit of basis. He originally didn't like my posting and 'buddying' with Poofter (though it wasnt really buddying. I called him town.), and called me scum for it, then moved on to saying my posts started to get better, then solidified that read within his multitude of reads.
Does that read make him town? Not in the slightest, but I'm not seeing where you are saying its a complete read change with no basis behind it.
On September 04 2014 13:43 ObiWanShinobi wrote: Or we can just scumhunt.
The trouble of going through with trying to fuck with people's missions that we don't even really know about is a bit much. Scumhunting is probably easier, so wharvez.
When you say a bit much, do you mean too much effort or too many people?
With a coordinated town effort, I think enough subtle changes to the meta could really throw things off for them. The way I see the Mafia this game, they are likely extra paranoid due to the death condition hanging over their heads. I think the easiest way to bring them out would be to shake things up and see who starts crawling out. Do you disagree?
On September 04 2014 13:18 Oatsmaster wrote: Kita come on dude, you can do better than that
I'm still pretty annoyed that Micchan wasted our time like that. We'll never hear from him again and he could probably care less. I suppose it's part of the game though.
I try not to get too worked up over a things so I took a break this evening. Unfortunately, I can't "do better than that" this night cycle with a busy workday tomorrow, but if I don't get shot, things should be much easier once the weekend hits.
I trust you to cover for me tonight Oats
It didn't look like you were heavily invested in micchan's lynch anyway. Why the overblown reaction? What makes you think you are in any danger of being shot?
I thought you had a scumread on me. What happened to that?
On September 04 2014 13:45 Vivax wrote: 3d12, I quoted two posts of yours regarding bunnies that seem contradictory and generally dont display well how you decide to get the current read on her, can you go into detail about that stuff?
Sure. Quoted here, for posterity.
On September 04 2014 11:31 Vivax wrote: Specifically:
On September 02 2014 17:24 3d12 wrote: Obi is a bit of a mystery, but is starting to look more pink to me. The fact that he was so willing to vote out bat for what was likely a provocation post makes me question his motives, but the fact that he instantly switched his view to Templar after receiving some pressure is a bit more fishy. More data is needed, but the radar is definitely reading slightly pink.
On September 02 2014 17:24 3d12 wrote: It wasn't who he voted for, it was how he voted and why. By casting a vote in a random direction, one can sit back and observe how people react to that vote. That's not typically Mafia behavior, though I will admit the long-winded post from earlier had me confused as well. All in all, it's a tough read; but if I had to imagine myself in his position, I wouldn't imagine he'd want to make such a big target out of himself on D1 if he were Mafia.
On September 02 2014 04:43 ObiWanShinobi wrote: Reporting in.
##vote 27nb
So why doesn't your logic that gives you a town read on bat, not apply to obi? Didn't he "cast a vote in a random direction"? You say bat wouldn't want to make a big target of himself as mafia by random voting, but obi would? This seems inconsistent to me.
EBWOP
If you'd asked me this 4 hours in, I'd have read Obi as green as I did bat. His opening vote was similarly provocative, and there was little reason to suspect. Since pushing to have bat plynched though, Obi has pointed fingers at two other parties and is acting much more defensive. I'm not voting yet, but Obi is definitely on my radar.
On September 03 2014 01:38 Damdred wrote:
On September 03 2014 01:30 3d12 wrote:
On September 03 2014 01:11 Damdred wrote: Actually 3d, why are you ignoring bunnies right now? She has said a couple times that she would be happy to get you out of the game, what do you think of that? Why did you put off commenting on it?
Not worth comment, imo. She said herself that her read on me is only a "gut read," and if people are happy with bandwagoning on a gut feeling to have me lynched, I'll happily /obs and laugh as the scum runs away with the game.
Well I can understand that. However what do you think of bunnies posts besides her gut feeling on you?
What posts? Aside from a suspicious(ly silly) read on poofter and a CTA for a vigi on bat, she hasn't contributed much to the discussion so far. If anything, if the deadline was right now and I had to cast my vote, I think 27nb would be my choice. Stepping up and trying to publicly read poofter as town based on nothing but troll posts gives me a bad feeling that there may even be a bus straight to LYLO going on under our noses.
On September 04 2014 03:53 3d12 wrote: Hey everyone, sorry for going MIA yesterday. I got dragged into a bit of a mess IRL that ended up sucking up my night. I lurked the thread on my phone when I could get service, and took down some notes:
Notes from last night: 1. The next person to suggest we ignore missions is getting full-on scumread. This topic keeps coming up, very sporadically, and it feels like a few people are trying to echo the idea across the crowd, so it's more acceptable later. Ignoring the mission concept is completely unacceptable and will only serve to hinder us. Stay vigilant for possible mission-like behaviors, everyone. I get the feeling that they would be rather out-of-the-ordinary missions, otherwise the host could have just as well run vanilla. (Sorry for the meta read there, but if anyone wants to refute that, I'm open to hear your case.)
