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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On June 11 2014 04:41 Amiko wrote: Palmar said I needed to learn not to play as if I was scared. Sqrt said he was scared, I didn't (and wasn't). ok, Palmar was wrong, you weren't scared, just bull-headed(ly wrong) On June 11 2014 04:42 Amiko wrote: Can you explain what you mean more marv? which bit in particular? | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38799 Posts
Basically Palmar looked bad because he wanted to lynch MZ D1&D2 and MZ ended up being town. That's kinda it. From what I read. I didn't understand the "Palmar tried to shut down discussion in the thread" case. I didn't see that happen tbh. But wasn't in game and didn't read too closely D2; | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
Why is it bullheaded to not change your mind when you aren't given reason to change your mind, and are actually given support for your opinion? | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
On June 11 2014 04:43 Koshi wrote: Palmar his D4 was pretty town. You could respect lynch him in case he has superb scumplay. Basically Palmar looked bad because he wanted to lynch MZ D1&D2 and MZ ended up being town. That's kinda it. From what I read. I didn't understand the "Palmar tried to shut down discussion in the thread" case. I didn't see that happen tbh. But wasn't in game and didn't read too closely D2; I can throw a few quick examples- D1: Didn't want people to bring up new wagons (other than jabberwockzerg). ex: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=29#565 D2: Shut down points on merits of M_Z/slOosh. D3: His response to scumhunting was basically 'let's not play this game any more unless M_Z flips town' ex: On June 03 2014 08:59 Amiko wrote: @Palmar / @Haru / @Alakaslam: Do you think mderg is buddying me? Or do his posts feel natural to you? On June 03 2014 09:17 Palmar wrote: Do I have to care? (though seriously this is most of his d3 filter) | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
On June 11 2014 04:36 marvellosity wrote: tbh it pretty much feels like when Palmar said on d4 that you needed to learn from what went down, that you haven't. You're trying to post-hoc justify his play as scummy when he was town? On this I argued his play was scummy quite a bit in the game, so I don't see why you are saying it is post-hoc. And yeah Palmar's lesson to me on d4 was 'don't play scared' and I don't see how that applies to your point (or how being scared = being bullheaded)? | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On June 11 2014 04:43 Amiko wrote: Palmar didn't do anything to convince me that the reason he should be lynched (mderg is the most likely town of the three based on n2 roleblock) was incorrect; quite the opposite. Why is it bullheaded to not change your mind when you aren't given reason to change your mind, and are actually given support for your opinion? I guess I come from a biased opinion because I've been in so many games with Palmar and when we're both town, he's never been lynched. His d4 posting was lots of reason to change your mind. Palmar was totally correct when he made the simple stat that he had posted 80 times and fuba/mderg had posted like 20 times between them. That should set alarm bells ringing pretty hard. Koshi is right, Palmar's only mistake was misreading MZ, and pushing that lynch based on his misread (while reading the other 2 mafia correctly). To me his MZ push was pretty straightforward and well-explained, indeed I don't think anyone ever contested the primary reason he found him definitely scummy (MZ misinterpreting a Palmar post on how he read someone). I mean honestly if you're not going to change your mind on Palmar based on what he posted on d4, I'm finding it difficult to imagine you changing your mind on anyone you've decided is mafia. Like any other player I've mislynched a lot of townies, but if all townies posted half as well as Palmar did that day, mafia would be trivially easy as a game. I will definitely grant that the n2 roleblock played a confusing role, of course that happened because of the host shenannies. But if I'm put in that d4 situation, I don't see how I would ever lynch palmar over either fuba or mderg Your posting on d4 mostly read to me like you had decided Palmar was mafia, and anything he wrote practically didn't matter because you can fit anything to a mafia narrative if you try hard enough (which you did). | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38799 Posts
On June 11 2014 04:47 Amiko wrote: I can throw a few quick examples- D1: Didn't want people to bring up new wagons (other than jabberwockzerg). ex: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=29#565 D2: Shut down points on merits of M_Z/slOosh. D3: His response to scumhunting was basically 'let's not play this game any more unless M_Z flips town' ex: (though seriously this is most of his d3 filter) The first example is not really scummy at all. Bad example tbh. It's nothing unless you can tie it to something. The other 2 points are pretty good and make him a legit plynch. But it isn't really scummy. It is not something that scum tend to do by accident, or generally do. | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38799 Posts
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Koshi
Belgium38799 Posts
