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On April 30 2014 05:51 27ninjabunnies wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 05:45 ritoky wrote:On April 30 2014 05:35 27ninjabunnies wrote:On April 30 2014 05:26 ritoky wrote:
Well I feel awkward right now, since from what I can tell my reads as of now are contrary to the vast majority of people.
tamburini: I don't understand the majority of the hate in regard to tamburini. He declared himself the lead of the town with his first post, which you don't have to agree with and I certainly don't; but it places spotlight on him. From that post forward in the entire game he will be under a microscope, so either he is that confident in his scum play or has nothing to hide. As of now, I have no reason to believe he has anything to hide. I personally believe that if he is scum trying to insert himself into the leadership role that he will run himself into the ground eventually. However, what I don't get is why everyone dislikes his reason for voting on yell0w. Personally, with my read on yell0w, I think tamburini is mistaking scum for just bad play; but I wouldn't be opposed to lynching yell0w. To me, tamburini's point is that town should be concerned primarily with locating and lynching scum, and yell0w's primary concern was appearing town. Appearing to be town is mafia's job, not town's.
epishade: I have red flags all around epishade, and have for a while. I don't really like many of his reads at all, but before that happened he was deflecting hard for yell0w and trying to kill conversation. There are 22 pages in this thread and a lot of it is predicated on the conversation that epishade didn't want to even happen. As I said earlier, his posts read more genuine and open which buy back some of the scum feel, but my gut says otherwise.
bunnies: I have a fairly neutral read on bunnies as of now, leaning town. She is pushing discussion along, which increases the volume of information available (the opposite of what epishade was trying to do before) and to me is a town thing to do. I think what bunnies is doing is useful for town, which gives me a town read; but I am simply wary of people getting behind her on a BW, which will put her back toward neutral a bit for me until there's more to go off of.
yell0w: For me, yell0w reads odd for me. Almost as if the game started at 50mph and yell0w was still going 30mph. I think his joke response was neither here nor there for me, but I liked his conviction in defending it when pressured. Then he seemed to be overly concerned with perception and since then has given a lot of info that is piggybacking off of someone else, so he is moving back down my list. Wouldn't be opposed to a lynch.
sqrt: I don't know if it is a stylistic thing or what, but there's something weird here. Lots of prods, short comments, and question asking, not much in the way of legwork. Combine that with the lack of seriousness early on and it just strikes me as all very odd. I don't read him as projecting town in any way; whereas most other people I can read town aspects to what they do and say. So, you are putting me more neutral because of a BW lynch? I'm not trying to get a BW lynch going. A BW lynch didn't even happen. I unvoted, and then ttamburini, and now Eden, have voted on Yellow. So the idea of a BW lynch is irrelevant. Your reads, while have backing, are a bit odd to me, tbh. I'll need to hear fro you more. No, you misread that. I think that everything you're doing is very town thus far, but from my pov you have a lot of people putting their ducks in a row behind you very early on; which is something I am simply wary of. When the majority of people start agreeing on a lot of what 1 person says early on it either means that town is very right, or being helped down a bad path. So while I like what you are doing and am leaning town on you, I am simply wary. That is all. And what of my reads don't you like? We have the opposite opinion, from what I can tell, of what tamburini did. And I think it will take quite a lot to make me get over how hard epishade was deflecting and setting himself up in a contrarian position. Sorry, let me explain. Your reads, while I think they are really good, just don't settle right in my gut. I could be wrong, and that's fine, hence why I think I need to get more of a read on you. I am not intentionally trying to lead town down a wrong road. I am pressuring and asking questions I think is relevant to finding the mafia hiding among this town. I agree that having people agree behind me makes me a little wary, but mafia can easily buss their partner, especially when they feel they can't dig him out of the hole he buried himself in. I'm not saying yell0w has done so, or is for sure mafia, but this is what I feel. and if so, it could be a epishade/yell0w team, if yell0w was mafia. Epishade hard defended, then pulled off his defense, as if he knew yell0w was going down. Again none of these reads are for sure, but speculation.
Ok I understand but your only reason for you finding his reads odd is your own gut feeling and that's not going to convice anyone unless they share that gut feeling. I don't share it for example and still hold to my clearance of Rikoty as town.
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So I thought about Eden's post a little bit and basically most of what he says is really inconsistent with his behavior last night where he didn't seem to think I was mafia, yet half of his points are things I said during that time, I mean why didn't he bring it up then when I was under fire?