2. Micchan is giving off a serious mafia vibe to me. Not only did his bandwagoning post seem forced ("Ok here whatever" as if he's trying to seem aloof) but the fact that his only other post yesterday was a defensive misdirection, posted only 20 minutes after he was called out. He's either really bad at this game, scum, too busy IRL to play, or any/all of the above.
3. Poofter's reads (specifically the BMK list) seem solid for the most part, but the way he posted and went after Micchan tells me something isn't right. Specifically, the way he's applying pressure to vote. The reads say town, but the pressure says mafia. Nobody on my town list so far has been pushing for a D1 lynch.
4. My posts usually do come across as apologetic. Not just here either. Blame my mother for giving birth within spitting distance of Canada. Anyone reading into that makes it on my scum list, since it looks like they're conjuring fault out of nothing.
With my personal notes out of the way, let's move on to direct responses:
On September 03 2014 05:23 The_Templar wrote:
On September 03 2014 03:07 3d12 wrote:
On September 03 2014 02:22 kitaman27 wrote:
On September 03 2014 02:21 kitaman27 wrote:
On September 02 2014 17:24 3d12 wrote: Obi is a bit of a mystery, but is starting to look more pink to me. The fact that he was so willing to vote out bat for what was likely a provocation post makes me question his motives, but the fact that he instantly switched his view to Templar after receiving some pressure is a bit more fishy. More data is needed, but the radar is definitely reading slightly pink.
On September 02 2014 17:24 3d12 wrote: It wasn't who he voted for, it was how he voted and why. By casting a vote in a random direction, one can sit back and observe how people react to that vote. That's not typically Mafia behavior, though I will admit the long-winded post from earlier had me confused as well. All in all, it's a tough read; but if I had to imagine myself in his position, I wouldn't imagine he'd want to make such a big target out of himself on D1 if he were Mafia.
On September 02 2014 04:43 ObiWanShinobi wrote: Reporting in.
##vote 27nb
So why doesn't your logic that gives you a town read on bat, not apply to obi? Didn't he "cast a vote in a random direction"? You say bat wouldn't want to make a big target of himself as mafia by random voting, but obi would? This seems inconsistent to me.
EBWOP
If you'd asked me this 4 hours in, I'd have read Obi as green as I did bat. His opening vote was similarly provocative, and there was little reason to suspect. Since pushing to have bat plynched though, Obi has pointed fingers at two other parties and is acting much more defensive. I'm not voting yet, but Obi is definitely on my radar.
On September 03 2014 01:38 Damdred wrote:
On September 03 2014 01:30 3d12 wrote:
On September 03 2014 01:11 Damdred wrote: Actually 3d, why are you ignoring bunnies right now? She has said a couple times that she would be happy to get you out of the game, what do you think of that? Why did you put off commenting on it?
Not worth comment, imo. She said herself that her read on me is only a "gut read," and if people are happy with bandwagoning on a gut feeling to have me lynched, I'll happily /obs and laugh as the scum runs away with the game.
Well I can understand that. However what do you think of bunnies posts besides her gut feeling on you?
What posts? Aside from a suspicious(ly silly) read on poofter and a CTA for a vigi on bat, she hasn't contributed much to the discussion so far. If anything, if the deadline was right now and I had to cast my vote, I think 27nb would be my choice. Stepping up and trying to publicly read poofter as town based on nothing but troll posts gives me a bad feeling that there may even be a bus straight to LYLO going on under our noses.
If you think bunnies' activities make her lynchable right now you should probably explain the posts she has made...
Up until this post in the thread, bunnies' biggest contribution to the thread was to town claim for the person she's been buddying/bantering with throughout the whole thread. Suspicious? Yes. Lynchable? Not by itself.
I also particularly disliked the way bunnies was gathering information, going from defensive short-posts to prodding people for their reads and then replying to each one-by-one. Generally, townies are more willing to share their reads, instead of needing to base their perspective on other people's reads.
Today's bunnies is a bit different from yesterday's bunnies, in that she's laid out a list of her reads. No information or explanation, but at least she's sharing. I do like that.
On September 03 2014 22:14 27ninjabunnies wrote: @3d12- you said my read on tehpoofter was silly and based on troll posts, but I think I gave a bit more reasoning than that. why is the read silly to you? What do you think of poofter so far?
The read is silly because it was based entirely on meta. A person's meta can change from game to game. This read came from nothing tangible. For example, it would be impossible for me to have the same read on poof because I've never played with him. Since you and I have been exposed to the same information this game, you are using information I have not been exposed to to make a claim on someone else. That is absolutely 100% fishy, would you agree?
As for my reads on poofter, see point 3 from my "last night's notes" above, and my list of reads below.