I also lynched snb in the latest Ver game and SnB was like palmar tbh. Game is hard. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On June 11 2014 04:56 Koshi wrote: What Palmar did D4 was just very hard to do as scum. Being sincere, upset and volume posting without feeling "off". I couldn't do it I think. Pretty sure No-one can, not that I've ever seen. | ||
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justanothertownie
16344 Posts
On June 11 2014 04:43 Amiko wrote: Palmar didn't do anything to convince me that the reason he should be lynched (mderg is the most likely town of the three based on n2 roleblock) was incorrect; quite the opposite - like I said, he raised a point that made this more likely. Why is it bullheaded to not change your mind when you aren't given reason to change your mind, and are actually given support for your opinion? To the bolded: What could he have done? There is nothing he could have said about that. The only thing he can do is try to convince you that he is town/one of the others is scum apart from that and if that argument is everything you care about he could aswell have not posted at all. | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
I've changed my mind on people all the time... in my first game, I started LYLO convinced that one player (Valenius) was mafia, to the point I told him that he should vote the 3rd player (theDragoon) but I would probably still vote Valenius anyway. By the end of the day I moved to the other. I just don't value tone reads much (especially on forums when I can't even see or hear the person), I'd rather look at the whole game than one day. I don't disagree that town can shut down discussion... I had this conversation with my coach. I just feel that sooner or later you have to pick what heuristic you are going to use. More than one person is switching their vote to town at deadline. More than one person are encouraging people to switch their vote to town. More than one person is using bad logic. More than one person is changing reads without much reason. More than one person is making really strange end of day comments. More than one person is being idle when a lynch isn't certain. I have to pick some sort of grounds to decide who is scummy and who isn't (or I can just RNG). I really think the n2 roleblock was a fair thing to hang my hat on. If you agree, then the lynches should be Palmar and Fuba. | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
On June 11 2014 05:14 justanothertownie wrote: To the bolded: What could he have done? There is nothing he could have said about that. The only thing he can do is try to convince you that he is town/one of the others is scum apart from that and if that argument is everything you care about he could aswell have not posted at all. If he convinced me there was a better heuristic to use than the n2 roleblock. I didn't see any and I don't think he did either. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On June 11 2014 05:16 Amiko wrote: I guess I just disagree - I feel like that kind of thing happens all the time when I play in person (and actually happens on video mafia sometimes as well, though I haven't played it), so I'm surprised you don't see it on forums more. I don't know, I've changed my mind on people all the time. I just don't value tone reads much on forums when I can't even see or hear the person. I don't disagree that town can shut down discussion... I had this conversation with my coach. I just feel that sooner or later you have to pick what heuristic you are going to use. More than one person is switching their vote to town at deadline. More than one person are encouraging people to switch their vote to town. More than one person is using bad logic. More than one person is changing reads without much reason. More than one person is making really strange end of day comments. More than one person is being idle when a lynch isn't certain. I have to pick some sort of grounds to decide who is scummy and who isn't (or I can just RNG). I really think the n2 roleblock was a fair thing to hang my hat on. If you agree, then the lynches should be Palmar and Fuba. Probably means you have to reevaluate what you hang your hat on | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38799 Posts
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
The heuristic was right, and the analysis was right. It was wrong because scum's intended action didn't go through. | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38799 Posts
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justanothertownie
16344 Posts
On June 11 2014 05:16 Amiko wrote: I have to pick some sort of grounds to decide who is scummy and who isn't (or I can just RNG). I really think the n2 roleblock was a fair thing to hang my hat on. It is a really important point (in fact the only reason to consider not lynching mderg), yes. But that does not mean that you should not take into account how people play. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On June 11 2014 05:16 Amiko wrote: I just don't value tone reads much (especially on forums when I can't even see or hear the person), I'd rather look at the whole game than one day. You need to learn to. It's what separates an average player who just looks at things at face value, and a good player who can see through the surface. I think you're capable of that. | ||
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