So few things, first I already talked about bunnies and my reasoning as to why I think she's town, you didn't bring anything more that wasn't already said here. Second, you were the first to move off the conversation about me when bunnies unvoted me and you started voting other people and stuff, so I have no idea how you could possibly bring up that as an argument against me. Also, I didn't say she was insane and I see no issue with disagreeing with someone's reasoning and still thinking they're town. Third, you actually think knowing what other people think isn't important as town? I think it's primordial to the game, if you know what they think you know what alignment they are. I do not understand your logic here.
And the rest is about how I whined and wasn't proactive, so I don't how or where I whined, but I agree that I wasn't proactive, though I think I was more proactive than others. The reason I haven't been proactive is, well first I was being attacked, but also I don't like telling all my reads early in day 1, I think it's counter productive because if I say this or this thing that person did seemed mafia to me, they can easily change their behavior, so I don't say everything I think. And yes I have pretty much only been saying things other said before, except when I was asked questions. I think you're reading way too much into me thinking you were suspicious last night, I wasn't analyzing, it was just a gut feeling at the time, while I was being attacked, today I looked at it and you didn't seem that suspicious.
I really don't get the part about Sweetfrost though, yes I just brought it up after Epishade, but how is what I said not an important piece of information here? His post seems to indicate he didn't read the thread, it says I have been making multiple sarcastic or joking remarks, which I haven't been, it felt to me like he was agreeing hard with tamburini without really knowing why.
interaction with bunnies isn't good at all
You seemed fine with it yesterday.
way too defensive
I don't see how, you didn't make that case at all.
not proactive or scumhunting at all
That's the only decent argument you have, and if that's just it, there are better targets here, in my opinion.
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Amiko, I want to know who you've cleared as town. You've stated your scum reads, but I want to know your town reads also.
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So I thought about Eden's post a little bit and basically most of what he says is really inconsistent with his behavior last night where he didn't seem to think I was mafia, yet half of his points are things I said during that time, I mean why didn't he bring it up then when I was under fire?
I didn't give a clear statement about your guilt or innocence last night because I wasn't sure about it at the time. On rereading, I saw things I missed the first time, and I'm voting you now for them. What's the issue here?
So few things, first I already talked about bunnies and my reasoning as to why I think she's town, you didn't bring anything more that wasn't already said here. Second, you were the first to move off the conversation about me when bunnies unvoted me and you started voting other people and stuff, so I have no idea how you could possibly bring up that as an argument against me. Also, I didn't say she was insane and I see no issue with disagreeing with someone's reasoning and still thinking they're town. Third, you actually think knowing what other people think isn't important as town? I think it's primordial to the game, if you know what they think you know what alignment they are. I do not understand your logic here.
You said "it's insane to me that you would think X," I don't really see where that's any different from calling her insane, but that's not really the point. Here you soft-accused her of being scum, here you start to back down, here is the "insane" quote I mentioned and then here you call her a strong town read. This entire sequence occurred in a 30-minute span without any explanation at all. You can't credibly say you "disagreed with [her] reasoning while still thinking [she's] town."
I didn't say it's unimportant to know what someone's thinking, either. That's another sweeping generalization of someone's argument that you've made in here. Your logic is sloppy, probably deliberately so.
I did say you shouldn't be worrying about what others think about your alignment if you're town. As town, it's not important to know why someone thinks you're town or scum, no. You know what your alignment is. Whatever someone else is saying about your alignment shouldn't matter to you. They're either right or wrong, and if they're right, who gives a shit, and if they're wrong, you can always prove them wrong by finding scum. Why waste time defending yourself (which doesn't catch scum) when you can catch scum (which does defend yourself)?
Instead, you seem content to do nothing but attempt to dissuade others' concerns about you. This doesn't advance the town's goal of catching scum. It advances the scum's goal of not getting caught.
The reason I haven't been proactive is, well first I was being attacked, but also I don't like telling all my reads early in day 1, I think it's counter productive because if I say this or this thing that person did seemed mafia to me, they can easily change their behavior, so I don't say everything I think.
This boldface part is great, considering the extent to which you've been asking questions about how to look more town. So it's okay for you not to be productive because you don't want to tip off the scum to your suspicions and give them the chance to change their behavior to be less suspicious, but when others take issue with things you say, you're going to ask questions that would allow you to change your behavior to be less suspicious? How does any of this help the town? Again, it looks like you're just trying to look good and stay out of trouble instead of getting into it and finding scum.