On September 03 2014 05:38 mderg wrote: Anyone else thinking that 3d12 is trying hard to get some newbie bonus? I also don't like how a provocative opening instantly makes him townread people.
Anyone else thinking that mderg is trying hard to get some focus on me? I wasn't the only one to nullread/townread bat yesterday. And yes, traditionally from my live mafia experience, provocative openings are usually townies. It's probably an 80/20 split. I never confirmed him green, but I pointed out that bat looked town from the way he opened. If you have a better reason to scumread him instead, why not post your reasoning?
On September 03 2014 00:05 mderg wrote: I don't like the batsnacks votes. They seem kinda lazy. Sure, his post didn't make any sense but that's it.
This was all the reasoning I could find in your filter, and it's pretty weak. So, how about it, mderg? Batsnacks: scum or town?
List of reads:
Mafia ObiWanShinobi (Very non-committal so far, easily switched vote from "troll vote" to batsnacks once it seemed like bat was being scumread. Hesitant to share information. Off-topic posts. Only real redeeming quality so far is calling out kush, very pro-town move.) mderg (Repeatedly pushing the "ignore the missions" idea, provoking reactions from players while not disclosing any information himself, heavy lurking, generally defensive) kushm4sta (Tunnel-vision on batsnacks, trying to start a plynch, low activity otherwise) Micchan (Inactivity, defensive, no thoughts shared, no case built, suspicious bandwagoning)
Mafia-likely (Pink) TehPoofter (High voting pressure, starting a bandwagon/plynch, very large filter, calls people out on buddying while blatantly attempting to buddy, redeemed so far by good questioning of Templar's motives) Oatsmaster (Avoiding all talk about missions, redirecting scum claims towards bat and Obi, not posting thoughts openly)
Neutral (White) The_Templar (Good expression and information-sharing, challenges unnatural ideas/thoughts, sensibly pieces together a motive. Neutral because of weak (meta/defensive) defense about his role) Vivax (Strange read on poofter, but otherwise constructs very sensible and well-put-together posts pointing out discrepancies. Without the pink vibe from his accusations toward kita and templar, would likely be very town atm.) Damdred (No real read yet, seems to be gathering information. Is asking the right questions, but not sharing information openly) 27ninjabunnies (Good info balanced out by suspicious buddying/claiming)
Town batsnacks (I wasn't sure at first, but after your expose on kita, I know you're looking in the right places. Your investigation is solid and you're providing direct responses to your challenges. I highly doubt kita is scum, but I like the way you think.) kitaman27 (The main source of information so far imo, this guy is posting very good reads and keeping good notes. Only scummy behavior so far is what was pointed out by Vivax, but without further proof I'm willing to let it slide as a poor choice of words)
All in all, I don't like the idea of a plynch. However, I less like the idea of scum lurking the thread and hopping on whatever bandwagon is hot at the time. Let's change that.
##Vote: Micchan
My read on bunnies was based mostly on her read of poofter. Early D1 I didn't like the way she openly read him as town for reasons of personal meta. At the moment, it seemed like the most likely scenario was that she was buddying and attempting to avoid suspect. Later on in the day, she seemed to become more perceptive and started posting reads and sharing info, interacting with more people.
Specifically this post, which was indicative that we're at least reading kita the same way:
On September 03 2014 21:50 27ninjabunnies wrote: Anything special happened?
On September 03 2014 21:13 batsnacks wrote: If I'm gambling, I bet kitaman is mafia and his mission is that he has to vote with the majority.
##vote: kitaman27
Thoughts?
Well, Bat's read disagrees with mine. I find you quite townie. Your posts have been pretty good, your reads aren't too bad (though reads arent technically alignment indicative), and your questions have been great. I like where your mind is at. Mostly.
Tho, not sure if bats vote is troll or actually serious. If serious, Im curious as to the conclusion he came up with on you and how you are mafia.
I'm not 100% convinced she's town, but she gained a few town points to me in the twilight hours of D1.
Besides, if he were mafia, why would he go out of his way to start a wagon against a second party? You would think that would make you stick out more than blend in, which it did.
Besides, if he were mafia, why would he go out of his way to start a wagon against a second party? You would think that would make you stick out more than blend in, which it did.
On September 04 2014 15:16 Vivax wrote: Nothing to ask for the moment. Still have to read more of past stuff. Was dwelling in 3ds filter when I saw that.
It kinda hit me how he would speak of "parties", as if he knew that bats and kita were different ones.
Are you sure he is talking about actual 'parties' or the fact of a second wagon? Curious on your take on this.
Well, the second party is kita in this case. What's odd is the wording, couldn't unsee, but I don't know if it's a genuine slip or just a weird word he chose to use, but since he can argue in his favour when explaining, it's probably unproductive to dwell on this.
EPT