That's the only decent argument you have, and if that's just it, there are better targets here, in my opinion.
Name them, and then tell me why you haven't been doing anything to catch them.
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So basically you're just saying the same things again? Okay, I answered everything there already in previous posts, except the last part, which players haven't been proactive or scumhunting.
So here goes, in no specific orders:
mysterymeat1, I don't think he did anything at all, yet seems present in the thread just lurking.
ahswtini, basically just said he didn't like sarcasm because it caused confusion and said that he didn't suspect tamburini and was on the fence on sweetfrost, that's pretty much it, no suspicious read at all.
I think dfs also hasn't said much, he did say tamburini was suspicious, don't quite remember if someone said it before though.
And I disagree with the second part of your question.
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So basically you're just saying the same things again?
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong
mysterymeat1, I don't think he did anything at all, yet seems present in the thread just lurking.
ahswtini, basically just said he didn't like sarcasm because it caused confusion and said that he didn't suspect tamburini and was on the fence on sweetfrost, that's pretty much it, no suspicious read at all.
I think dfs also hasn't said much, he did say tamburini was suspicious, don't quite remember if someone said it before though.
And I disagree with the second part of your question.
So you've just listed people that you think have been acting less proactively and more scummy than you. (Otherwise you didn't answer my query to "name [the better targets].") Can you link me to any significant interactions you've had with them? If you can't, how can you possibly disagree with my assertion that you haven't done anything to catch them, if you've made no cases against them and had no significant interactions with them?
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On April 30 2014 08:50 Yell0w wrote:
So basically you're just saying the same things again? Okay, I answered everything there already in previous posts, except the last part, which players haven't been proactive or scumhunting.
So here goes, in no specific orders:
mysterymeat1, I don't think he did anything at all, yet seems present in the thread just lurking.
ahswtini, basically just said he didn't like sarcasm because it caused confusion and said that he didn't suspect tamburini and was on the fence on sweetfrost, that's pretty much it, no suspicious read at all.
I think dfs also hasn't said much, he did say tamburini was suspicious, don't quite remember if someone said it before though.
And I disagree with the second part of your question.
I am very confused by this. So you think that the people who are better lynch targets than you are a set of quiet people with very little justification?
So you have nothing to really say at all about the couple of people who have walls of text in the thread? That is just odd to me.
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@ritoky
No, I said there was better targets in people who haven't been proactive or scumhunting, since that was his only good argument, in my opinion. So when Eden asked what those better targets where, he was asking who I thought was less proactive and not scumhunting than me, of course he tried to make it seem like that wasn't his query, but it was. So I answered and said who I thought wasn't doing these things. So I'm saying these are the better lynch targets, if we're lynching people for not being proactive and scumhunting.
They are not my biggest scum reads, because he wasn't asking for that.
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On April 30 2014 09:17 Yell0w wrote:
@ritoky
No, I said there was better targets in people who haven't been proactive or scumhunting, since that was his only good argument, in my opinion. So when Eden asked what those better targets where, he was asking who I thought was less proactive and not scumhunting than me, of course he tried to make it seem like that wasn't his query, but it was. So I answered and said who I thought wasn't doing these things. So I'm saying these are the better lynch targets, if we're lynching people for not being proactive and scumhunting.
They are not my biggest scum reads, because he wasn't asking for that.
Okay well here you go then, I want you to convince me not to vote for you. Give me scum reads, give me some reason to vote for someone else.
My stance on you is that I woke up today thinking "meh he is a little shady, but I am not sold" and throughout today I have gotten more sold. Further I think that lynching you provides me with more information in regard to Epishade who is my top scum read at the moment.
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@Meat
Haven't heard from you all day and you barely posted yesterday. When you finally do post, it's just to tell us not to worry and that you've been reading up with all of us, just didn't have anything to add.
When you say you don't have anything to add, it sounds pretty scummy to me. Either you think that you can sit back and watch as us townies accuse the wrong people and lynch each other, or you don't want to help town by offering your thoughts on something. In either case, it doesn't look good. I'd suggest you post what you're currently thinking/scumreads or townreads. Lurking doesn't help town.
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But I can give my thoughts about your big post last page, the reason I didn't at first is I was thinking about Eden's accusatory post.
Basically I'm not sure about Tamburini, his attack on me seemed odd and bold if he's mafia, but the fact that he basically dodged to answer as to why he's so intent on killing makes me think he's scum, but if he's town, he has been a terrible town leader, obviously I disagree with where you say towns shouldn't try to appear as town, I think that's silly, I said that before.
I agree on sqrt, but he did seem to be trying to start conversations when there wasn't one, I just don't think he was doing anything when there was one.
I disagree about Epishade, he seems town to me, I don't think his play makes sense if he's mafia and you did not convince me otherwise, but I would like to hear more though. Obviously I know I'm town and you don't, so he's fishier from your point of view I guess.
And my scum reads now, since you asked:
I don't like Sweetfrost at all, I asked him a question, he clearly didn't answer properly and then ignored anything I said. He seems to be pretty convinced me or bunnies are mafia, I think his case on bunnies is pretty weak, and his case on me is confused and is basically exactly what Tamburini said. Then he votes against sqrt because of what you said, not giving any other reason. I think he might be pretending to be scumhunting, going after someone we aren't going to kill now so it's pointless anyways and a waste of discussion in bunnies and then me and sqrt which he only gave someone else's reasons why. Also the fact that at multiple instances he shows he didn't read the thread, he thinks bunnies is a guy, he says stuff like... "As soon as Yell0w became a suspect he(bunnies) has been pushing his guiltiness hard." So clearly not aware that bunnies is the one who thought I was suspicious at first and said I made mutliple sarcastic remarks after being a suspect. He answered one of my question, didn't do it properly and then ignored when I said what he said didn't make sense. So, in my head, I felt like Sweetfrost seemed allied with Tamburini, they gave the exact same reasons to lynch me and bunnies was being suspicious of Tamburini when Sweetfrost said bunnies was suspicious.
But I don't know how to feel about Tamburini, though definitely leaning scum, I thought he was really scummy at first, but thinking about it his play seems like a really weird mafia play, and then reading his posts, his attitude just irritates me so maybe that's why I put him in mafia in my head. Just when he says he wants to lynch me for sarcasm and then uses sarcasm himself was pretty annoying to me. But like I said earlier, he didn't answer questions when asked and disappeared, then came back to say he had the right to disappear if he chose to and then left again, still without answering. That felt really scummy to me. And his attack on me felt like he waited for me to leave to say that he thought I was scummy since the start! But somehow didn't say anything before. Maybe he thought he could get an easy lynch because of the way he made my question sound and the fact I wasn't there to defend myself.
I'd be willing to lynch either of them.
And now as to why you shouldn't vote against me, I think the reason I came back to the center of attention is because the question I asked you which I thought you didn't answer properly by the way, and I don't really know why that question seems so indicative of mafia play in people's minds. I basically wanted to know how you would have acted in that situation, I thought it would give me insight into your play style, I still don't understand what was wrong with it. Nor would I ever see a mafia asking "how to be more town?" in a thread like this, it's pretty silly to me that people think a mafia could slip up that way.
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And I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on Sweetfrost and Tamburini.
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Nothing is going on. Early sleep for me.
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Okay, so I've read through some more.
@Sweetfrost/Ritoky
yes, I understand a gut read is something that people won't be behind. But I feel as if his reads are too good. Like perfect information good. And call me paranoid, cause I probably am. But it's scary how I pretty much agree with each of his reads, and yet he hasn't contributed much to the conversation until now with his interaction with Yell0w.
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On April 30 2014 10:08 Yell0w wrote:
I'd be willing to lynch either of them.
Yet you're not even taking the effortless action of voting for them, let alone putting in the legwork to build a case on them.
Come on, guys, this dude is obviously mafia. He's not even trying to catch any scum. He has no answers for the questions that matter ("Why aren't you trying to find scum?"), only incoherent responses (the bulk of his posts in response to me haven't actually addressed the points I've made), non-responses (see the bit I quoted earlier and called "not even wrong"), and half-baked doubt to spread about half the town.
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Catching up a little now before a late dinner and later bedtime 
@27ninjabunnies on Eden (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/447955-newbie-mini-mafia-lv?page=20#393)
This isn't too important but it should be a quick clarification so I'd appreciate it if you did.
Eden says you didn't fully answer his question ("What was your reaction test, and what did it teach you about the game state?")
+ Show Spoiler +On April 29 2014 11:55 Eden1892 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2014 11:47 27ninjabunnies wrote:On April 29 2014 11:42 Eden1892 wrote:On April 29 2014 11:40 27ninjabunnies wrote:
@Eden: Reaction testing: yes. Cunning: absolutely. Am I rescinding? No. So what did you learn from this? As I stated earlier, I don't like how he reacted. He claimed mafia, which yeah, I get seems trolly. And sure he may be town, but I've played games where a person has claimed mafia, even voted on themselves, and has lived til final mafia and won as mafia. So as of now, I don't like Yell0w, and until he proves otherwise, I'm keeping my vote on him. What did you learn from this? That you're new to forum mafia and have a chip on your shoulder. This doesn't tell me anything about either of your alignments. You seem genuine enough so far, so I suppose it's not all bad. But you didn't really answer my question. Maybe we're not referring to the same thing. What was your reaction test, and what did it teach you about the game state?
I think these are the only posts you made between Eden raising the point (that you didn't answer his question) and him giving you a townread:
(1) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/447955-newbie-mini-mafia-lv?page=14#277
(2) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/447955-newbie-mini-mafia-lv?page=14#280
(3) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/447955-newbie-mini-mafia-lv?page=15#283
I think these posts answered the first part (what was your reaction test?). I don't feel you answered the second part (what did it teach you about the game state?). If you did, could you just quote it and bold the language for me?
As an aside, I think your post @Epishade was directed to Epishade, not Eden as you said here (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/447955-newbie-mini-mafia-lv?page=20#393) unless I'm misunderstanding... thew post begins with you answering Epishade's scumread. Were you referring to another post?
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@yellow: Regarding your opinion on mtamburini, it may just be a difference of opinion. But you were highly defensive and highly concerned with appearance. And I think it is very right that you are pressured heavily based on that fact.
Regarding what you said about sqrt, I could not agree more with "he did seem to be trying to start conversations when there wasn't one, I just don't think he was doing anything when there was one". And in my mind he just did it again. He said there is nothing going on when you and I were clearly interacting. He just seems to be waiting for everyone else to play the game so that he can pick the winning side. Again, maybe it's a stylistic thing cuz basically nothing he says seems town to me so far, but I just can't find any reason to put him on the good side of the tracks
Regarding Epishade, of course we are going to disagree. He came in to defend and deflect for you, that's how I got my scum read on him; but I understand that is the same exact reason why you read him town.
I don't really like your scum reads, as I think I have made it clear multiple times I don't read scum on tamburini and I feel that his play thus far, if he is scum, will lead to his own demise. Sweetfrost, after reading his filter, seems to me to be someone who didn't like the direction of the game, and when he saw me doing something different than what was going on got behind it. To me it is either a townie who has similar concerns as me or a mafia trying to dig deep in my pockets early. I can't really say I have enough info to call him mafia, so for now he is more townie.
I personally don't see tamburini's lynch or sweetfrost's lynch as better than yours currently.
Barring some other evidence the 4 people I am most comfortable lynching as of now are epishade, yell0w, sqrt, and mysterymeat (in somewhat close to that order).
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@bunnies: i think i have been contributing...
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Sorry I got a call from my parents so I idled, I've still got some more posts in me tonight though :D
@ninjabunnies re: Eden (pt 2)
I did find the post where you were speaking to Epishade but meant to write to Eden. But, that isn't relevant to me because you made that post after Eden said you were his top town.
@sqrt re: number of mafia
Yeah, I can’t be certain but I think it’s a fair assumption to imagine there’s likely 3- 4 mafia. Your newbie game hosted by Balla was 9 players (2 mafia), but this is 13 players. With more town, you’ll (usually) see more scum to keep the game balanced.
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@Eden
I answered all of your points in either my response to you or in other posts, restating your points again doesn't mean I have to answer again, actually counter-argue my arguments and I might reply to you, please don't just link to another logical fallacy without saying anything.
@ritoky
Regarding tamburini, I just want to make sure you're not reading him as not scummy just because you think that, if he is, he will slip up later. He hasn't been leading town, has been barely active at all yet he claimed town leader. So I don't know what more you want, it's very suspicious to me, he could just keep acting this way, when will you start thinking he's mafia?
I just feel right now I became the center of attention because of one small sarcastic comment I made before any real discussion started and stayed there since then, so I'm the obvious lynch, both for townies and for scums, and that worries me.
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EPT
